Cover-Ups(Selling Of On Site)

[Ernie Andrews]

Sure this has been done before but would like to have opinions!

Question?

Are selling cover ups on any site a breach of the sale of goods act under the section of Misrepresentation?

[Mick Holdsworth]

Good question - Don't know - It may breach some laws, but I would think Misrepresentation would only come in to play if the said c/u was NOT the correct record, irrespective of the c/u title or the real credits.

For example, if we were to step back in time a couple of years and I were to sell Belita Woods - "Foolish Girl" as a cover up - and supply to the buyer a copy of Tiaras on Op Art - that would not really be misrepresentation as the buyer got Exactly what he or she wanted.

If, however, I were to supply a copy of Dee Dee Warwick* - Foolish Girl instead, then that would be misrepresentation (and a few other questionable things too).

(* - or was it Dionne Warwick? I can't remember now)

How many Moms and Dads will be going to Santa's Grotto this week - pay a set fee and receive "something" wrapped up in Christmas paper - isn't this similar. (I've never gone to these kinds of places, but i'm assuming the parents know what they are supposedly bying in advance)

These are all opinions, I have no knowledge of law regarding these matters. If anyone does know, it would be very interesting to see.

Cheers

Mick

[Guest ScooterNik]

I think you'd only be on dodgy ground if there was a record of the same title, and by the supposed cover up artist.

If I offered a brass laden instrumental as 'Blow Jobs' by G. Spot and the Heads, I'm pretty sure that everyone would recognise that as a cover up.

If I offered it as "Brain Washer" by Jr Walker, then I'd be potentially in trouble as that is a record. The problem though, is that the purchaser may want the cover up or Jr Walker.... You'd not know which.

I've just confused myself reading back over that, but hopefully you can see what I'm suggesting?

[NEV]

Cover up's have added to the excitement of the scene ,but the fine line is selling a cover up ?

playing is fine ,does'nt cause any harm imho ,but i think if you sell something listed as a cover up for a big wedge ,it arrives at the buyers location ,he googles it and finds 10 copies for peanuts

Not a happy scenario ,but that said ..it's not usually the case ...more usual than not ,it's exclusively rare

[Simsy]

'Blow Jobs' by G. Spot and the Heads,

Yeah that's actually Willie & The Hand Jive innt!

Lol. Erm as long as 'any site' is a northern soul site - or item has a northern soul tag, it should be okay as interested parties should/would know the score.

Chances of a non rare soul collector bidding on a rare soul cover up - slim to none..

[Guest Soulbrew]

I feel I might have to say a few words on this one since it looks like

the whole thread started from a post of mine.

The specific item I'm selling as C/U has video/full soundclip and an

almost complete vinyl scan (photoshop'ed label) available,

So it'll be quite easy to frame me in case I'm trying to pull a fast one...

And luckily for everybody no Joyriders records bears the same title!

[Geeselad]

Cover up's have added to the excitement of the scene ,but the fine line is selling a cover up ?

playing is fine ,does'nt cause any harm imho ,but i think if you sell something listed as a cover up for a big wedge ,it arrives at the buyers location ,he googles it and finds 10 copies for peanuts

Not a happy scenario ,but that said ..it's not usually the case ...more usual than not ,it's exclusively rare

Great thread idea, can always remember Bunny Shivel being revealed and quite few peeps being disgruntled by it being on a major label. I could never understand why myself, your paying over the odds for someone's superior knowledge, and you obviously have a choice when handing over the cash. No ones forced into buying a cover up. From a moral stand piont covering something can be veiwed as dubious, Godin despised the practiced, but I think missed the piont myself, the tune has to have failed in the first place to end up being a CU and when it is eventually revealed the CU is probably going to bennifit from the practice in terms of cred for the artist anyway.

[Mike Lofthouse]

If, however, I were to supply a copy of Dee Dee Warwick* - Foolish Girl instead, then that would be misrepresentation (and a few other questionable things too).

(* - or was it Dionne Warwick? I can't remember now)

Cheers

Mick

* - or was it Foolish Fool?

[Douglas]

I think you'd only be on dodgy ground if there was a record of the same title, and by the supposed cover up artist.

If I offered a brass laden instrumental as 'Blow Jobs' by G. Spot and the Heads, I'm pretty sure that everyone would recognise that as a cover up.

If I offered it as "Brain Washer" by Jr Walker, then I'd be potentially in trouble as that is a record. The problem though, is that the purchaser may want the cover up or Jr Walker.... You'd not know which.

