Pete Waterman Northern Soul

[Guest Bearsy]

You always know what to expect with these shows...oldie woldie, wigan, twisted wheel stories etc etc. I agree with a post that Bearsy made about why play stuff like Hit and Run and Out on The Floor when you could be expsoing people to tunes like The Master Keys the Grey Imprint, Rudy Love etc. If these shows are going to be produced and aired there needs to be more effort and relevance. Why interview people who are in thier 60's talking about the days when Major Lance played...boring! Why not speak to the people who are more in touch with club nights which attract younger crowds and are playing more upfront soul sounds...there's enough nights; Different Strokes, Empty Bottles, Driving Beat, Soul-ed Out + lots more. So much stuff to talk about regarding todays scene, the music, the clothes, the people the dancing, the charactors, the dealers (record dealers ) etc. The music I hear at venues is getting better and better, I think there will be an increase in people coming to see what it's all about, lets just hope they come to one of the more exciting nights where it's edgey and cool so hopefully they'll enjoy it and want to taste some more!

I am looking forward to this film that Elaine is producing the trailer looks good, I just hope it has a bit more substance than Soul Boy!

Have a great Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Callum

Callum you put it in a better way than i ever could

[Guest allnightandy]

You always know what to expect with these shows...oldie woldie, wigan, twisted wheel stories etc etc. I agree with a post that Bearsy made about why play stuff like Hit and Run and Out on The Floor when you could be expsoing people to tunes like The Master Keys the Grey Imprint, Rudy Love etc. If these shows are going to be produced and aired there needs to be more effort and relevance. Why interview people who are in thier 60's talking about the days when Major Lance played...boring! Why not speak to the people who are more in touch with club nights which attract younger crowds and are playing more upfront soul sounds...there's enough nights; Different Strokes, Empty Bottles, Driving Beat, Soul-ed Out + lots more. So much stuff to talk about regarding todays scene, the music, the clothes, the people the dancing, the charactors, the dealers (record dealers ) etc. The music I hear at venues is getting better and better, I think there will be an increase in people coming to see what it's all about, lets just hope they come to one of the more exciting nights where it's edgey and cool so hopefully they'll enjoy it and want to taste some more!

I am looking forward to this film that Elaine is producing the trailer looks good, I just hope it has a bit more substance than Soul Boy!

Have a great Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Callum

Boring to you , as you weren't there ! Show some respect for those that were

if people from that era want to make a film about it , let them !

if someone from your ere wants to make a film about the scene now , let them !

I don't like feckin Sharks but i didn't start whinging at Spielberg , telling them how to spend his money

Elaine Found the funding for her film a passion she had for many years , and i would imagine in these time very hard to do

So why should she use that money to portray a scene she might not know or like

if you want a film get a director and find the funding . She Did It !

And as for "Grandads in vests" we all get old one day , even you

and unless you are just along for the ride now

you too could end up being one !

[Guest Marky Tee]

Boring to you , as you weren't there ! Show some respect for those that were

if people from that era want to make a film about it , let them !

if someone from your ere wants to make a film about the scene now , let them !

I don't like feckin Sharks but i didn't start whinging at Spielberg , telling them how to spend his money

Elaine Found the funding for her film a passion she had for many years , and i would imagine in these time very hard to do

So why should she use that money to portray a scene she might not know or like

if you want a film get a director and find the funding . She Did It !

And as for "Grandads in vests" we all get old one day , even you

and unless you are just along for the ride now

you too could end up being one !

Bit of a challenge there for ya Callum, and as someone who couldn't possibly have been there it may be boring to you, but it wasn't and still isn't to those who were. And the reason people were interviewed and mentioned Major Lance is because thats more or less where it all started. How much more relevance do you want. That may sound patronizing but everybody has a choice, I'm right and you're not wrong. Now if a second programme were made looking at the intervening years, following it through to current day, that wouldn't be a bad thing at all. Perhaps then one of the champions of the modern scene would obtain the financial backing to follow in Elaine's footsteps. My concern is is may not have the box-office appeal.

Aimed at callum64's post

Edited December 23, 2011 by Marky Tee

[Wiggyflat]

Callum you put it in a better way than i ever could

Boring to you , as you weren't there ! Show some respect for those that were

if people from that era want to make a film about it , let them !

if someone from your ere wants to make a film about the scene now , let them !

I don't like feckin Sharks but i didn't start whinging at Spielberg , telling them how to spend his money

Elaine Found the funding for her film a passion she had for many years , and i would imagine in these time very hard to do

So why should she use that money to portray a scene she might not know or like

if you want a film get a director and find the funding . She Did It !

And as for "Grandads in vests" we all get old one day , even you

and unless you are just along for the ride now

you too could end up being one !

"Todays scene?".Oldies nights are in reality "todays scene" as there's loads of them on every weekend an the biggest niter in the country is an oldies night.These are the nights that are packing them in.There's some good music being found now but in reality it can't be compared to the "Top 500 records".Rare Soul doesn't do it for me (most of it I find too slow and unexciting) as I'm more interested in collecting the underplayed oldies (uptempo) and the ones that slipped through the net.Good luck to Elaine's film but the news segment is exactly the type of potrayal that everyone was up in arms about on the Soulboy thread although I think they have the little details in clothing etc down to a tee.I enjoyed the Pete Waterman show.....he seems quite an amiable type of man. Maybe he should have used the word "working class" instead of "miners". ....maybe he could fund Elaine's film.By the way I posted a 90 minute youtube video of uptempo underplayed northern and Bearsy didn't like any of them so I came to the conclusion that he wasn't into northern just rare soul

Edited December 23, 2011 by wiggyflat

[Pete Eccles]

Boring to you , as you weren't there ! Show some respect for those that were

if people from that era want to make a film about it , let them !

if someone from your ere wants to make a film about the scene now , let them !

