Northern

[Guest gordon russell]

where was all this stuff played back in the 60's/70's in the states?.....seems totally natural music when played at this countries nighters ect ect.......just can,t imagine it played at clubs at all stateside

[KevH]

I guess some of it was Peggy.With the limited releases cos of money,would have had a knock on in respect of being shortlived locally,therefore no more pressed up - no national release.

Some of it would have been played on the beach scene as well.

When you had the big soul artists recording in the States in the 60's/early 70's,it would have been a hard world to break into.So many records bombed - that's where we come in.(ie: carstairs and levine.).

We love an underdog, so we do.

[Guest garysoul82]

.Good post.

I think because of the segregation in certain states the local labels suffered from lack of media

coverage.Do you think if they have had a media back then like we have today would the northern soul scene

have ever existed.It seems ironic,but it is those great artists lack of success that gave us the scene we love today.

Edited November 17, 2011 by garysoul82

[Guest ritchie]

African Americans had "Record Hops" just as White Americans did, I guess a lot of the stuff we call Northern would have been played at local do's like this.

Good post

[Irish Spinner]

Here ya go mate they never knew wot they had till we told em.

Well Roger Eagles first Dj at The Twisted Wheel, sure told em an extract from his last ever interview.

I recently met this black American guy who came over to see me. He's at University in The States and he's doing a thesis on Northern British Appreciation of Black American Music. He'd been to see everybody on the Northern Scene...all the Northern DJ's and so on they all said 'go and see Roger Eagle - he started it all'. Eventually he turned up here with a camera and I blew his head off completely. I started playing him tunes...he went away with a cassette - with what you would probably think are fairly obvious tunes on it. His mind was completely wrecked. This guy's in his 40's, maybe 50's and he's a serious man ....and he's never heard Ray Charles! I said, if you want to talk about Northern Soul there's plenty of people better placed than I am to tell you ...but if you want the history about white Northern English appreciation of Black American music you talk to me! I'll straighten it out for you. I did.I said: this is where it started in the 50's. When it was exciting. I don't want to know about white artists ripping off black artists ...that's bollocks. Everybody covered everyone else! Nat King Cole - one of the most successful black entertainers of all time - he would cover white show tunes, pop tunes, blues tunes - across all boundaries. He didn't care. Ray Charles was one of the first black artists to see the possibilities. I said to this guy 'have you ever heard "I'm Moving On" by Ray Charles? As far as I know it's one of the first cases of a black artist covering a Country & Western song - a Hank Snow tune'. I had to put it on tape...he'd never heard it. I love the train rhythm through the track building up towards the end. As far as I'm concerned a tune this strong ought to be played. I bet you've heard it so many times without really clocking just how strong a track it is. It's a head record. Atlantic were starting to experiment with different instrumentation. Moving away from the basic drum, bass, guitar, sax and piano. They put a distorted pedal steel guitar on it. It's one of my all time favourite records.

Question on being a Dj ... I was happy playing the music that I loved. I would play six or seven hours solid single-handedly - with just an hour or so's break for the band - for £3 a night. I was happy playing the music that I loved but with hindsight I would have appreciated a little more money.... Wot a man Roger used to get a lot of records from Guy Stevens (Sue UK Records London)

that's where we come in.(ie: Stevens & Eagles.)

Atb Irish

Edited November 17, 2011 by Irish Spinner

[KevH]

Great post Irish.Timeline before my "carstairs + levine" quote by about 6/8 years?.

Was it called back Northern then? Also i see some nice comments on Youtube,where old guys come on,reminiscing about tunes we love, being played back in the day in the States.

[Mark S]

where was all this stuff played back in the 60's/70's in the states?.....seems totally natural music when played at this countries nighters ect ect.......just can,t imagine it played at clubs at all stateside

This is a great question and allways puzzled me as to who this music was aimed at and if it was played out alongside music of a similar style tempo etc and how people danced to it .

It may be a British peculiarity that we put such a high value culturaly on something the Americans can so easily dispose of .

[Spacehopper]

while i think we can all feel a little sense of pride in keeping soul music going and giving a new lease of life to records and artists which didnt get national exposure back in the day i think we also have to realise we were not the first people to play and dance to this music!...

...whatever it was called..black rnb and soul music was definately being played and danced to when it was being made all over the states...if not why are the so many records about dance crazes!...check out the condition of some of the records coming over from the states that have sat in boxes for 40 years...theyve been played and danced to alright!...its great having a mint record as a collector but theres also something about having a record with a little wear,a little history of other people way back enjoying it too...

