'the Bottle' Which Is The Original 45 ?

[Swifty]

Sorry ! I know this has been before but can't find it . Just got a copy of Gil Scott Heron - The Bottle

on Strata East (French) Picture Sleeve. Is this the first 45 of the record.?

Cheers

Swifty

[boba]

Sorry ! I know this has been before but can't find it . Just got a copy of Gil Scott Heron - The Bottle

on Strata East (French) Picture Sleeve. Is this the first 45 of the record.?

Cheers

Swifty

It's the original version of the song if that's what you're asking. In popsike there appears to be some strata-east US promos which I guess would be more "original" unless they are all bootlegs or something.

[Swifty]

Thanks Boba , I know someone mentioned the US promos but I seem to think it was thought they were Boots .

Swifty

[boba]

Thanks Boba , I know someone mentioned the US promos but I seem to think it was thought they were Boots .

Swifty

there are some in popsike and the ones I saw didn't mention boots and seemed to sell for as much as the foreign press. However, I don't really know anything about the 45 pressing of this track so they might be boots -- hopefully someone on here can give you a more authoritative answer.

[Swifty]

Just looked on popsike Boba and now more confused , as somebody states the French Pic. Sleeve version is the only original 45 but

then there is another American copy where the guy is claiming it is the only original 45 also . Talking about the Strata-East labels.

I know I used to play it off a Strata-East Album because I belive at the time it wasn't available on 45 ( I think!).

Swifty

[Pete S]

They pressed the bootleg as a French 45 lookalike, but if you've bought it in it's ps, it's likely to be real and also the original issue

[Swifty]

They pressed the bootleg as a French 45 lookalike, but if you've bought it in it's ps, it's likely to be real and also the original issue

Thanks Pete , yes the picture sleeve actually looks as if it's been stored for years and looks old but unused (if you know what I mean )

and the record is nice and minty.

Cheers

Swifty

[boba]

They pressed the bootleg as a French 45 lookalike, but if you've bought it in it's ps, it's likely to be real and also the original issue

but are the US copies bootlegs or did they just imitate the french press for the bootleg?

[Patto]

This is my copy which i believe to be the U.S original copy as listed in Manships Guide

[Pete S]

This is my copy which i believe to be the U.S original copy as listed in Manships Guide

Weird one that as it has the catalogue number for the LP that it comes from, maybe all singles did?

https://strata-east.blogspot.com/2008/03/ses-19742-gil-scott-heronbrian-jackson.html

[Guest miff]

Heres the previous thread

[Val (Chunky)]

The French 45 also comes with and without the 'drunken Intro'

[Swifty]

Heres the previous thread

Cheers Miff , buggered if I could find it! , just read it all again and still not sure , mine is the earlier French issue with just Gil Scott Heron and 399A stamped ( approx 2ish mm from runout at approx 1'o'clock Watch out JM !)

Cheers

Swifty

p.s. So have over the years have we come to a conclusion which is the first 45 (as taken off the album 'Winter in America' ?)

[Mike Lofthouse]

p.s. So have over the years have we come to a conclusion which is the first 45 (as taken off the album 'Winter in America' ?)

Never been able to get an absolute consensus on here. I am absolutely certain that the only way you could play it as a new release - 74/75 - was from the album - can't believe for a minute that if a 45 was available Levine did not have it or could not get it! Then the French 45 came along and I bought 4 copies in Germany in ' 76 for me and my mates one of which was swapped for the album because someone was desperate for the 45. The label in Patto's scan has never looked right to me - the title spacing the numbering of it ( 1. of what ?) and the font looks very modern to me IMHO

[Patto]

Never been able to get an absolute consensus on here. I am absolutely certain that the only way you could play it as a new release - 74/75 - was from the album - can't believe for a minute that if a 45 was available Levine did not have it or could not get it! Then the French 45 came along and I bought 4 copies in Germany in ' 76 for me and my mates one of which was swapped for the album because someone was desperate for the 45. The label in Patto's scan has never looked right to me - the title spacing the numbering of it ( 1. of what ?) and the font looks very modern to me IMHO

Suppose what we need is for anyone out there to state the date when they purchased a US issue then we could tag a date to its appearence.Don't know what you mean about the modern looking font though.

[Guest]

Not 100% sure because I've never heard it but been told that the spoken intro is missing from the US 45.

Martin.

