Pop Masquerading As Soul

[Ady Croasdell]

A bit of a follow on from the Soul Snob section.

Moses Smith Girl Across The Street: corny, trite and forced. I don't believe a word he's singing.

[Pete S]

A bit of a follow on from the Soul Snob section.

Moses Smith Girl Across The Street: corny, trite and forced. I don't believe a word he's singing.

Definitely should be in the soul snob thread but absolutely stunned to see you nominate this record. Mick Smith will take you off his Xmas card list, it's his all time favourite

[Simsy]

Ah this was massive in the mid eighties, hanclappin' at the Fleet . That's what makes it Northern. But Troy Dodds he ain't

[Guest]

I'm not a fan of this tune... pop indeed Mr C - I wouldn't dance to it

[Guest Baz]

Paula Parfit

[Pete S]

Paula Parfit

But that isn't pop masquerading as soul, is it??? We know it's pop/northern soul.

[Guest Baz]

But that isn't pop masquerading as soul, is it??? We know it's pop/northern soul.

Touche Mr smith your quite right, was more of a sarky comment than any thing

[Pete S]

Touche Mr smith your quite right, was more of a sarky comment than any thing

Yeah I know it was, I saw the smiley, just testing

[Mike]

A bit of a follow on from the Soul Snob section.

Moses Smith Girl Across The Street: corny, trite and forced. I don't believe a word he's singing.

isn't there a 7 min version or something knocking around

havent heard it, but thought how did they stretch it out that long , loop intro 32 times?

[Pete S]

isn't there a 7 min version or something knocking around

havent heard it, but thought how did they stretch it out that long , loop intro 32 times?

Hold on I'll get it for you...back in a sec

[Pete S]

This version is just over 4 minutes but it's the longest version I know of

[Mike]

now have a vision of people on floor , looking at watches and then up at the decks, pulling out inhalers, being helped back to the chair

[Winnie :-)]

now have a vision of people on floor , looking at watches and then up at the decks, pulling out inhalers, being helped back to the chair

=========

You obviously remember what I'm like at NS do's then Mike

For the grammar buffs, and for my own future reference, should there be an apostrophe in the word Do's. Not even sure if it's technically a word.

Winnie:-)

[Chalky]

=========

You obviously remember what I'm like at NS do's then Mike

For the grammar buffs, and for my own future reference, should there be an apostrophe in the word Do's. Not even sure if it's technically a word.

Winnie:-)

I don't think it's a proper word Win but having said that I also use the word but I use two "o"s

[Mike]

=========

You obviously remember what I'm like at NS do's then Mike

For the grammar buffs, and for my own future reference, should there be an apostrophe in the word Do's. Not even sure if it's technically a word.

Winnie:-)

harlem rumble at 3 min 30 odd long is one always worth watching to see if anyone jacks

get the air ambulance on standby for that

[Ady Croasdell]

Yeah, me and Mick agree to disagree on this.

It should be dos you only use an apostrophe if the next word "belongs" to it. So you would say "that last 100 Club do's atmosphere was brilliant". Because it's the atmosphere of the do.

No other suggestions for pop as soul. I think some of the big beat ballad singers can drift that way, sometimes Roy Hamilton only just makes it. Of course they were often trying to sound like Vegas singers anyway, so they aren't really conning anyone.

[Pete S]

This is another 12" version of a classic...not literally...but it's too long

[Simsy]

sometimes Roy Hamilton only just makes it.

explain.

[Blake H]

Moses redeems himself brilliantly on "Keep on striving" imvhho.

BH

[Chalky]

Moses redeems himself brilliantly on "Keep on striving" imvhho.

BH

two good sides on the cotillion release

[Guest Andy BB]

Ahh but, what constitutes a record "masquerading as Soul"?

The label? The general consensus? The fact that it was widely played at a 'soul' venue in the past?

I want to play, but naturally I need the rules firmly and properly outlined before I dive in. (Especially given my general affection for white pop-soul records).

[Guest]

I don't think it's a proper word Win but having said that I also use the word but I use two "o"s

If you use 2 oo's and 2 d's dont that make it a doo doo?

