Is Playing A Boot At A Venue Ever Acceptable

[Ernie Andrews]

Seems to be a little goal post moving here to cover all sides of the debate, either it's right, wrong or it don't matter make your minds up, way back when I started DJ'ing you firstly had to earn your stripes to even get behind a set of decks in the first place as it was almost a closed shop situation fueled by collectors and record dealers, now it seems to be an open house free for all with no rules at all, the very fabric of this scene and the fundimental important factor is it's based on rare soul records, hard to find not often seen and without the authentic tunes in the first palce you would have no scene, nothing to play, nothing to dance to and nothing to bootleg.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Couldnt have put it better myself Mark.

People who play boots just want 15 minutes of fame and use the skills of others who have ravaged shops etc to find that new exclusive tune. They are as fake as the bootleg itself. Those who take the stance of It doesn't matter if its a boot well just play tunes off a laptop then! But this is where the hypocrisy comes in as they say only vinyl here when someone turns up with CDs!

I am a fully paid up member of the Soul Police and will continue to be in a job until the hypocrites admit what they are doing is wrong, lazy, cheapskate and provides nothing to better the scene.

[Geeselad]

Luckily most of the punters in the clubs ain't in this esoteric band of bigheads like you lot - ha ha! - just listen to yourselves - there's a real world out there - take part in it now and again and lose the elitist approach to life!

its what its all about for me, same as those guys at the flamingo or brazennose street.

Edited October 9, 2011 by geeselad

[Guest sharmo 1]

As a collector, I don't collect bootlegs

They are not originals.

There is no point in collecting fakes !

Weather it be usa or jamaican records !

if you lot have another view point then so be it

You lot sort your own shit out !

I will carry on collecting originals !

Did you know that there is an invisible alien satalite hidden behind a defunked piece of space junk that is monorting and analising everything that is exchanged either by audio or email to assess how humans think?regards ect.

[Theothertosspot]

Did you know that there is an invisible alien satalite hidden behind a defunked piece of space junk that is monorting and analising everything that is exchanged either by audio or email to assess how humans think?regards ect.

Are these operated by those green aliens in a space ship that I may have seen on a american cartoon series?

[Guest sharmo 1]

Are these operated by those green aliens in a space ship that I may have seen on a american cartoon series?

No mate they don't have bodies but are pure mind .They do however influence certain aspects of human creativity such as cartooists to create a commical idea in the collective world mind from childhood to make humans believe that these noble beings are benign and stupid.Baring in mind they have crossed the vastness of the universe and time to reach the atmosphere of Earth they influence bank's and industry and governments through bribeing them with money to pollute our planet so eventually it would surport thier race as a "jumble of carbon cell's" that is not compatable with our Earths presant ecological balance.(Furthur reading would be chariots of the god's or beyond the frontiers of the mind by Bhagwham shree Rajneesh or OSOH.)So you better watch out man.Regards ect.

Edited October 9, 2011 by sharmo 1

[Geeselad]

I play it of the Kent Anniversary 45. Horace the first legitimate release (for sale) seeing as it was previously unissued. Any legitimate release is ok although I wouldn't play one if it exists on an original US release, thats just me though others have a different opinion.

Now I've always wondered with these, did melba get a royalty from the promo only anniversary? or is it better to play a horaces one, where perhaps she got she got at least some financial reward? Adey can you put us straight? you dont HAVE to pay royalties on promo copies do you?

[Guest]

I did a radio show a few weeks back and took a 100 box of originals to play. It never occured to me to make a CD or take a laptop along. That's just me, some others might burn a CD or take mp3s, to each his own.

I suppose I approached it the same way I approach DJing a regular night, my box reflects my playstyle, my interests, my personality, my choices, and no one elses. I couldn't do it with boots.

I agree with Chalky, if you've been invited along as a guest, then take your vinyl. I don't imagine the host would be happy if you turned up with a few retail CDs he could have put on himself.

Thanks for your reply Matt.

Although the guy who invited me wouldnt care if they were all boots or not, I found the highlighted bit of your post interesting. That was the kind of reply I was looking for

regards,

mike

[Guest sharmo 1]

so you are indeed a " knower kind" how intriguing .