I don't like feckin Sharks but i didn't start whinging at Spielberg , telling them how to spend his money

Elaine Found the funding for her film a passion she had for many years , and i would imagine in these time very hard to do

So why should she use that money to portray a scene she might not know or like

if you want a film get a director and find the funding . She Did It !

And as for "Grandads in vests" we all get old one day , even you

and unless you are just along for the ride now

you too could end up being one !

This is basically what I was trying to say earlier in the thread, not very well, it's hard enough trying to sell todays discoveries to the current attendees of events in the main, let alone the masses of untrained ears,

As much as I love hearing something new, I would love to hear the likes of Moses Smith and Mitch Ryder for the first time again, which means I quite envy anyone that may watch Elaines film completely unfamiliar with the soundtrack,

Edited December 23, 2011 by Pete60

[Deepdown]

[Steve G]

Isn't it as simple as this?

-Elaine's film is a look back to the 70s when we were young etc. And many of us are looking forward to seeing it completed.

-PW radio show was a good lookback over the scene

- We could do with a separate documentary looking at the current scene, old and new.

Merry Xmas, Steve

[Zed1]

By the way I posted a 90 minute youtube video of uptempo UNDERPLAYED northern

Linky please?.....

This IMHO is some of the problem of Todays scene, too many good tracks which are deemed too rare for the 'same old' local soul nights but not rare enough for the upfront nights meaning they're unlikely to see a set of decks.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Zed1

[Winnie :-)]

Boring to you , as you weren't there ! Show some respect for those that were

if people from that era want to make a film about it , let them !

if someone from your ere wants to make a film about the scene now , let them !

I don't like feckin Sharks but i didn't start whinging at Spielberg , telling them how to spend his money

Elaine Found the funding for her film a passion she had for many years , and i would imagine in these time very hard to do

So why should she use that money to portray a scene she might not know or like

if you want a film get a director and find the funding . She Did It !

And as for "Grandads in vests" we all get old one day , even you

and unless you are just along for the ride now

you too could end up being one !

I thought Callum was talking about the radio programme and the people interviewed on it, he only mentioned Elaine's film at the end and said he was looking forward to it, so they're two separate topics to me. If she were making a documentary on today's scene it would be impossible to please everyone, the oldies crowd sees themselves as the stalwarts, the upfront crowd sees themselves as the future. Neither is wrong, but impossible to portray, which is why she's chosen to make a feature film, about the 7Ts with the main theme being northern soul, pretty sensible move if you ask me looking forward to seeing it, as I think we all are

[Wiggyflat]

Linky please?.....

This IMHO is some of the problem of Todays scene, too many good tracks which are deemed too rare for the 'same old' local soul nights but not rare enough for the upfront nights meaning they're unlikely to see a set of decks.

I did this one

and then i did this one.

Bearsy thought the first one was rubbish. This is the second one

[Guest allnightandy]

"Todays scene?".Oldies nights are in reality "todays scene" as there's loads of them on every weekend an the biggest niter in the country is an oldies night.These are the nights that are packing them in.There's some good music being found now but in reality it can't be compared to the "Top 500 records".Rare Soul doesn't do it for me (most of it I find too slow and unexciting) as I'm more interested in collecting the underplayed oldies (uptempo) and the ones that slipped through the net.Good luck to Elaine's film but the news segment is exactly the type of potrayal that everyone was up in arms about on the Soulboy thread although I think they have the little details in clothing etc down to a tee.I enjoyed the Pete Waterman show.....he seems quite an amiable type of man. Maybe he should have used the word "working class" instead of "miners". ....maybe he could fund Elaine's film.By the way I posted a 90 minute youtube video of uptempo underplayed northern and Bearsy didn't like any of them so I came to the conclusion that he wasn't into northern just rare soul

Hi Wiggyflat Whats the title on your you tube video i'll have a look at it Thanks Andy !

[Chalky]

Just listened to the show, interesting, nothing haven't heard before though from the media but interesting non the less. I would have liked him to visit the all-nighter seen of today though to see how it is today and not rely totally on overplayed oldies.

[Little-stevie]

Marky Tee, Wiggy, All niter Andy etc etc..

Why mention Callum and the film???? he was talking about the radio show it looks like to me... Maybe read his post in full before jumping in...

[Guest allnightandy]

Marky Tee, Wiggy, All niter Andy etc etc..

Why mention Callum and the film???? he was talking about the radio show it looks like to me... Maybe read his post in full before jumping in...

I read his post (In full) i stand by what i said about being disrespectful "Oldie woldies" "Stories about the wheel" "Why interview people in their 60's talking about when Major Lance played "Boring" Totally disrespectful to the forefathers of this scene and in fact everybody who has gone before

The BBC and pete Waterman made a programme about what they know and perceive to be northern soul . So who is anybody to tell them They got it wrong and this is what you should make your programme about ? If we could do that we would never have had eastenders / coronation st or any of these crappy reality tv shows that we have today because i would have told them they can't make them

Now if Ian Levine made a programme !

He just might portray the scene as you see it now , as he introduced your type of music to the scene

But i feel he may not devote the whole programme to it .

As you cannot grow anything , without Roots !

