Rare Groove / 2 Step Thread

[Guest Gary Thomas]

Good thread this and some good insight on the roots of the two-step scene in London from John Reed, Gareth and Rod. The first time I remember it being discussed at length was on the Soul 24-7 forum in 2002 on a thread that lasted 5 months! Some fairly informative posts, explaining the reggae sound system and pirate radio background to the scene, with track lists etc. There are a few inaccurate posts also (e.g. Keb's). Worth a look though and it's archived here https://web.archive.org/web/20021220151529/https://www.soul24-7.com/mb/2251.htm

[Guest Dante]

This is probably what's leading to my confusion too. My understanding of the term comes from the Dusty Groove / collector culture of the mid 90s. "Everybody loves the sunshine" as well as late-70s jazz-funk LPs with dark sounding tracks, were the essence of "rare groove". Even if the LPs were not that rare. if the scene as it happened in the UK had a different sound, that's partly why I'm confused.

I thought this, too, and I'm a little bit confused myself. I think what you think when you hear 'rare groove' is the US 90s hip-hop centric collectors? And in the Uk it was scene much like the northern scene in the 70s: youngsters going out and dancing to a specific type of music, in this case it was a mixture of black sounds very similar to what the US rare groove guys were into?

Does that make any sense?

[Steve G]

Good thread this and some good insight on the roots of the two-step scene in London from John Reed, Gareth and Rod. The first time I remember it being discussed at length was on the Soul 24-7 forum in 2002 on a thread that lasted 5 months! Some fairly informative posts, explaining the reggae sound system and pirate radio background to the scene, with track lists etc. There are a few inaccurate posts also (e.g. Keb's). Worth a look though and it's archived here https://web.archive.o...com/mb/2251.htm

Blomin'eck man, that took me back!

Good old Tony trying to tell me the Vibrations "Shake it up" not two step :lol:

Edited January 30, 2012 by Steve G

[Dean Rudland]

I thought this, too, and I'm a little bit confused myself. I think what you think when you hear 'rare groove' is the US 90s hip-hop centric collectors? And in the Uk it was scene much like the northern scene in the 70s: youngsters going out and dancing to a specific type of music, in this case it was a mixture of black sounds very similar to what the US rare groove guys were into?

Does that make any sense?

I think that the other thing to remember about rare groove is that it was a very convenient hook line / description for old funk for record companies and shops to sell. In the States for instance acid jazz became a term for new jazz dance music, which copied or were inspired by the records made on Acid Jazz, Talkin Loud and other labels, so when they wanted to sell old records that we would have termed as Acid Jazz - funky organ stuff on Prestige and Blue Note, it was easier to term these as rare grooves. Thus when I was working for Blue Note they could never get how our comps would sell by the bucket load, so they started their own 'rare groove' series to try and grab the market. This appealed to the hip hop collectors looking for breaks etc.

Just to add to the confusion because of the cross fertilisation of the non-northern soul scenes at the time, records like Roy Ayers everybody loves the sunshine could easily be classed as jazz-funk, rare groove or acid jazz.

[Guest Dante]

records like Roy Ayers everybody loves the sunshine could easily be classed as jazz-funk, rare groove or acid jazz.

I think the term jazz-funk is almost strictly a musical definition, a sub-genre like any other. On the other hand, I think of rare groove and acid jazz as music based scenes.

[Dean Rudland]

I think the term jazz-funk is almost strictly a musical definition, a sub-genre like any other. On the other hand, I think of rare groove and acid jazz as music based scenes.

I'm afraid you're wrong there. US writers almost invariably called that sort of music jazz fusion. In the UK Jazz Funk was very much a scene, which covered a certain set of DJs - The Soul Mafia - and covered a vast array of at the times contemporary styles from Japanese fusion to boogie soul. The Snowboy book mentioned earlier in the thread really covers this scene well.

[Ian Dewhirst]

I think the term jazz-funk is almost strictly a musical definition, a sub-genre like any other. On the other hand, I think of rare groove and acid jazz as music based scenes.

I concurr with Dean on this. The term Jazz-Funk sprang up around '76 and held pretty much until the end of the decade. This was a period when both Disco and Jazz-Funk dominated the UK dance-floors, with Jazz-Funk being the more 'credible' of the two terms. This was also the period when it wasn't unusual to see artists like Herbie Hancock, The Crusaders, Rodney Franklin in the UK Pop Top 30. Had you asked any of the regular club goers or all-dayer goers in the late 70's what they were into or what scene they were in, they would have said 'Jazz-Funk' without hesitation, much as a decade later they would have said 'Acid Jazz' or 'Rare Groove'.

