Harthon

[Guest Paul]

I have the iPad with Kindle app so ideal for nice pictures.

Back on topic Paul, what are the mechanics of such a deal like this Harthon deal? Licensing, royalties etc, who gets what? I did hear one party bought the Harthon masters?

Hello Chalky

In the past Weldon did the Harthon license deals on behalf of him, John and Luther. John and Luther were the actual founders of Harthon and they were okay about Weldon doing the deals.

Since Weldon died I account direct to John for him and Luther.

I know Weldon assigned some rights in a few tracks to other parties - someone in New York said Weldon sold him a share in a couple of songs (or masters) by The Larks. If that's the case, and I don't doubt it, they will get a pro-rata portion of the total royalties for one or two tracks.

It won't amount to much for anyone when shared out but that's the nature of the business these days when sales figures are so low and dealer prices are also lower now. You'll find HMV and Amazon will sell this album for only £8.99 or so (including shipping) which is cheap for 28 tracks ...but great value for buyersof course.

It's as if almost everything is straight to mid-price these days, especially music and books.

Paul

[boba]

I know Weldon assigned some rights in a few tracks to other parties - someone in New York said Weldon sold him a share in a couple of songs (or masters) by The Larks. If that's the case, and I don't doubt it, they will get a pro-rata portion of the total royalties for one or two tracks.

which Larks tracks are you talking about? Because the Larks "I want her to love me" on Guyden is actually licensed in from local Ohio label Violet, it's the ohio group. Irma and the Larks / Four Larks were from Philly, what's confusing is that they also have a record as the Larks on Guyden from close to the same time.

[Chalky]

Hello Chalky

In the past Weldon did the Harthon license deals on behalf of him, John and Luther. John and Luther were the actual founders of Harthon and they were okay about Weldon doing the deals.

Since Weldon died I account direct to John for him and Luther.

I know Weldon assigned some rights in a few tracks to other parties - someone in New York said Weldon sold him a share in a couple of songs (or masters) by The Larks. If that's the case, and I don't doubt it, they will get a pro-rata portion of the total royalties for one or two tracks.

It won't amount to much for anyone when shared out but that's the nature of the business these days when sales figures are so low and dealer prices are also lower now. You'll find HMV and Amazon will sell this album for only £8.99 or so (including shipping) which is cheap for 28 tracks ...but great value for buyersof course.

It's as if almost everything is straight to mid-price these days, especially music and books.

Paul

So the likes of Eddie Holman and Jesse James will more than likely get next to nothing? Who sorts their royalties, the publishing company or John and Luther?

[Guest Paul]

So the likes of Eddie Holman and Jesse James will more than likely get next to nothing? Who sorts their royalties, the publishing company or John and Luther?

Hello,

Writers should at least get their writer shares and also a split of mechanicals if they have a deal or a relationship with Harthon.

But, if not, I can certainly look into accounting to Eddie Holman and James Solomon because Holman, for example, co-wrote 11 of the 28 songs. I don't think John would object to that.

Americans are amazed when UK labels cram 28 tracks onto one mid-price album because it means the value of the individual shares are so very small.

Paul

[boba]

This is almost impossible to do from the UK since it's already very difficult to track down the artists from within the US, but the numero group will almost only work with music where they have tracked down most of the artists, and they make deals with the publisher to pay the writers share directly to the artist (or whoever wrote the songs). Recently there was an awesome 80s detroit record I was trying to get them to reissue (not anyone's northern track btw). They could do it totally legally via the producer and publisher. But they wouldn't do it because the artist was some sort of recluse that didn't return phone calls or respond to letters.

Edited February 27, 2012 by boba

[Chalky]

How much does a license for one of these 45's cost and for a 28 track cd? Hope you don;t mind me asking, just curious as are many others. There are a lot of rumours around about some UK re-issue labels and most not good if you know what I mean.

[Chalky]

This is almost impossible to do from the UK since it's already very difficult to track down the artists from within the US, but the numero group will almost only work with music where they have tracked down most of the artists, and they make deals with the publisher to pay the writers share directly to the artist. Recently there was an awesome 80s detroit record I was trying to get them to reissue (not anyone's northern track btw). They could do it totally legally via the producer and publisher. But they wouldn't do it because the artist was some sort of recluse that didn't return phone calls or respond to letters.

But many of those involved at Harton are by and large contactable, Holman, James etc. As Paul said Eddie Holman has writing credits on 11 of the tracks involved. I can imagine other labels being far more difficult to ensure those involved get their royalties.

