Soul16 Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 As we all know, there is an abundance of newly pressed bootleg/re-issue/counterfeit 45s for sale on eBay. Although I'm only a small-time collector and not a DJ, I fully subscribe to the eleventh commandment: 'Thou shalt not play bootleg or reissue recordings for financial gain or public adoration' (Amongst a few others, exceptions to this rule would be KENT 45s, Frank Wilson TMG1170 and possibly Grapevine 45s) I'm sure that every self-respecting DJ feels much the same way about only playing original 45s. So, on the assumption that these records they aren't being 'played out', (they usually sound poor anyway) What is their purpose? Home Jukebox Fillers? Are people simply unaware of what they're buying? Being able to show off your 'Northern' vinyl collection? A (doubtful) financial investment? You only have to look on eBay to see that these new bootlegs sell very well indeed and there is a good profit to be made from them. But who on earth is buying them and why is there a demand for them? Most of them are available on CD compilations and probably - God forbid - available for illegal internet download too. In the mid 1970's, there were no CDs and no Internet, so the only way most of us mere mortals could obtain these records (other than on muffled-sounding cassette tape compilations) were on bootlegged records - It made much more sense then, but we're well into the 21st Century now. Surely it would be simpler, more convenient and cost-effective to buy yourself a nice quality CD that you can transfer to your iPod and also listen to in the car. These days I only buy original 45s (when I can afford it) and own hundreds of legal CD compilations - I just can't see the point in buying vinyl boots anymore, it just doesn't seem necessary in the digital age. Is it just me??
Kris Holmes Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 place savers until one finds an original.....
Guest allnightandy Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 The old boots seem to still bring a fair price but the new ones especially the double sided ones look s*ite and the bootlegers are lazy their labels are getting worse even though the technology to reproduce them has never been better
Soul16 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Posted February 21, 2012 place savers until one finds an original..... Good thought. I've never gone about collecting that way though, I just keep saving and dreaming!
bro Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 is it just the vinyl thing for the young dudes ? playing it on vinyl tops cd's all day long {unless its a totally shit recording !) im not trying to stick up for the bootleggers i hate trawling through ebay past all the boots ,but someones buying them else they wouldn't be makin em ? i bought plenty in the 80's when starting on the scene and played them all to death ,a handfull i bought the originals the rest i got board with ! and a few like eddie parker still dreaming about . they do have a place but its very tough to police them ,i think more people who are not happy with it are best to shop them to ebay or the vinyl police !!!
Steve L Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Good question but I'm not sure we'll ever find the answer. No one would admit to buying em on here would they?
Kris Holmes Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 i do from time to time, just out of laziness more than anything
Dekka Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I agree with the 11th commandment, but try telling that to some people and you get vicious rantings and foul language. I have Gerri Hall - who can I run to - grapevine (a place filler) you may say I but would love the original on Hotline. Needless to say I would never play it out at a serious soul night. I have picked up various boots, reissues, carvers etc along the way but they are just to enjoy at home.
Guest sharmo 1 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Hi there we're back to an almost ancient debate here and weather you buy them or not they are a part of both northern soul and other collecting scenes.There are a great many people who do buy records under a tenner and "don't care if there a pressing or not" and there is a profound sence of financal logic behind this practice as mentioned earlier " I'm gone " is a great example of an impossibly rare record that's desired by many but owned by a few .I stock loads of reissues and have made a very big promise to my self not to knowingly sell bootleg's , the reissues that we sell do sell very well and there are a great many people who alway's buy them as they emerge into the market place .Some of these are very seasoned collectors who are "letting the odd thing go " and replacing an original for a reissue , however with these company's such as Tramp records and Jazzman's reissue seres all right's have been reserched and paid to the rightful owners of the music and the sound and manufactoring quality is second to none so I supose the answer is simply it's up to the choice , moral judgement and finace's of the individual regards Simon.
