Is The 'Upfront' Soul Scene Disappearing Up It'S Own A*se?

[Len]

Is The ‘Upfront’ Soul Scene Disappearing up It’s Own A*se?

So why 1500 at Oldies v 300 tops at Upfront venues?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Strong title I know folks and in no way meant in a derogatory manner - I’ll explain…

…I was reading Soul Sam’s article in Manifesto which was basically about this (My sub title) One point Sam made was that he couldn’t ‘Comprehend’ why on the same weekend most folk chose to go to a mainly oldies weekender over a very well known and established ‘Upfront’ all-nighter. He actually said ‘defies comprehension‘, so like many people who attend these upfront nights is very bothered by it.

Putting aside the obvious reasons why lots of venues ‘in general’ are suffering (too many events, weekenders, politics etc) This thread is to ask for your views on why there is such a difference in attendance between the two.

I hear certain things when I’m ‘Out and about’ for example, ref to stuff like ’No compromise’ I‘ve heard folk say - “It puts us off going” - I know a judgement can’t be made just off the back of a few comments so I’d like to know if ‘In general’ there is anything about the ‘Upfront’ side of the soul scene that stops some of you ‘returnees’ or staunch oldies fans from coming along and is there anything that you think could be done to attract more people to the upfront venues.

Is it because there seems to be no happy medium between the two? In your eyes, do the two types of venue go from one extreme to the other? Personally I think more could be done at the huge oldies All-nighters to include more upfront sounds in the main rooms, rather than just an additional small room. Many times I’ve heard real oldies fans crying out for something a bit different. I suppose the promoters of these events have the attitude of ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ which is a real shame (Especially when I hear ‘Philly Dog Around The World’ is played no less than three times!)

Is there a ‘Superiority’ vibe that comes across from ‘Upfront’ soul fans? - As I said, this is purely based on what I’ve heard people say and I am not accusing anyone or any venue of this myself.

Would putting someone like Brian Rae in the line up of an upfront event make it appeal to more people?

I think most people like all types of soul music (In this case oldies and upfront) and whatever ‘Camp’ they may be in would welcome a night where it is evenly split, both complimenting each other.

All this is just me ‘Thinking out loud’ and just to confirm, it’s not a case of - ‘Len get some sleep mush!’ :O) (Copyright Paul Donnelly) - Over to you guys, I‘m keen to hear others opinions.

Remember the 90’s soul scene, The Ritz Manchester etc, oldies fans and upfront fans enjoying ‘Good soul music’ together in the same HUGE hall - Are them days really numbered?…

Yours sincerely,

Len.

Edited September 18, 2011 by LEN

[Guest Paper Tiger]

For me personally it's a case of losing touch with friends over the years and now not having anyone I know that is interested that I can go with. I like all sorts of soul music though Northern first, but also like some of the new stuff too.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Paper Tiger

[Guest jb000]

Big event promoters like Bev Koberts has a strict code of conduct for HIS dj's that under no circumstances what so ever are they to play anything other than the most obvious top wigan, cleethorpes, torch etc etc classics, failing to do so will result in them being removed from the line up and swiftly replaced by another dj prepared to tow the line in the "conveyour belt" ritual of djing at a big event, also. I believe 90% of the punters that attend the main rooms only, really cant be arsed to listen to anything new which is their choice and ok by me. Their money, their choice. I think rare underplayed rooms are bettrer suited to "2nd" rooms with a smaller capacity and tighter atmosphere which i personally like. I dont think 6ts 100 club would be the same if it were in a venue like the big ones used at Stoke etc.

I personally dont want the records i like and collect to "crossover" to the "main stream" northern rooms where no doubt they will be hammered to death and end up like so many good records do, "Moribund"!!

[Hill868]

Think you're probably right, unfortunately. I personally think there has always been a lot more oldies fans than those interested in new / rediscovered / newly found/ different sounds, even going back to the mid to late 70's, and it got progressively worse when the boys of 69-75 approx made their mid-life crisis comeback in the early to mid 90's ! I think that a scene that is now some 45 years old is rapidly running out of people who want to hear or dance to an unknown 1968 storming Philly obscurity, a fantastic little known 78 soulful west coast mover, or a slightly funky obscure 73 small label soul gem - we're getting older, little new blood is going to appear, and a lot of the punters going now all seem to want the older established / familiar / played out classics, just look at the number of oldies and motown nights up and down the country every weekend. I actually persuaded myself to attend the Spalding soul night at the Sugar Beet club last night, and it was everything i expected (worst case scenario realised several times over) !!! Example - after numerous overplayed things, i asked the next DJ to put on a couple of uptempo 70's, his response was to play 'Itching in my heart ' Supremes, and then another Motown 45 i'd only heard 986 times before. More comments please ! Jez.

[Timbob]

i went to derby assembly rooms last night and basically felt trapped.the oldies room was so banal and overplayed,and theres a reason why the stuff being played in the rare and underplayed room was being played in there ,because it was crap.sorry if this offends people but i have tried on numerous occasions to listen to this stuff,and whenever i hear it just reminds me of the dregs at the bottom of a barrel of fine wine.if the people playing this music think it has any validity, then stop using the umbrella of northern soul to advertise it and strike out on your own. a rare and underplayed northern soul room should be exactly what it says not obscure RnB and latin based music that would be best used on come dancing.

[Chalky]

i went to derby assembly rooms last night and basically felt trapped.the oldies room was so banal and overplayed,and theres a reason why the stuff being played in the rare and underplayed room was being played in there ,because it was crap.sorry if this offends people but i have tried on numerous occasions to listen to this stuff,and whenever i hear it just reminds me of the dregs at the bottom of a barrel of fine wine.if the people playing this music think it has any validity, then stop using the umbrella of northern soul to advertise it and strike out on your own. a rare and underplayed northern soul room should be exactly what it says not obscure RnB and latin based music that would be best used on come dancing.

