Patto Posted October 24, 2011 Posted October 24, 2011 I have had this copy for some time now and LOVE the instrumental version.Is this Legit and ok to play out or does the instrumental exist on any other slab of vinyl
Paul R Posted October 24, 2011 Posted October 24, 2011 I have had this copy for some time now and LOVE the instrumental version.Is this Legit and ok to play out or does the instrumental exist on any other slab of vinyl Don't know how legit it is, but came out with Jackie Day, "Before It's Too Late" inst, & Vernon Garrett "Turn Back The Hands Of Time" inst, both on the blue modern label. Believe them to be the only instrumental issues. Heard that Simon Soussan actually leased them legally. Don't know how true this is. Paul
Guest Posted October 24, 2011 Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) I have had this copy for some time now and LOVE the instrumental version.Is this Legit and ok to play out or does the instrumental exist on any other slab of vinyl its a bootleg but insto does not exist anywhere else so ok to play but cannot play the vocal this is the info i was given when i inquired about it on here so just passing on what i was told Edited October 24, 2011 by mikecook 1
Ady Croasdell Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 It's on the Kent CD Double Cookin' so could be played off that! (I know )
Ady Croasdell Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 I'm not sure Soussain would break the habits of a lifetime
Pete S Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 I have had this copy for some time now and LOVE the instrumental version.Is this Legit and ok to play out or does the instrumental exist on any other slab of vinyl Why are you asking for PERMISSION from a bunch of people you don't know, to play a record? Just f*cking play it. 1 1
Shinehead Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) Why are you asking for PERMISSION from a bunch of people you don't know, to play a record? Just f*cking play it. Too true play what you like it ain't no hanging offence. Edited October 25, 2011 by shinehead
Chalky Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 why play the instrumental (seems like some condone the actions of bootleggers) when you have one of the greatest Northern Soul records ever with the vocal version.
Shinehead Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 The first rule about bootlegs is not to buy them surely, once its bought the damage has been done.
Chalky Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 The first rule about bootlegs is not to buy them surely, once its bought the damage has been done. No wish to turn this into another boots topic but I agree with your first rule but it would appear some say it is ok to play a bootlegged record just because it hasn't had a release, there is no justification to play it and give acknowledgement to the bootlegger. The only person to benefit is Soussan. Like Ady said I doubt Soussan changed any habits and obtained this legally. As I said the vocal is one of the best records ever, fantastic dancer, superb vocal form Mary, what more do you want in a record. But hey at the end of the day like you and Pete said if they want to play it out just play it.
Shinehead Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) Looking at it from Chalkys point of view he's right playing a boot would only create a demand for it . Edited October 25, 2011 by shinehead
Goldsoul Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 What planet are some people on. I feel for regulars like Pete Smith with these kind of threads. Of course they were legal. How do you think Soussan got the tapes? He was dealing with Modern long before Ace/Kent came on the scene as licensees.
Patto Posted October 25, 2011 Author Posted October 25, 2011 The reason i asked was because i just don't know if its legit or not and i wanted to get a definitive answser.Personally i would not want to knowingly play a boot.I can assure you that i have the balls to play and do what i want but i wish to play U.S and UK originals only so i wanted advice thats all.Regarding Chalky's remarks yes the vocal is brill but heard out loads of times and i think the instrumental is fantastic, and lots of folk feel the same way so why not give people a different slant on a classic.So if its decided its Legit it should get spins the dancers will love it just as they loved the Jesse Davis and Rita & Tiaras instrumentals.When it all turns into Do this Do that remarks i wonder why i bothered to ask
Ady Croasdell Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 What planet are some people on. I feel for regulars like Pete Smith with these kind of threads. Of course they were legal. How do you think Soussan got the tapes? He was dealing with Modern long before Ace/Kent came on the scene as licensees. As I was told by Madelon Baker that he nicked some Audio Arts tapes from her in order to put out his instrumentals and later license on to Goldmine, it's not within the bounds of possibility that the same scenario could have happened there. I don't know either way. Pete's alright, I don't think he'll suffer too much mental anguish over the thread.