[Patto]

Not 100% sure because I've never heard it but been told that the spoken intro is missing from the US 45.

Martin.

Martin it starts at Uno,Dos,Tres,Quatro but no slurred spoken intro

[Mike Lofthouse]

Suppose what we need is for anyone out there to state the date when they purchased a US issue then we could tag a date to its appearence.Don't know what you mean about the modern looking font though.

I not doubting that it is a proper legit copy - I just don't remember it being around when the track was new - '74. Never saw it listed - it was always talked about as an album only track and I remember getting very excited when I located the French 45's. Don't remember it mentioned in B&S or Black Music (which of course was my only source of reference back then) And back then I only bought new release Soul.

[Mike Lofthouse]

The other thing that looks 'odd' to me is the message on the outside of the label - 'All rights...unauthorized public performance ...etc - you didn't see that very often on US 45's - normally it was distribution and manufacturing details - well it does on the ones I have :o)

[Swifty]

Thanks to all , it's one of them strange things . I'm no expert but the USA looks dodgy to me (but I don't know why, if you know what I mean)

Swifty

[Patto]

The other thing that looks 'odd' to me is the message on the outside of the label - 'All rights...unauthorized public performance ...etc - you didn't see that very often on US 45's - normally it was distribution and manufacturing details - well it does on the ones I have :o)

The album has the same outside writing on it i seem to recall or does it

[Davetay]

If you want the orig, stick with the "Winter in America" L.P.

[Davetay]

Never been able to get an absolute consensus on here. I am absolutely certain that the only way you could play it as a new release - 74/75 - was from the album - can't believe for a minute that if a 45 was available Levine did not have it or could not get it! Then the French 45 came along and I bought 4 copies in Germany in ' 76 for me and my mates one of which was swapped for the album because someone was desperate for the 45. The label in Patto's scan has never looked right to me - the title spacing the numbering of it ( 1. of what ?) and the font looks very modern to me IMHO

When Levine played this in 74, 100% deffo off LP.

He even told me that Black Wax in London had it in limited stock, that's where I got it from at the time.

[Kris Holmes]

comparing it to the Lee Cooper & Shirley Scott 45s.

The catalog number & "1." on the label look right, as do the edge of label credits. Differences being that the Lee Cooper is 45 only so had no LP catalog number or LP label design to copy. The Shirley Scott is from slightly later in 1974, so would be a good comparison. My gut feeling is that the US 45 was just extremely tough to locate from the UK at the time but is in fact contemporary of the LP.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Kris Holmes

[Ian Dewhirst]

Not a bootleg but extremely rare.

Ian D

[Patto]

There you go that label is very similar to the Scott heron 45 even down to the outer label rights writing.Well done Kris thats satisfied me its the US copy for me

[Mike Lofthouse]

The 'demo' version of The Bottle proves nothing ...and the Shirley Scott looks even more dodgy with the 'italics' . The Lee cooper looks pukka. I'm gonna stick with what I knew back then - the album or the french 45 for me!!

[Ian Dewhirst]

The 'demo' version of The Bottle proves nothing ...and the Shirley Scott looks even more dodgy with the 'italics' . The Lee cooper looks pukka. I'm gonna stick with what I knew back then - the album or the french 45 for me!!

I picked it up in the U.S. from a load of promos in Highland Records (the main 'Disco' shop in Hollywood) in '76, so I'm reasonably certain it's kosher. Strata East being a Jazz label got taken by surprise when the album track started getting played in the New York clubs, so it makes sense that they would have pressed up some promos in the hope of picking up radio plays. Being a small label they probably only pressed a couple of hundred but I'm pretty sure that these would have been before the French 45. There's absolutely nothing to suggest it's a boot and if it was you'd have expected a few more to surface by now.

Ian D

[Kris Holmes]

The 'demo' version of The Bottle proves nothing ...and the Shirley Scott looks even more dodgy with the 'italics' . The Lee cooper looks pukka. I'm gonna stick with what I knew back then - the album or the french 45 for me!!

there's no way that the Shirley Scott isn't pukka, no reason at all to boot that. Lee Cooper is earlier hence the different design.

The only argument here for me is whether or not the US 45 was released in 1974 & is contemporary to the LP. The fact that LPs with hype stickers promoting the single exist point fairly strongly that's the case. That is why I am going out on a limb to state that the US 45 is first. So US LP or 45 then French p/s 45.