Ian D

[Wiggyflat]

There was no defined style as acid jazz.If you listen to everything that was defined as acid jazz you would be none the wiser as to what it was.Listen to the Perry Lois interview re the split between jazz funk and jazz fusion.

[DtheD]

Regarding the two step scene, Gareth is right that it came out of the reggae/ 'blues party' scene in london, basically because the groove fitted really nicely with the downtempo 'lovers rock ' sound. By the time it got up to Manchester and Rod was selling it and i was buying it, it had become affiliated with the 'Modern soul' scene (which had slowed down in tempo massively under Richard Searlings direction) because it fitted so well with the kind of downtempo new releases that were being championed then.

[Sjclement]

https://youtu.be/gWD98kIkz68

Jazz Funk, 2-step or Rare Groove?

[Modernsoulsucks]

I was going to mention the new release connection but I thought it might complicate it even further and I can't remember any examples except for a 12" on MCA by Front Page and I've forgotten the title of that!

ROD

[Garethx]

A couple of other things which were pretty big two-steppers as new releases were Bobby Glover "Happy" on Columbia and Tyrone Brunson "In This Love Triangle" on MCA. Also The Controllers "Stay". I like the first two but not the Controllers track, which sums up my feelings towards the genre: a lot of it lacked the fire that I like in my soul music (compare the Controllers on this to the relative grit and passion of their earlier recordings on Juana).

Much of it was far too smooth for its own good and had that 'sippin' Champagne wine' aesthetic that I don't really like. An entire evening of it would be far too much for me although the odd stepper stills sounds great over a big sound system and a few two-step anthems are among my favourite records in some ways: Dee Dee Warwick "Where Is That Rainbow" (either album or 45 cut), Willie Hutch "Out There" from the Foxy Brown soundtrack, Charles Earland "Shining Bright", The 3 Pieces "If Only I Could Prove To You" and so on.

Also I really can't think of a better record of its type than Starvue's "Body Fusion", which strangely I never get bored of hearing even for the ten-thousandth time. If someone were to ask 'what is two-step?' that would be as close as definitive in capturing the flavour of the sound in its full glory.

[Steve G]

Yes agree with you on Starvue Gareth.

[Ian Dewhirst]

I was going to mention the new release connection but I thought it might complicate it even further and I can't remember any examples except for a 12" on MCA by Front Page and I've forgotten the title of that!

ROD

"Love Insurance"?

Ian D

[Modernsoulsucks]

I just googled that Ian. Bloody awful!! So no that's not it.

A bit unfair, Gareth. I admit it's lush and sophisticated like those of us who got a liking for it. DtheD is a lush and Im sophisticated. Probably explains why the majority of it is from mainstream 70's acts rather than small independents where maybe production values were lower, although always exceptions

I always preferred my northern to sound like it had a full orchestra behind it, the kitchen sink treatment, so I have no problem with the same feel as regards 2-step

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7_kDejrjNc

Hopefully clips will give Bob an idea of what we're talking about.

ROD

[Guest Nick Harrison]

https://youtu.be/gWD98kIkz68

Jazz Funk, 2-step or Rare Groove?

Defo a "stepper" a steppers soul room classic played alongside the likes of Leo Sunship "Give Me The Sunshine" and Bobby Wilson - "Deeper And Deeper", which were both recorded in the seventies, each finding a better lease of life during the eighties. .

Edited January 31, 2012 by Nick Harrison

[Steve G]

I always liked Cracksteppin' "What are we going to do with this feeling" (LP track and 45). Vocal of "The Wind" I seem to recall...

[Modernsoulsucks]

Im not sure about that Steve but Alex and I found both the "Cracksteppin" LP and Sahara 45 in a shop in Detroit E 9 Mile around '93/'94. I think Pure Pleasure too. Guy who owned the shop said he was something to do with Brooks Brothers and Sequins. He had none but took us to his mate.......... who was out of town.

Par for the course.

ROD

[DtheD]

I always liked Cracksteppin' "What are we going to do with this feeling" (LP track and 45). Vocal of "The Wind" I seem to recall...

Same backing track... the Cracksteppin of course came out on 45 as Kelli Evans and Donald Albert..

