Would Anyone Grade This Record Ex+ ? (Bought On Soul Source)

[Kevinkent]

bought this record on soul source. seller doesn't answer my mails. this is the worst record i ever bought sold as ex+. i can't believe it!

Just a thought - have you left FEEDBACK for this seller. You haven't named him and it would be nice for other potential buyers to be forewarned.

A simple search shows that a Ex+ copy sold on here recently, I don't know if it was your seller but he has a number of M sales still up, along with numerous Ex's and just a couple of VG's. Has made a fair few sales from his list too. Maybe he only sells decent copies, or maybe his rather sparse grading system is his get out clause ....

M Mint/ Probably unplayed

Ex Few light marks, still a nice copy

Vg More marks, maybe some surface noise but plays thru ok

Is this your seller? Has anyone else had problems?

No way of telling, 'cos no one has left any Feedback!

- Kev

Edited November 30, 2011 by KevinKent

[Swifty]

Selling records is a minefield imho , I must admit when I sell Records whether it be on here or on ebay (don't sell many , just bits)

, I tend to undergrade mostly but sometimes when I come to pack them in our kitchen/Dispatch Office they maybe don't look as clean as I thought as the light is a lot stronger. I also worry until I get feedback (must stop worrying so much!)

Like most I've had records better than described and worse. As I don't pay big bucks , although some are a lot to me, I tend not to complain and take the rough with the smooth (no pun intended ). I Know you should complain but I'm English you know.

As of yet I've had no complaints (touch wood) but if I did I would refund without question.

I also think that the grading system leaves a lot to be desired i.e. when a record is described as VG (Very Good) its usually

not is it? If you showed somebody a record described as VG it's unlikely they would say 'Gosh , that's in VERY GOOD condition'

is it?

Anyway sorry for rambling on

Cheers

Swifty

[Dylan]

I bought a "VG" record from someone here recently. I thought I was getting a great deal on a rare record.The labels were almost entirely ripped off. The vinyl was trashed. There was a huge warp and a crack. The record was like below poor. It did play through though.

the UK soul scene and the USA expectations of a vg record are two entirely different things.

I would be very nervous buying vg from a UK seller but far mroe confident if I were buying from the US.

the grading systems just don't get close.

and what is ex+ there is no such grade its just made up ??

[JOE TORQUAY]

agreed, a grade derived at by a combination is preferred, eg looks VG but plays NM or looks NM but plays with noise etc.

i agree with you kris definitely the best way to go in my opinion, honesty has got to be the best policy,

plus a sound clip of the record for sale would be ok as you could only blame yourself then,

i've noticed a lot of sellers on ebay are now just eye grading records, i've got a lot of records that look trashed but play vg+ or better so are ok for me, eye grading is a bit of a waste of time in my opinion,

joe.

[Chalky]

and what is ex+ there is no such grade its just made up ??

it always makes me smile when I see vg+++++++++++

Isn't Goldmine the standard for grading? It's what ebay go by isn't it? or advise its sellers to use?

[Dylan]

it always makes me smile when I see vg+++++++++++

Isn't Goldmine the standard for grading? It's what ebay go by isn't it? or advise its sellers to use?

I like the goldmine system and thats what I think everybody should use.

I feel more confident with the goldmine descriptions of what to expect when i'm dealing with US sellers (or Japanese)

there are exceptions in the UK not all overgrade.

I also know if I were to list a record as vg its less likely to sell even though it may play well and look pretty good.

[Swifty]

I noticed a seller who grades between 1-9 on top of P/VG/Vg+/EX etc and on 8 all it says is 'between 7 & 9 ?

[Pete S]

We've had a UK grading system here for over 30 years, we're not going to start using Goldmines now, especially as it just jumps from vg+ to mint with no middle ground. Record Collectors gradings are a good base but they are too inflexible and do not allow you to use plus or minus. I use plus and minus all the time. I won't use mint so I use mint minus. I use EX+, this means basically it is mint (or mint minus) but I've played it a couple of times. VG+ and EX- are not the same thing either.

[Steve Edgar]

What are the signs of a polished record? I've certainly got records that look good but play badly. The idea of making a record look better to the detriment of the sound quality is appalling,

With reference to "polishing" I always thought it was the old trick of using black boot polish on a vinyl record to reduce the graying effect of over played (vinyl) records? to con someone into thinking they looked good?

steve

[Chalky]

We've had a UK grading system here for over 30 years, we're not going to start using Goldmines now, especially as it just jumps from vg+ to mint with no middle ground. Record Collectors gradings are a good base but they are too inflexible and do not allow you to use plus or minus. I use plus and minus all the time. I won't use mint so I use mint minus. I use EX+, this means basically it is mint (or mint minus) but I've played it a couple of times. VG+ and EX- are not the same thing either.