[Guest Paul]

which Larks tracks are you talking about? Because the Larks "I want her to love me" on Guyden is actually licensed in from local Ohio label Violet, it's the ohio group. Irma and the Larks / Four Larks were from Philly, what's confusing is that they also have a record as the Larks on Guyden from close to the same time.

Hello Bob,

It wasn't any of those tracks, these are Harthon things that were leased to Tower in 1967.

Paul

[boba]

Hello Bob,

It wasn't any of those tracks, these are Harthon things that were leased to Tower in 1967.

Paul

you're talking about the four larks recordings I guess

[Guest Paul]

How much does a license for one of these 45's cost and for a 28 track cd? Hope you don;t mind me asking, just curious as are many others. There are a lot of rumours around about some UK re-issue labels and most not good if you know what I mean.

Hello

Licensing costs vary but typical rates are royalties at 20% of net dealer price, sometimes a bit less and sometimes a bit more. Advances are usually calculated from a prediction / estimate of sales but advances are negotiable and often end up being much higher than what the royalties would accrue to.

But unless someone has a very high selling single or every track on a successful 28-track compilation they aren't going to earn much. The market just isn't big enough.

For many people that sometimes means it isn't worth doing a deal. And imagine what it's like for a group which, for example, has five or six members. Their earnings have to be shared out.

That's why Shimmy Marcus featured 'All Of My Life' by Detroit Soul twice in the Soulboy movie. It was a very nice gesture so he could pay two fees because he knew there was six people to share the money ...seven people if you count my commission!

But they all agreed to it in the end, they all got a payment and they enjoyed the activity.

They got quite excited about it but I thought it was important not to build their hopes up because that would be cruel. I've heard of some artists expecting to get rich because they have a popular oldie on the northern soul scene.

Paul

[Chalky]

I've heard some myself think they will get rich when at the end of the day it will in reality amount to a few quid.

[Guest the fifer]

If they make a few quid great if they make a decent amount even better. But i'm sure they will enjoy the recognition as well.

They certainly don't make a bean on the back of sales of second hand 45's do they?

Derek

[Chalky]

If they make a few quid great if they make a decent amount even better. But i'm sure they will enjoy the recognition as well.

They certainly don't make a bean on the back of sales of second hand 45's do they?

Derek

Those I have had contact with do enjoy the recognition and you are right it is great if they get a few quid. Some are also aware of their material used without permission as well, that is why I was interested in the mechanics and how it worked out and who got what. Some of these re-issue labels apparently use loop holes in other countries to avoid some payments and there are plenty of rumours around about dodgy practices by some. I doubt one of the singers involved get a penny if they have no writing or production credits etc?

This site has had such discussions lately and this topic seemed a good way to see how it worked with Harthon being a well known name and those involved still about. I also said that I'd heard one party had bought the masters and wondered who would then get the money or if any money would have to be paid if you owned the masters?

[KevH]

Thanks Phil,

I didn't know if you were still involved with Soul City then and I had no reason to ask Weldon about it.

Paul

Who's in charge of the Soul City recent releases?

[Shinehead]

Great threat by the way

[boba]

I doubt one of the singers involved get a penny if they have no writing or production credits etc?

This is generally true, artists are given an advance initially that needs to be recouped in order to get paid master royalties. It almost never happens and is very difficult to prove if you're the artist.

Some countries actually have different performing rights society rules where they will actually pay mechanicals not just to the writers but also to the artist and even musicians who performed on the record.

[Guest Paul]

The building on the right was once the office for Dynodynamics Productions.

Bobby Eli said he remembered painting the inside walls.

It looks a lot like Middlesbrough to me.

5947 Chestnut Ave

[Guest JIM BARRY]

The building on the right was once the office for Dynodynamics Productions.

Bobby Eli said he remembered painting the inside walls.

It looks a lot like Middlesbrough to me.

5947 Chestnut Ave

what a superb thread this is!!!.....the part of our culture that makes it so interesting....history.

[Guest Dave Turner]

Paul, not being picky mate but isn't it Chestnut St ( not Ave ) ?

Sometimes for amusement I go onto Google maps and look up label or studio adresses. Often they're not there now but always interesting to get a street view.

Don't know if this will work so here goes

https://maps.google.c...ved=0CD8Q8gEwAA

Ah, you'll have to click on the piccy to the left and rotate it round a bit

Edited February 27, 2012 by Dave Turner

[Goldsoul]

Who's in charge of the Soul City recent releases?