...and as has already been said its great seeing feedback on you tube from both black and white memories of dances and tunes

its not so different today...there are clubs all over the uk and states playing hip hop and dancehall reggae which are on small independant labels and will never make it into the charts...but those artists are huge in those areas although unknown to the wider public...its nuffin new and like i said we were not the first...although they danced very different of course...they would have danced in couples!!

dean

[Spacehopper]

ofcourse a lot of the stuff we call and dance to as northern would have been played on the beach scene and at teen hi school dances back then....think i would have rather been at the black underground and probably illegal rnb and soul clubs though!....kinda like a lot of the dodgy reggae clubs ive been to and played at in the past!!

dean

[Guest gordon russell]

This is a great question and allways puzzled me as to who this music was aimed at and if it was played out alongside music of a similar style tempo etc and how people danced to it .

It may be a British peculiarity that we put such a high value culturaly on something the Americans can so easily dispose of .

it,s not so much who it was aimed at......motown/motown type stuff was aimed at young white kids......fair enough. but when l go to a nighter and hear 8 hours of upbeat dancing soul....l know it,s from all over the states.......but on a local level (stateside) where was this dance music played....was it just played in amongst the pop stuff.....at the local disco?......surely not in the home,car or radio.........tezza

[Geeselad]

If we take as a given that northern is traditionaly about motown copiests, then a lot of what we consider Northern wouldnt of been played by the urban black communities, it was music made by black people for a general pop audience and may well have been popular on the college circuit, rather than some seedy Harlem niterie where the real jive cats were at.

[Spacehopper]

played in clubs in the black areas of all major cities and radio stations...got a cd at home cant remember the jock but its from philly about 69...loads of stuff on their i recognise including jingles by carl holmes with snippets of soul dance number 3!! alongside the bigger tunes by james brown etc...

....remember they also had the bands playing live at their clubs as most were locals in places like detroit chicago and philly....in the 70s my parents used to go to the U.S bases in norfolk ,my auntie was married to a black american and most of the crowd were black dancing to smaller soul bands over from the states,not the big motown acts..sadly shes forgot the names now...will try dig out some pics when i go up at xmas

dean

dean

[Spacehopper]

If we take as a given that northern is traditionaly about motown copiests, then a lot of what we consider Northern wouldnt of been played by the urban black communities, it was music made by black people for a general pop audience and may well have been popular on the college circuit, rather than some seedy Harlem niterie where the real jive cats were at.

not sure if i agree with that to be honest....put next to motown most of what we call northern is TOO BLACK which is precisely why it never made it back then and only got plays on the black stations and clubs and not the whit IMHO...colleges would have played some but a lot of more gargage/soul or as ive heard it called 'phrat' rock

[boba]

His mind was completely wrecked. This guy's in his 40's, maybe 50's and he's a serious man ....and he's never heard Ray Charles!

dude sounds like an idiot. my mom has heard of ray charles and she is an immigrant who pretty much never owned any music. charles was the coca cola spokesman for a while, did the guy also not hear of coca cola?

[Guest in town Mikey]

With America being such a vast place, a lot of the stuff will have been local. We know of many records that were local hits, that we consider 'our' music today.

So while many of the reords didnt go national a lot would have been played at the clubs, speakeasys, concerts, that the youth of America frequented.

America also has/had an incredible number of local radio stations, where some of the tunes could be played to death. But move out of that area, and you may have never heard it at all.

It is interesting to think, who were the Salvadores, for example, aiming Stick By Me Baby at. It is so different to most of the Motown soundalikes. its not RnB in the traditional RnB way. But it sits perfectly in the dance scene that became Northern Soul in the UK.

I think this is the perfect question to ask Lorraine Chandler. Who was the target audience for her songs? Where did the records get played? How localised was the distribution in the early days. etc etc.

You could probably write a book on her answer.

I remember thinking a few years back, when Geoff was listing some of the songs played at the mod clubs in London in the mid 60s. One of the tracks...possibly a Fascinations track, sat in alongside stuff on Stax, Sue, Motown, and some British stuff like Georgie Fame, Spencer Davis etc. And thought then, that a record like that, is almost out of place. Yet is perfectly compatable with the rest of the stuff he listed. And it must have been mind blowing to hear.

I'm lucky. My introduction to Northern Soul was when the scene was very well extablished. But the fledgeling uk scene, and with that, the artists making the records (and why) is a fascinating discussion.

Great thread.