Sorry but I didn't play any obscure R&B nor any Latin in the rare room last night. Much of what I played was uptempo 60's soul music, few 70's early on in the set.

No one forced you to go in there nor to Derby Assembly rooms itself.

Northern Soul is a term not a type of music. Its umbrella covers a wide range of music, pop, soul, R&B & latin and others.

[Mace]

i went to derby assembly rooms last night and basically felt trapped.the oldies room was so banal and overplayed,and theres a reason why the stuff being played in the rare and underplayed room was being played in there ,because it was crap.sorry if this offends people but i have tried on numerous occasions to listen to this stuff,and whenever i hear it just reminds me of the dregs at the bottom of a barrel of fine wine.if the people playing this music think it has any validity, then stop using the umbrella of northern soul to advertise it and strike out on your own. a rare and underplayed northern soul room should be exactly what it says not obscure RnB and latin based music that would be best used on come dancing.

FFS Len, lock this thread before Dazdakin and Wiggyflat arrive

[Winnie :-)]

i went to derby assembly rooms last night and basically felt trapped.the oldies room was so banal and overplayed,and theres a reason why the stuff being played in the rare and underplayed room was being played in there ,because it was crap.sorry if this offends people but i have tried on numerous occasions to listen to this stuff,and whenever i hear it just reminds me of the dregs at the bottom of a barrel of fine wine.if the people playing this music think it has any validity, then stop using the umbrella of northern soul to advertise it and strike out on your own. a rare and underplayed northern soul room should be exactly what it says not obscure RnB and latin based music that would be best used on come dancing.

If you felt trapped in the 'oldies' room because they were playing ''overplayed'', and you didn't like the 'rare underplayed' room, what would you actually advocate as a way forward. Or did you just really want to have a dig at the rare room? No axe to grind by the way, just curious as you seem to like neither?

Winnie

[Winnie :-)]

Is The ‘Upfront’ Soul Scene Disappearing up It’s Own A*se?

So why 1500 at Oldies v 300 tops at Upfront venues?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Strong title I know folks and in no way meant in a derogatory manner - I’ll explain…

…I was reading Soul Sam’s article in Manifesto which was basically about this (My sub title) One point Sam made was that he couldn’t ‘Comprehend’ why on the same weekend most folk chose to go to a mainly oldies weekender over a very well known and established ‘Upfront’ all-nighter. He actually said ‘defies comprehension‘, so like many people who attend these upfront nights is very bothered by it.

Putting aside the obvious reasons why lots of venues ‘in general’ are suffering (too many events, weekenders, politics etc) This thread is to ask for your views on why there is such a difference in attendance between the two.

I hear certain things when I’m ‘Out and about’ for example, ref to stuff like ’No compromise’ I‘ve heard folk say - “It puts us off going” - I know a judgement can’t be made just off the back of a few comments so I’d like to know if ‘In general’ there is anything about the ‘Upfront’ side of the soul scene that stops some of you ‘returnees’ or staunch oldies fans from coming along and is there anything that you think could be done to attract more people to the upfront venues.

Is it because there seems to be no happy medium between the two? In your eyes, do the two types of venue go from one extreme to the other? Personally I think more could be done at the huge oldies All-nighters to include more upfront sounds in the main rooms, rather than just an additional small room. Many times I’ve heard real oldies fans crying out for something a bit different. I suppose the promoters of these events have the attitude of ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ which is a real shame (Especially when I hear ‘Philly Dog Around The World’ is played no less than three times!)

Is there a ‘Superiority’ vibe that comes across from ‘Upfront’ soul fans? - As I said, this is purely based on what I’ve heard people say and I am not accusing anyone or any venue of this myself.

Would putting someone like Brian Rae in the line up of an upfront event make it appeal to more people?

I think most people like all types of soul music (In this case oldies and upfront) and whatever ‘Camp’ they may be in would welcome a night where it is evenly split, both complimenting each other.

All this is just me ‘Thinking out loud’ and just to confirm, it’s not a case of - ‘Len get some sleep mush!’ :O) (Copyright Paul Donnelly) - Over to you guys, I‘m keen to hear others opinions.

Remember the 90’s soul scene, The Ritz Manchester etc, oldies fans and upfront fans enjoying ‘Good soul music’ together in the same HUGE hall - Are them days really numbered?…

Yours sincerely,

Len.

Len, for me the scene has a proliferation of 'I know what I like and I like what I know' style punters and DJs, and never the twain shall meet. There are two distinctly separate scenes, one is based on attending a social occasion (the majority of punters) the other is based on moving the scene forward. When northern hit the big time mid 7Ts, what was being played then has forever been ingrained in a lot of punters minds as the perfect description of the term northern soul. In effect it was a fad when it went public, jump forward a few years, most of the people who joined at that time went off to have families etc, when they ( I include myself in this) came back, they wanted to hear familiar sounds, which is cool if you're only going out once a month and to say only a couple of nighters a year. The problem for me came because I was out every weekend, soul night Friday generally a nighter Saturday, so the same sounds soon became boring, so from a personal point of view I gravitated to rarer events, But that was a personal choice, I didn't want to just go out once a month, so natural progression was to strike out and find something different. The majority of the northern scene it would appear aren't too worried about what's being played, so the obvious way forward is to now distinguish properly between the two scenes and accept that educating people will only happen if said person wants to be educated, then he/she will find an upfront venue. Just my opinion

[Anais nin Carms]

i went to derby assembly rooms last night and basically felt trapped.the oldies room was so banal and overplayed,and theres a reason why the stuff being played in the rare and underplayed room was being played in there ,because it was crap.sorry if this offends people but i have tried on numerous occasions to listen to this stuff,and whenever i hear it just reminds me of the dregs at the bottom of a barrel of fine wine.if the people playing this music think it has any validity, then stop using the umbrella of northern soul to advertise it and strike out on your own. a rare and underplayed northern soul room should be exactly what it says not obscure RnB and latin based music that would be best used on come dancing.