No one! The reactivated Soul City logo was(as Phil D says) issued in 1999. The first wave of releases were deleted by 2003. The second batch SC140-160 hit the shelves in 04.

The label ceased to be in 07.

[Chalky]

Paul, not being picky mate but isn't it Chestnut St ( not Ave ) ?

Sometimes for amusement I go onto Google maps and look up label or studio adresses. Often they're not there now but always interesting to get a street view.

Don't know if this will work so here goes

https://maps.google.c...ved=0CD8Q8gEwAA

Ah, you'll have to click on the piccy to the left and rotate it round a bit

Hers's the google maps screen shot....looks a bit rough in that neighborhood.....

[Chalky]

and from the opposite corner.....

[Guest Paul]

Paul, not being picky mate but isn't it Chestnut St ( not Ave ) ?

Sometimes for amusement I go onto Google maps and look up label or studio adresses. Often they're not there now but always interesting to get a street view.

Don't know if this will work so here goes

https://maps.google.c...ved=0CD8Q8gEwAA

Ah, you'll have to click on the piccy to the left and rotate it round a bit

Hello Dave

Yes it's known as Chestnut Street but the 1964 corporate documents for Dynodynamics listed it as Chestnut Avenue for some reason.

Paul

[Md Records]

Had it confirmed that the lyrics for "Honey Please Stay" were written by the "Barons Of Soul" and that they, and not the "United Four"recorded it. I'm sure that the two surviving members of the group - Robert Irvin and James Wagstaff will be pleasedthat their song has finally been released,even though credited to somebody else.

Des

[Guest Paul]

Had it confirmed that the lyrics for "Honey Please Stay" were written by the "Barons Of Soul" and that they, and not the "United Four"recorded it. I'm sure that the two surviving members of the group - Robert Irvin and James Wagstaff will be pleasedthat their song has finally been released,even though credited to somebody else.

Des

Thanks a lot, Des.

I'll note that and will pass info onto Outta Sight / Passion.

It makes me think we should have had a Harthon thread like this before the album was compiled.

Much appreciated,

Paul

[Goldsoul]

For the record, Weldon Mcdougall licensed the catalogue many times starting with John Anderson/Bernie Binnick in 1975. Goldmine/Soul Supply had the UK rights for well over 10 years from 1991. I would suspect a fair few other deals were done by WM too.

Edited February 27, 2012 by The Golden 101

[boba]

Thanks a lot, Des.

I'll note that and will pass info onto Outta Sight / Passion.

It makes me think we should have had a Harthon thread like this before the album was compiled.

Much appreciated,

Paul

you should hand-correct all the labels. that always makes it cooler anyways, like more DIY.

[Dennisoul]

Apologies if I am a bit out of touch with things, but I think I'm correct in saying that about 10 years ago, there were 2 versions of the Jesse James 'Love Is Alright' being played out - the one Butch had (brilliant ) and the one Kenny Burrell was playing (same backing - crap vocal ). Which is this? Also, about 2000/2001, the Butch one came out on Soul City - was that legit or a boot?

Hi Mark....I thought I'd read on SS the one that Butch played/plays was the Volcanos?....probably wrong, but defo the best version by a mile.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Dennisoul

[Chalky]

Hi Mark....I thought I'd read on SS the one that Butch played/plays was the Volcanos?....probably wrong, but defo the best version by a mile.

Sorry if already answered but Butch covered it up as the Volcanoes.

[Dennisoul]

Sorry if already answered but Butch covered it up as the Volcanoes.

Cheers Chalky

[United 4 Carl]