Guest MissHongkongfuey Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I'll happily admit to buying a few, which as Kris said became "place savers" for the originals in later years, At the time, I just didn't have a clue! Most of those were passed on to my Nephew, who is now really enjoying the scene and has started buying the originals Himself. I have sold the rest via private sales on ebay lol (No one wants to be the subject of "comedy sale of the day") I've kept a couple like Chris Clark - Somethings Wrong and Otis - Loving By The Pound but the rest are in the "dodgy box" waiting to be passed on. What I do find really strange are the boots of tracks that are really quite inexpensive to buy in their original form anyway. I could understand if it was seriously rare and rediculously pricey but why boot a £30-£40 record??? I paid £4 for a boot of Berts Apple Crumble many many years ago. When selling it on, I made sure the add was honest and not misleading in anyway and it still sold for nearly £50 ffs!! I think alot of folks especially young or non serious collectors just don't know how to source the info they need to aquire the best for their bucks. I just ask now! I still get stung now over the odd track but not as badly as before. I'm happy to admit that I buy the odd carver....It's never gonna be played out. I feel no shame in admitting that I can't and never will be able to afford the real deal but have still taken great pleasure from playing it here and rolling out the lino......
soulmaster Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 LOTS OF RARE STUFF GETS PRESSED, BUT THE QUESTION IS WHERE DO THE PEOPLE PRESSING THEM GET THERE RECORDING FROM TO PRESS IT? IF A DJ HAS A PRIZE RECORD AND THERE ARE ONLY A COUPLE OF COPYS AND THEY DON'T WANT IT PRESSED THEN DON'T LET ANYBODY HAVE A COPY OF THE RECORDING. I FOR ONE AM GLAD SOME OF THE RARE STUFF DOES GET PRESSED, I WOULD HATE TO THINK THAT SOMEONE IS SITTING ON A VERY RARE RECORD WHICH WOULD BE A MONSTER IF PLAYED OUT BUT NOBODY KNEW IT. WOULD WE ALL BE HAPPY TO HAVE MISSED RECORDS LIKE THE NU RONS, DAMON FOX, CASHMERES ETC ETC IF THERE WERE ONLY A COUPLE OF COPYS IN COLLECTIONS NEVER PLAYED OUT, I KNOW YOU DON'T MISS WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW BUT WHAT IS THERE OUT THERE IN COLLECTION UNKNOWN, MAKES YOU THINK DON'T IT, WELL IT DOES ME.
Ernie Andrews Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I have bought some old boots in the past so my daughter can ruin them rather than my originals. Another reason is as stated before involves an old debate and one which I parrot fashion spout! "So DJs who cant cut it or have no idea about developing their skills can have their 15 minutes of fame" Thats why they buy boots of top sounds.
Soul-slider Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 So what if they are previously unissued sides? Like these..... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160739706147?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 1
Steve G Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 As we all know, there is an abundance of newly pressed bootleg/re-issue/counterfeit 45s for sale on eBay. (Amongst a few others, exceptions to this rule would be KENT 45s, Frank Wilson TMG1170 and possibly Grapevine 45s) How interesting that the northern scene now talks regularly about bootlegs and legitimate reissues in the same sentence. World of difference IMHO, and whilst I wouldn't DJ in a northern / rare soul club with either, I'd quite happily play legit reissues or first issues in my home if I didn't have the original. 1
John A Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 is it just the vinyl thing for the young dudes ? playing it on vinyl tops cd's all day long {unless its a totally shit recording !) im not trying to stick up for the bootleggers i hate trawling through ebay past all the boots ,but someones buying them else they wouldn't be makin em ? i bought plenty in the 80's when starting on the scene and played them all to death ,a handfull i bought the originals the rest i got board with ! and a few like eddie parker still dreaming about . they do have a place but its very tough to police them ,i think more people who are not happy with it are best to shop them to ebay or the vinyl police !!! I can't go with this, If I aint got a real one then I might just as well listen to it on youtube if all I do is wanna hear it. I completely agree with the original poster. 2
Soul16 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 So what if they are previously unissued sides? Like these..... https://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1497.l2649 That could be considered acceptable by some DJs I guess. The examples I'm really referring to are these sort of things: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-NORTHERN-MOTOWN-MARTHA-REEVES-NO-ONE-THERE-press-/160744121877?pt=UK_Records&hash=item256d18a615 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-PAUL-ANKA-I-CANT-HELP-LOVING-YOU-OOTP-Pressing-/160740600079?pt=UK_Records&hash=item256ce2e90f They must be knocking these things out 24 hours a day, there's loads of the things - it's cashing-in big time, that's for sure. As for this - words fail me: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120862971167?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 I'm going for a lie down before I blow a gasket...
