Is Playing A Boot At A Venue Ever Acceptable

[Chalky]

if i buy an original copy of a record off a seller/dealer, will they personally send royalties to the artist & songwriter? I very much doubt it... same as selling a second hand million seller to a mate or family member! not condoning the playing of boots (which most of us have), this is just a poor excuse to fan flames regarding the topic.. if its a legit format (vinyl,CD MP3 or whatever), then they will hopefully get royalties. but those formats arent allowed by the soul police either? it has to be OVO according to Royalty. all very confusing

when the original copies were sold, whether it was 20 or 20,000, the artist got royalties. so where does this fit into the thread argument?

who is royalty? has anyone labelled you anything...no, so no need for you to make things worse by inflaming matters is there just because someone has a different set of beliefs.

[Guest gordon russell]

if i buy an original copy of a record off a seller/dealer, will they personally send royalties to the artist & songwriter? I very much doubt it... same as selling a second hand million seller to a mate or family member! not condoning the playing of boots (which most of us have), this is just a poor excuse to fan flames regarding the topic.. if its a legit format (vinyl,CD MP3 or whatever), then they will hopefully get royalties. but those formats arent allowed by the soul police either? it has to be OVO according to Royalty. all very confusing

when the original copies were sold, whether it was 20 or 20,000, the artist got royalties. so where does this fit into the thread argument?

the matter of playing any form of music to a listening or dancing group is a public performance.......therefore subject to a fee to the performing right assc,nothing to do with royalties they are payed in an earlier part of the proccess and not by people who are playing the music.

[boba]

who is royalty? has anyone labelled you anything...no, so no need for you to make things worse by inflaming matters is there just because someone has a different set of beliefs.

I can't tell if you're joking here.

it's a shame youtube dose not live by the same rules as a venue regarding OVO. at the end of the day youtube has a big audience, so why is it ok to upload boots, cds and in some cases just put a picture of the front of wigan casino or a fist, yeah that should do the trick. there is nothing like seeing that label and seeing the actual record, forget all these fancy videos.

get the soul police on youtube!, and when they are done, they can start looking through the soul source.

whats the difference between an audience on the web and an audience at a soul nite?

same with this one, although awesome either way.

[Dave Rimmer]

when the original copies were sold, whether it was 20 or 20,000, the artist got royalties. so where does this fit into the thread argument?

In the majority of cases with small labels the artist didn't get royalties (they were just happy to either get a one off fee, or just happy to make a record), or if they did they were swallowed up by the recording costs. The only people that theoretically made money were the copyright holders for the song, ie the writer (or the record label owner who bought the song for a one off fee from the writer and then registered it in his own name)

So the question of royalty payments is completely irrelevent in terms of forty year old vinyl.

[Guest]

Laptops Jesus Christ I'm back down the boozer for a couple more pint's of mild ..............that's got top be the end

I say chap do you really believe anyones gonna really play Tommy Hunt on ( if you are refering to spark records) Jesus I'm really gonna get pissed now my man.Seriously hands up who's played that one out? could have gone for Yvonne Vernee on Groovy Grooves mate regards ect.

He could have picked 'loving on the losing side' though...A great record in my book, one of the best british recorded cuts ever....

[Guest sharmo 1]

if i buy an original copy of a record off a seller/dealer, will they personally send royalties to the artist & songwriter? I very much doubt it... same as selling a second hand million seller to a mate or family member! not condoning the playing of boots (which most of us have), this is just a poor excuse to fan flames regarding the topic.. if its a legit format (vinyl,CD MP3 or whatever), then they will hopefully get royalties. but those formats arent allowed by the soul police either? it has to be OVO according to Royalty. all very confusing

when the original copies were sold, whether it was 20 or 20,000, the artist got royalties. so where does this fit into the thread argument?

Good evening young man hope you're keeping o.k boss .Most original copies are ofcouse second hand and any royalties would(should ) have been paid when the record was released and sold by the distributor , for instance if you sold a third hand wartburg or fith hand lada you wouldn't be expected to pay the manufacturers a percentage of what you got for said piece's of crap.Ironicly new old stock and secondhand records sold by larger dealers like John Manship ect who are V.A.T regestered have 20% paid to the British Government yes another band of crooks .All the re issues sold by me are usually imported and duty paid again to the government ,The Tramp lable ,Daptone and Kay-Dee output are all legal and licened and all right's paid.It's not my fault that I sold a second hand copie of something on grapevine or the like whether dues have been paid or not however at the end of the year yet again I'll have to do another cheque to the inland revenue for any money I've made.So the real criminals are Inland revenue U'K I don't see them in a mad rush to pay any money to the likes of Willie Tee ect.See you soon mate Simon.