[Modernsoulsucks]

Found it on YT. So it is.Never noticed at the time.

ROD

[John Benson]

Great thread so far guys, I always like to hear a mixture of things soulful and the rare groove / two step sound is included.

I probably first came across the terms during the 80's but wasn't really sure of what sounds go with what - still not really, it's all 'just soul' to me!

As the music started to get more and more 'widespread', I started to notice DJ playlists in the mags such as Blues and Soul, Echoes etc. Some I already recognised, some I didn't - which prompted me to start digging through my collection and find them out. Of course I was pleasantly surprised when I found I'd already got quite a few, others I did find while out looking for records and picked up on the strength of the playlists and the ones I already knew and liked.

I also used to listen to the shows on Sheffield Community radio - a pirate station as I recall and did hear a lot of this played at certain times (thanks for the reminder Geordie!) I've no idea who played the music on these shows, but I did hear lots of then unknown things that I liked, along with things I used to hear Richard Searling play on his radio show in Sheffield during the early 80's.

Also I followed that thread on the Soul 24-7 forum, and attemped to compile a list of the recommendations mentioned, never did make a proper listing though, although I still have a lot of points from the thread saved.

Agreed though, these days a lot of the music from these 'scenes' seem to have crossed over into others - not a bad thing in my opinion either.

I always think if it's good, then play it, never mind the 'box' it has to go in. But I think I'm probably in a minority on that way of thinking...

I don't know how relevant this is, but I spotted someone selling some rare groove CDs on ebay last year and traced them back to most likely this site: https://www.raresoulgrooves.com/store/

There's lots of titles listed on there to go through as examples of what this is about.

Cheers!

[Ian Dewhirst]

I don't know how relevant this is, but I spotted someone selling some rare groove CDs on ebay last year and traced them back to most likely this site: https://www.raresoulgrooves.com/store/

There's lots of titles listed on there to go through as examples of what this is about.

Cheers!

Don't buy 'em though. All bootlegs!

Ian D

[Hammersoul]

Here`s a few other 2 step tracks that were big in the 80`s/early 90`s:

Never like this-The Two Tons (Aka Weather girls later on)

I love you-a Taste of Honey.

Rocking you eternally-Leon Ware.

love has come around-Wyndchymes.

I don`t wanna live without you-Platinium Hook.

Love don`t strike twice-Blackbyrds.

Superman-Barbara Blake and the Uniques(This is more Rare Groove).

Good thread

[Jordirip]

Don't buy 'em though. All bootlegs!

Ian D

It was buying those 'Midnight Music' bootleg rare groove compilations in the late 80's that got me hunting down the original records. Damn those bootlegs, they are the reason I've been skint all my life since.

Jordi

[Geeselad]

moved to london in '87 and attended rare groove night at the wag and various west end venues, along with allnighters and events on the NS scene, as an uneducated young soul boy, my perceptions of rare groove at the time were of obvious tunes such as the 'jackson sisters' and 'voices of east harlem'- 'wanted dead or alive', also the 'vibrettes' 'humpty dump', the general impression was of records that had the funkyness and feel of tunes on hot wax and invictus.

[Guest emadex]

Hey Boba wait until you come across 'jap jazz'. That was heralded by Colin Curtiss in the North and the Funk Mafia in the South both ends of the country were dancing to Hunt Up Wind Hiroshi Fukumara and many other tracks from very expensive audiophile standard japanese imports.

I remember CC starting his stint at the Ritz with Turning Japanese the punk track.

Anyone recall James Hamilton's page in the musical express were he reviewed a jap album by Kanu Sukalagwan?

I think ID produced a cd of most of the best tracks.

I remember this one so well!

James Hamilton reviewed a non-existant Japanese jazz-funk import and the whole review and artist name were full of hidden phallic references.

It was by 'Kanu Sukalagwun' which of course is simply 'Can You Suck A Large One'. The best track was supposed to be a remake of the Isaac Hayes track "Shaft" - which James described as a "...slippery spurting track..."

DJ Chris Dinnis from Boxes in Exeter was one of the first to be claiming to play it and when asked where he got it he claimed to have bought it from an obscure jazz-funk store off the Champs-°lyses (yeah right!)

James exposed the hoax when it was reported that white labelled albums were being sold as the non-existant Kanu Sukalagwun album for megabucks in London. James told me that he did the hoax to show that many DJs did indeed just list the "hip tracks" on their playlists/returns to increase their cool factor.