I've just confused myself reading back over that, but hopefully you can see what I'm suggesting?

I remember Pat Brady covering up Gene Toones 'WMDYW' as Frank Dell 'Baby You Got It' and there really is a record by Frank Dell with the exact same song title.

[Mick Holdsworth]

* - or was it Foolish Fool?

Ah ha - Yes it was

[Ernie Andrews]

Just say I bought the one Soulbrew was selling than all of a sudden a boxful of 500 come out of the woodwork I could in theory take a civil claim against the seller on the basis that the record wasnt infact the Joyriders at all and therefore the intention in a legal argument was to decieve as it wouldnt have been covered up in the first place.

I had a discussion with a solicitor over this some time ago over a few glasses of wine and he said because the civil claim timescale is 3 years he said it would clearly be found as a case of misrepresentation in the same way antiques that are not stamped are given reproductive stamps. Original item sold as something else. It does matter that the original label is underneath and it is what it is advertised as that does not match what is underneath.

I baulked a little bit then asked the question - so what if it was played out as the cover up name . he then said he would get back to me which he did and his answer was thats just as bad and could be in breach of copyright " ADvertising a record by an artists as someone else" otherwise known as Plageurism (If Ive spelt it correct). To answer anyone! whats the point of cover ups today if as said by soulbrew thats its actually very rare( the record in question) no matter what.So why bother! Just take the credit for breaking it on the scene!

Just had thought! What if a cover -up was put on ebay with a full explanation the label depicting the artist and title is not what the original label underneath says! Wonder if Ebay would pull it?

Edited December 9, 2011 by Ernie Andrews

[Guest Soulbrew]

Clearing things up

1) Let's leave the civil claim out for a split second as, first of all, it should be first

determined where the transaction took place, then which Law applies.

In this case would probably Italy, but we're not 100% sure, so let's go on.

2) Ebay would leave it alone as long as it wasn't reported. I.E. nobody these days

reports those so called "repro" that in some cases are bootleg. Ebay simply hasn't

got enough resources to do that. Please note that if I was looking for a hit and run,

I wouldn't even bother replying. I find the discussion utterly interesting.

3) The record is rare, but it ain't certainly Frank Wilson's...

Out there there are others copies for sure, and professional dealers ready to

jump in. So I feel I have the right to present it as a cover-up to preserve my

advantage.

4) Let's say it was sold as C/U by Ady Croasdell to me or to Ernie, for that matter.

Would the whole story be the same?

[Dave Abbott]

Just say I bought the one Soulbrew was selling than all of a sudden a boxful of 500 come out of the woodwork I could in theory take a civil claim against the seller on the basis that the record wasnt infact the Joyriders at all and therefore the intention in a legal argument was to decieve as it wouldnt have been covered up in the first place.

I had a discussion with a solicitor over this some time ago over a few glasses of wine and he said because the civil claim timescale is 3 years he said it would clearly be found as a case of misrepresentation in the same way antiques that are not stamped are given reproductive stamps. Original item sold as something else. It does matter that the original label is underneath and it is what it is advertised as that does not match what is underneath.

I baulked a little bit then asked the question - so what if it was played out as the cover up name . he then said he would get back to me which he did and his answer was thats just as bad and could be in breach of copyright " ADvertising a record by an artists as someone else" otherwise known as Plageurism (If Ive spelt it correct). To answer anyone! whats the point of cover ups today if as said by soulbrew thats its actually very rare( the record in question) no matter what.So why bother! Just take the credit for breaking it on the scene!

Your solicitor drank too much wine. It wouldn't even get to court. Soulbrew clearly identifies it as being a cover up so you would know it is not infact the Joyriders. it just wouldn't happen and i find it amazing people on here are talking like that.

What i also find amazing is someone putting it up for sale with gfull clip for all...means it must be pretty rare IMO.

I play cover-ups, which are cheap and no way would i put up on here. two different types oif c/u

[Guest Soulbrew]

Thanks Dave,

I might have made a mistake posting the full clip, but I'm pretty positive the track is not even on Shazam database, so no big deal.

On the other hand, I wanted to make sure that the person that will buy it "knows" perfectly what's inside the box music-wise.

Let's see what happens next then!

[Guest garysoul82]

Cover ups or(secret sounds) have always been part of the fun of the northern soul scene,wondering whats under the paper cover.

Many of them were so rare anyway they never needed hiding.