Hello tim

I just want to say don't judge a rare / underplayed room on one visit , keep an open mind and you will receive so many pleasures,

These rooms are unlike the main rooms , Dj's in the rare rooms have their own style and taste and they can differ vastly to what you hear in a main room, because that is the whole point of the room to give you the unexpected .

Not saying everyone is good though I can see your point if you get a full R&B set and you are not into it , your ears can bleed just as much as mine can listening to Pookie in the main room.

I recall hearing one guy play a full set of very slow ballads one night in an underplayed room and we all felt like slitting our throats or going to sleep lol .... The trick is to keep it varied and play the tempo according to the mood and time.

Lets recomend something for you to listen too that you might hear in this room and see if you still have the same thoughts...come on guys show Tim some hidden treasures.... source these in utube and tell me what you think ? ... because its those rare rooms that give us a chance to air these fantastic records that would not see the light of day in a main room.

Esquires - You got the power

Puzzles - My sweet baby

Cody Black - trying to be someone

Variations - I wanna take you uptown

Four Mints - You wanna come back

Composers - Channces go round

Bob Collins - Inventory on heartaches

Intertains - I need your love

Inspirations - Gotta find a way

Impressions - Get up and move

Edited September 18, 2011 by Carms

[Guest]

I've come to the conclusion that debating the whole oldies vs rare/underplayed divide does nothing but widen the split between them. It's all been said, everyone and his dog has put forward their opinion in one of the threads about it.........yet I'd bet not a single person has changed from their original viewpoint.

I like oldies and love going to a good oldies night. But my main passion is for the rare/underplayed scene because I love hearing stuff that's new to me or stuff I've not heard for a long time. Not all oldies nights churn over the same hammered 100 tunes again and again, there are plenty that play a broad mix of classics, forgotten classics and a few lesser known sounds. At the same time I've yet to attend a rare night that plays crap/obscure RnB or latin all night, in my experience the main emphasis at rare venues is on uptempo 60s and early 70s a mix of soul, RnB, latin, funky throughout. Yet the number of people on here who post about how all the rare nights play crap, undanceable mid-tempo RnB seems to increase all the time..............so I can only assume I'm attending different rare venues than all those people have been to????

[Timbob]

its not a dig at the rare room, i can think of lists and lists of under played records. i just think the djs on the night were trying to go in another direction, which is fine in a stand alone venue ,but when its connected to main room playing classic oldies,it would of been nice to have a second room playing more obscure oldies

[Supercorsa]

I've come to the conclusion that debating the whole oldies vs rare/underplayed divide does nothing but widen the split between them. It's all been said, everyone and his dog has put forward their opinion in one of the threads about it.........yet I'd bet not a single person has changed from their original viewpoint.

I second that.

[Timbob]

carms will search these tracks out and get back to you many thanks

[KevH]

i went to derby assembly rooms last night and basically felt trapped.the oldies room was so banal and overplayed,and theres a reason why the stuff being played in the rare and underplayed room was being played in there ,because it was crap.sorry if this offends people but i have tried on numerous occasions to listen to this stuff,and whenever i hear it just reminds me of the dregs at the bottom of a barrel of fine wine.if the people playing this music think it has any validity, then stop using the umbrella of northern soul to advertise it and strike out on your own. a rare and underplayed northern soul room should be exactly what it says not obscure RnB and latin based music that would be best used on come dancing.

Can't have it all ways."Banal and overplayed".Ok ,so you're not happy with that - you've seen it done it.

"Rare room - crap"!!.So i'm guessing you didnt know anything being played,so it must be crap.You have no reference point for stuff being played in that room.Therefore its the dregs.

1500 vs 300...well the 1500 must be right.Amazing though recently how many "oldies brigade" are bored with the top 500.

I was at Derby.Knew what to expect in the main room.That's why i stayed in the other room,talking about and dancing to records.

Dont feel the need to knock the main room.Lots of people enjoyed themselves.

Can you remember bitd when the classics were rare,Searling, Levine and the likes, dug them out, persevered with tunes until they became " banal and overplayed"? The point you're missing is that nearly everyone in the rare room has history stretching back many years on the scene.

Wont be long before the Parliaments is filling the main rooms...or will it? Its rare so it must be crap.

[Anais nin Carms]

carms will search these tracks out and get back to you many thanks

excellent ! no worries if you don't like them , at least you have given them an ear , which is more than most lol

[Winnie :-)]

its not a dig at the rare room, i can think of lists and lists of under played records. i just think the djs on the night were trying to go in another direction, which is fine in a stand alone venue ,but when its connected to main room playing classic oldies,it would of been nice to have a second room playing more obscure oldies

I wasn't at Derby, but having heard Chalky DJ a number of times I'd be amazed if he wasn't playing obscure oldies, so then it would come down to personal taste, your's and his. I'm using Chalks as an example because he said he played Derby last night.

[KevH]

its not a dig at the rare room, i can think of lists and lists of under played records. i just think the djs on the night were trying to go in another direction, which is fine in a stand alone venue ,but when its connected to main room playing classic oldies,it would of been nice to have a second room playing more obscure oldies

It was.Lots of obscure oldies were played.Have you got an example of the sort of thing you'd like to have heard?

I wonder what would happen if i'd have posted negative things about the main room?