[Ian Dewhirst]

there's no way that the Shirley Scott isn't pukka, no reason at all to boot that. Lee Cooper is earlier hence the different design.

The only argument here for me is whether or not the US 45 was released in 1974 & is contemporary to the LP. The fact that LPs with hype stickers promoting the single exist point fairly strongly that's the case. That is why I am going out on a limb to state that the US 45 is first. So US LP or 45 then French p/s 45.

I'm in complete agreement except I think the promo single may have come after the album. I think when the company realised that they had a potential crossover (in the old sense of the word) disco hit then they probably rushed to get the promo 45 to the none Jazz stations. Most club DJ's would have played the album cut (this was pre 12"), so I guess the U.S. 45 promo was the most efficient way to get the track to more people.

I think they missed a trick actually. If they'd have promoted this to all the U.S. RnB stations at the time, I reckon they'd have scored a Top 20 RnB hit. These were Jazz guys and they weren't geared up for wider hits.

Ian D

[purist]

My thoughts are based purely on memory, so not 100% fact, but remember buying it before the first Ritz ( which I think was spring 1975, wasn't it?) because of who I was with when I went to the Ritz, and this was the album "because it's only available on the album", which was quite unusual in those days.

I think that the company pressed some 45's maybe a year (or two) afterwards when asked by somebody connected to the scene, and then they turned up here in small quantities at venues, mail order, etc., but anybody seen brandishing the 45 was summarily put down because "that's not original mate" ( because they were custom pressed by the company for "us", like several of the major companies did, CSP, Okeh, etc)

When the French ones started to turn up in more significant quantities it was said that they were 'the first issue', but again they followed the album by 18 months/two years, making all singles 2nd way to own the track.

imho the album is oVo, all 7inchers ain't

[Ian Dewhirst]

My thoughts are based purely on memory, so not 100% fact, but remember buying it before the first Ritz ( which I think was spring 1975, wasn't it?) because of who I was with when I went to the Ritz, and this was the album "because it's only available on the album", which was quite unusual in those days.

For sure the only way to get it in the U.K. was on the album. However, we were lugging a few albums around at the time - Betty Wright, Bobby Hutton, Skull Snaps, Thelma Houston, The Miracles, The Moments etc, etc so it wasn't too unusual.......

I think that the company pressed some 45's maybe a year (or two) afterwards when asked by somebody connected to the scene, and then they turned up here in small quantities at venues, mail order, etc., but anybody seen brandishing the 45 was summarily put down because "that's not original mate" ( because they were custom pressed by the company for "us", like several of the major companies did, CSP, Okeh, etc)

I don't remember this at all. Maybe it happened while I was away or off the scene but if this was the case you'd have thought that more of 'em would have surfaced since. In my experience I've never seen another U.S. promo anywhere and boy, have I been around LOL. I always thought it was rare, I never for one minute thought it was a boot or 'pressed for demand' reissue.Looks real enough for me.

her

When the French ones started to turn up in more significant quantities it was said that they were 'the first issue', but again they followed the album by 18 months/two years, making all singles 2nd way to own the track.

imho the album is oVo, all 7inchers ain't

Now the French ones I'm pretty sure were pressed for demand, not least 'cos they were on Soulbowl's list at the time and I think 1000's of 'em came in.

So sorry Purist. Mine's real, the only one in the world and not for sale LOL.....

Ian D

[Northern Soul Uk]

I know this also came out on the 'Champaign' label as a 12", did it ever get released as a 'Champaign' 7"?

[Dean Rudland]

Steve

It came out as a 7 on Champaign, I have one here.

Dean

[Soulman]

I Have the 45 but remember also having a 12"... in fact I think my mate still has a copy too. Why would they boot a 7 and a 12 with all same details etc for what would realistically be a limited market. The 12" was certainly genuine as far as I'm concerned. Thick, heavy vinyl, stamped, kosher label etc etc. OK maybe the 7" could be considered a re-issue. Must admit I'm a bit lost on this one but there is one thing for sure.... it's a f*ckin' belting tune that deserves its place in the annals of Northern Soul history.... and it's 70's.... eat that oldies fans

[Guest]

Martin it starts at Uno,Dos,Tres,Quatro but no slurred spoken intro

Thanks for clearing that one up for me Patto, thought the US copy went straight into the music

Martin

[Sebastian]

Make of it what you will, but references to "The Bottle" as being a US "hit single" appeared in Billboard Magazine in the November 9 and November 23 issues of 1974. See scans below.