If somebody is buying a c/up,as long as they have good idea whats under the cover and they are happy with the price their paying

Icant see anything shady with that,or as Nev said earlier in this post,you could part with big money for something when uncovered

turns out to be easily available.

[Dylan]

Just say I bought the one Soulbrew was selling than all of a sudden a boxful of 500 come out of the woodwork I could in theory take a civil claim against the seller on the basis that the record wasnt infact the Joyriders at all and therefore the intention in a legal argument was to decieve as it wouldnt have been covered up in the first place.

I had a discussion with a solicitor over this some time ago over a few glasses of wine and he said because the civil claim timescale is 3 years he said it would clearly be found as a case of misrepresentation in the same way antiques that are not stamped are given reproductive stamps. Original item sold as something else. It does matter that the original label is underneath and it is what it is advertised as that does not match what is underneath.

I baulked a little bit then asked the question - so what if it was played out as the cover up name . he then said he would get back to me which he did and his answer was thats just as bad and could be in breach of copyright " ADvertising a record by an artists as someone else" otherwise known as Plageurism (If Ive spelt it correct). To answer anyone! whats the point of cover ups today if as said by soulbrew thats its actually very rare( the record in question) no matter what.So why bother! Just take the credit for breaking it on the scene!

Just had thought! What if a cover -up was put on ebay with a full explanation the label depicting the artist and title is not what the original label underneath says! Wonder if Ebay would pull it?

crikey you have given this some serious thought. I wouldn't want to sell you a c/u you might come after me with a layer

[Dylan]

.

I play cover-ups, which are cheap and no way would i put up on here. two different types oif c/u

cheap c/u's are just a bit of harmless fun.

[Dave Abbott]

cheap c/u's are just a bit of harmless fun.

not really, there is a reason to them too.

[Ernie Andrews]

crikey you have given this some serious thought. I wouldn't want to sell you a c/u you might come after me with a layer

A Layer of what Dylan?

[NEV]

A Layer of what Dylan?

Think this is missing from the last word Steve " W"

P.s

It is Saturday and still morning ...catch up old boy

[Ernie Andrews]

Think this is missing from the last word Steve " W"

P.s

It is Saturday and still morning ...catch up old boy

I know Nev I was waiting for Dylan to bite.

Weve snow up here Nev - Hope your ok

[NEV]

I know Nev I was waiting for Dylan to bite.

Weve snow up here Nev - Hope your ok

Heavy frost this morning mate...you guys hang onto the thick stuff for as long as can please

P.s apart from being off all week with back pain ....im ok thanks

[Guest sharmo 1]

I think you'd only be on dodgy ground if there was a record of the same title, and by the supposed cover up artist.

If I offered a brass laden instrumental as 'Blow Jobs' by G. Spot and the Heads, I'm pretty sure that everyone would recognise that as a cover up.

If I offered it as "Brain Washer" by Jr Walker, then I'd be potentially in trouble as that is a record. The problem though, is that the purchaser may want the cover up or Jr Walker.... You'd not know which.

I've just confused myself reading back over that, but hopefully you can see what I'm suggesting?

Had the Bowjobs on 12 inch mate .Simon.

[Dylan]

not really, there is a reason to them too.

let me guess the reason. Is it buying up cheap copies to sell when you've created some demand.

well spotted with the speling mistake ernie, my typing skills are not the best.

[Ged Parker]

An intersting question this one.

What is the person buying the cover-up actually buying? I'd argue for most people is the music and if there is a sound clip or the coer-up is well known by the cover up name then what's the problem.

People now actually us the term c/u in place of a label name. In the past the cover-up was often taken to the extreme of even staing a label to make the mystique complete.

If I were to buy a tune I didn't like as say as person who collects artists or labels and I wanted to 'complete' a discography then I think I'd be pretty pissed off.

It pays to know your subject in any case and if you pay big money because you like a tune and it then turn out to be very common well it was worth it to you when you bought it.

So for me as long as the seller clearly notes it as a cover up then no issue.

[Guest ScooterNik]

Had the Bowjobs on 12 inch mate .Simon.

Lucky you, mines a 7" flexi

[Ernie Andrews]

let me guess the reason. Is it buying up cheap copies to sell when you've created some demand.

well spotted with the speling mistake ernie, my typing skills are not the best.

Totally agree with you - someone covering up to create demand in order to sell at ahigher price than what it might be worth not covered up.

And I totally disagree with Ged. - If you bought say one a limited edition of 10 paintings for a thousand pounds only to find out their was a run of 500 that were now being punted out at 50 quid you would feel cheated even though you liked the painting!