What Constitutes Original Vinyl?

[Guest brummiemick]

I have been searching through the sales forum here, looking at dealers sites and the likes of ebay and have realised that many records were released via different labels and often with different artistes on the A/B side

To learn more I have also acquired The Essential Northern Soul Guide but am still confused as to what consitutes original vinyl. For example is a "repress" an original? Are UK recordings that followed USA recordings classed as originals, is the "You don't love me by Epitome of Sound" single released by Richard Searling in 2010 recognised as an original and so on?

Apart from using reputable dealers and reading the various guides are there any rules of thumb that can be used to quickly identify original and avoid using bootlegs?

[Chalky]

Basically original vinyl is a 45 (or LP) in it's original format, it's first release, more often than not a local release. This then moves on to national release if picked up by a major. Then follows a re-issue if demand follows or becomes a hit a few years down the line and a re-press is needed.

The release of Richard Searling's isn't considered an original by the majority of collectors or DJ's although it will be legit. The original release is on Sandbag. There are other boots and releases of this too.

Bootlegs and re-issue make buying a nightmare for those who don't know the difference. The best thing top do if unsure is ask on here, you will get an answer pretty quickly.

[Cover-up]

Is a repress an original? Eh?

[Guest MrC]

It's a minefield Mick, & there's been thread after thread after thread over the years arguing about whats what! Chalky's got it covered quite well, and like he says,

IF IN DOUBT, ASK!

I'm sure this is just a continuation of your "8 weeks later" thread

[Chalky]

Is a repress an original? Eh?

He doesn't know so he is asking, not everyone is clued up.

[Guest sharmo 1]

I have been searching through the sales forum here, looking at dealers sites and the likes of ebay and have realised that many records were released via different labels and often with different artistes on the A/B side

To learn more I have also acquired The Essential Northern Soul Guide but am still confused as to what consitutes original vinyl. For example is a "repress" an original? Are UK recordings that followed USA recordings classed as originals, is the "You don't love me by Epitome of Sound" single released by Richard Searling in 2010 recognised as an original and so on?

Apart from using reputable dealers and reading the various guides are there any rules of thumb that can be used to quickly identify original and avoid using bootlegs?

Hi mate the rule of thumb is either exsperiance or find a good local collector who'll show you the idea.An original is universely agreed as the first pressing .Happy hunting Simon.

Edited November 9, 2011 by sharmo 1

[KevH]

There's no rule of thumb Brummymick.(apart fron Simon's post above..)

Edited November 9, 2011 by KevH

[Theothertosspot]

Hi mate the rule of thumb is either exsperiance or find a good local collector who'll show you the idea.An original is univeraly agreed as the first pressing .Happy hunting Simon.

By "rule of thumb" do you mean where the pressing operator presses his/her thumb into the prefab, and if a good impression of their print is made it will produce a good pressing, and if not it needs more heat?

[John Elias]

John Manship's 5th price guide covers 95% of what you'll need,the original label release and sometimes 2nd or even third are legit amd where he indicates aboot exists and cross reference to a scan,and deadwax stamps etc,then you've also got legit releases on u.k. labels which to me are fine.

[Theothertosspot]

Some of the MCA releases of records released "originally" on Decca have the same matrix numbers on both the label and in the deadwax which would indicate that the same pressing plates have been used (look at Joey Heatherton on both labels). Does this make the MCA press an original although pressed at a later date. If this is the case then is the original going to be the - first one, first batch, etc?

[Guest MrC]

Deja Vu.......

[Chalky]

Some of the MCA releases of records released "originally" on Decca have the same matrix numbers on both the label and in the deadwax which would indicate that the same pressing plates have been used (look at Joey Heatherton on both labels). Does this make the MCA press an original although pressed at a later date. If this is the case then is the original going to be the - first one, first batch, etc?

The original is the first press. Later presses are re-issues. MCA purchased Decca in the 60's.

[Kris Holmes]

Some of the MCA releases of records released "originally" on Decca have the same matrix numbers on both the label and in the deadwax which would indicate that the same pressing plates have been used (look at Joey Heatherton on both labels). Does this make the MCA press an original although pressed at a later date. If this is the case then is the original going to be the - first one, first batch, etc?

these are legit reissues but should not be considered under the original vinyl classification.