James also reckoned that a lot of DJs were pressured to list certain new releases on their returns due to pressure by record companies - DJs feared getting taken off the record companies mailing lists. WEA were allegedly notorious for this (anyone remember Fred Dove?)

[Scotters]

I'm a bit late looking at this thread (story of my life!) but it's interesting as lots of the tracks / artists etc listed on here, I discovered largely through buying records and CD's that were being released during the 80's & 90's when I first started working, including some superb compilations which then got me into the great addiction of hunting down more of the original 45's and LPs a few years back.

Bands like Brand New Heavies, Incognito, Young Disciples, Soul II Soul even + Compilations such as these, released late 80's early 90's are what really got me interested in learning more / delving deeper as part of my journey to now really enjoying and buying Northern Soul records....

"Rare" 1 - 5 (RCA and Arista recordings)...where I first heard the likes of Garland Green and Weldon Irvine etc.

"Urban Classics" 1 & 2 on Polydor...where I first heard the likes of Jackson Sisters - I believe in miracles / The Mob / Sweet Charles.

"Soul Chasers" 1 & 2 + "Soulsource" comps on Expansion...where I first heard the likes of Gloria Scott and Trumains etc.

"Rare Groove" and "Jazz Funk" comps etc on Mastercuts...where I first heard Leon Ware and some great Japanese bands etc.

"Moving on" and other Brit-Soul related comps over those years.

....+ loads more from the likes of Mr Dewhirst etc.

Great. I still love it when I hear something out or buy an original LP or 45 and then try to find the LP or CD compilation I first heard a particular track on all those years ago.

[Tank]

Haven't had time to check that older thread so apologies for any repetiton.

Living on an estate in London during the 80's and 90s, Blues Parties went on almost every weekend and I went to many. They always had a quota of 2-Step tunes mixed in amongst the Reggae. Many were previously ignored LP only tracks as already mentioned and included some current releases like Anita Baker 'Feel The Need', Omar 'There's Nothing Like This', Cortez 'Girl I've Been Watching You' etc. Loved those Midnight Music / RAW bootleg compilations and such was the competiton between some sound systems, some titles were even covered up (bizarre eh! ). Most imaginative for me was Starvue's 'Body Fusion' covered as 'Straight Out Of The Fat Boy's Neck'!! Bit more inventive than 'Let's Shingaling At The Go-Go'!!

Loved the night time Pirate broadcasts too where it was uninterrupted mellow stuff all night - unless the plug got pulled. Happy days.

[Steve Plumb]

Great thread this with loads of accurate info from a whole load of knowledgeable folks on here

I remember selling 'Rare Groove' to the London crowd in the mid-eighties, then 'Two Step' in the mid/late 80's well before it got any exposure in the North. Think we hadn't a clue what we were selling so we had lots of Londoners filling their boots and snaffling Jackson Sisters on Mums etc for a couple of quid

Generalising a bit here but from a Northern (geographically not musically) perspective, I think it has been said that the Richard Searling/Dean/Parkers axis (and possibly Colin Curtis@Berlin before them) lifted the best of the Two Step scene (Arnold Blair, Leroy Hutson etc) and introduced them to the 'Modern Scene' (as was) in the North in the mid/late 80's which also coincided with the early Berwick/Morecambe/Fleetwood/Southport weekenders which had folks attending from all over the UK which then caused a cross pollination of genres for many of the different Soul/Funk/Jazz/House scenes at the time (but maybe not the Northern Scene!).

Great thread

Edited March 31, 2012 by Steve Plumb

[Ncfc]

From what i remember the price of records soared when the rare groove scene started and to be honest have never come down

I remember Arthur Fenn having quite a few Timothy Wilson lps in his sales box @ £4 each a few weeks later they were going for a ton plus.

Great lp btw.

[Steve Plumb]

From what i remember the price of records soared when the rare groove scene started and to be honest have never come down

I remember Arthur Fenn having quite a few Timothy Wilson lps in his sales box @ £4 each a few weeks later they were going for a ton plus.

Great lp btw.

Hiya

It would be interesting to know who played TW first? I remember Richard making it huge in the North West, particularly at his Halfway House nights in the mid 80's? Brilliant track from an LP which seems to have always been in-demand. I remember selling a handful at £25 each in the mid 80's. Arthur must have been selling them before this i guess?