[manus]

I worked in the kitchen of a summer camp in upstate New York in the mid 80s with two Black Chefs one from Chicago and the other from Virginia. We had a cassette player in the kitchen and one day I put on a tape with a lot of what we would class as Northern sounds - the chefs knew some of the sounds and not just the obvious ones like Gene Chandler NCSM. They were really surprised that I knew these records - and one of them sang along to the lyrics on a couple of the records. They were both late 40s - I was about 28 at the time.

Also I put the same tape on at the gym on the camp and Jack Montgomery Dearly Beloved came on and one of the older white guys who was maybe late 30s who worked there popped his head around the door and said that he hadn't heard the song for years and had danced to it as a teenager.

Cheers

Manus

Edited November 18, 2011 by manus

[boba]

I worked in the kitchen of a summer camp in upstate New York in the mid 80s with two Black Chefs one from Chicago and the other from Virginia. We had a cassette player in the kitchen and one day I put on a tape with a lot of what we would class as Northern sounds - the chefs knew some of the sounds and not just the obvious ones like Gene Chandler NCSM. They were really surprised that I knew these records - and one of them sang along to the lyrics on a couple of the records. They were both late 40s - I was about 28 at the time.

Also I put the same tape on at the gym on the camp and Jack Montgomery Dearly Beloved came on and one of the older white guys who was maybe late 30s who worked there popped his head around the door and said that he hadn't heard the song for years and had danced to it as a teenager.

Cheers

Manus

dearly beloved got some radio play in chicago

[Spacehopper]

_{good post...the cd i have of the philly station was definately aimed at the black side of town!....the jingles are mental...FAST jive talkin...with the fashions of the day.....cant imagine many white americans catching most of what they were saying!!...reminds me a lot of the pirate stations in the big cities of today talking patios and aiming for the jamaican parts of bristol,london etc}

[George G]

I think this discussion is about dance clubs in the US...so I will talk about that.

From the late 1950s until the late 1960s, there were 1000s of clubs and venues in the US. Most of these clubs featured live music, R&B bands, rock bands, soul groups. The whole scene was about dancing, and doing the latest dances. The Twist is probably the biggest dance of the whole soul/rock dance scene. That's why you have so many records with dances as the lyric theme up to the late 1960s. Some places had DJs, usually from the local radio station, play records, but these were usually events held at local schools. The US had teen clubs, for people 18 (or 17) and under, and nightclubs, for 18 and older. The difference being that 18 was legal drinking age (now it's 21).

A pretty good overview of the dance scene is found in the "Chicago Soul" book from years ago.

There were some places where people would sit and 'watch' a show....but this didn't really start happening until the late 1960s. Places like the Apollo Theatre were the exception - the action was really in the local clubs in the towns where the groups were from.

The live shows these groups played were 99% - or even 100% songs that were well known and already established - 'hits of day and some oldies' we used to say. Occasionally groups did their own songs - whether they were on a record or not. Whatever they did, they had to get the audience dancing or at least engaged. Look at any picture from live club show from the time, you'll see people dancing and a few up at the front of the stage (usually girls ogling male performers).

A lot of the records were recorded simply as a promotional item. You could ask for more money if you could say you were a recording act. That's not to say artists didn't want to have a hit record.....but it was a lot easier to make money performing live than waiting for a royalty check. Groups could get $300, $500, or more for a single night. That was a lot of money back then.

There was a "Chitlin Circuit" that groups would travel if they were able to get a record or two out or they had someone backing them. The circuit was primarily in the US South , established when segretation was still legal, and kept going even after. Clubs, hotels, restaurants that were available to black acts.

[Irish Spinner]

where was all this stuff played back in the 60's/70's in the states?.....seems totally natural music when played at this countries nighters ect ect.......just can,t imagine it played at clubs at all stateside

Do you remember that Simon susun or something like that who used to put out record list in the early seventies. Well he stated on his listings that kids in the states where dancing to stuff similar to wot we where listing to i cant remember if a location was given . or was that just a load of tosh put out by some boot legger . Edited November 19, 2011 by Irish Spinner

[Guest ritchie]

Do you remember that Simon susun or something like that who used to put out record list in the early seventies. Well he stated on his listings that kids in the states where dancing to stuff similar to wot we where listing to i cant remember if a location was given . or was that just a load of tosh put out by some boot legger .

Simon Soussan would have stated (and probably have produced written and photographic evidence ) that the "kids" were dancing to records with which he had an agenda..

SS was operating73 onwards and it is very doubtful American kids would have been dancing to old 60's obscurities in any numbers or if at all..even the "new" instrumental / synthesized versions

he had the habit of putting out.