[Kris Holmes]

On 11/9/2011 at 19:22, brummymick said:

I have been searching through the sales forum here, looking at dealers sites and the likes of ebay and have realised that many records were released via different labels and often with different artistes on the A/B side

To learn more I have also acquired The Essential Northern Soul Guide but am still confused as to what consitutes original vinyl. For example is a "repress" an original? Are UK recordings that followed USA recordings classed as originals, is the "You don't love me by Epitome of Sound" single released by Richard Searling in 2010 recognised as an original and so on?

Apart from using reputable dealers and reading the various guides are there any rules of thumb that can be used to quickly identify original and avoid using bootlegs?

OK, to give you a leg up.

if you're a newbie to this & plan on starting collecting then you should buy these.

 

get familiar with the info here

 

cross reference prices people are asking with actual completed ebay auction results on these sites

https://www.collectorsfrenzy.com/ (updated daily, covers records $15 & up & is free to use)

https://www.popsike.com/ (has been running longer but is updated infrequently, covers records $25 & up & costs to use after a certain amount of searches)

Condition is important. If you don't want to be disappointed with what you receive do not buy records from UK or Euro dealers which are graded Ex or lower & do not buy records from US dealers graded VG+ or lower. Sure you can be pleasantly surprised every now & then blind buying VG+ or Ex records but for the most part it's becoming rare.

A lot of us know our stuff because we have looked at millions of 45s over decades of digging. There really is no substitute for gaining knowledge about this stuff by being out actively being in contact with records in quantity.

Watch out for people on here selling stuff as originals, my girlfriend got taken by a very convincing, "experienced" dealer who went out of his way with long stories etc & convinced her the records she was getting were originals at original prices only to receive a number of bootlegs from the 70s/80s/90s/00s.

As a beginner use the above tools at your disposal & get into it.

[Geeselad]

here we go again, minefield alert!!!!!! No disrespect, but its one of those q's that we love to debunk any definative answer on.

[boba]

On 11/9/2011 at 21:36, Kris Holmes said:

OK, to give you a leg up.

if you're a newbie to this & plan on starting collecting then you should buy these.

 

 

cross reference prices people are asking with actual completed ebay auction results on these sites

https://www.collectorsfrenzy.com/ (updated daily, covers records $15 & up & is free to use)

https://www.popsike.com/ (has been running longer but is updated infrequently, covers records $25 & up & costs to use after a certain amount of searches)

Condition is important. If you don't want to be disappointed with what you receive do not buy records from UK or Euro dealers which are graded Ex or lower & do not buy records from US dealers graded VG+ or lower. Sure you can be pleasantly surprised every now & then blind buying VG+ or Ex records but for the most part it's becoming rare.

A lot of us know our stuff because we have looked at millions of 45s over decades of digging. There really is no substitute for gaining knowledge about this stuff by being out actively being in contact with records in quantity.

Watch out for people on here selling stuff as originals, my girlfriend got taken by a very convincing, "experienced" dealer who went out of his way with long stories etc & convinced her the records she was getting were originals at original prices only to receive a number of bootlegs from the 70s/80s/90s/00s.

As a beginner use the above tools at your disposal & get into it.

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told that all the info (and more) from the manship bootleg guide has been rolled into the price guide. So buying the bootleg guide separately isn't that good of an idea.

[Kris Holmes]

I don't own either so can't comment on the double up but this way he's doubly sure & the bootleg guide is bound to be more portable than the full price guide

[Chalky]

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told that all the info (and more) from the manship bootleg guide has been rolled into the price guide. So buying the bootleg guide separately isn't that good of an idea.

all depends if you want to carry one or t'other about with you, if you do the boot guide would be better.

Maybe about time a separate updated boot guide was issued with the scans in with the details and not having to go looking for the scan to compare with the data.