References to the album "Winter In America" which the tune was taken from appeared in Billboard Magazine from late June 1974 up until about January 1975.

9 November 1974:

23 November 1974:

[Mike Lofthouse]

Make of it what you will, but references to "The Bottle" as being a US "hit single" appeared in Billboard Magazine in the November 9 and November 23 issues of 1974. See scans below.

References to the album "Winter In America" which the tune was taken from appeared in Billboard Magazine from late June 1974 up until about January 1975.

9 November 1974:

23 November 1974:

Interesting stuff Sebastian - is it listed in any Billboard Singles chart from that period?

[Sebastian]

Interesting stuff Sebastian - is it listed in any Billboard Singles chart from that period?

Sorry, can't find any mention of it in the singles charts.

[Gogger]

Sorry, can't find any mention of it in the singles charts.

they could be talking about the version by brother to brother which was in the charts at the time.

[Gogger]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bottle

[Ian Dewhirst]

Make of it what you will, but references to "The Bottle" as being a US "hit single" appeared in Billboard Magazine in the November 9 and November 23 issues of 1974. See scans below.

References to the album "Winter In America" which the tune was taken from appeared in Billboard Magazine from late June 1974 up until about January 1975.

9 November 1974:

23 November 1974:

I think they confused 'hit track from the album' with 'hit single' LOL. "The Bottle" was never a U.S. Strata East single apart from the promo.

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

https://en.wikipedia....wiki/The_Bottle

That Wikipedia info is wrong too. "The Bottle" didn't make the U.S. RnB singles chart at all until the live version was issued by Arista in 1977 and even then it only made No.98.

Needless to say nothing on Strata East charted in the RnB charts, least of all a 'hit' single that was never even released LOL.

Ian D

[Kris Holmes]

I think they confused 'hit track from the album' with 'hit single' LOL. "The Bottle" was never a U.S. Strata East single apart from the promo.

Ian D

so does that make this issue & the one Patto posted above a boot?

[Ian Dewhirst]

so does that make this issue & the one Patto posted above a boot?

No I don't think so. I should have said 'at the time of original release' perhaps. Maybe those were a later re-press perhaps? I just can't understand why I seldom see U.S. copies and virtually no promos. Weird......

Ian D

[Kris Holmes]

there is definitely something not adding up, if it was a "hit" there should be more copies around & if they are boots there should be more copies around too. Maybe Strata-East did drop the ball & only got the 45s out for the tail end of the Bottle's popularity in late 74 & the 45s kind of just didn't sell at the time & were destroyed. Someone needs to get in touch with Stanley Cowell or Charles Tolliver & put us out of our speculation once & for all

[pikeys dog]

You could have a 'hit' in the US without selling any 45s as many charts were based on Radio plays rather than sales.

[Sebastian]

Maybe Strata-East did drop the ball & only got the 45s out for the tail end of the Bottle's popularity in late 74 & the 45s kind of just didn't sell at the time & were destroyed.

Sounds like the most likely scenario in my opinion. Once the 7" reached the market, most people who were interested had probably already bought the LP or went with the Brother To Brother version which appeared in the charts during the autumn of 1974.

By the way, as far as the french issue is concerned, the record with catalouge number directly after "The Bottle" was issued in 1975.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Sebastian

[Ian Dewhirst]

there is definitely something not adding up, if it was a "hit" there should be more copies around & if they are boots there should be more copies around too. Maybe Strata-East did drop the ball & only got the 45s out for the tail end of the Bottle's popularity in late 74 & the 45s kind of just didn't sell at the time & were destroyed. Someone needs to get in touch with Stanley Cowell or Charles Tolliver & put us out of our speculation once & for all

I think that's probably exactly what happened. By the time they got around to dealing with a single, people had bought the LP or moved on. They may have had a difficult time constantly re-pressing the abum which would have eaten their cash-flow and time (I think the originals were all gatefolds weren't they?).

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

You could have a 'hit' in the US without selling any 45s as many charts were based on Radio plays rather than sales.

I'm going by the Billboard Top 100 RnB charts which are the most accurate overall. I doubt if a record could have made the Top 100 without any physical sales back then...........

Ian D