[Guest sharmo 1]

He could have picked 'loving on the losing side' though...A great record in my book, one of the best british recorded cuts ever....

I agree sir.

[Guest sharmo 1]

He could have picked 'loving on the losing side' though...A great record in my book, one of the best british recorded cuts ever....

I agree sir.

Exactly sir a mad man's nightmare.

[jocko]

£í¢"š¬í¢"š¬

Good comedy writes itself to quote that much missed Raven hunter Brett Franklin.

(insert swearword of your choice) me, 10 pages of drivel and the 2 people who hit it on the head are:

(a) Bob A, with his played out comment. Surely really the crux of this argument and the ethos many of us follow is summed up in that one sentence. An amazingly sharp insight considering he has never been on the scene, is from a different continent/culture and I suspect views us as bunch of fu**ed up cooks that at least share his obsession with vinyl (well at least only some do as this thread proves) and therefore are a little safer than the normal lunatics on the internet, and we are certainly a lot funnier, although mostly unintentionally.

(b) Pete Smith, as much as it almost gives me physical pain to agree with Peter publicly, particularly on this subject given his normal delight in being contrary. But if you think about it, his it depends answer is now the only one, with the myriad of scenes out there and the myriad of personalities (at least 2 per person I suspect) there really is no one size fits all answer now, as much as us "soul police" would love it to be otherwise.

Runners up in the spot on category to these 2 were Mr McCabes comment about you should only need to look at DJ's names to know, blindingly obvious if you think about it and 100% correct for the sort of people I associate with, but to be honest seems to pass most people by.

And finally Cliffords comment, that I would slightly change to be if you need to ask you shouldn't be (insert swearword of your choice) djing (and that includes both sides of the argument) or running nights or doing anything related. Spot on as always Mr Steele.

I love the raw passion that Russ and others have for this, I sometimes need an extra shot of Gin to add to the three in my coffee at bedtime wondering why I don't have that anymore, but the thing that always sends me to sleep soundly at night is knowing that those that try and justify anything other than what Russ and cohorts admirably defend, have never been on the same scene as I was! Fact.

In many ways for me this argument needs to be put to be bed and the debate should be on tired old biggies being regurgitated and people playing an hour of massive and expensive tunes that have been played constantly for years. As someone says, go to the right venues discussion won't be about format it will be about quality, and about the dj's balls to play certain things, and then start to challenge this whole rare is good/bad and focus on whether its good and differnt, surely that is the utopia.

Some of the playlists I have seen on here, all original and rare but really show as much originality as a Bob Monkhouse joke, and are often more painful.

Okay back to my bed and rehibernate, just waiting on the stair lift.

[Wiggyflat]

In the majority of cases with small labels the artist didn't get royalties (they were just happy to either get a one off fee, or just happy to make a record), or if they did they were swallowed up by the recording costs. The only people that theoretically made money were the copyright holders for the song, ie the writer (or the record label owner who bought the song for a one off fee from the writer and then registered it in his own name)

So the question of royalty payments is completely irrelevent in terms of forty year old vinyl.

It is relevant in relation to boots.....good deal/bad deal/one off fee. The artist actually agreed with the manager/label owner to release product and whether it was cash in hand/session fee/contract the actual artist agreed.Playing original vinyl and you are not feeding the bootleg industry.......the bootlegger who is pressing up hundreds of copies has had no such contract and the money goes straight into his coffers.Playing original vinyl and you are giving these artists legitimate exposure which in turn may give them work opportunities/links with legitimate record companies and income.Playing/ buying current bootlegs and you are feeding the criminals and denying artists possible revenue.Apparently Tainted Love was the most booted record.....how much has Gloria Jones lost out on?.It seems that boot playing is an excuse for lazy deejays.One of the funniest things I saw at an Olympia record fair last year was Jimmy Page trawling through CD's looking for bootlegs.He takes it personally.I was involved in recovering master tapes and rare recordings for Cat Stevens.His studio was burgled in Highbury and his master tapes were sold to Eastern European organised crime gang in Poland.Suffice to say that they were recovered and he was a very grateful man.The gang planned to flood the market with bootleg CD's. This was at a time just before a relaunch of his music career.If you had seen how it affected him then you would think twice about buying current bootlegs.