Oh my friend are you a devotee of Rajneesh and the neutral sentiant being mind melt Luiz ? nice to meet a re thinker at last remember leave no footprints .With meatha Simon.

[Guest]

I find it hard to imagine why you would want to collect fakes

When it comes to collecting anything !

I mean.............................who collects fake stamps or paintings ?

The point is .............. is it ok to play a fake record at a club .

I say NO !

FAKE ! And so is the person playing it !

Is it ok if it it just one fake 45 or a whole set or fake 45s ?

Well you decide !

I already have !

for your information.....i do not collect fakes, i collect music. it pisses me off people like you with idiotic posts like the one above. i asked a question and got an answer only to have you quote me and infer i collect fakes. if that is what you think, i guess you would be very surprised if you seen what i do collect. i spend hundreds on records and am constantly buying more .... i would think there are sellers on here who would vouch that statement but to be quite honest .... its non of your god damn business what i collect

to use Pete Smiths words, f*cking pathetic

Edited October 10, 2011 by mikecook
offensive language removed

[Dave Abbott]

I really don't see the problem with it

[Dave Abbott]

I agree, for sure

[MELS]

I collect what I can afford, whether original or second issue vinyl or cd/ download etc. If I dj'd, which will never happen, for my own pride I would want to put original vinyl on the decks for all the reasons most collectors can think of. Each to his own, but I do think it's poor when a dj puts a bootleg on the decks, knowing that the dj following him or her has the real deal to play in their box. There are thousands of decent original, affordable records to dj with. I have emotions attatched to those records I struggled to get, despite having the music in some other format. I would feel cheated if I was a dj robbed of the chance to share that record by someone with a £5 bootleg. Entirely selfish, but hey-ho. More imagination may also prevent stagnation, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[boba]

I don't understand why a DJ would want to play an original or bootleg of a track that's so played out it has been bootlegged.

[Chalky]

Now I've always wondered with these, did melba get a royalty from the promo only anniversary? or is it better to play a horaces one, where perhaps she got she got at least some financial reward? Adey can you put us straight? you dont HAVE to pay royalties on promo copies do you?

think you will find they are all properly licensed.

[Russ Vickers]

What ever is the case you can guarantee Ady will have ensured 100% that any Kent/Horaces release is kosher I would put next months salary against that....

Russ

[Russ Vickers]

Also there are many cases were the artists didnt get properly paid from the original legit releases - so its kinda difficult to judge whether a record should be played or not using JUST this criteria.

Russ

[Bridgesoceity]

LP tracks that get released on 45 with the heaading, "now available on 7inch" for you to play out at last!, what a joke!, anybody playing these 45's are playing "non originals" IMO, Get Rhetta Hughes LP in your collection coz if you play the "I Cry myself...." re-issue (boot) 45 out at a soul night then your a "fake", "non original" in my eyes!

[Guest sharmo 1]

Are you speaking with Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, and I know you are as I have just telepathically joined him in higher space and he spoke of you.

He told me that your collection is shit and you play bootlegs.

M

Not really speaking to him as died a couple of years ago He never saw my collection however my northern collection is over 22,000.originals and I do have about 1000 re issues that I play at home don't like waring out exspencive items my reggae collection is loosley the same so I supose your right mate my collection is shit kindest regards Simon.

[Mike]

to use Pete Smiths words

f*cking pathetic is what he used

if going to play that game then do try and get things right

[Guest]

f*cking pathetic is what he used

if going to play that game then do try and get things right

sorry.

i have corrected it

[Wiggyflat]