Edited September 18, 2011 by KevH

[Ted Massey]

its not a dig at the rare room, i can think of lists and lists of under played records. i just think the djs on the night were trying to go in another direction, which is fine in a stand alone venue ,but when its connected to main room playing classic oldies,it would of been nice to have a second room playing more obscure oldies

so what you really wanted was a 2 rooms oldies nighter

[Billywhizz]

i went to derby assembly rooms last night and basically felt trapped.the oldies room was so banal and overplayed,and theres a reason why the stuff being played in the rare and underplayed room was being played in there ,because it was crap.sorry if this offends people but i have tried on numerous occasions to listen to this stuff,and whenever i hear it just reminds me of the dregs at the bottom of a barrel of fine wine.if the people playing this music think it has any validity, then stop using the umbrella of northern soul to advertise it and strike out on your own. a rare and underplayed northern soul room should be exactly what it says not obscure RnB and latin based music that would be best used on come dancing.

ur not offending me m8, i was in the rare room till 4 30 and the music in there was excellent, then i went downstairs to the oldies room nice little atmosphere, overall it was a good all nighter till the kickboxing fight started thats another story cheers billy

Edited September 18, 2011 by billywhizz

[SOULCENTRAL]

Len, for me the scene has a proliferation of 'I know what I like and I like what I know' style punters and DJs, and never the twain shall meet. There are two distinctly separate scenes, one is based on attending a social occasion (the majority of punters) the other is based on moving the scene forward. When northern hit the big time mid 7Ts, what was being played then has forever been ingrained in a lot of punters minds as the perfect description of the term northern soul. In effect it was a fad when it went public, jump forward a few years, most of the people who joined at that time went off to have families etc, when they ( I include myself in this) came back, they wanted to hear familiar sounds, which is cool if you're only going out once a month and to say only a couple of nighters a year. The problem for me came because I was out every weekend, soul night Friday generally a nighter Saturday, so the same sounds soon became boring, so from a personal point of view I gravitated to rarer events, But that was a personal choice, I didn't want to just go out once a month, so natural progression was to strike out and find something different. The majority of the northern scene it would appear aren't too worried about what's being played, so the obvious way forward is to now distinguish properly between the two scenes and accept that educating people will only happen if said person wants to be educated, then he/she will find an upfront venue. Just my opinion

HI WINNIE,

Your reply to this post of Lens basically sums up and presents the answer to all of the arguments regarding the oldies v rare and underplayed.

Both genres of the soul scene are poles apart musically and the social side of of both genres are poles apart as well.

Too many of the crusaders of the upfront venues and events take the opinion that Northern is just "that old sh*te" but it is all our heritage after all. A lot of the music played at these events seems to me to be of the driving,gritty.r&b type sound that just does not do it for the Northern classics follower and i do not believe it ever will.Some of the nighters and underplayed nights i have visited i think you would struggle to pick a handfull of tunes that you could introduce to the classics crowd.

As you said the Northern punters like what they know and know what they like both musically and socially and it is almost impossible to educate them to anything other than the stompers and classics of late 60s and 70s soul.

Like wise the dj's who cover the rare and underplayed side of the scene constantly drive it forward without any regard to what/who is filling the void behind them aqnd as people age attendances have proved to be on the decline.

There is a growing group of younger followers of the r&u type of event but these guys will be lost to the scene as they seem not to be welcomed and given time at the decks at the established events, and so are promoting their own.

Do i think these events will disappear?, no, but they will become smaller and also the nighter scene will shrink as there is overkill with the number of events.

regards ROY

[Scotters]

I don't know what it was like "before" so not sure I can answer the question as well as maybe others can, but for me personally at this stage, I'm just pleased there's lots of great events out there, and like US 45's, SO many more I've to still discover.

Had a good chat about this with you the other week Len, when we were on the road for 90 mins or so after attending one great little venue, then to another well known one until the early hours. First venue had best part of 100 like minded soul lovers there and AMAZING music played (mid tempo magic!)...Second event had just over 250 there I'd say, was properly "upfront" and again, I loved every minute despite being sober and knowing my girls would have me up within an hour of getting in! Hardly an "oldie" heard all night and dozens of songs I'd never heard before.

Rewind a few months where I experienced Brid and Stoke for the first time (Brid wkender with a good mate who, like me, is fairly new to all this, and Stoke with a seasoned original "Wiganer"..even if like so many others back then he'd have been under age at the time!)...Completely different in terms of HUGE main rooms which blew me away (having never been to a big venue soul night before) and absolutely loved hearing lots of well played classics I knew & dancing with a good 500+ others on massive wooden floor / experiencing the amazing atmos, but then still having choice to nip into a smaller room and hear some great modern soul or more underplayed stuff.

It's fair to say that these and dozens of more local nights I've enjoyed this year have each done "what they said on the tin", so to speak (or the flyer / thread). I think most people like to know what they're getting when they choose to go out for a night / nighter, music style and range included.

As I think I commented on Lou's ("Mrs Soul's") thread last week, I'm still finding my feet and just feel pleased I have so much choice, both locally and nationally...Although sometimes too much, like last night when I seriously considered 4 different events within a 70 mile odd radius, and in the end just cracked a bottle of wine open with the missus and had a Saturday night in for a change!

Also, as I do like to buy records on a fairly limited budget, it's great to hear records out for first time which I then find out I can actually track down and afford to buy and enjoy at home too. Great when amazing (and affordable!) records are played alongside equally amazing records that only a very lucky few people will ever get to own.

Rambling now and maybe off topic, but it does still seem strange to me to go out and feel at the "younger" end of the spectrum when I'm far from it, and I think the bigger question remains why so many "younger" soul fans / music lovers generally are missing out...OR is that they know of an amazing soul world and venues which are still "underground" and not on SoulSource etc?!