Cheers

Steve

[Ncfc]

Hiya

It would be interesting to know who played TW first? I remember Richard making it huge in the North West, particularly at his Halfway House nights in the mid 80's? Brilliant track from an LP which seems to have always been in-demand. I remember selling a handful at £25 each in the mid 80's. Arthur must have been selling them before this i guess?

Cheers

Steve

Arthur could't sell them at that price we were playing "keep it up" from the lp but the rare groove/2 step scene were playing "its love baby" and demand soared.

Dealers were rubbing their hands as prices went up and the days of the cut out lps were gone.

Lets not forget their were some great records discovered and played on the Rare Groove and 2 step scene first though.

Hope your well Steve ATB Chris Huggins.

Edited April 1, 2012 by NCFC

[Roburt]

If you lived in / near Manchester, Yanks was always the place to quickly head down to when Richard started playing a track off an old (70's / 80's) US LP.

Unfortunately I lived on the sunnier side of the hills back then (in Gods' own Yorkshire), so it was hard to make it down to that basement before more local soulies (& dealers) had cleared out all the copies of any 'newly in-demand' albums.

[Guest Nick Harrison]

Hiya

It would be interesting to know who played TW first? I remember Richard making it huge in the North West, particularly at his Halfway House nights in the mid 80's? Brilliant track from an LP which seems to have always been in-demand. I remember selling a handful at £25 each in the mid 80's. Arthur must have been selling them before this i guess?

Cheers

Steve

Yes - Steve as both Arthur Fenn and Graeme Ellis were spinning the LP before Richard, mainly for the track "It's Love Baby, as Chris mentioned in post 82.

Cheers.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Nick Harrison

[Steve Plumb]

Yes - Steve as both Arthur Fenn and Graeme Ellis were spinning the LP before Richard, mainly for the track "It's Love Baby, as Chris mentioned in post 82.

Cheers.

Hi Nick/Chris

Hope you're well chaps?

I remember folks playing the faster track (which i only thought was OK) but first came across 'It's love baby' later via RS. Much the better track imho and a total classic if ever there was one! Actually, have also heard folks play 'follow me' from the LP too!

Was lucky enough on a couple of occasions to get into Yanks on the day of a delivery.................going thru them virginal unopened boxes was heaven!

Cheers

Steve

[Modernsoulsucks]

I don't usually get too involved with the modern side of things but there seems to be some confusion here regarding Timothy Wilson.

100% sure that Richard was playing both tracks at Wigan although "Keep it up" probably featured more. That was '79 definitely cos in September of that year I picked up copies of the LP along with Bobby Thurston, Dysons Faces in a warehouse in Washington.

I knew then it was wanted for both tracks.

I got good money for it then so hard to believe Arthur was selling for £4 later. Unless of course he found multiples.

ROD

[Souljazera]

Yes he did have some at 4.00 we also had PURPLE MUNDI (CAT) for 2.00 but couldnt sell it even at 2.00...that was at Clifton Halls though !

[Steve Plumb]

I don't usually get too involved with the modern side of things but there seems to be some confusion here regarding Timothy Wilson.

100% sure that Richard was playing both tracks at Wigan although "Keep it up" probably featured more. That was '79 definitely cos in September of that year I picked up copies of the LP along with Bobby Thurston, Dysons Faces in a warehouse in Washington.

I knew then it was wanted for both tracks.

I got good money for it then so hard to believe Arthur was selling for £4 later. Unless of course he found multiples.

ROD

Hi Rod

Thanks for the info

Although i went to Wigan in the early days, i didn't go too much in 1979 so to find out 'It's love baby' was played there is a bit of a revelation to me! This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that, so I tip me hat off to you and note that 'you live and learn'

Cheers

Steve

[Guest Nick Harrison]

Hi Rod

Thanks for the info

Although i went to Wigan in the early days, i didn't go too much in 1979 so to find out 'It's love baby' was played there is a bit of a revelation to me! This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that, so I tip me hat off to you and note that 'you live and learn'

Cheers

Steve

I don't usually get too involved with the modern side of things but there seems to be some confusion here regarding Timothy Wilson.

100% sure that Richard was playing both tracks at Wigan although "Keep it up" probably featured more. That was '79 definitely cos in September of that year I picked up copies of the LP along with Bobby Thurston, Dysons Faces in a warehouse in Washington.