Edited December 23, 2011 by allnightandy

[Guest Bearsy]

"Todays scene?".Oldies nights are in reality "todays scene" as there's loads of them on every weekend an the biggest niter in the country is an oldies night.These are the nights that are packing them in.There's some good music being found now but in reality it can't be compared to the "Top 500 records".Rare Soul doesn't do it for me (most of it I find too slow and unexciting) as I'm more interested in collecting the underplayed oldies (uptempo) and the ones that slipped through the net.Good luck to Elaine's film but the news segment is exactly the type of potrayal that everyone was up in arms about on the Soulboy thread although I think they have the little details in clothing etc down to a tee.I enjoyed the Pete Waterman show.....he seems quite an amiable type of man. Maybe he should have used the word "working class" instead of "miners". ....maybe he could fund Elaine's film.By the way I posted a 90 minute youtube video of uptempo underplayed northern and Bearsy didn't like any of them so I came to the conclusion that he wasn't into northern just rare soul

I have not knocked the film i only mentioned that they could of played more up to date tunes on the documnentry the other night that was about the Northern Soul scene that are doing the rounds in todays scene rare or northern soul and like ive said they to me are both the same, its all b loody rare and can anyone tell me me if Eddie Parker - Im gone, is rare soul or Northern soul. Mello Souls rare or northern, salvadors rare or northern soul, soul incorporated rare or northern soul ??????? and No your right your youtube didnt do it for me, sorry, and like you have stated so many times on SS that you cant find a night that musically does it for you, i can there are plenty of nighters/soul nights that hit the spot for me, ie, the other night Bournemouth Uni was the best soul night i had attended this year cos there was something for everyone and the djs was all on the button, oldies, rare, underplayed cheap expensive and every pigeon wholed catergorie you canb think of etc etc etc, if you think that all rare soul is slow and unexciting then you must have missed quite a few tunes and on that imho then you really have got a lot to look forward too. so the oldies nighters/nighters are THEE scene today are they. well i beg to differ, also I REALLY AM looking forward to the film cos everything i have read seen and heard about how its being produced is going to be as close to how it used to as it can get, i wasnt there and so wish i had of been but i wasnt so for me it will be yet another great insigt into what the scene was built on and how the foundations back then have pathed the way for us all in todays scene which i wouldnt swap for anyhting else in this world and long may the Rare Soul Northern Soul scene continue, ps, we cant all like the same and we dont and also in defence of Callum i dont think he was having a dig that the past is shite its only about today i read it that in the documentry on Northern Soul the other night by Pete Waterman a few more up to date tunes could of been aired as not everyone in the scene was around back in the day, yes he respects everything like i do about back in the day but like me we wasnt there and that aint knocking it and with so many wanting youngsters to come along and see what its all about then there will be a lot more that are only interesed in the music and not its past cos all they will want to do is go out have a dance and a great night, the scene is there for everyone to enjoy however they choose too and sometimes i feel and thats why ive posted on this thread that we aint still back in the 70s, yes i can only imagine how great it was and so wish i could of tasted a bit of it back then but i didnt and i cant so all i can do is live for todays scene and thats why i am in todays scene like many others and wouldnt a few tunes that represent todays scene like Callum listed may not of been a bad thing to of heard on PW documentry on the Northern soul scene,

A recent thread had a lot of people yes i know they dont represent the whole scene that the ideal night wopuld be djs mixing it up with Oldies newies rare underplayed etc etc etc but most of all exciting dance music, each to thier own

[Guest Bearsy]

I did this one

and then i did this one.

Bearsy thought the first one was rubbish. This is the second one

yu wanna pick me out then go for it wiggy, sorry it didnt do it for me , ok hows that satisfied now

Edited December 24, 2011 by Bearsy

[Guest allnightandy]

yu wanna pick me out then go for it wiggy, sorry it didnt do it for me , ok hows that satisfied now

Have listened to most of the first one and i see the attraction of the uptempo (Fell by the wayside) sounds they really are pretty good

i will listen to the rest over this week

Andy

[Guest]

I thought Callum was talking about the radio programme and the people interviewed on it, he only mentioned Elaine's film at the end and said he was looking forward to it, so they're two separate topics to me. If she were making a documentary on today's scene it would be impossible to please everyone, the oldies crowd sees themselves as the stalwarts, the upfront crowd sees themselves as the future. Neither is wrong, but impossible to portray, which is why she's chosen to make a feature film, about the 7Ts with the main theme being northern soul, pretty sensible move if you ask me looking forward to seeing it, as I think we all are

This is the mistake people make WIN...From a film making perspective - and in trying to make a piece that would be interesting to the wider public - the question of whether people like 60s oldies, newies, 70S/Modern/upfront. rare and underplayed etc, etc, etc is not really that important and is not 'story' material...That type of stuff is only of interest to scene devotees, it is the detail which we argue about among ourselves constantly (sadly)...And slowly but surely the direction of this thread is being tugged back into that endless argument as the latest posts clearly exhibit...

In film terms, The human experience and the dedication to a lifestyle and how that has affected and shaped people's whole lives over decades is what constitutes a broader 'story' to which other people outside the scene might find interesting...We are not alone in having lifelong passions and obsessions...There is a universal theme that is reflected by other people in other interests and universal themes and empathy's are what you need to tap into to make good films......And when people use terms like 'box office appeal', there will never be enough BOA for pieces that are made and directed at the Soul scene itself...So It depends what the original 'goals' are mate....

One film would dissect and analyse all the strands of the scene, explain the genres, have inputs from the champions of each splinter group and would probably, be mainly be of interest to Soul fans, although as you rightly and succinctly point out, given the division apparent, it would be very hard to build a narrative that one group or another would not find fault with... In short it would become just another entity for us all to argue about, which would probably be meat and veg for us, but would not appeal to a wider market....

The second approach says, ok, what are the aspects of human nature which create lifelong obsessions and passions, what makes people dedicate their whole life to an art form, a hobby, a musical genre? What has been the resulting effect on their lives, relationships, families etc, was their all consuming passion a positive thing or had it had damaging effects too? Using Northern Soul as a vehicle for for that type of human examination/film treatment is an interesting proposition and is an approach that would find a wider 'echo'....And finding out what is actually driving a man in his late 50s, early 60s to spend weeks on end delving through the vaults of legendary American recording studios for instance, would be a far more interesting snapshot for the general public than an analysis of which individual sections of the scene the tracks he finds are most suited for...