Sorry if anyone reading this thread is frustrated or has maybe "had enough" of the current soul scene...I'm still pretty much at the start of my journey and loving it.

All the best, Steve.

[Chalky]

What amazes me about all this rare bashing, many of the tracks in the main room (oldies) were rarer than the tracks played in the so called rare upfront room.

The room was called Soul Expression, a room for the DJ's to use a bit of imagination and express themselves unlike in a main room playing the top 200 oldies ever where a DJ isn't allowed to express himself because the punters are stuck in a 40 year old time warp.

[Guest jb000]

i personally cant stomach early R n B and from experience i hear more of it in the main rooms as opposed to hearing it in the underplayed rooms, if a dj starts playing it I just nip out to the record bar until ive missed most of it!, i wouldnt abandon the underplayed room all together just because of an hour or so of tunes i didnt like. I can usually tell whats gonna be what by the dj line up anyway. The rare underplayed room at Bridlington was jolly good this year back in June, tunes that caught me ears over the weekend were, Ronnie McCain-This time I'm gone, Milton & Winston-You Lied, Robert Parkers-Caught you in a lie, to name a few and Carl Fortnum's set was top notch.,

[Guest gibber]

MY wife of 26 years answered this question last week when told her I was going to Darby this weekend .

She commented with

Bunch of fooking has-beens trying to capture there youth , midlife crisis men, menopauses

women .sheep following there mates where ever they go playing music you could hear at home on Wigan compilations .

( something you might expect from someone who doesn’t understand

But darling I will be spending my time in the upfront /rare/ underplayed room with a few like minded people

People with passion for something different you mean , yes I replied ,

Bet you don’t get many of those .

Get my drift .

Nothing wrong with oldies , I still love them and dance to them but when do you get the chance to hear a one off like Sam played in is set Or see his excitement in playing a storming instrumental he picked up days before .

All should be played in the same room

Apologies for any spelling and literature mistakes

[Guest gordon russell]

Never went to derby for er hm obvious reasons ...don,t like the way oldies only rooms operate. Rare and underplayed should also include unknown in it,s definition the trouble with these nights are that there is too much unknown.......more known stuff should be mixed in to make neither boring. We all love the oldies and l certainly love a load of the newer stuff,BUT DJ,S MUST blend the two,trouble is i,m afraid the dj,s that are booked just don,t have the breadth of collections to do this. Derbys second room had dj,s with too varied a musical taste (not complaining at all about any of em ) from Sam to Ted,it just ends up all over the place....going from 60,s to 70.s crossover uptempo down tempo..........it must blend not sure that line up would have done that. not grinding any axe just my observations and knowledge of what each dj would probably play tezza

[Billywhizz]

MY wife of 26 years answered this question last week when told her I was going to Darby this weekend .

She commented with

Bunch of fooking has-beens trying to capture there youth , midlife crisis men, menopauses

women .sheep following there mates where ever they go playing music you could hear at home on Wigan compilations .

( something you might expect from someone who doesn’t understand

But darling I will be spending my time in the upfront /rare/ underplayed room with a few like minded people

People with passion for something different you mean , yes I replied ,

Bet you don’t get many of those .

Get my drift .

Nothing wrong with oldies , I still love them and dance to them but when do you get the chance to hear a one off like Sam played in is set Or see his excitement in playing a storming instrumental he picked up days before .

All should be played in the same room

Apologies for any spelling and literature mistakesLOL

[Johnmcc]

Adam and Chalky, Spot on.

Timbob, I didn't hear anything you describe.

Carms, I didn't hear any of those in your list.

Tez, No.

Len, Numpty! (Hope you're gonna pick up all the worms)

[Mak]

What amazes me about all this rare bashing, many of the tracks in the main room (oldies) were rarer than the tracks played in the so called rare upfront room.

The room was called Soul Expression, a room for the DJ's to use a bit of imagination and express themselves unlike in a main room playing the top 200 oldies ever where a DJ isn't allowed to express himself because the punters are stuck in a 40 year old time warp.

I was only talking about this last night , the oldie rooms are now starting to play rare soul thanks to the likes of Mr Massey etc etc.As for the small room last night the music was nob -on . Grand set last night Chalky

[Guest gordon russell]

Adam and Chalky, Spot on.

Timbob, I didn't hear anything you describe.

Carms, I didn't hear any of those in your list.

Tez, No.

Len, Numpty! (Hope you're gonna pick up all the worms)

hello mate.

just to get this right lol we,ve heard that chalky played a mainly 60,s uptempo set what type of set did the rest play my thoughts are that sam and arthur like things on the modernish side, dave thorley tends to play a more mid tempo set (that,ll please lenny )mick h plays a rare mixed set ted plays mainly oldies/big ticket stuff and joan like to kick it up (good girl lol)........so theres quite a variation there......be interesting to know.........next week as danny would say BRING PLENTY OF WEDGE LOL.........lastly sure everyone had a good time thats the main thing......well except timbob lol......atb tezza

Edited September 18, 2011 by gordon russell

[Cunnie]

I don't know what it was like "before" so not sure I can answer the question as well as maybe others can, but for me personally at this stage, I'm just pleased there's lots of great events out there, and like US 45's, SO many more I've to still discover.

Had a good chat about this with you the other week Len, when we were on the road for 90 mins or so after attending one great little venue, then to another well known one until the early hours. First venue had best part of 100 like minded soul lovers there and AMAZING music played (mid tempo magic!)...Second event had just over 250 there I'd say, was properly "upfront" and again, I loved every minute despite being sober and knowing my girls would have me up within an hour of getting in! Hardly an "oldie" heard all night and dozens of songs I'd never heard before.