The boots of the seventies were to fill an insatiable demand that the record companies were not filling.The kids wanted the sounds.They could not readily buy the sounds and the void was filled with the bootlegs.The only other alternative was to tape the sounds.There was no internet and those that bought the boots didn't think about the moral implications.We are thirty plus years on and you can now get the music legitimately...People had to travel to hear the latest sounds which was why there were fewer venues/better attendances and more tunes being broken.I know that Dave Godin and "he who shall not be named" were very vocal against the bootleggers and deejays had to cover up to enable them to give tracks a longer shelf life.I know that by playing a seventies boot the money is not going into criminals pockets now.I don't buy boots but are there people still manufacturing northern boots in this day and age?.I just don't get it?.So you are buying a modern vinyl boot and feeding the criminals pockets.You are denying an American artist their deserved dues.Why don't you play a cd and at least the artist will have had the chance of some recompense.Is it vanity? oh look I'm playing vinyl?.If it is then it is a deluded vanity and you are actually destroying the ethos of the "the scene" ie paying tribute in your own small way to the music of black America.You are denying an artist financial recompense.. At least from the original pressing they did get money (whether it was a goo deal/bad deal/flat fee or not),you are contributing to stagnation (there are dedicated people out there who trawl through boxes of crap to find these gems) .Think of the scenario where all the venues that play originals(and the deejay/crate diggers) die out leaving the boot playing deejays.Where are the next big sounds coming from?? Joe Jama etc etc would not have been discovered.The boot playing deejays are not going to be looking for records.The record dealers would die out.I personally have friends who have northern bootleg/CD collections who deejay at local events.I refuse to go and they can't understand it.The argument is "snob" "elitist" ...........they don't understand that when you get into it you get into it and that includes original vinyl and the ethos of "keeping the faith" and not just lip service.

Edited October 10, 2011 by wiggyflat

[MELS]

I don't understand why a DJ would want to play an original or bootleg of a track that's so played out it has been bootlegged.

At the end of the day, it goes back to the other old chestnut of same old stuff, playing safe, getting the punters on the dance floor, fear of mixing it up and being remembered as the dj who cleared the dance floor etc.

At Derby, for me, the cameras on the decks gave an extra dimension to the music, which would not have been fulfilled by a succession of Stardust lables. The majority of people going out at the weekends don't give two hoots about the originality (in all senses), although strangely, still demand vinyl. Roll on the proliferation in recent years of copies of anything and everything it seems. Supply and demand. More available copies, legitimate or not, means more plays, more likely to get overplayed, more stagnation. Each to his own. Try Youtube.

[Guest Marky Tee]

At the end of the day, it goes back to the other old chestnut of same old stuff, playing safe, getting the punters on the dance floor, fear of mixing it up and being remembered as the dj who cleared the dance floor etc.

At Derby, for me, the cameras on the decks gave an extra dimension to the music, which would not have been fulfilled by a succession of Stardust lables. The majority of people going out at the weekends don't give two hoots about the originality (in all senses), although strangely, still demand vinyl. Roll on the proliferation in recent years of copies of anything and everything it seems. Supply and demand. More available copies, legitimate or not, means more plays, more likely to get overplayed, more stagnation. Each to his own. Try Youtube.

Yeah Youtube soul nites at a semi-detached near you!!!!!

Cheap beer, intimate venue, no talc please its a sod to get out of the carpet.

[MELS]

I've got laminate; talc is fine.

[Guest Marky Tee]

I've got laminate; talc is fine.

Wow how posh are you?????????????

[Citizen P]

The boots of the seventies were to fill an insatiable demand that the record companies were not filling.The kids wanted the sounds.They could not readily buy the sounds and the void was filled with the bootlegs.The only other alternative was to tape the sounds.There was no internet and those that bought the boots didn't think about the moral implications.We are thirty plus years on and you can now get the music legitimately...People had to travel to hear the latest sounds which was why there were fewer venues/better attendances and more tunes being broken.I know that Dave Godin and "he who shall not be named" were very vocal against the bootleggers and deejays had to cover up to enable them to give tracks a longer shelf life.I know that by playing a seventies boot the money is not going into criminals pockets now.I don't buy boots but are there people still manufacturing northern boots in this day and age?.I just don't get it?.So you are buying a modern vinyl boot and feeding the criminals pockets.You are denying an American artist their deserved dues.Why don't you play a cd and at least the artist will have had the chance of some recompense.Is it vanity? oh look I'm playing vinyl?.If it is then it is a deluded vanity and you are actually destroying the ethos of the "the scene" ie paying tribute in your own small way to the music of black America.You are denying an artist financial recompense.. At least from the original pressing they did get money (whether it was a goo deal/bad deal/flat fee or not),you are contributing to stagnation (there are dedicated people out there who trawl through boxes of crap to find these gems) .Think of the scenario where all the venues that play originals(and the deejay/crate diggers) die out leaving the boot playing deejays.Where are the next big sounds coming from?? Joe Jama etc etc would not have been discovered.The boot playing deejays are not going to be looking for records.The record dealers would die out.I personally have friends who have northern bootleg/CD collections who deejay at local events.I refuse to go and they can't understand it.The argument is "snob" "elitist" ...........they don't understand that when you get into it you get into it and that includes original vinyl and the ethos of "keeping the faith" and not just lip service.