Pete S Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 As I was told by Madelon Baker that he nicked some Audio Arts tapes from her in order to put out his instrumentals and later license on to Goldmine, it's not within the bounds of possibility that the same scenario could have happened there. I don't know either way. Pete's alright, I don't think he'll suffer too much mental anguish over the thread. If only you knew how much anguish I suffered over this thread
Guest Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 What planet are some people on. I feel for regulars like Pete Smith with these kind of threads. Of course they were legal. How do you think Soussan got the tapes? He was dealing with Modern long before Ace/Kent came on the scene as licensees. i would very much hope it was a bootleg as i sold my copy on the strength of the 'knowledge' i recieved from here
Mike Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 i would very much hope it was a bootleg as i sold my copy on the strength of the 'knowledge' i recieved from here 5 sec search shows this
Chalky Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Well it ain't a boot. End of. I'm not convinced Kev, Soussan's reputation precedes him and I would want some compelling evidence he did everything with this above board. I guess the jury is out on this one.
Goldsoul Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Chalky-The jury is not out. I would hate you to be a judge! Firstly, you do not know him, secondly you were not around at that time. I was and furthermore was at Modern records over 30 years ago and found copies in their office! Soussan certainly had a personality that was way too flamboyant for us average Northern bods, but he booted records when he either A/ Couldn't find the owners or B/ Was short of cash flow. But the reality is, he did do some things right and the Modern reissues were one of them. Your statement is weak mate....saying well he's got a reputation so he must be guilty is way off beam. If you knew him like Ian Dewhirst, Neil Rushton and I you would take a very different view. As much as it hurts some, he was better for the scene than not. His creativity pushed the movement forward and the Modern instrumentals proved it,otherwise we would not be discussing them some 37 years later. I appreciate your input into Northern Soul, but this is not the thread for you. All the best, Kev
Chalky Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Kev, you are right I don't know him, heard many stories about him and the many tricks he did and was known to get up to. Like Is said I will take some persuading that this ain't a boot. Too many knowledgeable collectors have said this is a boot, far more than have said it it is legit so for me the jury is out on this one.
Goldsoul Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Chalky- I will leave you with this...... 1. How did he get the Instrumentals? 2. Why were the reissues pressed at the same plant Modern used at the time? 3. How come I saw them at Modern? Remember, they were an active reissue company long before Ace bought them. Now if you want to discuss Richard Temple on Stephanye or Frank Wilson on In.....I will agree with everything you say!! Have a nice night.
Guest Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Modern instrumental FACTS they are all Arthur Wright productions. The a-side vocal versions were all pressed from exactly the 1966 original masterplates. The instrumental sides obviously have a new masterplate. Decades ago Simon told me personally he got Arthur Wright to press them...and you must also take into account he was behind many exclusive previously unissued instrumental backing tracks notably from the catalogs - of Bobby Sanders @ Soul Town, Anthony C. Renfro @ Renfro, + The Mirwood & Audio Arts previously unissued instrumentals. Simon was/is legendary for various reasons - but it would be most difficult for him to "steal" all these backing tracks off these label owners without some level of co-operation... I'm not sticking up for his business methods but this argument does not stand up to scrutiny. the vocal sides used the original masterplates. 1
Goldsoul Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Modern instrumental FACTS they are all Arthur Wright productions. The a-side vocal versions were all pressed from exactly the 1966 original masterplates. The instrumental sides obviously have a new masterplate. Decades ago Simon told me personally he got Arthur Wright to press them...and you must also take into account he was behind many exclusive previously unissued instrumental backing tracks notably from the catalogs - of Bobby Sanders @ Soul Town, Anthony C. Renfro @ Renfro, + The Mirwood & Audio Arts previously unissued instrumentals. Simon was/is legendary for various reasons - but it would be most difficult for him to "steal" all these backing tracks off these label owners without some level of co-operation... I'm not sticking up for his business methods but this argument does not stand up to scrutiny. the vocal sides used the original masterplates. At last....a sensible and detailed reply! Kangaroo court over ? Patto- turn that mutha up LOUD!
Guest MrC Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 From what I can see it all seems to come down to this: did anyone at Modern (artists/writers/producers etc) recieve any money at all from the pressings of these titles? If they did - not a boot by definition of the fact that someone involved with the title got paid. If they did get paid, and you still insist it's a boot, next time you sell a £500+ record, are you going to send some of the proceeeds any of the people involved with the making of that record? I suspect not. It sems that some "boots" are actually more legitimate than the originals, in that at least SOME money gets through to the people involved!