Rewind a few months where I experienced Brid and Stoke for the first time (Brid wkender with a good mate who, like me, is fairly new to all this, and Stoke with a seasoned original "Wiganer"..even if like so many others back then he'd have been under age at the time!)...Completely different in terms of HUGE main rooms which blew me away (having never been to a big venue soul night before) and absolutely loved hearing lots of well played classics I knew & dancing with a good 500+ others on massive wooden floor / experiencing the amazing atmos, but then still having choice to nip into a smaller room and hear some great modern soul or more underplayed stuff.

It's fair to say that these and dozens of more local nights I've enjoyed this year have each done "what they said on the tin", so to speak (or the flyer / thread). I think most people like to know what they're getting when they choose to go out for a night / nighter, music style and range included.

As I think I commented on Lou's ("Mrs Soul's") thread last week, I'm still finding my feet and just feel pleased I have so much choice, both locally and nationally...Although sometimes too much, like last night when I seriously considered 4 different events within a 70 mile odd radius, and in the end just cracked a bottle of wine open with the missus and had a Saturday night in for a change!

Also, as I do like to buy records on a fairly limited budget, it's great to hear records out for first time which I then find out I can actually track down and afford to buy and enjoy at home too. Great when amazing (and affordable!) records are played alongside equally amazing records that only a very lucky few people will ever get to own.

Rambling now and maybe off topic, but it does still seem strange to me to go out and feel at the "younger" end of the spectrum when I'm far from it, and I think the bigger question remains why so many "younger" soul fans / music lovers generally are missing out...OR is that they know of an amazing soul world and venues which are still "underground" and not on SoulSource etc?!

Sorry if anyone reading this thread is frustrated or has maybe "had enough" of the current soul scene...I'm still pretty much at the start of my journey and loving it.

All the best, Steve.

Great 100th post Steve & enjoy the journey

[Johnmcc]

hello mate.

just to get this right lol we,ve heard that chalky played a mainly 60,s uptempo set what type of set did the rest play my thoughts are that sam and arthur like things on the modernish side, dave thorley tends to play a more mid tempo set (that,ll please lenny )mick h plays a rare mixed set ted plays mainly oldies/big ticket stuff and joan like to kick it up (good girl lol)........so theres quite a variation there......be interesting to know.........next week as danny would say BRING PLENTY OF WEDGE LOL.........lastly sure everyone had a good time thats the main thing......well except timbob lol......atb tezza

Don't believe everything you hear.

See you next week in the whatever you want to call it room!

[Geeselad]

Big event promoters like Bev Koberts has a strict code of conduct for HIS dj's that under no circumstances what so ever are they to play anything other than the most obvious top wigan, cleethorpes, torch etc etc classics, failing to do so will result in them being removed from the line up and swiftly replaced by another dj prepared to tow the line in the "conveyour belt" ritual of djing at a big event, also. I believe 90% of the punters that attend the main rooms only, really cant be arsed to listen to anything new which is their choice and ok by me. Their money, their choice. I think rare underplayed rooms are bettrer suited to "2nd" rooms with a smaller capacity and tighter atmosphere which i personally like. I dont think 6ts 100 club would be the same if it were in a venue like the big ones used at Stoke etc.

I personally dont want the records i like and collect to "crossover" to the "main stream" northern rooms where no doubt they will be hammered to death and end up like so many good records do, "Moribund"!!

unless they play a ska record.

[Geeselad]

Big event promoters like Bev Koberts has a strict code of conduct for HIS dj's that under no circumstances what so ever are they to play anything other than the most obvious top wigan, cleethorpes, torch etc etc classics, failing to do so will result in them being removed from the line up and swiftly replaced by another dj prepared to tow the line in the "conveyour belt" ritual of djing at a big event, also. I believe 90% of the punters that attend the main rooms only, really cant be arsed to listen to anything new which is their choice and ok by me. Their money, their choice. I think rare underplayed rooms are bettrer suited to "2nd" rooms with a smaller capacity and tighter atmosphere which i personally like. I dont think 6ts 100 club would be the same if it were in a venue like the big ones used at Stoke etc.

I personally dont want the records i like and collect to "crossover" to the "main stream" northern rooms where no doubt they will be hammered to death and end up like so many good records do, "Moribund"!!

unless they play a ska record.

[Mak]

What amazes me about all this rare bashing, many of the tracks in the main room (oldies) were rarer than the tracks played in the so called rare upfront room.

The room was called Soul Expression, a room for the DJ's to use a bit of imagination and express themselves unlike in a main room playing the top 200 oldies ever where a DJ isn't allowed to express himself because the punters are stuck in a 40 year old time warp.

I tell you what Chalky , you really should read a post in lookbacks soulnights entitled ''Grosvenor Rooms get the buzz back .It will make your piss boil , along with most others on here.

[Steve G]

I am with Winnie on this.

Maybe time for the upfront folk to cut their ties with the northern oldies scene. Seems a bit of "if I play some oldies as well the oldies fans will get into upfront stuff". That's true for some who like a bit of everything, but I don't think the majority of oldies fans ever will.

Was talking to a well respected DJ at the weekend, and his observation was that at a local night he does the crowd dance to oldies but play something different and they all start to get upset going for fag moan breaks etc.. These folks ain't never going to get into 'upfront' in a million years. They're not interested in hearing anything new.

At the moment I think there's too many R&U nights for the number of punters who actually appreciate this music, some DJs playing old soul pack rejects etc. Maybe there needs to be a "venue" cull.

Instead of tagging onto the side of oldies rooms and calling it R&u or freebasing or whatever maybe put on a true upfront night, in the middle of the country - no oldies except last hour maybe - 9-2 (sorry Peggy not a Niter) just new and underplayed (like Chalky does) and try and get the younger folk along. See how it goes.