Which is exactly the reason there were 92 do's this weekend. I refuse to believe that they were all playing originals.

The fact that any one can buy virtually any record and play it out is what is gonna kill this scene.

I am fed up to the back teeth of wannabe Dancefloor Diva's telling me that they can't afford to buy the originals.

Tough Sh*t-neither can I, but i can afford to buy some good ORIGINALS.

Like I've said before if you run a night and you want a Classic oldies night, employ the DJ's that have got 'em!!! there's plenty out there.

The Music used to special, you had to travel to hear it.

Now, sadly, it's just another commodity.And ther is little or no reason to get off yer Sofa and track it down if any fecker can play it for you at the end of the Street.

If you get it, you get it.

If you don't.......

ATB

Tony

[Winnie :-)]

Why doesn't someone set up a poll, I'd do it but not sure how.

Something along the lines of:

1. Original vinyl only

2. vinyl only

3. Not too bothered one way or the other

4. Can't be bothered to vote.

Soul source has 16000 members, should get a fair representation if people bother to vote?

[Chalky]

one post removed because of inappropriate language. If you can't edit your swearing then it will be removed.

Please cut the off topic as well

[Guest]

NO. Ruins everything. Just such a shame there are so many people nowadays who do not think stuff like this matters. This scene was built on elitism and exclusitivity, like it or not, but now it seems it's open house (in certain areas) for any wally who wants to call himself a DJ...

[Guest]

it's a shame youtube dose not live by the same rules as a venue regarding OVO. at the end of the day youtube has a big audience, so why is it ok to upload boots, cds and in some cases just put a picture of the front of wigan casino or a fist, yeah that should do the trick. there is nothing like seeing that label and seeing the actual record, forget all these fancy videos.

get the soul police on youtube!, and when they are done, they can start looking through the soul source.

whats the difference between an audience on the web and an audience at a soul nite?

[MELS]

Why doesn't someone set up a poll, I'd do it but not sure how.

Something along the lines of:

1. Original vinyl only

2. vinyl only

3. Not too bothered one way or the other

4. Can't be bothered to vote.

Soul source has 16000 members, should get a fair representation if people bother to vote?

Thinking about the people I know who attend venues, the majority want vinyl, but don't care about it's originality and probably wouldn't bother to read this topic let alone participate in a poll. Kind of skews the results. Biggest argument I've had with my ex since we split was over Northern Soul. He dances to it every week, but he doesn't collect vinyl and doesn't differentiate between discs.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Hey Rich I was just waiting for you to come on so we could have a ding-dong.

I think it matters. I don't think it's a hanging offence. I think people should do what they do and not watch what others are doing.

I also think whilst generally it's true about elitism and exclusivity when you look back especially pre-Stafford there were quite a few big names playing some tracks [not many] on Emi's. I knew Richard well. He had some.

What gets my goat is collectors/djs who don't have their 45s in alphabetical order in pristine white sleeves with colour coded inners [red for Detroit obviously] and individual "Y" shaped plastic middles in every 45 inserted in exactly the same way with single prong at 6'o'clock position. Luckily I've realised this is a mental illness and some of the posts on here are very similar.

ROD

[MELS]

Why doesn't someone set up a poll, I'd do it but not sure how.

Something along the lines of:

1. Original vinyl only

2. vinyl only

3. Not too bothered one way or the other

4. Can't be bothered to vote.

it's a shame youtube dose not live by the same rules as a venue regarding OVO. at the end of the day youtube has a big audience, so why is it ok to upload boots, cds and in some cases just put a picture of the front of wigan casino or a fist, yeah that should do the trick. there is nothing like seeing that label and seeing the actual record, forget all these fancy videos.

get the soul police on youtube!, and when they are done, they can start looking through the soul source.

whats the difference between an audience on the web and an audience at a soul nite?

You have total control over what you choose to listen to and you have the opportunity to trawl a wider source of music. Would personally prefer to see the record, but some prefer a fancy video for whatever reason, not always to disguise the origin of the record.