[Spacehopper]

theres also the arguement about original uk as opposed to original fullstop!....let me explain..marvin gayes love starved heart was not released in the uk until chris kings legit release but WAS released in the us so although it may be original uk issue,when djing at least its not an original...

it gets easier

dean

[boba]

all depends if you want to carry one or t'other about with you, if you do the boot guide would be better.

Maybe about time a separate updated boot guide was issued with the scans in with the details and not having to go looking for the scan to compare with the data.

in a thread a long time ago where i was asking about a boot i had bought that was not listed in the boot guide, manship responded saying that there was a lot more and a lot more accurate bootleg information (including the record I got) in his 5th price guide. So it's not just a question of having a lighter book.

[Sebastian]

in a thread a long time ago where i was asking about a boot i had bought that was not listed in the boot guide, manship responded saying that there was a lot more and a lot more accurate bootleg information (including the record I got) in his 5th price guide. So it's not just a question of having a lighter book.

Indeed, the boot guide is outdated. The only way to go at this point is the 5th edition of the price guide.

[Guest MrC]

it gets easier

dean

Does it? 35 years on and I'm still learning!!

[Chalky]

in a thread a long time ago where i was asking about a boot i had bought that was not listed in the boot guide, manship responded saying that there was a lot more and a lot more accurate bootleg information (including the record I got) in his 5th price guide. So it's not just a question of having a lighter book.

Thats why I suggested an updated stand alone price guide for those that do carry stuff like this, JM PG 5th addition can be a bit big to carry about. If an updated boot guide was to be done maybe it could be pocket sized?

[Harry Crosby]

Have read all the threads in the past. Can i throw this one at you. Are labels such as Disco demand, grapevine, Destiny, Inferno, Kent, etc classed as British releases as with Stateside etc

[Chalky]

Many of the modern day UK issues are considered nothing but legal boots by some and those that play them out are frowned upon.

Unissued material different again and playing of these accepted.

[Harry Crosby]

Many of the modern day UK issues are considered nothing but legal boots by some and those that play them out are frowned upon.

Unissued material different again and playing of these accepted.

Wasn`t on about playing them out Chalky, was just asking if they are considered as British originals in there own right, surely a bootlegg is an illegal item,where no royalties have been paid or license applied for? The original grapevine series is now thirty odd years old, and so is Casino classics, disco demand etc.

[Guest MrC]

Have read all the threads in the past. Can i throw this one at you. Are labels such as Disco demand, grapevine, Destiny, Inferno, Kent, etc classed as British releases as with Stateside etc

Seems that anything that gets pressed specifically for the latterday soul market doesn't count at all Harry, could be something to do with the fact that most of them were pressed many many years after the original US releases and were just a cash in on a current trend.

Not all of the seemingly legit UK releases actually were though, ask Pete Smith about his letter from Lorraine Silver about the Casino Classics release of "Lost Summer Love"

[Chalky]

Wasn`t on about playing them out Chalky, was just asking if they are considered as British originals in there own right, surely a bootlegg is an illegal item,where no royalties have been paid or license applied for? The original grapevine series is now thirty odd years old, and so is Casino classics, disco demand etc.

My reply wasn't a direct reply to you, think we posted at same time.

I once collected all the original Grapevine series, good set to have but I wouldn't collect Destiny, Disco Demand or Casino Classics. Guess it is up to the individual what they collect. I didn't collect UK, still don't, Grapevine was the only UK label I collected (except Kent).

[Chalky]

Seems that anything that gets pressed specifically for the latterday soul market doesn't count at all Harry, could be something to do with the fact that most of them were pressed many many years after the original US releases and were just a cash in on a current trend.

Not all of the seemingly legit UK releases actually were though, ask Pete Smith about his letter from Lorraine Silver about the Casino Classics release of "Lost Summer Love"

Exactly many were done to make money on a trend rather than for the love of the music, not saying they didn't love the music who did them but my guess is the motives were money for many of them.

[Harry Crosby]

Seems that anything that gets pressed specifically for the latterday soul market doesn't count at all Harry, could be something to do with the fact that most of them were pressed many many years after the original US releases and were just a cash in on a current trend.