Yer might be pleasantly surprised.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Steve G

[Geeselad]

personally I think both sides have much to answer for. The oldies formula needs the imput and interaction of the rare scene, ( for me an alltogether different animal than upfront) and I've also heard many top jocks spin average sets by applying the why play a great £100 or £10 record, when I can show off and pay a mediocre one that I payed a grand for, mentatilty. But the biggest problem omho is the lack of records crossing over from one scene to the other, where are the Nolan porter, Billy Davis, Gloria Lyn, AC Reed's ect that fed through to virtually every soul night in the country 10 or 15 years ago. the real problem isnt attendences, I'm perfectly happy to dance with 150 like minded souls,, its just so worring how divourced the two scence have become from one and other.

Edited September 18, 2011 by geeselad

[Guest gibber]

hello mate.

just to get this right lol we,ve heard that chalky played a mainly 60,s uptempo set what type of set did the rest play my thoughts are that sam and arthur like things on the modernish side, dave thorley tends to play a more mid tempo set (that,ll please lenny )mick h plays a rare mixed set ted plays mainly oldies/big ticket stuff and joan like to kick it up (good girl lol)........so theres quite a variation there......be interesting to know.........next week as danny would say BRING PLENTY OF WEDGE LOL.........lastly sure everyone had a good time thats the main thing......well except timbob lol......atb tezza

I was there from the start with chalky to the finish with Sam .

Mainly up tempo 60s,some 70s & crossover, .no modern or house , few funk, loads of great dances I didn’t know , mid tempo scattered thought out , Ted, & Joan bringing in the bigger crowds . With Sam & Mick the likes of Joseph Webster , Arthur Willis, the parliaments and many more went down well .

Sam closed the room with the cashmeres don’t let the door hit your back & jimmy bo horn .

When from that to Don Thomas playing in the main room

[Philt]

It has always been a bit of escapism for me and to be honest I feel more like escaping from it at the moment. Virtually everytime you go out or read something on here it's negativity, egos, agendas and sh*te from what feels like a fair few folk. However much time/effort/money/passion or whatever you have [in]vested in it, its a hobby and about having a good time isn't it?

I don't get it, really I don't ...

- Labels attached to everything which serve no constructive purpose. To the contrary IMHO, just divides, fragments and fuels all the tired old arguments and preconceptions and narrows the minds of those who have small ones to begin with

- Minute analysis of everything resulting in a plethora of what some folk seem to think are molten nuggets of bronzed wisdom (occasionally and entertainingly offered-up by those who have a vested interest or other agenda, never leave the house / haven't done so for twenty years, can't dress themself yet, were / still are completely off their tits)

- Mind numbing preoccupations with what individual records cost. WTF has that got to do with anything? Its a total irrelevance in real terms isn't it, whether you're a punter, dj or whatever? It'll either be good enough or not and time and the dancefloor reaction to it will tell you for sure

- I've paid me money so I'll moan like f*ck. Please don't, I'll pay you to stay in

[Mike]

always going to be topics that people dont enjoy

rather than knock such topics or the follow on discussion, why not try and start some ones that take things to different areas ?

[Iancsloft]

There all off there yeds Phil its about having a good time having a laugh listening to some great music meeting up with your mates and making new friends its not a hobby but a way of life, but for Soul Music i would never have met so many wonderful people and become friends with so many had so many great times. Never in a million years when i was starting out on my lifetime of love for Soul music

back in the mid 60,s would i ever have imaged that i would get to meet so many of those great artist singing the tunes i was buying

1970 getting Real Humdinger J.J Barnes wow then years later getting to meet the man himself and chatting away with him Edwin Starr a superstar and all round awesome human being everytime i saw Edwin he took time out to chat and once said laughing that i knew more about Detroitsoul than him to another famous artist. Never forget stood with Gilly at the Prestatyn Weekender listening to Billy Prince and the rest of the guys from the Precisions Thursday lunch on there first visit to the weekender the shivers that went through us has they sang at the end we had tears in our eyes or when Sam Hutchins put his arm around me when i showed him my LaBeat copy of How and he started to sing it to me man o man you cant buy moments like that. Pat Lewis, Sidney Barnes, Ronnie McNeir

Eula Cooper, James Bell , Doni Burdick, Ritchie Pitts Eddie Holman, Jerry Williams Tommy Hunt, Hesitations, Mary Love,Dean Courtney the wonderful James Bell Syl Johnson, Jesse James Nolan Porter, Melvin Davis Major Lance Benny Troy and many many more all these wonderful people who have give so much pleasure to so many with their awesome recordings over the years i have met and spent time talking laughing and listening to thats what its about Soul Music has and still does give me a great feeling ..

If i go to a so called upfront soul nite or a what some call a oldies nite i go to enjoy myself and get away for a few hours from reality

people go out to enjoy themselves so its up to the individual where they go over the years ive been to some dire upfront nites and some dire oldies and modern nites but at the end of the nite ive nearly always had a laugh on the other hand ive been over the years to some truly awesome nites Torch, Highland Room Stafford, Wigan Cas Wilton Middleton Lowton Civic USOS Burnley Niter Capital Soul Club HipCity Berlin the brilliant Prestatyn Weekenders and many many more including the recent Grumpy Soul in Runcorn its about choice get the right dj,s who can get the floor moving and hey presto its not rocket science....

Cant wait for the next instalment of Northern Soul a crackpots guide to having a good time

LOVE , PEACE & HAPPINESS

Ian Cunliffe

:rofl:

Edited September 18, 2011 by IANCSLOFT

[Iancsloft]

always going to be topics that people dont enjoy

rather than knock such topics or the follow on discussion, why not try and start some ones that take things to different areas ?