Ady Croasdell Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Modern instrumental FACTS they are all Arthur Wright productions. The a-side vocal versions were all pressed from exactly the 1966 original masterplates. The instrumental sides obviously have a new masterplate. Decades ago Simon told me personally he got Arthur Wright to press them...and you must also take into account he was behind many exclusive previously unissued instrumental backing tracks notably from the catalogs - of Bobby Sanders @ Soul Town, Anthony C. Renfro @ Renfro, + The Mirwood & Audio Arts previously unissued instrumentals. Simon was/is legendary for various reasons - but it would be most difficult for him to "steal" all these backing tracks off these label owners without some level of co-operation... I'm not sticking up for his business methods but this argument does not stand up to scrutiny. the vocal sides used the original masterplates. I'd go along with the Modern sides given that evidence but I know for a fact from meeting her and discussing it that he conned Madelon Baker out of the Audio Arts masters that he took. The Mirwoods from Randy Wood are illegal too. The Belles is the Mirettes with the wrong title and claiming to be a Soul Fox production and similar duplicity with the Jackie Lee I'll Do Anything; legal reissues don't change artist and title names. As far as I know none of those or any of his Mirwood hybrids were pressed using original stampers or at a pressing plant used by the label. The Northern scene's always been in two minds over Soussain, hating him for directly ripping them off on countless occasions and then buying his counterfeit pressings in the late 70s even after I'd told a lot of people on the scene they were boots with the same markings on the run-out groove. They paid £15 plus for them because they wanted to believe they were getting £100 records despite evidence to the contrary.
Ian Dewhirst Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Soussan operated in a sort of blurry greyish area in terms of bootlegs. I have no doubt that many of his supposed 'boots' were legit - especially those Modern ones which were probably pressed at a Modern's regular plant. Certainly when I was there he would regularly be on the phone with artists and labels. I'm pretty sure he had ongoing relationships with many of them because I can vaguely remember him introducing me to both Bobby Sanders and Arthur Wright (who I think he later worked with on some of his Disco recordings) as well as numerous other known people. Also, on many releases he'd press through the original labels - remember the Frankie Crocker's on Turbo as another example alongside the Modern re-presses? Also, as Kev quite rightly says and John confirms, he certainly got access to the original 2" masters in order to get the instrumentals. So that "Satisfy Me Baby" voc + inst on Soultown is probably legit too. Ian D Edited October 26, 2011 by Ian Dewhirst
Guest Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Soussan operated in a sort of blurry greyish area in terms of bootlegs. I have no doubt that many of his supposed 'boots' were legit - especially those Modern ones which were probably pressed at a Modern's regular plant. Certainly when I was there he would regularly be on the phone with artists and labels. I'm pretty sure he had ongoing relationships with many of them because I can vaguely remember him introducing me to both Bobby Sanders and Arthur Wright (who I think he later worked with on some of his Disco recordings) as well as numerous other known people. Also, on many releases he'd press through the original labels - remember the Frankie Crocker's on Turbo as another example alongside the Modern re-presses? Also, as Kev quite rightly says and John confirms, he certainly got access to the original 2" masters in order to get the instrumentals. So that "Satisfy Me Baby" voc + inst on Soultown is probably legit too. Ian D Aidy & Ian We all know Simon was "a very naughty boy" at times and I have no doubt Aidy is correct on the Audio Arts & Mirwood situations, all I'm saying is the MODERN instrumentals are legit and used the original stampers for the vocal sides...I've just checked two vocal/instrumental 45 deadwax matrix's for the A-Side, against the original 1966 presses, they are identical. As for his other releases I think you'll find some others were done through the original company - some certainly were not. I'm just replying to the original question on this thread. That's why I did not put the Audio Arts or The Mirwood references - in BOLD type. Fascinating man Mr. Soussan.... Edited October 26, 2011 by john manship
Ian Dewhirst Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 I'd go along with the Modern sides given that evidence but I know for a fact from meeting her and discussing it that he conned Madelon Baker out of the Audio Arts masters that he took. The Mirwoods from Randy Wood are illegal too. The Belles is the Mirettes with the wrong title and claiming to be a Soul Fox production and similar duplicity with the Jackie Lee I'll Do Anything; legal reissues don't change artist and title names. As far as I know none of those or any of his Mirwood hybrids were pressed using original stampers or at a pressing plant used by the label. Mmm. He always maintained that he was good friends with Madelon and he could get whatever he wanted from Audio Arts. Funnily enough those Audio Arts ones he did, did look pretty legit to me. I'm pretty sure the original label artwork was used. I take your point on the Mirwood ones for sure. What year did Randy Woods die out of interest? Simon always maintained that he owned the masters and that's how he managed to crank out all those instrumentals..... Ian D
Ady Croasdell Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Mmm. He always maintained that he was good friends with Madelon and he could get whatever he wanted from Audio Arts. Funnily enough those Audio Arts ones he did, did look pretty legit to me. I'm pretty sure the original label artwork was used. I take your point on the Mirwood ones for sure. What year did Randy Woods die out of interest? Simon always maintained that he owned the masters and that's how he managed to crank out all those instrumentals..... Ian D But he was one of the biggest liars known on the scene. He swore blind those counterfeits were all originals even when I pointed out they were pressed at the same factory. He ripped countless people off. Madelon said the opposite about their relationship. Randy died relatively recently ago, 10 years or so? I'll look it up.