Maybe the Goldmine with Ex? It's better than the system(s) we have over here, or don't have in some cases. Ex+ would be NM which is what most US Sellers seem to use when I've seen it used.

[Pete S]

Maybe the Goldmine with Ex? It's better than the system(s) we have over here, or don't have in some cases. Ex+ would be NM which is what most US Sellers seem to use when I've seen it used.

Yeah agree that EX+ is NM, just that I never use NM as M- is already my top grade.

[Kris Holmes]

I noticed a seller who grades between 1-9 on top of P/VG/Vg+/EX etc and on 8 all it says is 'between 7 & 9 ?

i think this is the Record Graveyard store in Hamtramck (if not they do it too). I've found I can confidently buy anything from them graded 7 & up & be happy with the record. They are a good store & a good ebay dealer.

[Soul Shrews]

So why not just use the "goldmine" system as long as we all understand it ?

I 've bought from the states for years using this system with no probs ...sometimes with happy results..vg+ has been minty etc

Cheers Paul

[Kris Holmes]

^{Ex- is totally the worst grade ever, avoid.}

[Kris Holmes]

So why not just use the "goldmine" system as long as we all understand it ?

Because the UK can't live without "Ex".

[Chalky]

i think this is the Record Graveyard store in Hamtramck (if not they do it too). I've found I can confidently buy anything from them graded 7 & up & be happy with the record. They are a good store & a good ebay dealer.

I've seen a few use it.

[Modernsoulsucks]

I am thinking about this grading scale and will post probably tomorrow for all of you to comment and hopefully after a bit of tinkering we can reach agreement.

I think after that it will be up to individual sellers to state something along the lines of these 45s are graded as per site guidelines. If they don't, exercise caution.

As for scratched 45s. One scratch means VG not nearly Mint apart from the scratch. As some have said a few words after the actual grade go a long way.

ROD

[Ulrich Leitl]

bought this record on soul source. seller doesn't answer my mails. this is the worst record i ever bought sold as ex+. i can't believe it!

good news - the seller sent me a mail. he told me not beeing online for a couple of days. i'm returning the record.

[Kris Holmes]

P/F -> G -> VG- -> VG -> VG+/Ex -> VG++/Ex+ -> NM-/NM/Ex++/M- -> M

With anything VG+/Ex upwards being fileable unless extreme rarity would cause you to buy lower grades. Ex is equal to VG+ because I really think it would be a struggle to raise it back & generate buyer confidence in that grade although in a perfect situation it should equal VG++.

In line with what I've come to expect in today's marketplace, it could break down like so:

M = perfect

NM-/NM/Ex++/M- = sounds perfect maybe has a mark to affect the look ever so slightly.

VG++/Ex+ = sounds almost perfect maybe a few marks affecting the look

VG+/Ex = plays with slight noise which doesn't overpower the music & may have visible marks

VG = plays with noise & has visible marks, not ideal to file.

VG- = plays with more noise & has more visible marks, not a fileable copy unless it's uber-rare.

G/P/F = don't go near unless it's mythically rare.

[Swifty]

i think this is the Record Graveyard store in Hamtramck (if not they do it too). I've found I can confidently buy anything from them graded 7 & up & be happy with the record. They are a good store & a good ebay dealer.

Kris , I'm sure they are great to deal with , plus I'm not sure who it was but I wasn't having a go at the quality , was just pointing out the different ways of grading.

Cheers

Swifty

[Kris Holmes]

Kris , I'm sure they are great to deal with , plus I'm not sure who it was but I wasn't having a go at the quality , was just pointing out the different ways of grading.

Cheers

Swifty

I didn't take it as having a go at the quality, I just wanted to share a positive experience with such a grading system.

[Swifty]

I didn't take it as having a go at the quality, I just wanted to share a positive experience with such a grading system.

OK mate

[NEV]

good news - the seller sent me a mail. he told me not beeing online for a couple of days. i'm returning the record.