What about those who live amongst us the beings from other worlds who try and blend in with human kind ive seen many of them at venues over the years they stand out like sore thumbs saw one at Burnley niter few months back he was stood around observing

everything that was going on then got onto the floor to have a go wow man his dancing was straight from another world

[Modernsoulsucks]

Chalky will recall that we were talking about Spoilers on GMC the other day and I said it was OK but I felt it was a bit ordinary compared to others from the time, to which he replied [after getting himself a copy] yes he could understand that but it sounded better than some of the stuff today. I think there is a truth there that in the hunt for upfront or different some less than ordinary records are being played. Or they were the last time I went out.

Phil says:-

Labels attached to everything which serve no constructive purpose.

In this debate people are banging on about upfront etc but it is just a label because if you look where people are giving examples of upfront it encompasses records that I would certainly class as oldies like Bob Collins,Puzzles,Robert Parker or 45s that are current biggies I guess but have been around years like Joseph Webster and Arthur Willis.

In other words upfront means nothing really as everybody has a different idea what it means.

I can't remember where the place was that Phil listed all the records played. Im thinking people would assume it was an upfront night. It was just good records that were worth playing and Im pretty sure I didn't see anything that could be said to stray too far from the Northern template and would be alien to someone used to Top 500 oldies.

ROD

Edited September 18, 2011 by modernsoulsucks

[Anais nin Carms]

Adam and Chalky, Spot on.

Timbob, I didn't hear anything you describe.

Carms, I didn't hear any of those in your list.

Tez, No.

Len, Numpty! (Hope you're gonna pick up all the worms)

Lol no those wern't played on the night I don't think ? I was just trying to give Tim some flavours of what he could hear in an underplayed room , its not all R&B and Latin , the whole tempo/genre world is at your disposal.

In short ...Its a journey if you want it .

Edited September 19, 2011 by Carms

[Mike]

In other words upfront means nothing really as everybody has a different idea what it means

.

could it be said that "upfront" is used more as an sort of actual "attitude" nowadays rather than a descriptive term of certain types of 45s ?

Edited September 19, 2011 by mike
quote from post added

[Anais nin Carms]

It seems to me we are getting entangled in what was played on a specific night ... lets try and get away from specific nights and specific Djs and focus on what Tim or anyone else could hear in an underplayed .. maybe rare soul room .. focus on the positives ?

You know I can remember standing in Tonys and moaning about someone that played something I didn't know ... so I know what this guy is going through , like I said its a journey , leap you will eventually make when you have heard enough of the same records.

Trouble with many is they alienate rather than encourage I think .

[Steve G]

Phil says:-

Labels attached to everything which serve no constructive purpose.

In this debate people are banging on about upfront etc but it is just a label because if you look where people are giving examples of upfront it encompasses records that I would certainly class as oldies like Bob Collins,Puzzles,Robert Parker or 45s that are current biggies I guess but have been around years like Joseph Webster and Arthur Willis.

In other words upfront means nothing really as everybody has a different idea what it means.

I can't remember where the place was that Phil listed all the records played. Im thinking people would assume it was an upfront night. It was just good records that were worth playing and Im pretty sure I didn't see anything that could be said to stray too far from the Northern template and would be alien to someone used to Top 500 oldies.

ROD

Hi Rod, I can agree with a lot of this - as Mike says maybe upfront is a state of mind. One mans oldie etc.

But Ive also said on other threads before that for the vast majority of people whatever music they like, they tend to stop appreciating new music in their early twenties. Same with Metal fans, C&W and Pop. Do a straw poll at work of the forty and fifty-somethings if you don't believe me. Watch em all scrambing onto the internet to get tickets as soon as "Take That" or "phil Collins" anounces another comeback gig.....

Round these 'ere parts though there are most definately two scenes. Play underplayed oldies, upfront, label it what you like, and a lot of folk simply won't get out of bed. As I said you can't even mix a few in anymore. Play "Right track", Drizabone etc, and people will travel 100 miles to a night. Very few pork pie hats though.

Good point from Geeselad about sounds filtering through, essentially there aren't any anymore and that's one of the reasons that I think (maybe not everywhere) there are two very distinct scenes now. It's like a parallel universe.

Of course we all go out to enjoy ourselves, have a mash etc. I would have thought that's a given?

Edited September 19, 2011 by Steve G

[Guest MrC]

What about those who live amongst us the beings from other worlds who try and blend in with human kind ive seen many of them at venues over the years they stand out like sore thumbs saw one at Burnley niter few months back he was stood around observing

everything that was going on then got onto the floor to have a go wow man his dancing was straight from another world

That might have been me Ian, my dancing has been commented on before

[Tai-pan]

.

could it be said that "upfront" is used more as an sort of actual "attitude" nowadays rather than a descriptive term of certain types of 45s ?

Here is how I see it...

Northern Soul consists of different styles of soulful danceable music.

The 'current or upfront' Northern Soul scene is actually quite small, and has been gradually been shrinking for years.

The resurgence in northern soul popularity has been in the 'nostalgic or classic' Northern Soul scene.

These two scenes are quite different and have totally different dynamics and customers expectations.

People like Kev Roberts cater for the 'nostalgic' scene very well.

The nostalgic scene will shrink back very rapidly soon has the age factor kicks in. It will then consist of local social nights and the odd weekender / convention. A bit like it is shaping into now actually.

The upfront scene has probably shrunk to its limit and already bottomed out. There is probably only room for 2 or 3 upfront venues at the very most.

As the nostalgic boom shrinks back, the upfront scene will expand slightly, also by those wanting to crossover into a fresher scene.

The nostalgic scene consists of a few thousand, the current scene consists of a few hundred.

The nostalgic scene is about enjoying the past. The upfront scene is about shaping the future.

[Jumpinjoan]

- I've paid me money so I'll moan like f*ck. Please don't, I'll pay you to stay in