[Epic]

IMHO Soul is in the ear of the beholder. Records by Paul Anka & Danny Wagner have been eagerly embraced by the Northern scene & rightly so. In a perfect world every record we like should be by a struggling black artist from the back streets of New York or Detroit - but that is Northern soul Utopia & not realistically how it is. I think if we are all honest there is a liking for the odd "pop ditty" or three in all of us.

[BrianB]

A bit of a follow on from the Soul Snob section.

Moses Smith Girl Across The Street: corny, trite and forced. I don't believe a word he's singing.

Ady,

Why do you need to believe the words he is singing? Why is it corny? Why is it trite and what do you mean forced? Why launch this attack on one of the biggest songs ever to hit the northern scene?

I was fortunate enough to get a copy of this for 25p in 1973 from a mate of mine who was working at the Reform Club in London and spent his free time in the record shops looking for gems like this. Was lucky then and feel lucky now to be able to listen to gems like this either out in a club or in my own home.

You have done some fantastic things for the scene and for the fans, but why knock this particular record?

We all know northern soul isn't exclusively black struggling artists as put so eloquently by Epic (great reply) but this is a great vocal performance that ranks along any of the Jamie, Dionn, Top and Bottom and Arctic sides of the 6ts.

I would like to hear your reply Ady, as i greatly respect your contribution, but this seems unfair to me.

Thanks and keep up the great work

Brian B

[Guest miff]

When I was 16 17 Mosses Smith sang like he new how I felt when i saw a pretty girl walking down the street I belevied him then and I still belive him now ime 45. Top top tune IMO

[Billy Freemantle]

I think a thread entitled Pop Masquerading as Soul could have picked any one of many, many records to start off rather than this one. Mention of the big ballad singers comes a lot closer - but there misfiled rather than masquerading is more accurate. To find the gooey poppy centre at the heart of some Northern Soul records we need to look again at all those white cover-ups that kids clapped away to at Wigan. Although these may now be acknowledged as pop records, they were not at the time. They were rather, by slight of hand, feed to the dancers in false packaging. A true masquerade took place. Unlike these - and let's name Paul Anka as a prime example - The Girl Across the Street is an uptempo poppy soul record.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Billy Freemantle

[Epic]

When Paul Anka was covered up as Johnny Caswell - we accepted it - though I suspect Mr. Caswell may be white also - apologies if anyone knows different. After the grand uncovering we all still danced to it & didn't desert the dancefloor when it was known who the singer actually was. It had the right "vibe" then & still does. That is what this crazy scene is all about & that's why we love it.

[Ady Croasdell]

explain.

Sometimes I find Roy's voice on the white side of big ballad singing and he sounds more like Matt Monro (who I like) than Lou Johnson (who I adore). In fact if you compare Roy and Lou's singing on The Panic Is On (someone tell Tim Brown it's acetate only and not on the Big Top LP) you'll see what I mean. Roy is a technically great singer but he doesn't always put his soul into it.

[Simsy]

Sometimes I find Roy's voice on the white side of big ballad singing and he sounds more like Matt Monro (who I like) than Lou Johnson (who I adore). In fact if you compare Roy and Lou's singing on The Panic Is On (someone tell Tim Brown it's acetate only and not on the Big Top LP) you'll see what I mean. Roy is a technically great singer but he doesn't always put his soul into it.

Wow. Have spent hundreds of pounds on Roy Hamilton records, never thought of him as white sounding though.

[Ady Croasdell]

Ady,

Why do you need to believe the words he is singing? Why is it corny? Why is it trite and what do you mean forced? Why launch this attack on one of the biggest songs ever to hit the northern scene?

I was fortunate enough to get a copy of this for 25p in 1973 from a mate of mine who was working at the Reform Club in London and spent his free time in the record shops looking for gems like this. Was lucky then and feel lucky now to be able to listen to gems like this either out in a club or in my own home.

You have done some fantastic things for the scene and for the fans, but why knock this particular record?