Not all of the seemingly legit UK releases actually were though, ask Pete Smith about his letter from Lorraine Silver about the Casino Classics release of "Lost Summer Love"

Intresting Paul, as some of those early ones nearly charted if i remember rightly, not questioning the ethics. Just if you were a true brithish collector wouldn`t these become a part of your collection?

[Guest MrC]

Intresting Paul, as some of those early ones nearly charted if i remember rightly, not questioning the ethics. Just if you were a true brithish collector wouldn`t these become a part of your collection?

A lot of the early ones did enter the chart, especially the PYE Disco Demand series - Footsie on TOTP even! - But a lot of those releases also had original UK releases in the 60s, Lorraine Silver, Wayne Gibson, Chuck Woods, etc, so I'm sure any self respecting British Collector would have those instead

[Harry Crosby]

A lot of the early ones did enter the chart, especially the PYE Disco Demand series - Footsie on TOTP even! - But a lot of those releases also had original UK releases in the 60s, Lorraine Silver, Wayne Gibson, Chuck Woods, etc, so I'm sure any self respecting British Collector would have those instead

Good point paul,

[Spacehopper]

Does it? 35 years on and I'm still learning!!

i agree..i believe evryone is always learning no one knows it all BUT i can remember when i first started collecting ORIGINALS it was a nightmare didnt have a clue but now i know certain things to look out for like the monarch pressing number for instance,even the best counterfeit wont have the right number...and once you know that hundreds of boots are instantly obvious...although there were a couple of mirwood with right number but wrong stamp i believe bobby garrett and jimmy thomas ...but even with these after years collecting the 'shine' on their labels just look wrong...or it could be the thickness of a run out groove or the record itself...or the bevelled edged which later pressings had...all these things come easy with experience

for those who dont have manships guide ...a lot of the 70s look a like boots were pressed at the same plant as a lot of originals years ealier BUT along with the mr stamp there was a number scratched..and a rule of thumb is if it starts with a 5/6 its 60s eg 65407 by the time they'd got to the early seventies the numbers may be 9/10 5406 so if its a 60s tunes with that number it must be a boot or re issue at least!.....at work so numbers are just for example cant remember exactly what they were upto at the end of the 60s!

talkin of boots (for a change!)...has anyone noticed how many 'new' boots are on ebay.com nowadays!...stopped going on .co.uk as i was fed up with trawling through shit loads of repros now the yankie site seems nearly as bad !!

dean

[Guest]

The Original record was released around the time the artist recorded it, and the artist is probably still contracted to the label.

This could include a small label, picked up by a large label ,for national distribution. Time scale I would put on this would be up to a year.

Reissue is probably some years later to satisfy a specialist market/interest. Artist has moved on in style/label since the record was first released.

Bootleg is probably some years later to satisfy a specialist market/interest. Artist has moved on in style/label since the record was first released.

This is not a hard and fast rule, but i think gives an idea of the situation.

[MrsWoodsrules]

John Manship's 5th price guide covers 95% of what you'll need,the original label release and sometimes 2nd or even third are legit amd where he indicates aboot exists and cross reference to a scan,and deadwax stamps etc,then you've also got legit releases on u.k. labels which to me are fine.

5th price guide.....don't you use original guides only?

[Guest]

There is a need for a BOOTLEG GUIDE complete with all scans and matrix cross referencing. and we have stored all the relevant info to pull from.

With me it is just a matter of find enough spare time to start to compile the book. I'm 58 years old and have 250,000 45s unprocessed. So my main job each day is to add records to the site...before my bucket list.

I will, I promise have a serious look on how to tackle my lack of time problem. We are launching a New Price guide in the spring ...it is already over 700 pages thick and that is without scans or bootleg info. So I feel a separate book is essential, as adding the bootleg info to this book would make it 800 page + which quite frankly, would cost a fortune to mail and would be too large for easy carrying.

So yes we are aware of the "PRESSING" need for a completely new authenticating guide - with me it's just find the time to do it. But it will happen...

[Pete S]

There is a need for a BOOTLEG GUIDE complete with all scans and matrix cross referencing. and we have stored all the relevant info to pull from.