Goldsoul Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Ady.......no one is disputing your claims as to his business practice back in the day. All I, JM, ID are saying is, he had rights to certain things. He wasn't difficult to figure out either. If he had the dosh, he generally did things the right way, if he was short...well...... Boy what a discoverer of tuneage though with a flair to match. Just for today......like him a little......?
Chalky Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 At last....a sensible and detailed reply! Kangaroo court over ? Patto- turn that mutha up LOUD! No Kangaroo court, up until now many believed it was a bootleg (I dare says many still believe it is), masters obtained through dubious practices and no monies going the way of the owners/songwriters etc. Given what has been said it would appear otherwise and will take your word for it Kev. There have been however other instances of boots done using the original masters etc. I talk with Arthur Wright occasionally I will ask and see if he remembers anything about this.
Ian Dewhirst Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 But he was one of the biggest liars known on the scene. He swore blind those counterfeits were all originals even when I pointed out they were pressed at the same factory. He ripped countless people off. Madelon said the opposite about their relationship. Randy died relatively recently ago, 10 years or so? I'll look it up. For sure not to be trusted at all Ady. No dispute there. A chancer and an opportunist without a shadow of a doubt but that's why it's difficult to sort the truth from the lies most of the time. He always told me that he often got ripped off too. He always moaned about Morris Levy 'stealing' his car horns for the UK PYE release of "Footsee" after he'd licensed it (thus not giving him enough time to get a U.S. pressing out)! Ian D
Patto Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 At last....a sensible and detailed reply! Kangaroo court over ? Patto- turn that mutha up LOUD! Thats Good enough for me Kev you and John have nailed it for me thanks guys for your time and input.How about a main room airing of it at the next Kings Hall 1,2,3,4 and watch that floor bounce
Patto Posted October 26, 2011 Author Posted October 26, 2011 Modern instrumental FACTS they are all Arthur Wright productions. The a-side vocal versions were all pressed from exactly the 1966 original masterplates. The instrumental sides obviously have a new masterplate. Decades ago Simon told me personally he got Arthur Wright to press them...and you must also take into account he was behind many exclusive previously unissued instrumental backing tracks notably from the catalogs - of Bobby Sanders @ Soul Town, Anthony C. Renfro @ Renfro, + The Mirwood & Audio Arts previously unissued instrumentals. Simon was/is legendary for various reasons - but it would be most difficult for him to "steal" all these backing tracks off these label owners without some level of co-operation... I'm not sticking up for his business methods but this argument does not stand up to scrutiny. the vocal sides used the original masterplates. Thankyou John that satisfies me and would i be right in saying the record in question is a rarer item than the Original release.The instrumental is a stormer and should be a desirable record maybee now it will be
Goldsoul Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Thats Good enough for me Kev you and John have nailed it for me thanks guys for your time and input.How about a main room airing of it at the next Kings Hall 1,2,3,4 and watch that floor bounce YOU BETCHA'
Pete S Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Thankyou John that satisfies me and would i be right in saying the record in question is a rarer item than the Original release.The instrumental is a stormer and should be a desirable record maybee now it will be Original DJ is a tough record, £50 - £60.
Winsford Soul Posted April 6, 2020 Posted April 6, 2020 Just revisiting this thread. Many years ago I bought the blue modern vocal / instrumental record as a original and played both sides out as such. I have never knowingly played a bootleg as a DJ and I would never do so. Old school way or the proper way, it's the only way. 1
Patto Posted April 6, 2020 Author Posted April 6, 2020 Yep it was me that started that thread many moons ago.The record is legit and its therefore the only way to legit play out the instrumental. However the vocal already exists on the original Red Modern label issue and i own one and that how i play it out from an OVO position the vocal has to be the original Red Modern issue 1
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