Harry Crosby Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 So what if they are previously unissued sides? Like these..... https://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1497.l2649 If you have the time read thru the other 300, 0000 threads on here regarding this sort of thing you may find the answer
Mick Sway Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Boots have been about since about 1970. The earliest ones that I recall were the Soul Sounds series, followed by Out Of The Past (OOTP). I seem to recall that the guy responsible for the former was locked up for his part in the scam. Though it now seems naive, half the time in the early 1970's I didn't know that I was buying boots. Truth to tell though I have been shocked by the sheer scale of booting on ebay, I am surprised that record companies don't go after them when they're so quick to lock the illegal down loaders up. Arguments have raged for decades over the affect of legit UK issues, there were many articles in Blues & Soul and Echoes in the 70's & 80's relating to this. Personally I have no problem with them as long as the writers and artists estates get their dues, time has proven that it rarely affects the value of originals. Kent, Soul City and Hayley must have done some good on that score. It is time though that the contemporary scammers were hammered. Interesting post. Thanks Mick P.S what is the status of Outta Sight records - is this a legitimate re-issue company, does anyone know?
Paul Shirley Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Boots have been about since about 1970. The earliest ones that I recall were the Soul Sounds series, followed by Out Of The Past (OOTP). I seem to recall that the guy responsible for the former was locked up for his part in the scam. Though it now seems naive, half the time in the early 1970's I didn't know that I was buying boots. Truth to tell though I have been shocked by the sheer scale of booting on ebay, I am surprised that record companies don't go after them when they're so quick to lock the illegal down loaders up. Arguments have raged for decades over the affect of legit UK issues, there were many articles in Blues & Soul and Echoes in the 70's & 80's relating to this. Personally I have no problem with them as long as the writers and artists estates get their dues, time has proven that it rarely affects the value of originals. Kent, Soul City and Hayley must have done some good on that score. It is time though that the contemporary scammers were hammered. Interesting post. Thanks Mick P.S what is the status of Outta Sight records - is this a legitimate re-issue company, does anyone know? i decided to get in touch with the ebay seller regarding the robert tanner 45 .i asked him did he have the rights to reproduce a copy of the original and sell it ? he tried to say he didnt understand what i wanted to know .so i said its simple my friend do you have the original label owners permission to sell this copy for £9 or whatever it was . to my surprise the bloke sent me a message saying ....no 1
Kris Holmes Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 There are also some instances where the sound quality on the reissue is better than an original, so i'll have both, keep an original filed at home but play the reissue.
Johnlloyd Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 There's A boot of Timi Yuro - INBOFM selling for £11 I could never afford the UK Liberty 45, but recently bought the UK lp in near mint condition for £6. It contains the afformentioned plus many other gems. Why buy the boot? John 1
Soul16 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 P.S what is the status of Outta Sight records - is this a legitimate re-issue company, does anyone know? Outta Sight has its roots in the Joe Boy label as far as I'm aware.