Greetings to everyone in this noble group. I want to introduce myself as Orlando Gibson and I am the only living child/son of Paul Carl Gibson Sr. who was a member of the United Four from Chester, PA in the 60's. He and his first cousin George Harris, both currently still alive. I have been researching my fathers music career and learned that he used the pseudonym Carl Lanfield while working with Harthon Records. This was confirmed with a search of the Library of Congress under his stage name attatched to 4 songs that he was credited as writer/composure on with Vivian McDougal and one with Weldon. However, when I checked BMI the songs are fully registered but he has never recieved a IPI# to recieve royalties, probably because the publishers and label used his stage name for copyright and BMI. My family are working to amend this so that my father and cousin along with the families of the other members of the United Four can recieve their due recognition as the in-house sound of Harthon that catapulted the label. I have heard of the visit and audition at Hitsville and that the split between United Four and Harthon since a child from my father's and mother's mouths. I have corresponded with Dave Moore who contacted my first cousin Carmen a few years ago seeking to interview my father and cousin George for his book. He was able to help me understand deeper the significance of the United Four to the evolution of the classic Philly Soul sound. I have also corresponded with Eddie Holman and he was able to speak with my father after 50 years. United Four were pre Philadelphia International and if you listen closely you will hear the difference in the Larks sound prior to Harthon and post 1967 when Vivian McDougal (wife of Weldon A. McDougal) of the United Four joined her husbands band transforming The Larks into the Four Larks circa 1967-1969. Apparently nothing else is known about my fathers group after the Motown trip. However, "Carl Lanfield" is credited on a Chantlers song entitled "In The Beginning" (1970) released by the local Chester, PA label Ches-Love post United Four. Weldon got hired by Berry Gordy and the United Four exited the historic stage. 

Currently, my father is 86 years old, living with my cousin in Wilmington, Delaware suffereing from dementia and George Harris is still pretty active and living in Chester, Pennsylvania today. I discovered this thread seeking more answers and I must say that this had been an educational read, very informative. 

Thanks

Email: gullahchiefajamu@gmail.com

[Dave Moore]

1 hour ago, United 4 Carl said:

Greetings to everyone in this noble group. I want to introduce myself as Orlando Gibson and I am the only living child/son of Paul Carl Gibson Sr. who was a member of the United Four from Chester, PA in the 60's. He and his first cousin George Harris, both currently still alive. I have been researching my fathers music career and learned that he used the pseudonym Carl Lanfield while working with Harthon Records. This was confirmed with a search of the Library of Congress under his stage name attatched to 4 songs that he was credited as writer/composure on with Vivian McDougal and one with Weldon. However, when I checked BMI the songs are fully registered but he has never recieved a IPI# to recieve royalties, probably because the publishers and label used his stage name for copyright and BMI. My family are working to amend this so that my father and cousin along with the families of the other members of the United Four can recieve their due recognition as the in-house sound of Harthon that catapulted the label. I have heard of the visit and audition at Hitsville and that the split between United Four and Harthon since a child from my father's and mother's mouths. I have corresponded with Dave Moore who contacted my first cousin Carmen a few years ago seeking to interview my father and cousin George for his book. He was able to help me understand deeper the significance of the United Four to the evolution of the classic Philly Soul sound. I have also corresponded with Eddie Holman and he was able to speak with my father after 50 years. United Four were pre Philadelphia International and if you listen closely you will hear the difference in the Larks sound prior to Harthon and post 1967 when Vivian McDougal (wife of Weldon A. McDougal) of the United Four joined her husbands band transforming The Larks into the Four Larks circa 1967-1969. Apparently nothing else is known about my fathers group after the Motown trip. However, "Carl Lanfield" is credited on a Chantlers song entitled "In The Beginning" (1970) released by the local Chester, PA label Ches-Love post United Four. Weldon got hired by Berry Gordy and the United Four exited the historic stage. 

Currently, my father is 86 years old, living with my cousin in Wilmington, Delaware suffereing from dementia and George Harris is still pretty active and living in Chester, Pennsylvania today. I discovered this thread seeking more answers and I must say that this had been an educational read, very informative. 

Thanks

Email: gullahchiefajamu@gmail.com

Hey hey!

Welcome to Soul-Source Orlando. I'm sure there will be lots of people on here that can answer your questions about your quest to ensure that your Dad and George get their due recognition.  Please pass on all our best wishes to them both and to Carmen of course!  

Regards,

Dave Moore

 

[United 4 Carl]

Just now, Dave Moore said:

Hey hey!

Welcome to Soul-Source Orlando. I'm sure there will be lots of people on here that can answer your questions about your quest to ensure that your Dad and George get their due recognition.  Please pass on all our best wishes to them both and to Carmen of course!  

Regards,

Dave Moore

 

Hey Dave, thanks alot! I recently sent you a message on Facebook messenger to reconnect. I have a far better understanding having spoken to my father, George, and a third member. I was looking for my fathers legal name all this time only to find that his pseudonym is Carl Lansfield. I went and looked everything up and found that he is right there on the he is on the album covers as C. Lanfield with V. Mcdougal and others. I would love to speak with you soon.