Alls well that ends well

Grading is a real minefield and imho ,is a guide as most records are unique ..meaning no two have the same scuffs /scratches etc .Some have lots of gloss and clean labels but play with crackles ..some look f***ed but play great ...try to be honest with descriptions of any defects is my policy

But the issue should really be about communication between buyer /seller and if not happy with record ,either compensate or offer refund

[Premium Stuff]

I am thinking about this grading scale and will post probably tomorrow for all of you to comment and hopefully after a bit of tinkering we can reach agreement.

I think after that it will be up to individual sellers to state something along the lines of these 45s are graded as per site guidelines. If they don't, exercise caution.

As for scratched 45s. One scratch means VG not nearly Mint apart from the scratch. As some have said a few words after the actual grade go a long way.

ROD

Rod

I posted a thread on this topic a few months ago suggesting a SS grading scale/policy/guidelines. I volunteered to put it together but there was no real interest then.

Glad you are looking at this now and don't see why a system agreed by SS members can't be part of the 'house rules' for selling on here.

Happy to input if that would be helpful.

Cheers

Richard

[Guest DELORENZO]

I think selling is always a minefield, but with myself on Ebay I always recorded a soundbite of the actual record, photographed the label and graded under a strong lamp, mistakes can be made when rushing I know, sorry Pete :-) the record in question visually is certainly not in the realms of EX, vg/vg+ depending on sound quality, maybe........ Just glad I don't sell anymore (although the mrs would like me to get rid of all the records under the beds upstairs) but I managed to get over 4360 100% on feedback, so I did something right, await to be shot down lol

[Modernsoulsucks]

Good to hear you are now sorted Raresoulnet.

Kris, had a look at that. Slightly complicated as you seem to be mixing play and visual grades. I mean a M- 45 cant be M- if it hisses all the way through. It's VG or less. I think you expect a certasin sound quality anyway from the visual grade but I will take that on board cos you've obviously put some thought into it.

And yes Richard PM me with it. Less work I have to do the better.

ROD

[boba]

I don't think an explicitly written grading scale would make everyone grade the same. People see what they want to see. Although an explicit list would at least determine whether there was an "EX" grade and whether VG is more like Poor.

[Kris Holmes]

Kris, had a look at that. Slightly complicated as you seem to be mixing play and visual grades. I mean a M- 45 cant be M- if it hisses all the way through. It's VG or less. I think you expect a certasin sound quality anyway from the visual grade but I will take that on board cos you've obviously put some thought into it.

ROD

I think you are agreeing with what I meant, but maybe what I jotted out above isn't making it clear what I meant. So yeah, um, I agree.

M- can't be M- if it is visually M- but plays noisy. In that case you would have to say something like looks M- but plays with surface noise or sounds VG but looks M-. Grading just visually is a minefield.

[Kris Holmes]

I don't think an explicitly written grading scale would make everyone grade the same. People see what they want to see. Although an explicit list would at least determine whether there was an "EX" grade and whether VG is more like Poor.

yeah, some people will continue to grade "optimistically" regardless of what the scale is unfortunately. People would also refuse to use the scale & continue to go by what they've been using because they've been selling records since whenever & they know best & no one on a internet message board is going to dictate to them how to grade a 45.

This is what we are facing

[boba]

yeah, some people will continue to grade "optimistically" regardless of what the scale is unfortunately. People would also refuse to use the scale & continue to go by what they've been using because they've been selling records since whenever & they know best & no one on a internet message board is going to dictate to them how to grade a 45.

This is what we are facing

also there are the people who just sign up here to sell who don't read the guidelines

[Kris Holmes]

so many variables & ways for things to go so terribly wrong

[George G]

re: polished records, while some people are unscrupulous enough to polish their records, some people here may have gotten records from certain shady dealers in the states who polish their records, and they don't know what polishing is and what to look for, and they pass on the records as is. I find it's relatively rare for UK sellers to polish records. There are some australian sellers I've dealt with that do, I just avoid them now.

I've bought 1000s of record from US dealers in the 13 years I've been on eBay and at the most maybe a couple were polished, nothing I can remember specifically. Then, 2 out of 10 (I said before that I bought 6-7 records from Soul Source but upon further review, as they say in the NFL, it's probably 10) bought off here were polished. I am well aware of a few US dealers who sell polished records, I don't buy from them. I don't think that the UK is the only source of polished records. I DO expect that a dealer would recognize such and mention that in the description. It's not a deal breaker, it's just a more accurate description of the condition.