We all know northern soul isn't exclusively black struggling artists as put so eloquently by Epic (great reply) but this is a great vocal performance that ranks along any of the Jamie, Dionn, Top and Bottom and Arctic sides of the 6ts.

I would like to hear your reply Ady, as i greatly respect your contribution, but this seems unfair to me.

Thanks and keep up the great work

Brian B

It's not dissing the record as the record probably wasn't even trying to be a "soul" record in the way we interpret it now. It's just a way of reversing the debate on Blue Eyed Soul by asking which records that we often accept as soul classics or masterpieces may not have that much soul in them.

Moses himself would have treated the song like he saw fit and may have gone with a lighter vocal than say the one he used on 'Come On Let Me Love You'. I've spoken to soul singers who have taken the piss out of some of the songs that we revere, saying that it was just a throwaway session and they just churned out the lyrics from a song sheet. Sometimes I disagree and tell them they made a masterpiece without knowing it and other times you can see what they meant. Mary Love was never too keen on You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet though I love it.

I'm not putting songs down for sounding pop, I've probably got the biggest pop collection of any soul fan going. i just thought I'd look at it from another angle.

[Ady Croasdell]

I think a thread entitled Pop Masquerading as Soul could have picked any one of many, many records to start off rather than this one. Mention of the big ballad singers comes a lot closer - but there misfiled rather than masquerading is more accurate. To find the gooey poppy centre at the heart of some Northern Soul records we need to look again at all those white cover-ups that kids clapped away to at Wigan. Although these may now be acknowledged as pop records, they were not at the time. They were rather, by slight of hand, feed to the dancers in false packaging. A true masquerade took place. Unlike these - and let's name Paul Anka as a prime example - The Girl Across the Street is an uptempo poppy soul record.

Well I put Moses in as I know it's hugely popular and would get things going a bit. But as I've said I love pop and it's no disrespect to say a record is pop be it black or white. Let's face it all of these singers would have prefferred a pop #1 to an R&B #1. Some aimed at the R&B chart because they new that's what they did, but loads were aiming for the white teen market that tamla had won over.

Wigan didn't con anyone, it just put the beat before the soul content in a lot of cases. Whoever covered Paul Anka up as Johnny Caswell was being honest because it was well known by DJs that Caswell was white. When the Seeds and Helen Shapiro got played they weren't even covered (I think and hope), they were just hot new sounds. I gave Kiki Dee to Clarkie to play at Yate and it was no problem, people took it for what it was, a great pop record you could dance Northern to; and written by top NYC songsmiths.

[Ady Croasdell]

Wow. Have spent hundreds of pounds on Roy Hamilton records, never thought of him as white sounding though.

I don't think he sounds white I think he sings in a classic style that could be either. Like a top opera singer, I'd guess you can't tell their colour by hearing their voice as they aim for the same general standards.

Paul Robeson is one of my favourites (I've got a 78 of him singing "Niggers all work on the Mississippi" that got re-recoded), but he could pass as white on some songs and he was the least white appeasing singer of his generation.

[Ted Massey]

What about his "Try my love" just heard it on Soul Club what a record

[Ady Croasdell]

Great song, but I've never heard Paul Robeson's version.

[Guest Andy BB]

I think Moses is a good record but it should definitely be rejected due to its excessively violent message.

He doesn't even bother to hide his murderous fantasies about the object of his affection.

Midway through the song he distinctly sings "One day I'll get my nerve up... I'll axe her out on a date"

If I was her I'd find another street to live in, sharpish!

[Billy Freemantle]

Wigan didn't con anyone, it just put the beat before the soul content in a lot of cases.

On other non-specialist soul sites with music sections I have had on-line conversations with people who knowing no better, but receiving their musical education as tourists at Wigan, mention Muriel Day with reverence. Garbage like this became, in the minds of these people, soul records. How could it be perceived as otherwise coming from the self-proclaimed heart of soul? Is this wasn't leading people down the garden path and doing a huge disservice to soul music in the process I like to know what it was.