As regards DAVE GODIN'S fears, I do remember reading his stuff about not wanting to see the scene go the way of the 'Teddy Boy' revival scene and of course back then in the flush of youth, it was hard to grasp, but we are right there now and whilst I am looking forward to seeing this movie too, I am hoping it will provide some type of high quality closure on the endless nostalgic lookbacks and retro-flavored examinations....Not meaning to offend anybody but when I saw some photos of young teenage lads dressed in Soul bags at a do the other day, I felt a distinctive feeling of deja-vu...DAVE'S words sprung back into my mind and I remembered seeing a couple of little Teddy Boy miniatures who had been dressed up in Drapes and drainpipes back in the mid 70s and photographed by the Music Press...

Edited December 24, 2011 by rich chorley

[spike1]

I was at the wheel on the Sunday that mr waterman was interviewing people

Pete Roberts asked me and others if we would do an interview for the program

I declined

A, I wasn't old enough to go the original wheel so I couldn't comment on the sixties scene

B, I just go to dance to the music I love and I didnt want to miss a second in the dance floor

I have got to know most of the guys who were interviewed over the last 4 years these people are the most ardent followers of sixties soul music and have been for nearly 50 years in

some cases this could be the last time that

these origal soulies have a chance to share thier recollections of the past with us all

total respect! Is due

I would love it if the BBC followed up with a visit to say lifeline. Or the 100 club to interveiw some of the upfront and currant poromoters djays and

attendees to get a picture of how the scene has progressed over the last 50 years

As some of you guys say it's impossible for you to feel what it was like for us back in the seventies and I'm sure it's quite boring for you to listen to all our recollections about wigan torch

wheel ect but that's what we have memories and I'm afraid as we get older we tend to tell anyone who will listen the same story over and over sorry for that!

Strange cos back in the day most hardcore soulies tried to keep the whole thing under wraps

Suppose I'm lucky cos if I wanted I could sample the upfront rare soul newies scene

Very much doubt it but I could

Would like to see the difference in dress and dance style or is that for another thread?

[Wiggyflat]

yu wanna pick me out then go for it wiggy, sorry it didnt do it for me , ok hows that satisfied now

Not picking you out I'm just using it to as an example to show the big gap between the rare soul and northern soul.

Edited December 24, 2011 by wiggyflat

[Guest Marky Tee]

Marky Tee, Wiggy, All niter Andy etc etc..

Why mention Callum and the film???? he was talking about the radio show it looks like to me... Maybe read his post in full before jumping in...

Steve, you ought to read my quote properly in which I quite clearly stated that a second PROGRAMME should be made etc etc, in other words a radio programme, I then went on to say then maybe someone could then make a film about the up to date scene. Nowt wrong with how I read Steve

[Winnie :-)]

This is the mistake people make WIN...From a film making perspective - and in trying to make a piece that would be interesting to the wider public - the question of whether people like 60s oldies, newies, 70S/Modern/upfront. rare and underplayed etc, etc, etc is not really that important and is not 'story' material...That type of stuff is only of interest to scene devotees, it is the detail which we argue about among ourselves constantly (sadly)...And slowly but surely the direction of this thread is being tugged back into that endless argument as the latest posts clearly exhibit...

In film terms, The human experience and the dedication to a lifestyle and how that has affected and shaped people's whole lives over decades is what constitutes a broader 'story' to which other people outside the scene might find interesting...We are not alone in having lifelong passions and obsessions...There is a universal theme that is reflected by other people in other interests and universal themes and empathy's are what you need to tap into to make good films......And when people use terms like 'box office appeal', there will never be enough BOA for pieces that are made and directed at the Soul scene itself...So It depends what the original 'goals' are mate....

One film would dissect and analyse all the strands of the scene, explain the genres, have inputs from the champions of each splinter group and would probably, be mainly be of interest to Soul fans, although as you rightly and succinctly point out, given the division apparent, it would be very hard to build a narrative that one group or another would not find fault with... In short it would become just another entity for us all to argue about, which would probably be meat and veg for us, but would not appeal to a wider market....

The second approach says, ok, what are the aspects of human nature which create lifelong obsessions and passions, what makes people dedicate their whole life to an art form, a hobby, a musical genre? What has been the resulting effect on their lives, relationships, families etc, was their all consuming passion a positive thing or had it had damaging effects too? Using Northern Soul as a vehicle for for that type of human examination/film treatment is an interesting proposition and is an approach that would find a wider 'echo'....And finding out what is actually driving a man in his late 50s, early 60s to spend weeks on end delving through the vaults of legendary American recording studios for instance, would be a far more interesting snapshot for the general public than an analysis of which individual sections of the scene the tracks he finds are most suited for...

As regards DAVE GODIN'S fears, I do remember reading his stuff about not wanting to see the scene go the way of the 'Teddy Boy' revival scene and of course back then in the flush of youth, it was hard to grasp, but we are right there now and whilst I am looking forward to seeing this movie too, I am hoping it will provide some type of high quality closure on the endless nostalgic lookbacks and retro-flavored examinations....Not meaning to offend anybody but when I saw some photos of young teenage lads dressed in Soul bags at a do the other day, I felt a distinctive feeling of deja-vu...DAVE'S words sprung back into my mind and I remembered seeing a couple of little Teddy Boy miniatures who had been dressed up in Drapes and drainpipes back in the mid 70s and photographed by the Music Press...