I knew then it was wanted for both tracks.

I got good money for it then so hard to believe Arthur was selling for £4 later. Unless of course he found multiples.

ROD

Intresting post and as RS was breaking new ground I find it even more confusing that the slower "Its Love Baby" was played because in 1978/79 the demand was on more "upbeat" seventies dancers, hence "Keep It Up".

Rod I have spent most of my nite's this week playing through CD 90 and 60 tapes and viewing playlists via fanzine's from this period with little evidence or proof that "Its Love Baby" slipped out in 79. So hats off to you and sorry if I am being the source of any indifference.

Cheers

Nick H.

[Guest Nick Harrison]

I am also of the understanding that Ethna Thornhill owned Richard's original LP copy of TW and loaned it to Graeme Ellis who played it for the steppers track "It's Love Baby" . But Hey Ho or was it Graeme giving it back to Richard to play "It's Love Baby" at the Up North Weekenders and Parkers some 10 years later.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Nick Harrison

[Modernsoulsucks]

Without Richard playing it I wouldn't have had a clue. I did know him well though so I guess he may have mentioned other track but positive he played it too.

ROD

[Guest kingprawn]

I've just noticed this thread and although its old now just thought I'd add my own thoughts.

The jazz-funk scene started in the mid-late 1970s and was primarily always centred on London and the South East (although I've heard that the music at least was also quite popular in Manchester and the North West too).

It was initially just part of the funk and soul scene but around the time of the disco boom in 1978/79 it gradually became more and more focussed on jazz-funk. Although it was centred to a large extent on Chris Hill and the soul mafia djs and was massive in the outer London suburbs (although not completely as the Brixton Frontline showed) and the Home Counties there was also a parallel scene which was blacker and more inner city (often South London) and revolved around George Power, Steve Walsh, Greg Edwards (who also had connections with the soul mafia early on). That was not to say there wasn't crossover of the audiences between the 2 scenes I was firmly a part of the suburban side but occasionally went to The Best Disco In Town at The Lyceum or the Radio London Soul Nights out which were full of the South London crowd. 

By about 1981/82 the jazz-funk scene as a whole was absolutely massive. It won't be too far from the truth to say if you were young and working-class and knew the score you were part of the scene. Of course how involved you were varied big time from the full on jazz loving, Caister jazz room hanging out, pirate radio listening afficianado to at the other end of the scale the Level 42  and Second Image (and in the girls' case Sharon Redd, Evelyn King)  loving mass of London and Home Counties mass of working class youth.

THe scene encompassed everything from the music, to the radio (Robbie Vincent on Radio London or the pirates such as JFM and Invicta), to the clubs (Flicks (Dartford), Gold Mine (Canvey Island), Zero 6  (Southend), Safari Club (Windsor), Jacksons (Staines), Belvederes (Ascot) etc - most South Eastern towns had at least a pub that played the music to the fashions (wedge haircuts, white socks slip-ons, reindeer jumpers.tucked into your baggy jeans etc) and of course the weekenders at Caister and Bournemouth.

However being almost completely a working-class phenomenon if you weren't part of it you could easily have never known it existed. It also more or less completely restricted as this mass movement to the before mentioned London and the Home Counties - if you got more than 40 miles from London it didn't exist.

By the mid -1980s in many of the clubs jazz had completely taken over and become slightly intolerant of more modern funkier stuff - I had a tape from a weekender for many years (1986) where Nicky Holloway was saying on his weekender radio show that he played everything and that was true as the rest of the tape revealed - unlike many who either just played jazz, or nothing electronic (Chris Hill for instance).

Still a lot of the djs from this scene the aforementioned (Paul Oakenfold, Pete Tong, Johnny Walker, Colin Hudd, Trevor Fung, Danny Rampling) were there to kick acid house off and Froggy even leant his sound system (which would always be in the funk room at Caister) to a lot of the early big raves.  

Although in its purest form it was dying on it arse by about 1985 in its wider 'dance' form the weekenders that followed on from Caister were now so big they were advertised in the Sun. Incidentally to see the death of the old soul/funk scene in one video go on YouTube and put in Prestatyn Weekender 1988 and see the death of that scene and the takeover of the house scene in microcosm. 