[Ady Croasdell]

On other non-specialist soul sites with music sections I have had on-line conversations with people who knowing no better, but receiving their musical education as tourists at Wigan, mention Muriel Day with reverence. Garbage like this became, in the minds of these people, soul records. How could it be perceived as otherwise coming from the self-proclaimed heart of soul? Is this wasn't leading people down the garden path and doing a huge disservice to soul music in the process I like to know what it was.

If people want to confer reverence on a venue, it's up to them. Wigan never set out to be the oracle of the soul movement, they were trying to run a good dance that people enjoyed and came back to. If they said it was the heart of soul later when they were established, that was a marketing ploy which most people in the know would be wise to. If others are more gullible and believe what they are told by businessmen who are after their buck, that's their naievity.

I wasn't particularly a Wigan fan but put it all in context and it was a place where the majority of the music was brilliant and it was up to the audience to reject the crappier ones.

[Billy Freemantle]

If people want to confer reverence on a venue, it's up to them. Wigan never set out to be the oracle of the soul movement, they were trying to run a good dance that people enjoyed and came back to. If they said it was the heart of soul later when they were established, that was a marketing ploy which most people in the know would be wise to. If others are more gullible and believe what they are told by businessmen who are after their buck, that's their naievity.

I wasn't particularly a Wigan fan but put it all in context and it was a place where the majority of the music was brilliant and it was up to the audience to reject the crappier ones.

I think I would probably agree with your second paragraph: the gems do outnumber the worthless tinsel.

But the sentiments of the first paragraph do seem to be an apology for practices and even policies which led people astray and did not serve the interests of the music in general as well as they could have done, and which they probably should have done. In this paragraph , too, you seem to be recognising as a fact the self-serving greed of businessmen which you earlier denied by saying that nobody was conned at Wigan. The deception, as I stated earlier, was indeed to package pop as Soul: in other words to be prime promoters of pop masquerading as soul.

Edited November 13, 2005 by Billy Freemantle

[Pete S]

and which they probably should have done. In this paragraph , too, you seem to be recognising as a fact the self-serving greed of businessmen which you earlier denied by saying that nobody was conned at Wigan.

Conned? For £1.50 you had a place where you could hear fantastic music ALL NIGHT, meet loads of new people, take loads of drugs and have the greatest time of your life. Well I did anyway. Priceless I reckon, if at the age of 45 I can look back 30 years and still remember it like it was yesterday. And all the time I was there, I can't remember ever complaining about the music, apart from dave Evisons oldies spot which was always terrible.

[Codfromderby]

Well I put Moses in as I know it's hugely popular and would get things going a bit. But as I've said I love pop and it's no disrespect to say a record is pop be it black or white. Let's face it all of these singers would have prefferred a pop #1 to an R&B #1. Some aimed at the R&B chart because they new that's what they did, but loads were aiming for the white teen market that tamla had won over.

Wigan didn't con anyone, it just put the beat before the soul content in a lot of cases. Whoever covered Paul Anka up as Johnny Caswell was being honest because it was well known by DJs that Caswell was white. When the Seeds and Helen Shapiro got played they weren't even covered (I think and hope), they were just hot new sounds. I gave Kiki Dee to Clarkie to play at Yate and it was no problem, people took it for what it was, a great pop record you could dance Northern to; and written by top NYC songsmiths.

on the "moses smith" thing i have got four questions

sorry for being a bit slow but are we saying moses is a white, is he the same bloke who recorded on cotillion, has anyone ever seen a picture of him, and finally where did that long version come from and is it available in any form.

[Ady Croasdell]

I'm pretty sure he's black or at least Jewish, I was just expostulating that Girl Across The Street was a bit of a pop record that has got accepted as a soul classic because the singer is black.

Same geezer on Cotillion, I can't help with the rest.

Nobody got any other examples or are all sixties black records that we play on the Northern scene soulful?

[Guest Gavin Page]

To be honest Ady when I first started going I did not mind the Blue Eyed stuff. It is as I have got older that I seem not to want to hear it? All be it not sure why?

J & the Americans "Got Hung Up Along The Way"

Buck Rogers " Take It From Me Girl"

2 records that I loved in the 80s not sure if I would want to hear the played out now ?