Some collectors who don't dj, take the time and trouble to upload the very stuff that isn't widely played or bootlegged. Down side is, it has cost me more in original vinyl when I've been sufficiently inspired to get my own copy.

[Wiggyflat]

Which is exactly the reason there were 92 do's this weekend. I refuse to believe that they were all playing originals.

The fact that any one can buy virtually any record and play it out is what is gonna kill this scene.

I am fed up to the back teeth of wannabe Dancefloor Diva's telling me that they can't afford to buy the originals.

Tough Sh*t-neither can I, but i can afford to buy some good ORIGINALS.

Like I've said before if you run a night and you want a Classic oldies night, employ the DJ's that have got 'em!!! there's plenty out there.

The Music used to special, you had to travel to hear it.

Now, sadly, it's just another commodity.And ther is little or no reason to get off yer Sofa and track it down if any fecker can play it for you at the end of the Street.

If you get it, you get it.

If you don't.......

ATB

Tony

Well if you promote a do and you play original vinyl and have an ovo policy stick it on your flyers and promotion.I know we all have our difference in music policies rare soul/latin soul/funk/oldies/northern etc etc and don't always see eye to eye but it seems that a battening down the hatches spirit is probably coming as the current amount of venues is unsustainable in the current economic climate.I live in the south east and there are several different types of clubs on.I may not like all the music played but I know that it is played with the original ethos of the scene in mind. You can't even blame it on age either.Joel Maslin is a young dj kid but he has more suss than a lot of people three times his age.I don't particularly like the style of music he plays but i admire his integrity and ethos about playing records from original vinyl and his hunger for new sounds.Playing boots is lazy deejaying and for people with no pride/integrity. .

[Russ Vickers]

Do you know what the is the most ridiculous thing about this whole thread ?......that we even have to discuss it !!!.

Russ

[Winnie :-)]

Do you know what the is the most ridiculous thing about this whole thread ?......that we even have to discuss it !!!.

Russ

it would appear 15,900 soul source members heartily agree with you

[Guest]

Hey Rich I was just waiting for you to come on so we could have a ding-dong.

I think it matters. I don't think it's a hanging offence. I think people should do what they do and not watch what others are doing.

I also think whilst generally it's true about elitism and exclusivity when you look back especially pre-Stafford there were quite a few big names playing some tracks [not many] on Emi's. I knew Richard well. He had some.

What gets my goat is collectors/djs who don't have their 45s in alphabetical order in pristine white sleeves with colour coded inners [red for Detroit obviously] and individual "Y" shaped plastic middles in every 45 inserted in exactly the same way with single prong at 6'o'clock position. Luckily I've realised this is a mental illness and some of the posts on here are very similar.

ROD

Now funny you should say that ROD, because PETE WIDDISON has been bugging me for years for not keeping my records in perfect alphabetical order....give PETE a pile of 100 records and they will be ABC'd in a couple of minutes...he says it's got something to do with star signs though, not mental illness !!!

[Len]

Do you know what the is the most ridiculous thing about this whole thread ?......that we even have to discuss it !!!.

Russ

It's not an issue is it mate?

Len.

[Geeselad]

Also there are many cases were the artists didnt get properly paid from the original legit releases - so its kinda difficult to judge whether a record should be played or not using JUST this criteria.

Russ

Fair point, Russ, I really wasnt trying to be mischeiveious about this, just curious. it would be a little peverse if the anniversary one's, that we all want, were the only ones where the artist didnt get any dough, but as you say there are all kinda reasons that an artist didnt get payed, even in the 6ts.

[Russ Vickers]

Fair point, Russ, I really wasnt trying to be mischeiveious about this, just curious. it would be a little peverse if the anniversary one's, that we all want, were the only ones where the artist didnt get any dough, but as you say there are all kinda reasons that an artist didnt get payed, even in the 6ts.

Its an interesting point mate & I would be interested to know too........I'm sure Ady would have done the right thing tho'.