I spent some time talking to Elaine yesterday and her only goal is to make a film that reflects the northern scene evolving in the 7Ts, it's us as ''devotees'', that are looking into having a say in what is essentially her project. Whilst chatting, the thing that came across was that she had no agenda, just wanted to make an enjoyable quality film, that's as authentic in it's production as possible, and I applaud her for it. There'll be no aged dancers, and why should there be, I realise you're not saying there should be, but she told me it's been one of the biggest criticisms so far, but as soon as you stick us balding or chubby types in, it would in my opinion lose it's realism, and as thats what she's going for, fair play. As I said earlier, the points Callum made were more to do with the radio show and it's portrayal, and I tend to agree with him and Bearsy, some more contemporary music wouldn't have gone amiss, but as I also said, I would have liked to have seen/heard a part 2, explaining the progression but I think that's a totally separate topic from Elaine's film

[Guest allnightandy]

Back in the 70,s the reason i quit the scene was the wedge being driven between the original northern soul scene and the more modern progressive softer , slower , smoother soul scene being promoted by Ian Levine and his Blackpool Mecca

the scene was becomming ever more commercialised and not sticking with the music i knew and loved

Now today i see the scene is still split by the diehards and the progressive movement

the soul now seems to be slower and softer where as ours was gritty and raw and in some cases had poor production due to the lack of money in those productions some of which were recorded in peoples houses basements and garages as opposed to multi million dollar recording studio's

that to me was part of the attraction which made it standout from the readily available , off the shelf Motown stuff

we can clearly see by these posts that the scene is still split on opinion and music .

Is this "Rare Soul" Actually still "Northern Soul as described by the late Dave Godin" or has the name northern soul actually been hijacked by a different genre

Edited December 24, 2011 by allnightandy

[manus]

Back in the 70,s the reason i quit the scene was the wedge being driven between the original northern soul scene and the more modern progressive softer , slower , smoother soul scene being promoted by Ian Levine and his Blackpool Mecca

the scene was becomming ever more commercialised and not sticking with the music i knew and loved

Now today i see the scene is still split by the diehards and the progressive movement

the soul now seems to be slower and softer where as ours was gritty and in some cases had poor production due to the lack of money in those productions some of which were recorded in peoples houses basements and garages as opposed to multi million dollar recording studio's

that to me was part of the attraction which made it standout from the readily available , off the shelf Motown stuff

we can clearly see by these posts that the scene is still split on opinion and music .

Is this "Rare Soul" Actually still Northern Soul as described by the late Dave Godin or has the name northern soul actually been hijacked

I always thought that rare Soul was northern Soul and vice versa. I would think that most "new" records on the upfront scene would share the same production merits/faults as those played during the period you were active given that they are mostly 60s/70s records. I would also say that the so called upfront scene shares the same values of the 70s allnighter period and that is searching out good Black American dance records to introduce to the allnighter crowd.

Cheers

Manus

Just to add to that I do recall the term Rare Soul being used bysome folk myself included in the 70s to describe the records we danced too and collected

Edited December 24, 2011 by manus

[Guest allnightandy]

I always thought that rare Soul was northern Soul and vice versa. I would think that most "new" records on the upfront scene would share the same production merits/faults as those played during the period you were active given that they are mostly 60s/70s records. I would also say that the so called upfront scene shares the same values of the 70s allnighter period and that is searching out good Black American dance records to introduce to the allnighter crowd.

Cheers

Manus

I see what you say and both scenes do seek out the rare black soul of the same period but i feel that although northern "Stompers" have been virtually picked to extinction , a lot the remaining records are now being promoted as and played as rare soul

IMHO

[Wiggyflat]

I always thought that rare Soul was northern Soul and vice versa. I would think that most "new" records on the upfront scene would share the same production merits/faults as those played during the period you were active given that they are mostly 60s/70s records. I would also say that the so called upfront scene shares the same values of the 70s allnighter period and that is searching out good Black American dance records to introduce to the allnighter crowd.

Cheers

Manus

Just to add to that I do recall the term Rare Soul being used bysome folk myself included in the 70s to describe the records we danced too and collected

The same allnighter values of seeking out good American black dance records.........I will agree on that but I think the difference is that the uptempo sound is not a primary factor anymore and midtempo and ballads are programmed.Even the funk that is played now has more of a JB sound than a Chicago "Baby Boy" sort of sound.It was inevitable as you can't keep turning up uptempo never been played winners everyday which is why I'm looking for all the records that fell through the cracks.The turnover years ago was rapid and loads of good records were overlooked.I do find it ironic that the JB style funk that the northern scene was getting away from in the early seventies(played at London clubs like Crackers) has been taken on 30 plus years later and I feel that the northern soul scene is losing it's identity in the process.

Edited December 24, 2011 by wiggyflat

[Chalky]

The same allnighter values of seeking out good American black dance records.........I will agree on that but I think the difference is that the uptempo sound is not a primary factor anymore and midtempo and ballads are programmed.Even the funk that is played now has more of a JB sound than a Chicago "Baby Boy" sort of sound.It was inevitable as you can't keep turning up uptempo never been played winners everyday which is why I'm looking for all the records that fell through the cracks.The turnover years ago was rapid and loads of good records were overlooked.I do find it ironic that the JB style funk that the northern scene was getting away from in the early seventies(played at London clubs like Crackers) has been taken on 30 plus years later and I feel that the northern soul scene is losing it's identity in the process.

Well I don't know what all-nighters you go to but uptempo and dancers is what many want now, not mid-tempo.

[manus]

I see what you say and both scenes do seek out the rare black soul of the same period but i feel that although northern "Stompers" have been virtually picked to extinction , a lot the remaining records are now being promoted as and played as rare soul

IMHO

I think Andy they are being played as rare Soul because that's what they are. I think the oldies scene doesn't seek out new records it plays records that were broken long ago and there's nothing wrong with that I really enjoy a good oldies night. But the oldies nights are nostalgia based and a mostly a snapshot of the period between 74 - 80 ( the Wheel apart) so the true heir , in my opinion, to the allnighter period of the late 60s/70s would be the upfront scene - new mainly 60/70s tunes, contemporary dress styles, and the words "first time for this" as was heard often back in the day.