Rare Groove was something completely different - it was more West End, more middle class, more studenty, more trendy (and because of that was in the 'cooler' end of the media). And to be honest there was a fair bit of hostility towards it from those who were part of the older scenes. To them it was full of posh kids (who'd probably been into something unmentionable like indie guitar music a couple of years before) wearing silly 70s retro clothes and playing records that in many cases had always been dropped as oldies by the old jazz-funk scene djs and on the funk and soul pirates but without a song and dance being made of it like was now happening because all these fashion designers and media types were dancing to them them. It also got mixed up (at least in the media) with the early House scene (or at least the more commercial pop end of it) in some ways  for instance S'Express and the Funky Worm (showing that rare groove had made its way up the M1 to similar type people in Sheffield) with all those 70s fashions and 70s funk samples.

Anyway this was all happening by 1986/87 so you can see that even before Acid House went big in 1988 it seemed that everyone was already into dance music (especially in London and the South East where I was anyway) so it's easy to see why Acid House went so big so quickly.

The jazz-funk scene remains the one big youth scene that even now is largely forgotten - even Northern Soul (with its main audience drawn from young people of a similar background albeit in different parts of the country) is relatively well known in certain sections of the media these days. This may have something to do with it being completely working-class (obviously Northern Soul was too but that had the advantage of being safely tucked away in the regions) but the jazz-funk scene was from the region where the media lived except as is the case with the South Eastern working-class per se the media do their best to ignore them and (except when they need their cars fixed, or the plumbings on the blink) would rather they didn't exist and live in the 'nice' areas theyve just moved into. But anyway that's another story.

All that's left is a few Caister audio tapes on YouTube and a pretty crappy 20th Century Box telly programme introduced by Danny Baker (!) . but going on the reviews of the 2 Northern Soul films its maybe good the media doesn't get its claws into it! 

  

 

 

.

Edited July 19, 2015 by kingprawn

[Daved]

Good post. Just a few things to add from me. The early 80s scene you describe is still very much alive in a revival kind of way. Similar to the norther oldies scene (but perhaps with slightly younger folk), there are countless dos in the southeast attend by middle aged people still dancing to Standing Right Here. Caister continues to be very popular too.

 

Agree about the rapid change from 1987/88. I saw that Prestatyn weekender video recently too and I was alarmed at the change and how huge acid house was so quickly. Hip hop and other genres were also getting huge too.

 

The music itself caused a demise. It went very downtempo and some of those mid 80’s productions were awful. I always think that release of Keith Sweat’s “Make It Last Forever” LP was the beginning of the end and as far as soul releases on major labels were concerned for the next 8 years or so. However, there was some very high quality real soul releases going on which weren’t widely popular in regular clubs like By All Means, Broomfield, Chapter 8, Dee Dee Wilde, etc.

 

As for rare groove, the big stuff (not just Jean Knight J) did get nationwide exposure and I liked some of it. It should have resonated more with me having been brought up on northern soul, but I’d just spent the last 5 years buying old records and was enjoying buying lots of contemporary new releases from places like City Sounds.

[dean jj]

Oh well may as well stick me sixpence worth in....

Jazz-funk as a music was disco made by jazz musicians unable to pay the rent playing jazz in the 1970's. Obviously, having the chops, these did make rather more complicated disco records which appealed to the fancy movers and fleet of foot on the contemporary black music club scene in the UK. It must be remembered, here at the heart of northern soul fandom, that new release black American music has always been popular in the UK ; especially in urban areas. Jazz-funk as a term pretty much vanished by 1982 as its aficionados annexed themselves from the mainstream in upstairs rooms and specialist nights with a pure jazz dance policy. 

   Rare Groove, a mainly London based fashion driven club thing in the 1980's, played forgotten seventies 45's overwhelmingly of the funky variety from James Brown but not exclusively. Certainly not as rare as northern records but getting on for ten years or more old so did need finding I remember on a rather extended night out in London we ended up, via a private party at the RCA playing northern [Keb 'even oldies were newies once!'] and a Kalima gig at the Blue note, at the Cat In the Hat where a slightly squiffy Charles Reese, being a serious Mecca boy, rather pissed off the DJ's by loudly naming every record they played.

  Two-Step, as stated before, shebeen soul, pilfered and refined by us naughty northerners. Some of the really big tracks were all groove and crap vocals so some refining was required. Rod mentioned Victor who did appear hunched over the crates on Rod and Dave's stall and in Expansions. In the shop he was also looking for new indie releases fresh from Soul Bowl as well as the deletions, oldies, etc.