Edited October 10, 2011 by wiggyflat

[Premium Stuff]

IMO a fake is a fake is a fake - whether fake Rolex, fake DVDs, fake tenners, or fake Northern Soul.

What is the opposite to OVO?

NOVO (not OVO)

BVO (bootleg vinyl only)

CVO (counterfeit ...)

Cheers

Richard

Edited October 10, 2011 by Premium Stuff

[Guest Carl Dixon]

May I say UK public venues are still accountable for PPL and PRS royalty payments through their blanket agreement charge they pay to each society. Whether the split is fair when their payments are credited to song writers etc, or whether those old songs get an individual credit is another kettle of fish (legal radio airplay has to generate a playlist using ISRC numbers and all sorts of other things). Todays technology will soon have trackers in venues I think, and anything played will be recognised by the audio waveform and the data returned to the society without anybody even knowing, via data lines. And probably in time records played will be correctly administered with a song writing residual to the writers, and the label/performers (if UK PPL members etc) from being played almost anywhere. In fact I would say, in time it may be likely that all the songs whether original vinyl, bootleg, CD, digital, will generate the royalties like never before...so in effect, the bootleg may affect the original sales, but...ironically could earn a royalty that filters back to those involved with the production of the recorded works. The software is based on a number of apps that are even available now...I think SoundHound is one of them!

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Wiggyflat - those are excellent points.

[KevH]

I agree sir.

Exactly sir a mad man's nightmare.

Very H.Bosch

[Guest]

Very H.Bosch

more of a Dali man myself

and its still OVO!

[Wrongcrowd]

I don't understand why a DJ would want to play an original or bootleg of a track that's so played out it has been bootlegged.

Spot on!

A perfect insight to the difference between those of us that want to keep things moving on, and others that are content with the playlist from a scene they left 30+ years ago.

[Gilly]

Simon my friend,amongst that shit collection of yours have you still got that old original/bootleg acetate that was once mine called He Wont Stay only i would like it back.all the best Nicola

[Paul Shirley]

utter load of .

Spot on!

A perfect insight to the difference between those of us that want to keep things moving on, and others that are content with the playlist from a scene they left 30+ years ago.

utter ...incorrect and presumptuous ...i'll leave it at that !!

Edited October 11, 2011 by chalky
swearing edited...if you must swear like that edit it and maybe give a reason for your reply?

[boba]

utter load of .

utter bollocks ...incorrect and presumptuous ...i'll leave it at that !!

what is your opinion on originals vs. boots on youtube?

[Paul Shirley]

they just booted the vondells i heard oh' but im confused it must be old hat. and im sure every body and his dog must have a copy of mello souls ooohhh arnt you just sick of hearing those, nah they where boots i heard they must be old worn out oldies from sombodys playlist of 30 years ago' why would they want to boot those then .... not coz there just stonking good records surely ?

anyway back on topic ... i blame promotors , around the northwest the playing of boots is rife and not just at soul nights. its not about having the records anymore thats for sure

Edited October 11, 2011 by steptoe

[Guest giant]

if it sounds exactly the same I couldnt give a fook if it was played on jews harp and spoons

you bad taste

[boba]

they just booted the vondells i heard oh' but im confused it must be old hat. and im sure every body and his dog must have a copy of mello souls ooohhh arnt you just sick of hearing those, nah they where boots i heard they must be old worn out oldies from sombodys playlist of 30 years ago' why would they want to boot those then .... not coz there just stonking good records surely ?

apparently they only boot old hat records , yeah right

just to be clear (thanks for actually giving a reason): the reason it's important to play originals is to keep people from hearing a record too much and getting tired of it?

[Paul Shirley]

quote bobo ....I don't understand why a DJ would want to play an original or bootleg of a track that's so played out it has been bootlegged.

maybe im wrong . but its the above post that in my opinion gives the impression your saying that if a record is bootlegged it must be old and played out ?

what im saying is no i dont agree ....simples ,

[Paul Shirley]

just to be clear (thanks for actually giving a reason): the reason it's important to play originals is to keep people from hearing a record too much and getting tired of it?

anytime

Edited October 11, 2011 by steptoe

[Russ Vickers]

if i buy an original copy of a record off a seller/dealer, will they personally send royalties to the artist & songwriter? I very much doubt it... same as selling a second hand million seller to a mate or family member! not condoning the playing of boots (which most of us have), this is just a poor excuse to fan flames regarding the topic.. if its a legit format (vinyl,CD MP3 or whatever), then they will hopefully get royalties. but those formats arent allowed by the soul police either? it has to be OVO according to Royalty. all very confusing

when the original copies were sold, whether it was 20 or 20,000, the artist got royalties. so where does this fit into the thread argument?