Best Russ

[Ted Massey]

I recently got "booted" my word for having stuffed played on boots that you would have played, mind it does make you play something different which aint a bad thing imo

[Steve L]

Thinking about the people I know who attend venues, the majority want vinyl, but don't care about it's originality and probably wouldn't bother to read this topic let alone participate in a poll. Kind of skews the results. Biggest argument I've had with my ex since we split was over Northern Soul. He dances to it every week, but he doesn't collect vinyl and doesn't differentiate between discs.

you're well shut of him duck

[Ernie Andrews]

Ive been very opinionated in the past about this subject because it destroyed what was a perfectly good scene up here.

The point of the punters dont care what is on - is not true by the very post that they still prefer vynil! Its Like saying come to a a fashion show of fake designers- How many would go and spend their money to see fakes of original designs! Yet they are quite happy to attend venues today playing bootlegs which are in essence fakes. I accuse those people of either ignorance or moral corruptness. Ill let them answer if they dare!

I dont get promoters who should know that the persons they employ either play OVO or boots yet I see a big weekender coming up and one of the DJs on the bill blatantly plays boots! Why is this person employed to be the same bill as some great DJs who have worked their socks off to gain their reputattion only for the bootleg DJ to be seen as part of the club / circle whatever you want to call it. He will play some top sounds that will get the floor bouncing but they wont be originals and in my view undermines the legitimate Djs who spend hours researching haggling/buying negotiating and working the record into a set to make things work.

I just dont get it!

[Guest]

It's not an issue is it mate?

Len.

[Guest gordon russell]

Does anyone actually ever use the term 'OVO' when out and about?

Perhaps it's just me, but I cringe everytime I see it posted up, and can't believe that anyone uses it as a term of reference for a venue/DJ etc as normal conversation?

"OMG did you go to that nighter last night, it's just right 4U cus it's 100% OVO and a fab night IMO."

FFS

heres a thought mate.......by and large the places you and l frequent the problem of boots hardly if ever crops up.......but like you when l see events advertised using language such as you,ve described lol.....you almost know it,s a big fat sign telling you DON,T GO!!!

[Ady Croasdell]

Now I've always wondered with these, did melba get a royalty from the promo only anniversary? or is it better to play a horaces one, where perhaps she got she got at least some financial reward? Adey can you put us straight? you dont HAVE to pay royalties on promo copies do you?

It's a very good point. Melba wouldn't have got anything for the promo as it was an agreed deal to promote the track for its future release. It certainly worked as the 45 has been out on at least 4 or 5 different labels, catalogue numbers or re-presses and has notched up a lot of sales for which she would be earning royalties. So Horaces and later Kents would earn her the moolah, but 6T3 or whatever it was, made those possible.

For a regular release I think there is a percentage limit on the number of promos you can issue compared to the amount you press but don't quote me.

Ady

[Mace]

heres a thought mate.......by and large the places you and l frequent the problem of boots hardly if ever crops up.......but like you when l see events advertised using language such as you,ve described lol.....you almost know it,s a big fat sign telling you DON,T GO!!!

Terry, do you reckon anyone out there has bought an OVO number plate for their car yet.........?

Edited October 10, 2011 by Mace

[Guest]

[Geeselad]

It's a very good point. Melba wouldn't have got anything for the promo as it was an agreed deal to promote the track for its future release. It certainly worked as the 45 has been out on at least 4 or 5 different labels, catalogue numbers or re-presses and has notched up a lot of sales for which she would be earning royalties. So Horaces and later Kents would earn her the moolah, but 6T3 or whatever it was, made those possible.

For a regular release I think there is a percentage limit on the number of promos you can issue compared to the amount you press but don't quote me.

Ady

Thanks Adey, very pertinent piont reminding me the of true purpose of promo copies, ie not to make rare soul collectors salivate, but to actually increase sales of the actual release.

[Ian Parker]

if i buy an original copy of a record off a seller/dealer, will they personally send royalties to the artist & songwriter? I very much doubt it... same as selling a second hand million seller to a mate or family member! not condoning the playing of boots (which most of us have), this is just a poor excuse to fan flames regarding the topic.. if its a legit format (vinyl,CD MP3 or whatever), then they will hopefully get royalties. but those formats arent allowed by the soul police either? it has to be OVO according to Royalty. all very confusing

when the original copies were sold, whether it was 20 or 20,000, the artist got royalties. so where does this fit into the thread argument?

Edited October 10, 2011 by parkash