Soul-slider Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Outta Sight has its roots in the Joe Boy label as far as I'm aware. That particular 45 by the united Four sounds good, Outta Sight have also released The Dynamics' brilliant 'The Girls Got Soul' for the first time on vinyl. I don't mind buying these kind of releases if they are legit and previously unavailable. 1
Guest Paul Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) It's dangerous to confuse bootlegs, pirates and counterfeits with legitimate issues and reissues. But I can understand the confusion because some alleged bootleggers (or sellers of bootlegs) have issued or sold some legitimate singles recently and, on the other hand, some genuine companies (such as Outta Sight) have issued legitimate singles in "repro" label styles. And, to make things even more complicated, a few companies which are generally considered to be genuine have been known (or suspected) to have issued some singles without any rights from time to time. But most of the confusion is caused by reissues of singles with repro label styles. Ebay is full of them (it has been for years) and most are very obviously bootlegs but at least a few (a small portion) seem to be legitimate reissues, as far as I know... such as Parliaments, World Column and Ruby Andrews for example. It's unfortunate that some people confuse the repro style singles issued by Outta Sight with bootlegs. Outta Sight is a genuine company, run by Glenn Gunton and distributed by Passion. Although they issue 45s with label artwork which emulates original US issues, they also feature the Outta Sight logo, have an OSV prefix catalogue number and credit the licensors and publishers etc. It's important to read the small print. Paul Edited February 22, 2012 by Paul
Paul Shirley Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 That particular 45 by the united Four sounds good, Outta Sight have also released The Dynamics' brilliant 'The Girls Got Soul' for the first time on vinyl. I don't mind buying these kind of releases if they are legit and previously unavailable. PLEASE READ ....POST 19
Paul Shirley Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) It's dangerous to confuse bootlegs, pirates and counterfeits with legitimate issues and reissues. But I can understand the confusion because some alleged bootleggers (or sellers of bootlegs) have issued or sold some legitimate singles recently and, on the other hand, some genuine companies (such as Outta Sight) have issued legitimate singles in "repro" label styles. And, to make things even more complicated, a few companies which are generally considered to be genuine have been known (or suspected) to have issued some singles without any rights from time to time. But most of the confusion is caused by reissues of singles with repro label styles. Ebay is full of them (it has been for years) and most are very obviously bootlegs but at least a few (a small portion) seem to be legitimate reissues, as far as I know... such as Parliaments, World Column and Ruby Andrews for example. It's unfortunate that some people confuse the repro style singles issued by Outta Sight with bootlegs. Outta Sight is a genuine company, run by Glenn Genton and distributed by Passion. Although they issue 45s with label artwork which emulates original US issues, they also feature the Outta Sight logo, have an OSV prefix catalogue number and credit icensors and publishers etc. It's important to read the small print. Paul they would do well to have a word with some of the idiots that either buy from them or distribute for them. im meaning the ebay seller who i contacted Edited February 22, 2012 by steptoe
Guest Paul Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 they would do well to have a word with some of the idiots that either buy from them or distribute for them. im meaning the ebay seller who i contacted Hello, True, it would help but record companies can't really control what info or knowledge individual sellers have. In fact they don't always know the individual sellers because many of them buy stock from distributors and wholesalers. Some even trade stock with other sellers. Quite a few eBay sellers seem to stock both legitimate issues and bootlegs. That doesn't help. Paul
Mick Sway Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 It's dangerous to confuse bootlegs, pirates and counterfeits with legitimate issues and reissues. But I can understand the confusion because some alleged bootleggers (or sellers of bootlegs) have issued or sold some legitimate singles recently and, on the other hand, some genuine companies (such as Outta Sight) have issued legitimate singles in "repro" label styles. It's unfortunate that some people confuse the repro style singles issued by Outta Sight with bootlegs. Outta Sight is a genuine company, run by Glenn Gunton and distributed by Passion. Although they issue 45s with label artwork which emulates original US issues, they also feature the Outta Sight logo, have an OSV prefix catalogue number and credit the licensors and publishers etc. It's important to read the small print. Paul I hope that this means that the appropriate royalties have been paid etc. Regards Mick
Guest Paul Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I hope that this means that the appropriate royalties have been paid etc. Regards Mick Hello Mick, Yes it does. Paul
Soul16 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Posted February 23, 2012 How interesting that the northern scene now talks regularly about bootlegs and legitimate reissues in the same sentence. World of difference IMHO, and whilst I wouldn't DJ in a northern / rare soul club with either, I'd quite happily play legit reissues or first issues in my home if I didn't have the original. The term 're-issue' was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, because that is how some Ebay sellers refer to bootlegs - maybe I should have been clearer and written bootleg/pressing/fake/counterfeit in my original post - I hope that clears up any misunderstandings 1
Mick Sway Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Hello Mick, Yes it does. Paul Though I'm sure that it doesn't amount to much, it's nice to know that they're getting something after all these years. Nice one! Mick
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