I enjoyed the radio programme I love to hear people talking about their experiences of the Soul scene but it would have been good to have it brought up to date and to hear some of the sounds that are being played now.

Cheers

Manus

[manus]

The same allnighter values of seeking out good American black dance records.........I will agree on that but I think the difference is that the uptempo sound is not a primary factor anymore and midtempo and ballads are programmed.Even the funk that is played now has more of a JB sound than a Chicago "Baby Boy" sort of sound.It was inevitable as you can't keep turning up uptempo never been played winners everyday which is why I'm looking for all the records that fell through the cracks.The turnover years ago was rapid and loads of good records were overlooked.I do find it ironic that the JB style funk that the northern scene was getting away from in the early seventies(played at London clubs like Crackers) has been taken on 30 plus years later and I feel that the northern soul scene is losing it's identity in the process.

I agree Wiggy lots of records around that didn't make it back then that are deserving of a play now. But the tempo issue is a red herring I think there's always been mid tempo tunes played alongside the 100mph tunes.

Cheers

Manus

[Steve L]

Back in the 70,s the reason i quit the scene was the wedge being driven between the original northern soul scene and the more modern progressive softer , slower , smoother soul scene being promoted by Ian Levine and his Blackpool Mecca the scene was becomming ever more commercialised and not sticking with the music i knew and loved Now today i see the scene is still split by the diehards and the progressive movement the soul now seems to be slower and softer where as ours was gritty and raw and in some cases had poor production due to the lack of money in those productions some of which were recorded in peoples houses basements and garages as opposed to multi million dollar recording studio's that to me was part of the attraction which made it standout from the readily available , off the shelf Motown stuff we can clearly see by these posts that the scene is still split on opinion and music . Is this "Rare Soul" Actually still "Northern Soul as described by the late Dave Godin" or has the name northern soul actually been hijacked by a different genre

Andy the 'up front' scene is not as you imagine it mate. Softer/slower/smoother? No - my taste in music is up tempo 60's soul in the same vein as that which we were brought up on, and thats exactly what I get ( in the most part) at the venues I go to.

Have a listen to Chalky's podcasts (theres a link at the bottom of his posts) and listen to the up tempo tunes on the Andy Dyson bit. There are some mid tempo and a couple of 70s tracks as well but listen to Sir joe, Eddie Daniels (actually this was played in 76) Hopkins Brothers, Johnny Praye, Tiaras etc and tell me these records arent as good as the best oldies?

[Steve L]

The same allnighter values of seeking out good American black dance records.........I will agree on that but I think the difference is that the uptempo sound is not a primary factor anymore and midtempo and ballads are programmed.Even the funk that is played now has more of a JB sound than a Chicago "Baby Boy" sort of sound.It was inevitable as you can't keep turning up uptempo never been played winners everyday which is why I'm looking for all the records that fell through the cracks.The turnover years ago was rapid and loads of good records were overlooked.I do find it ironic that the JB style funk that the northern scene was getting away from in the early seventies(played at London clubs like Crackers) has been taken on 30 plus years later and I feel that the northern soul scene is losing it's identity in the process.

I agree with Chalky here, the nighters I go to are mainly up tempo dance music. Also the funky edged records that have come to the fore are nothing like James Brown funk to me.

I certainly wouldnt enjoy hearing any JB type funk or lots of mid tempo and ballads

[Steve G]

The same allnighter values of seeking out good American black dance records.........I will agree on that but I think the difference is that the uptempo sound is not a primary factor anymore and midtempo and ballads are programmed.Even the funk that is played now has more of a JB sound than a Chicago "Baby Boy" sort of sound.It was inevitable as you can't keep turning up uptempo never been played winners everyday which is why I'm looking for all the records that fell through the cracks.The turnover years ago was rapid and loads of good records were overlooked.I do find it ironic that the JB style funk that the northern scene was getting away from in the early seventies(played at London clubs like Crackers) has been taken on 30 plus years later and I feel that the northern soul scene is losing it's identity in the process.

This sounds like it was written in 1991. Wiggyflat you need to get round a bit more, maybe a lot more.....cos this is just rubbish. No "JB style funk" played on the upfront scene. And as for mid tempo, try going to a few upfront soul allnighters and you'll find very little mid tempo gets played, less than in the 70s these days. Or is it easier to sit around promoting oldies nights in Southend?

Edited December 24, 2011 by Steve G

[Realpeoplesmusic]

Boring to you , as you weren't there ! Show some respect for those that were

So why should she use that money to portray a scene she might not know or like

if you want a film get a director and find the funding . She Did It !

And as for "Grandads in vests" we all get old one day , even you

and unless you are just along for the ride now

you too could end up being one !

I have lots of freinds who i respect more than double my age who went to Wigan etc and I love listening to stories about their journey on the soul scene. I attend niters and soul nights and love meeting and chatting with people older than me, that's where i get most of knoweldge and records from. The point i was trying to make was about the radio show was as it's been said in so many different ways on here it would of been nice to hear more from the likes of Tomas and Casey about todays scene, they had about 1 minute to talk and the rest was about back in the day in this back in the day that, I found it pretty uninspiring. There has been loads of shows radio and TV about wigan, maybe it's worth coming at it from a different more upto date angle. It's a shame more research didn't go into todays soul scene at nighters and club nights to get a feel for the music that is being played instead of selecting a few tracks from the Tesco soundtrack to Northern Soul.

I cant wait to see the film and hats off to Elaine for putting time effort and money into the making a film about something that we all love and follow passionately.

No matter how old or fat I get in my later years you will never catch me in a vest or baggies...I'll stick to my John Smedleys and trousers.