   I remember buying 'Hutson1' from Rod and Dave for £3 and playing 'lucky fellow' in Manchester, while Richards Mum picked one up from a revolving LP rack [remember those?] in the village post office, for a similar amount, and at almost exactly the same time, and he choosing 'all because of you' to play at The Half-Way House etc. Aaah! Such innocent times.

All these trends crossed paths, bumped into each other, referenced and stole from each other....cultural life is never as simple as the as labels put on it would have it.

By the mid 80's you've got cross-over, the beginnings of really rare funk being played, and the increasing influence of various styles of Latin music influencing various scenes including northern. The story goes on and on...

dean 

Edited July 21, 2015 by dean jj

[Glynthornhill]

Thought you might have given a cursory comment to the Gallery , and Hacienda Dean. Following our recent amusing conversation from when the Gallery was force-ably closed by the boys in blue.... Both these clubs , and the influential Berlin nights promoting jazz fusion in it's rawest form were instrumental ( good pun ) in shaping the all encompassing strands of the North West Scene during that period..... 

[dean jj]

Well,

I'm unsure about the correctness of commenting on your own nights but as you kindly asked Uncle Glynn. In the late 80's I played a night called The Groovers Convention every Friday at the Gallery with Jon Tracy [at the time the last defiantly black night club left in Manchester] and Wide Night every Saturday at the Hacienda with Dave Haslem. At Groovers the sound was mainly two-step soul, funky soul, cross-over soul, well soul really. The story Glynn refers too is that I was the last person to play a record in the Gallery. The police had targeted the place for sometime but the undercover officers enjoyed it so much that they failed to accurately report the full extent of its social infrastructure. Anyway at about 9.30 one Friday a coach load of police pushed in the doors and a man with lots of pips on his shoulder waved his swagger stick under my nose and said 'turn that f**cking shit off'. Rather unprofessional if you ask me. As you know they don't do things by half in Manchester: the Gallery is now a pavement.

   I did Saturdays at the Hacienda for two years until the pressure to play just house music, which I did play but playing one thing all night is painfully dull if you ask me, meant I was given the elbow though returned in the early 90's to do a funk night called Fuse. Dave Haslem would play Hip hop, Manc. guitar bands etc. and I would intersperse that with the previously mentioned house music [one set of soulful house and one of acid house] along with modern soul, northern soul, Latin, funk, disco, and if playing the last records some sneaky two-step. Once I played Otis Gayle 'i'll be around' last record which upset the management no end.

  The joys of having two clubs in the same wonderful city at the same time is that if you found something you liked it would fit it to one format or other. Later I managed the same thing with Djangos and Parkers.

Anyway enough of this nostalgia, I haven't DJ'd since February, give us a gig?

dean 

[dean jj]

I was going to mention the new release connection but I thought it might complicate it even further and I can't remember any examples except for a 12" on MCA by Front Page and I've forgotten the title of that!

 

ROD

Would it be 'closer'? If you've got a 12" for sale Rod I'd love one as I've only got the CD album.

dean

[Modernsoulsucks]

Would it be 'closer'? If you've got a 12" for sale Rod I'd love one as I've only got the CD album.

dean

A long time ago Dean,sorry.

[Jordirip]

Would it be 'closer'? If you've got a 12" for sale Rod I'd love one as I've only got the CD album.

dean

The fabled 12" of Closer. I was looking for that for years, no-one ever knew anything about it's existence, although Manchester rumour said it did exist.

[Guest kingprawn]

<Agree about the rapid change from 1987/88. I saw that Prestatyn weekender video recently too and I was alarmed at the change and how huge acid house was so quickly. Hip hop and other genres were also getting huge too.

The music itself caused a demise. It went very downtempo and some of those mid 80’s productions were awful. >

Yes and to give an idea of how fast I remember being at the Bournemouth weekender in about April 1988 and noticing this group of people with bandanas and other to us unusual clothing (I should imagine that these must have been from Shoom or the very first weeks (before it took off) of Spectrum) and we were saying "what's all that about" and not having a clue why they were dressed like that and then 6 months later you had what's on the Prestatyn videos.

i also agree the music became to a large extent apalling around 1985/86 awful leaden very unfunny over produced drums over everything. Even the big club hits like Full Circle 'Working up a Sweat' or the Conway brothers weren't very inspiring so maybe another reason why a lot of the old scene was so easily blown away.