After the one expensive 45 I returned because of overgrading and polishing, I decided I won't buy an expensive record without a good quality sound file and a label shot (the record I returned had some minor water damage unmentioned by the seller).

[boba]

I've bought 1000s of record from US dealers in the 13 years I've been on eBay and at the most maybe a couple were polished, nothing I can remember specifically. Then, 2 out of 10 (I said before that I bought 6-7 records from Soul Source but upon further review, as they say in the NFL, it's probably 10) bought off here were polished. I am well aware of a few US dealers who sell polished records, I don't buy from them. I don't think that the UK is the only source of polished records. I DO expect that a dealer would recognize such and mention that in the description. It's not a deal breaker, it's just a more accurate description of the condition.

Several US dealers who were great before recently started polishing records. One directly admitted it when I confronted him and another (in the same city) denied it and said he would "report me to ebay" for my accusations, but it was the second polished record in a row that I had gotten from him and I had a record of me asking about it the first time so he was obviously lying.

[paultp]

It is really difficult to grade records, anything below M- should have a description of what the record is like and a sound file, a scan is always nice too.

I agree with anyone who says that UK sellers tend to over grade, though this generally applies to occasional sellers rather than regular dealers.

[Benji]

I almost facepalm about the inflationary use of M- or NM. Both grades mean practically unplayed (give or take 1 or 2 spins). How likely is a 40+ years old record to be unplayed?

When I'm selling the best grade I use is EX+ apart from the rare occasions I stumble upon a really unplayed record.

[Chalky]

I almost facepalm about the inflationary use of M- or NM. Both grades mean practically unplayed (give or take 1 or 2 spins). How likely is a 40+ years old record to be unplayed?

When I'm selling the best grade I use is EX+ apart from the rare occasions I stumble upon a really unplayed record.

There's loads unplayed, if old store stock then doubt they have seen a turntable. Bet there's a few dealers with stock that has come straight out of a warehouse or from a distributor.

[Jumpinjoan]

also there are the people who just sign up here to sell who don't read the guidelines

I have noticed a lot of intros recently where people have said they will be selling records on here. Nothing wrong with that of course.

[Chalky]

I haven't had to my knowledge one polished record from a UK dealer. I know it has happened but I know collectors who have suffered this at the hands of foreign dealers/sellers. I doubt it is down to dishonesty much of the grading over here simply a case of how it has been and how the system has worked over here for years. Of course there's a few who are dishonest and trying to con someone but crooks are everywhere, not just here in the UK so the blame cannot be solely placed on UK dealers. There are plenty of con artists, crooks and cheats in Europe and the US as well.

As said if selling records you should clearly state your returns policy, postage and any other information that could be relevant. If in doubt ask the dealer or don't buy. Make sure you are 100% about every deal no matter where it is from. Make sure you have the name and address of the seller before parting with any money. How many times do you see a sale with no name, just a paypal address.

I would also think twice about using gift payment via paypal if you don;t know the seller.

[Prophonics 2029]

What are the signs of a polished record? I've certainly got records that look good but play badly. The idea of making a record look better to the detriment of the sound quality is appalling,

Hi Miss G, a polished or skimmed record has if any small marks in the plastic rounded off and will have lost the sharp edge to the mark or scuff, glaze or shine will be affected as well.

I had a G- Panic Is On demo, for personal use! I used some Brasso (hence my term Polish) and removed 80% of the marks but the disc was frooked, sold it on then a week later its in the sales box as M-? more elbow grease and Tcut.

I think the term skimmed makes it sound professional like there is some special equipment used by a boffin in a white coat and not a bottle of car cleaner with Granny's old silk bloomers to buff it up.

A funny record is Cub The Wanderers Somebody Else's Sweetheart, A side is clean but the B side looks polished on all the copy's I have seen.

[boba]

one sign of a polished record you usually can see the large scratches that look totally different, like dull and cut in half. i imagine that a lot of the uk people that have polished records didn't do it themselves but instead got the records from certain US dealers and were ignorant themselves as to what a polished record looks like.

[Margo]

Here's me thinking I've got boxes full of trashed VG records when in fact they're all Ex+

that'll be sandpaper hands tony's fault

[Chalky]

isn't there a machine that will "polish" your discs?