Callum

Edited December 25, 2011 by callum_64

[Realpeoplesmusic]

Bit of a challenge there for ya Callum, and as someone who couldn't possibly have been there it may be boring to you, but it wasn't and still isn't to those who were. And the reason people were interviewed and mentioned Major Lance is because thats more or less where it all started. How much more relevance do you want. That may sound patronizing but everybody has a choice, I'm right and you're not wrong. Now if a second programme were made looking at the intervening years, following it through to current day, that wouldn't be a bad thing at all. Perhaps then one of the champions of the modern scene would obtain the financial backing to follow in Elaine's footsteps. My concern is is may not have the box-office appeal.

Aimed at callum64's post

No challenge...Just people voicing there opinions . That's what forums are for!

Callum

[Guest Bearsy]

Back in the 70,s the reason i quit the scene was the wedge being driven between the original northern soul scene and the more modern progressive softer , slower , smoother soul scene being promoted by Ian Levine and his Blackpool Mecca

the scene was becomming ever more commercialised and not sticking with the music i knew and loved

Now today i see the scene is still split by the diehards and the progressive movement

the soul now seems to be slower and softer where as ours was gritty and raw and in some cases had poor production due to the lack of money in those productions some of which were recorded in peoples houses basements and garages as opposed to multi million dollar recording studio's

that to me was part of the attraction which made it standout from the readily available , off the shelf Motown stuff

we can clearly see by these posts that the scene is still split on opinion and music .

Is this "Rare Soul" Actually still "Northern Soul as described by the late Dave Godin" or has the name northern soul actually been hijacked by a different genre

great question and one i keep saying im confused about, ive heard people saying some tunes are Rare Soul and Some Northern Soul yet others call them both Rare and Northern Soul, some just call it Northern Soul some just call it Rare Soul,

for an example is Mello Souls Northern Soul or Rare Soul, any answers anyone on this !!!!

[Guest Byrney]

great question and one i keep saying im confused about, ive heard people saying some tunes are Rare Soul and Some Northern Soul yet others call them both Rare and Northern Soul, some just call it Northern Soul some just call it Rare Soul,

for an example is Mello Souls Northern Soul or Rare Soul, any answers anyone on this !!!!

Simple mate. Utter northern originally covered as the Del Larks (can you get more northern than that?) unless you're one of those who only benefited from 3 or 4 years on the scene in the mid 70s who, lets be honest missed a big chunk of Northern Souls history and have returned with a very limited experience and a narrow view. Right, back to the egg nog.

[Russ Vickers]

Back in the 70,s the reason i quit the scene was the wedge being driven between the original northern soul scene and the more modern progressive softer , slower , smoother soul scene being promoted by Ian Levine and his Blackpool Mecca

the scene was becomming ever more commercialised and not sticking with the music i knew and loved

Now today i see the scene is still split by the diehards and the progressive movement

the soul now seems to be slower and softer where as ours was gritty and raw and in some cases had poor production due to the lack of money in those productions some of which were recorded in peoples houses basements and garages as opposed to multi million dollar recording studio's

that to me was part of the attraction which made it standout from the readily available , off the shelf Motown stuff

we can clearly see by these posts that the scene is still split on opinion and music .

Is this "Rare Soul" Actually still "Northern Soul as described by the late Dave Godin" or has the name northern soul actually been hijacked by a different genre

If you went to some of the places playing a more upfront music policy, you would realise just how far away from the mark you are & how it totally highlights common misconceptions........ho hum, here we go again, my scenes better than yours....

Best Russ

[Spacehopper]

this thread has gone off topic but i have to agree there is still loads of semi known uptempo 60s soul tunes to dance too...im not a mid tempo fan at all....and i dont mind some oldies played either

agree there is more funky stuff played but most of it i can still dance to how i dance to northern its not a 'get on the good foot' beat...but then was 'so is the sun' northern?

theres more rnb played...but isnt that better than blue eyed pop and endless instrumentals inc tv theme tunes?

the music has always changed from the wheel to wigan,mecca,stafford etc...its never been 100% northern

two scenes...what like the mecca/cleethorpes and wigan?

both scenes are responsible if there is a split,its not just the rare soul driving a wedge...maybe some oldies fans could actually give some 'new' tunes a try and some of the rare fans could put up with a few more oldies being played

at go go in bristol we advertise on our flyers '60s soul' cos thats what it is...some rare... some not...some oldies...some unknown...although we even throw in a couple of 70s...occasionally ..as long as theyre more upbeat...and only a couple mind

dean

[Guest allnightandy]

If you went to some of the places playing a more upfront music policy, you would realise just how far away from the mark you are & how it totally highlights common misconceptions........ho hum, here we go again, my scenes better than yours....

Best Russ

At no point do i say my scene is better than yours It's an observation of how i see it

[shelly]

Because it's rare, it doesn't automatically make it good, if it was good it could have sold more and therefore not be rare- just an observation here as there are financial implications to take into account. However, you're forgetting that both mid tempo and ska was played at the Wheel back in the days and nobody complained, so it always been fairly mixed, except that Wigan from '74 onwards was a different kettle of fish with a load of crap played as long as it was 100mph.But the scene started in the mid sixties so please bear this in mind before trying to shoehorn everything into two specific eras, over 45 years you'd expect any culture to progress, retract, have ups and downs etc. etc. and people to pick the bits they like, that's life mates. Shelly

Edited December 28, 2011 by shelly

[Geeselad]

The same allnighter values of seeking out good American black dance records.........I will agree on that but I think the difference is that the uptempo sound is not a primary factor anymore and midtempo and ballads are programmed.Even the funk that is played now has more of a JB sound than a Chicago "Baby Boy" sort of sound.It was inevitable as you can't keep turning up uptempo never been played winners everyday which is why I'm looking for all the records that fell through the cracks.The turnover years ago was rapid and loads of good records were overlooked.I do find it ironic that the JB style funk that the northern scene was getting away from in the early seventies(played at London clubs like Crackers) has been taken on 30 plus years later and I feel that the northern soul scene is losing it's identity in the process.

sorry totally disagree with the funkier sounds being JB influeced, I've heard an awful lot of funky tunes played in the past 12 mths and very, very few of them have any connection with JB, rhythimicaly or sonicaly. Edited December 28, 2011 by geeselad

[Guest chartertime]

I have a clip of him in a documentary

were he said " you used to see groups of coal miners dancing WITH each other" at Wigan Casino !

don't know about you but i never saw him anywhere ?