With me it is just a matter of find enough spare time to start to compile the book. I'm 58 years old and have 250,000 45s unprocessed. So my main job each day is to add records to the site...before my bucket list.

I will, I promise have a serious look on how to tackle my lack of time problem. We are launching a New Price guide in the spring ...it is already over 700 pages thick and that is without scans or bootleg info. So I feel a separate book is essential, as adding the bootleg info to this book would make it 800 page + which quite frankly, would cost a fortune to mail and would be too large for easy carrying.

So yes we are aware of the "PRESSING" need for a completely new authenticating guide - with me it's just find the time to do it. But it will happen...

John there's a very easy way round this problem with the book size: release it as a cd rom. Charge the same price, it weighs nothing, and it can be constantly added to. Yes it can be copied but people would pay for subscription updates. I have a cd database of ska, reggae, called Roots Knotty Roots, it's got like 40,000 entries with matrixes etc.

[Guest MrC]

John there's a very easy way round this problem with the book size: release it as a cd rom. Charge the same price, it weighs nothing, and it can be constantly added to. Yes it can be copied but people would pay for subscription updates. I have a cd database of ska, reggae, called Roots Knotty Roots, it's got like 40,000 entries with matrixes etc.

Great idea!

[Spacehopper]

maybe alongside a book...i get enuff earache already trough being on the pc to long looking at vinyl!!!

dean

[Guest ZTSC]

OK, to give you a leg up.

if you're a newbie to this & plan on starting collecting then you should buy these.

https://www.raresoulm...IDE_TO_BOOTLEGS

https://www.raresoulm..._PRICE_GUIDE__5

get familiar with the info here

https://www.soul-sour...p-end-of-vinyl/

cross reference prices people are asking with actual completed ebay auction results on these sites

https://www.collectorsfrenzy.com/ (updated daily, covers records $15 & up & is free to use)

https://www.popsike.com/ (has been running longer but is updated infrequently, covers records $25 & up & costs to use after a certain amount of searches)

Condition is important. If you don't want to be disappointed with what you receive do not buy records from UK or Euro dealers which are graded Ex or lower & do not buy records from US dealers graded VG+ or lower. Sure you can be pleasantly surprised every now & then blind buying VG+ or Ex records but for the most part it's becoming rare.

A lot of us know our stuff because we have looked at millions of 45s over decades of digging. There really is no substitute for gaining knowledge about this stuff by being out actively being in contact with records in quantity.

Watch out for people on here selling stuff as originals, my girlfriend got taken by a very convincing, "experienced" dealer who went out of his way with long stories etc & convinced her the records she was getting were originals at original prices only to receive a number of bootlegs from the 70s/80s/90s/00s.

As a beginner use the above tools at your disposal & get into it.

What county was the the dealer from - give us a clue Kris go on ?

[Headsy]

I can hazard a guess lol

[Guest brummiemick]

Thanks everyone for the great advice. For now at least I am going to avoid ebay. I know that the majority of dealers are honest but I obviously need to learn "my onions" so am ordering the Guide as recommended by Kris Holmes and intend to seek recomendations for dealers via this site. What is clear is that there is a general consensus that the original release is "Original Vinyl", so that is what I intend to collect.

Incidentally does anyone specialise in Original Vinyl LP's and does anyone have any good recommendations?

[Chalky]

Thanks everyone for the great advice. For now at least I am going to avoid ebay. I know that the majority of dealers are honest but I obviously need to learn "my onions" so am ordering the Guide as recommended by Kris Holmes and intend to seek recomendations for dealers via this site. What is clear is that there is a general consensus that the original release is "Original Vinyl", so that is what I intend to collect.

Incidentally does anyone specialise in Original Vinyl LP's and does anyone have any good recommendations?

Guides are a very useful tool but don't forget you have some amazing knowledge on here, so if in doubt, no matter how trivial you might think the question is ASK!! Don't let anyone put you off either with some of the comments some who are still learning the game get.