No it doesnt..........it has to be played from its original format, thats the only criteria for me.

Best Russ

[boba]

maybe im wrong . but its the above post that in my opinion gives the impression your saying that if a record is bootlegged it must be old and played out ?

what im saying is no i dont agree ....simples ,

i'm guessing the vast majority of bootlegs are. do you disagree with that?

[Guest sharmo 1]

Simon my friend,amongst that shit collection of yours have you still got that old original/bootleg acetate that was once mine called He Wont Stay only i would like it back.all the best Nicola

Hi you two hope your o.k very tricky reallly obviously I still have said piece of work and I'll let you have it when I'm ready (Carl and Maria still pestering me for Brenda Holloway's "lonely boy acetate as well) however not just yet .By the way you know who officaly departs on the 24th of this month as you know who has key's to new home.See you soon Simon.

[Chalky]

maybe im wrong . but its the above post that in my opinion gives the impression your saying that if a record is bootlegged it must be old and played out ?

what im saying is no i dont agree ....simples ,

Well they are booted because they are popular and had a lot of spins at clubs. You don't see many boots of unknowns do you

[Guest sharmo 1]

If it wasn't for downloads there would not be a "modern" scene (in it's true sense ie current releases) - many many tunes never see the light of day on vinyl or cd - fortunately OVO is not a consideration on this scene but original downloads - now you're talking !

Hi there epic this now get's stranger as if memory serves me well (it shouldn't really!) Soularis's "Change the world" was download only untill it's release on Street Soul (This is not about your reply but back to the original thread topic )does that mean that the streat soul release is strangly not an original( I have to point out that Street soul is a legit and very proffesional lable ran by Andy Davis who has impecable credentials) and therefore would be fround on as it's V and not download(abr to DL) or ODL I feel an amendment to article 1 comming here chaps!! regards ect.

[Matt]

No- If a job's worth doing it's worth doing well!!!

Plenty of great originals at low prices if cost is an issue!

The people who pay on the door deserve to hear original recordings!

[Anais nin Carms]

Why not have a poll on the subject , it would be interesting to see the paying customer ( dancer ) point of view on this, because as a collector your view is going to point to originals only. Be good to see the numbers that take an interest too responding to a very important question , perhaps times are a changing and its not as important to the mass attenndance as it used to be ?

Personally I can understand wanting to protect an over £1000 investment , we could look at it another way inorder to play these records with safety maybe it would be better to stop people coming to the decks and also to make sure a good standard of equipment is enforced/checked before such records are played ?

Have you ever spun with a needle that has a coin on it for example ?

What causes needle burn , is that down to bad equipment ?

Just remembered when Dave Rimmer was waiting to go on , he had pulled a numbe rof records to play on the slant and another dj came on stage leaned on the table and all Daves records fell backwards .... it was a cringing moment I can tell you.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Carms

[Winnie :-)]

Why not have a poll on the subject , it would be interesting to see the paying customer ( dancer ) point of view on this, because as a collector your view is going to point to originals only. Be good to see the numbers that take an interest too responding to a very important question , perhaps times are a changing and its not as important to the mass attenndance as it used to be ?

Personally I can understand wanting to protect an over £1000 investment , we could look at it another way inorder to play these records with safety maybe it would be better to stop people coming to the decks and also to make sure a good standard of equipment is enforced/checked before such records are played ?

Have you ever spun with a needle that has a coin on it for example ?

What causes needle burn , is that down to bad equipment ?

Also suggested this Carms, would set it up but don't know how?

[Anais nin Carms]

Well lets ask for a moderator to do one for us ? I htink its important to identify if a collector or a dancer is answering the question. Dj's would fall into the collector catagory.

Are you a collector ?

Are you a dancer ?

Are you a dancer and a collector

Will you dance to bootlegs ?

Will you dance to a carver if the record is unissued ?

Must it be an original for you to dance to it ?

Are you not bothered either way ?

[jocko]

Well lets ask for a moderator to do one for us ? I htink its important to identify if a collector or a dancer is answering the question. Dj's would fall into the collector catagory.

Are you a collector ?

Are you a dancer ?

Are you a dancer and a collector

Will you dance to bootlegs ?