I think i worked on his house once , Warrington/Newton Le Willows area ?

Winwick

[Guest Bearsy]

Because it's rare, it doesn't automatically make it good, if it was good it could have sold more and therefore not be rare- just an observation here as there are financial implications to take into account. However, you're forgetting that both mid tempo and ska was played at the Wheel back in the days and nobody complained, so it always been fairly mixed, except that Wigan from '74 onwards was a different kettle of fish with a load of crap played as long as it was 100mph.But the scene started in the mid sixties so please bear this in mind before trying to shoehorn everything into two specific eras, over 45 years you'd expect any culture to progress, retract, have ups and downs etc. etc. and people to pick the bits they like, that's life mates. Shelly

if its popular and sold loads it dont neccesarily make it good either and this scene is not about popular records its as i have always understood been about rarer tunes wether cheap or expensive but most of all good to dance too, one soulies fave is anothers dross, totally agree with the rest of what you said though Shelly

[Guest allnightandy]

Winwick

Winwick is where the documentry was filmed ?

Winwick is where he saw coal miners dancing ?

Winwick is where you saw him ?, or

Winwick is where he lived ?

[funkyfeet]

Lets get real here all this current interest in northern soul has nothing to do with the upfront northern scene of the likes of the LifeLine nights,it's because of the mass numbers that attend OLDIES nights up and down the country, THE KINGS HALL effect for want of a better word, if it wasn't for this then the media wouldn't give a toss about a few 100 who push the boundaries forward. Todays upfront scene isn't really Northern as the term was orignally coined so just ignore the word NORTHERN Soul because the sounds the helped define the word where mostly uptempo catchy poppy tunes even if they were by black artists (Nothing wrong with this as I still love them myself), it was only as the scene matured that these have been replaced by an array of more harder uncommercial sounding tunes which is todays scene, we need a new definition to get away from the 70's and the media, and leave the OLDIES crowd to NORTHERN SOUL.

[Guest allnightandy]

Lets get real here all this current interest in northern soul has nothing to do with the upfront northern scene of the likes of the LifeLine nights,it's because of the mass numbers that attend OLDIES nights up and down the country, THE KINGS HALL effect for want of a better word, if it wasn't for this then the media wouldn't give a toss about a few 100 who push the boundaries forward. Todays upfront scene isn't really Northern as the term was orignally coined so just ignore the word NORTHERN Soul because the sounds the helped define the word where mostly uptempo catchy poppy tunes even if they were by black artists (Nothing wrong with this as I still love them myself), it was only as the scene matured that these have been replaced by an array of more harder uncommercial sounding tunes which is todays scene, we need a new definition to get away from the 70's and the media, and leave the OLDIES crowd to NORTHERN SOUL.

Wow talk about straight to the point !

That will get them posting ! LoL

[Guest Bearsy]

Wow talk about straight to the point !

That will get them posting ! LoL

he has a point too eh dont he Andy

[Guest allnightandy]

he has a point too eh dont he Andy

I'm sorry if i upset anyone !

But yes i agree !

[Guest Bearsy]

I'm sorry if i upset anyone !

But yes i agree !

i think i do too

[dthedrug]

if its popular and sold loads it dont neccesarily make it good either and this scene is not about popular records its as i have always understood been about rarer tunes wether cheap or expensive but most of all good to dance too, one soulies fave is anothers dross, totally agree with the rest of what you said though Shelly

Hi All ....I totaly agree, but there will always be a few caviats to this age old question, It has never been a simplistic question, and what is considard rare by you & me! is passe to other collectors, I dropped out of the exclusive must have click 25 years ago, for one reason only. As a married man with young kids, I could not justify to my partner the cost of records that I had & still felt I needed to own, especially when on the average wage, and as I very much liked to buy and sell, it was only my hobby, (however much the rare soul scene is a part of me, and influences me in the choice of recaptureing my fraternal youth, "am I really 60, in 3 weeks? as my cognition is of a 30 year old")

Many of the records I have in my collection as we approach 2012, are no longer exclusive sounds, even if you have not got them, you will no them and seen them, over the years when you like me cant walk by a pile of records without being magnatised to look through them,

In my studies of addiction, it is said that, when you put a piece of chocolate in your mouthm the high is more than a sexual orgasam, only for 1.4 of a second, when I look at records the anticipation is 100% higher, and certain records are of a much higher value,

So personal taste is very much a factore of desire, not the monatry value, for example :- Spyder Turner MGM Classic "I can't make it anymore" is not rare exclusive & is for many of us POPULAR today as ever, I just plated Paula Parfet "love is wonderful" BEACAN BEA135, again we all no it as above, but in this case, if you wanted it now, even if you had the money! could you by it in the next 3 hours?

So it is not as simple as to be an exclusive record, it's about your feelings about it that makes you want it, when I buy a record from a dealer, my opening gambit, has always been why are you selling it, just to here the explanation, that determins what offer I will make, I have only paid the asking price for a record if I feel that deeler has done the priceing right, making no need to hagle?

On this subject I feel there is real answer to it, like how come Ranking Johnny Boy get's so much for his record sales? who cares.

As Always DAVE