[Ernie Andrews]

I wish that other site called the Northern soul forum was still on the go. I did a definitions(with supporting examples) list on there that some seemed to agree with. However the site owners changed the format and layout and the previous threads were lost - silly me didnt do it as a word file but typed it directly onto the post. Might have ago at it again sometime soon but being lazy would liked to have got my original one from that site. I even went into differences in acetates eg: original EMI acetates as opposed to the 70s EMI carvers that were done as the only way.

If I get my early retirement I will do it!

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Hi everybody, as if you have not had enough of me promoting my Detroit session, but maybe the odd one or two of you missed the fanfare! I released a couple of the recordings on American large hole vinyl celebrating the musicians and artists of Detroit a couple of yeas ago now. They are original pressings that I commissioned and there are some still available. They are for sale in only 4 places, and whilst promoting on here, I will mention Funky Feet Records, who took a massive risk stocking the product and have successfully become part of my story etc. The musicians on board include some of the Funk Brothers like Dennis Coffey,Bob Babbit, Uriel Jones and vocals by Spyder Turner, for example. Yes, I own the rights, yes, I pay royalties from sales to the featured artist and producer and yes, If I managed to break even would fly out and do it again with new songs. The links are below, and feel free to listen to the samples on there, and indeed some on YouTube. By purchasing the product whether digitally or the 45's, you are supporting the music business and the featured artists for example. See what you think. Some do not like the guitar solo in 'Tell me', but that was ad-libbed by Dennis, in a studio environment and even though foreign to me at the time, have learned to appreciate what he did and how it actually compliments the song. Yes, one day I may put a sax on it, or even a Hammond overdub, but that for another day.....

https://www.funkyfeet...products_id=760

https://www.funkyfeet...products_id=762

I did the vinyl as a celebration of the format and for those collectors who aspire to a 45 passionately rather than digital etc. I thought it was a good idea at the time, novel and according to some, stupid. I do not regret it, but wished more would sell. The pedigree of the artists, musicians, producer and story, I thought they would have been snapped up. To date, I would never press another 45, as this scenario should have seen a little more action. Maybe I am too impatient.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Carl Dixon

[Kris Holmes]

I like that Pree track.

[pikeys dog]

Hi everybody, as if you have not had enough of me promoting my Detroit session, but maybe the odd one or two of you missed the fanfare! I released a couple of the recordings on American large hole vinyl celebrating the musicians and artists of Detroit a couple of yeas ago now. They are original pressings that I commissioned and there are some still available. They are for sale in only 4 places, and whilst promoting on here, I will mention Funky Feet Records, who took a massive risk stocking the product and have successfully become part of my story etc. The musicians on board include some of the Funk Brothers like Dennis Coffey,Bob Babbit, Uriel Jones and vocals by Spyder Turner, for example. Yes, I own the rights, yes, I pay royalties from sales to the featured artist and producer and yes, If I managed to break even would fly out and do it again with new songs. The links are below, and feel free to listen to the samples on there, and indeed some on YouTube. By purchasing the product whether digitally or the 45's, you are supporting the music business and the featured artists for example. See what you think. Some do not like the guitar solo in 'Tell me', but that was ad-libbed by Dennis, in a studio environment and even though foreign to me at the time, have learned to appreciate what he did and how it actually compliments the song. Yes, one day I may put a sax on it, or even a Hammond overdub, but that for another day.....

https://www.funkyfeet...products_id=760

https://www.funkyfeet...products_id=762

I did the vinyl as a celebration of the format and for those collectors who aspire to a 45 passionately rather than digital etc. I thought it was a good idea at the time, novel and according to some, stupid. I do not regret it, but wished more would sell. The pedigree of the artists, musicians, producer and story, I thought they would have been snapped up. To date, I would never press another 45, as this scenario should have seen a little more action. Maybe I am too impatient.

I had a Spam sandwich for my breakfast, and now it seems I'm having one for my supper.

[Sunnysoul]

I had a Spam sandwich for my breakfast, and now it seems I'm having one for my supper.

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Pikeys dog - clarify please?

[pikeys dog]

Pikeys dog - clarify please?

Your posting reads as spam - it's a sales pitch with little or next to no relevance to the thread.

Sorry my attempt at wit Seven-four-sevened you.

Clear enough?