Will you dance to a carver if the record is unissued ?

Must it be an original for you to dance to it ?

Are you not bothered either way ?

You missed the general point, who gives a F*** about what others think, do what you think is right. Its becoming almost laughable the need to justify the alternative scenes existance,

Personally if you care, you care, and you know where to go and who to avoid. No poll needed for that.

People who don't care are on a different scene and planet from the one I was on, and I assume others still fighting to keep alive. No poll needed to tell you that, you can smell a non believer from miles away. No poll needed for that.

If people need a poll to justify what they do, they should be a politician. Otherwise close this thread before some other half baked nonsense on how to run a scene that has been doing fine its own rights for 40 years by people who get it is thought up.

I really do despair.

[Chalky]

As there has been two or three suggestions for a poll I will set one up. Memory says we have had one before though.

[Anais nin Carms]

As in all debates usually this is the way to get your accurate answer , but you must take into account its a SS poll and could be different to the general public , sorry if it offends you personally Jocko but this is the only way to get the answer to the question asked and it also avoids any indifferences personal comments against any individuals , as it is such an emotive subject.

[Mike]

you lot serious ?

Will you dance to a carver if the record is unissued ?

you going to ask that ?

god help us!

[sepia]

im with jocko on this.

no poll needed.

it wont change me from collecting/playing originals & it wont change them who play boots.

last thing we need is for more I TOLD YOU SO.

[soulsalmon]

Well lets ask for a moderator to do one for us ? I htink its important to identify if a collector or a dancer is answering the question. Dj's would fall into the collector catagory.

Are you a collector ?

Are you a dancer ?

Are you a dancer and a collector

Will you dance to bootlegs ?

Will you dance to a carver if the record is unissued ?

Must it be an original for you to dance to it ?

Are you not bothered either way ?

Bit missing Carmen

i.e.,if a collector/dj,would you attend a venue that played boots

[Anais nin Carms]

lol why do I feel like i have ventured into the forbidden zone they are only questions , nobody is going to ask you to change your own private preference ?

Don't you want to hear other peoples opinions , or is this more about declaring your own interest/view ?

[Simsy]

no poll needed.

Quite. Or an eight page thread done for the umpteenth time on here!

It's simple, if you're charging folk to get in, you must play ovo, otherwise you are ripping punters off.

Carver's & such all fine & dandy, folk should know the score by now.

[soulsalmon]

mine was only a question also

[Epic]

Quite. Or an eight page thread done for the umpteenth time on here! It's simple, if you're charging folk to get in, you must play ovo, otherwise you are ripping punters off. Carver's & such all fine & dandy, folk should know the score by now.

IMHO that is where the argument falls down carvers are the same as bootlegs !!!!

[Pete Eccles]

IMHO that is where the argument falls down carvers are the same as bootlegs !!!!

Let's go round again, save starting another thread in a few weeks, just keep going back to the beginning every 8 or so pages,

[Simsy]

IMHO that is where the argument falls down carvers are the same as bootlegs !!!!

Respect your honest opinion. So are you saying Keith Money and myself should not be playing the unreleased 'Some day the sun will shine' Deon Jackson track? As bad as a boot in your opinion? (Serious question).

[Chalky]

Respect your honest opinion. So are you saying Keith Money and myself should not be playing the unreleased 'Some day the sun will shine' Deon Jackson track? As bad as a boot in your opinion? (Serious question).

Someday The Sun Will Shine actually exists on an acetate. As far as I'm aware 3 or 4 acetates/dubs/cuts (whatever you want to call them, vinyl carvers didn't exist then) were cut by the owner and given to some other DJ's. Any done since......I'll leave for you to decide.

[Chalky]

IMHO that is where the argument falls down carvers are the same as bootlegs !!!!

if you own the rights, have the studio tape, permission etc and cut to a carver then it isn't a boot.

[Godzilla]

Why not have a poll on the subject ...

Also suggested this Carms, would set it up but don't know how?

As there has been two or three suggestions for a poll I will set one up. Memory says we have had one before though.

My vote is that we set up a poll to decide whether or not have a poll. My vote is maybe.

[Dave Rimmer]

Respect your honest opinion. So are you saying Keith Money and myself should not be playing the unreleased 'Some day the sun will shine' Deon Jackson track? As bad as a boot in your opinion? (Serious question).

As an original acetate exists, and assuming one of you two owns it, the other shouldn't be playing a carver, it's just a bootleg of the acetate.

[Daved]

Kill me now!!