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Obviously,theres a lot feeling about these matters.....here`s some personal observations......Essentially, when buying or selling on here,youre trusting the other party to be honest. Every deal on here is a private matter between two individuals. When one of the two doesnt feel satisfied with their part of the deal its up to both of them to sort it out amicably. The problems seem to nearly always stem from a lack of communication from one side. In a situation where the buyer feels like theyve been mis -sold a record[e.g.in a condition they dont feel is acceptable] and the seller wont have any contact with them, this has to be seen as a flagrant breach of rules for the forum and should be dealt with in the strictest terms.......

I think its a good idea,for any sales on the forum to have all contact between the two parties via the forums PM system. That way, if anything goes wrong,you can include Rod or another of the moderators into the conversation so that they can see the actual contact or lack of contact and then make an informed judgement on the situation. Just a thought......

Secondly,paying with Paypal as "A Gift"........as i know from personal experience,this is a definate no-no as far as im concerned. Ask yourself this....Would you go up to someone you didnt know in the street and give them a substantial amount of money ? Course you wouldnt..... So why then do many of us continue to use this method of paying for records when,in effect,youre doing the self same thing via email ? Lets be clear about this. If you pay someone as "A Gift" youre giving them that money and, in the process, laying yourself open to no protection from paypal at all.Not like you would with a normal purchase thats for sure. The only person to gain is the seller who pays no fees at all....

Unless you personally know or trust the seller then dont take a chance.......

And, lastly, gradings. I dont really know how this can ever work when some of us are conservative and honest and often undergrade items and others it seems use dark glasses and wishfull thinking..........

Ivor

Edited December 1, 2011 by Ivor Jones

[boba]

Obviously,theres a lot feeling about these matters.....here`s some personal observations......Essentially, when buying or selling on here,youre trusting the other party to be honest. Every deal on here is a private matter between two individuals. When one of the two doesnt feel satisfied with their part of the deal its up to both of them to sort it out amicably. The problems seem to nearly always stem from a lack of communication from one side. In a situation where the buyer feels like theyve been mis -sold a record[e.g.in a condition they dont feel is acceptable] and the seller wont have any contact with them, this has to be seen as a flagrant breach of rules for the forum and should be dealt with in the strictest terms.......

I think its a good idea,for any sales on the forum to have all contact between the two parties via the forums PM system. That way, if anything goes wrong,you can include Rod or another of the moderators into the conversation so that they can see the actual contact or lack of contact and then make an informed judgement on the situation. Just a thought......

on this forum you have to interact later with the person who sold you the record. People are also very hotheaded. Often it's not worth complaining to the seller which will probably blow up then or later. I just write off the seller as a person to be avoided.

[Pete S]

Paypal gift - Unless you personally know or trust the seller then dont take a chance.......

Over 2000 paypal gifts sent to me now and not one single problem, complaint or instance where I've stolen the money Ivor.

[Chalky]

Over 2000 paypal gifts sent to me now and not one single problem, complaint or instance where I've stolen the money Ivor.

The vast majority know you Pete and your reputation. Ivor said avoid unless you don't know or trust them and I'm inclined to agree with him.

[Pete S]

The vast majority know you Pete and your reputation. Ivor said avoid unless you don't know or trust them and I'm inclined to agree with him.

He said definite no-no Chalky - that's tarring everyone with the same brush. Most of my sales are on commission, 20%, that's why I ask for paypal gift.

But I suppose if you don't know the person it's best to be cautious.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Pete S

[Missgoldie]

Secondly,paying with Paypal as "A Gift"........as i know from personal experience,this is a definate no-no as far as im concerned. Ask yourself this....Would you go up to someone you didnt know in the street and give them a substantial amount of money ? Course you wouldnt..... So why then do many of us continue to use this method of paying for records when,in effect,youre doing the self same thing via email ? Lets be clear about this. If you pay someone as "A Gift" youre giving them that money and, in the process, laying yourself open to no protection from paypal at all.Not like you would with a normal purchase thats for sure. The only person to gain is the seller who pays no fees at all....

I agree with this, gift payments to sellers you don't know and trust is just inviting trouble and I always try to avoid it with bigger ticket items, I'd rather just add the 4% and have some security.

[hrtshpdbox]

There's no doubt or wiggle-room about the grade of that record; it's visually VG Minus and, since any seller worth his salt will use the lesser grade when considering visual and audio condition, it's therefore VG Minus regardless of how well it plays. Nothing wrong, of course, with a seller stating "visually VG Minus, plays better" and (assuming the statement is true) backing that up with a soundclip.

[dthedrug]

:hatsoff2:HI ALL...........................NO! IT LOOKS VG, DAVE