And dont get me on instrumentals

Edited November 14, 2005 by Gavin Page

[Steve G]

sorry for being a bit slow but are we saying moses is a white,

No we're not saying that Gavin.

Another one for the list Kelly Garrett "Love is the only answer" - surely good black "pop"?

[Guest]

This is another 12" version of a classic...not literally...but it's too long

I used to love that record but that version is terrible !

[Guest Dan]

=========

You obviously remember what I'm like at NS do's then Mike

For the grammar buffs, and for my own future reference, should there be an apostrophe in the word Do's. Not even sure if it's technically a word.

Winnie:-)

just logged on this am, missed this yesterday as pissed at a post-wedding do...very sharp winnie

G. Rammar-Buff, OBE

[Guest Gavin Page]

No we're not saying that Gavin.

Another one for the list Kelly Garrett "Love is the only answer" - surely good black "pop"?

Steve For some reason miss quoted the part from Adys that I wanted ? I am not sure why ?

[Winnie :-)]

Not able to reply directly to your post, not sure why perhaps Mike can sort it?

=========

For the grammar buffs, and for my own future reference, should there be an apostrophe in the word Do's. Not even sure if it's technically a word.

Winnie:-)

No there should not Win.... grammatical explanation follows:

NOUN-A "function"

NORTHERN SLANG VERSION OF AFORE-MENTIONED NOUN- A "do"

PLURAL OF AFORE-MENTIONED NOUN- "DOS" (1 or more funtions in Northernesque type slang)

"Do's" with an appostrophe would imply belonging to "Do" (for example Win's talcum powder,or Win's sense of humour )....Hope this is of assistance.....if any further lessons in English grammar are required may I suggest the (slightly amusing) book on the subject entitled "Eats shoots & leaves" (pic to follow)

French x

============

Will henceforth write dos with impunity, and quote your post as my point of reference if questioned

As a reward you can borrow my talc next time I see you, and if the floor is a little fast, I'll even let you dip your feet in my red-bull

Winnie:-)

[Geordiejohnson]

MMMMMMMMMMMMM....pop masquerading as soul..............surely all music at some stage is trying to be "popular" (pop) within its genres its then down to.... the luck of the draw, ,,,marketing forces, etc, etc, that make it a sure fire collectors item coz it flopped on in the popular stakes.

(Watch out for the incoming johnson red rag and bull & all that )

Geeoooooordie

[Ged Parker]

Not able to reply directly to your post, not sure why perhaps Mike can sort it?

=========

For the grammar buffs, and for my own future reference, should there be an apostrophe in the word Do's. Not even sure if it's technically a word.

Winnie:-)

No there should not Win.... grammatical explanation follows:

NOUN-A "function"

NORTHERN SLANG VERSION OF AFORE-MENTIONED NOUN- A "do"

PLURAL OF AFORE-MENTIONED NOUN- "DOS" (1 or more funtions in Northernesque type slang)

"Do's" with an appostrophe would imply belonging to "Do" (for example Win's talcum powder,or Win's sense of humour )....Hope this is of assistance.....if any further lessons in English grammar are required may I suggest the (slightly amusing) book on the subject entitled "Eats shoots & leaves" (pic to follow)

French x

============

Will henceforth write dos with impunity, and quote your post as my point of reference if questioned

As a reward you can borrow my talc next time I see you, and if the floor is a little fast, I'll even let you dip your feet in my red-bull

Winnie:-)

This all assumes that the correct spelling is "do" and not "doo". If the correct spelling is "doo" then the apostrophe in "do's" could be omissive (indicating the ommision of letter or letters) rather than possesive (indicating possesion).

Anyway Moses Smith is a classic, not particularly my cup of tea but has more of a place on the scene than some of the records from that era IMHO.

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure he's black or at least Jewish, I was just expostulating that Girl Across The Street was a bit of a pop record that has got accepted as a soul classic because the singer is black.

Same geezer on Cotillion, I can't help with the rest.

Nobody got any other examples or are all sixties black records that we play on the Northern scene soulful?

I used to love Dalton James and Sutton Run Baby, then again Ive always had awful taste