SS would have tried to convince you The Pope , Mother Theresa, The Dali Lhama & Jesus where dancing to his latest discovery if it meant more sales... and some would have believed him

There was a SS list on here a few weeks back I'm trying to find the thread ... hindsight is a wonderful thing...

SS was a bootlegger , but he was much much more than that

[Sjclement]

where was all this stuff played back in the 60's/70's in the states?.....seems totally natural music when played at this countries nighters ect ect.......just can,t imagine it played at clubs at all stateside

Its hard to think of a venue stateside playing Ritchie Adams then Paul Anka then the Tomangoes and throwing Hank Jacobs into the mix.

I like to think of that record shop in Hairspray were the kids got together and danced to the new releases in the shop!

Also I remember an episode of Police Story,(a cops and robbers tv series set in Chicago in the sixties, theme tune was Runaway Del Shannon), where the 'house party' was featured with all the main characters dancing the Madison to The Impressions Its Alright

[NEILO]

A perfect example for me that begs the question ' who was it aimed at' is Lou Pride - I'm Comin' Home In The Mornin'.

Sounds brilliant at an allnighter but can't see where the audience would have been in the States!

ATB

[KevH]

Lots of stuff came out around the Vietnam period.Being away from,or coming home tunes.Would have been popular locally?

[Guest gordon russell]

Its hard to think of a venue stateside playing Ritchie Adams then Paul Anka then the Tomangoes and throwing Hank Jacobs into the mix.

I like to think of that record shop in Hairspray were the kids got together and danced to the new releases in the shop!

Also I remember an episode of Police Story,(a cops and robbers tv series set in Chicago in the sixties, theme tune was Runaway Del Shannon), where the 'house party' was featured with all the main characters dancing the Madison to The Impressions Its Alright

it,s hard to think of anywhere playing paul anka

[Chalky]

I presume there was a black music scene in almost every town/city in the States. But I guess kids then were just trying to be the next big thing just as it is today many more fail than succeed. Everyone wanted to be a popstar/recording artist.

[Guest Matt Male]

I wonder if there was anything like it in this country, with all the skiffle, garage bands around the late 50s and early 60s? Did any of them get a single recording and then disappear forever? Seems like cutting a record was essential in the U.S. for every group together for five minutes, whereas here they just toured the pubs and clubs until they split up.

Nowadays they all stick it on YouTube.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Matt Male

[sepia]

must of been some kind of following or market for the music style we love.

90% of what we listen to was artists trying to break into that market.

i do think most never got past local intrest.

the likes of say SUNDAY / AINT GOT NO PROBLEM / ALTEEN im amazed that the amount of copies you see & yet all are vg or less condition.they must of got some plays in that area then.

yet when chess took it hoping to go national,it ended up harder to get & most copies are good nick,new old stock as they say.

also wasnt it easy to make your own record then,so nothing to lose.

imagine being a judge in the talent shows back then.id let them all into the final.the worst artist would prob win todays x-factor,lol.

most artists seem to say they dont even remember making the records.

i still find it amazing that the harder the 45 is to find the better it seems to be & unissued stuff even better.thats just my opinion tho.

even your big uk artists like beatles,tom jones etc wanted the sound of young america,we must just have a better ear for great music.

its just great music to us & now only $$$$ signs to the americans.

[Tomangoes]

In another thread, I asked Lorraine Chandler if she performed I cant change, I cant hold on etc live in the USA when they were released. Lorraine said yes! so obviously some folks had exposure to some 'northern' tracks.

Its been reported that Pittsburgh had plenty of R & B clubs that played uptempo black dance tracks, so as previously commented on, there was a certain demand locally.

If you have ever been to the USA you will know that the distances between major cities is hundreds of miles, so unlike the UK, it would have been impossible for a scene to develop as we had. Radio was not national, so small labels would have struggled to get national exposure.

Ed

[Geeselad]

not sure if i agree with that to be honest....put next to motown most of what we call northern is TOO BLACK which is precisely why it never made it back then and only got plays on the black stations and clubs and not the whit IMHO...colleges would have played some but a lot of more gargage/soul or as ive heard it called 'phrat' rock

on reflection yep that a pretty shite generalisation by me, I think I probably had classic ' wigan big productions' in my head when I said that, and too be honest I cant see records of that type doing it with a black audience or featuring to highly in the r and b charts either. However much of what was played at say the wheel, cats or torch I could see cutting it with young black urbanites, out to dance, in mid sixties USA.