Anyone Know These 4 Records? Value? Collectable?

[Pete S]

Right well these have got me stumped.

ROGER BAILEY - LOST GENERATION - AUDIO FIRTY LONG/SHORT DEMO

I know nothing of this record whatsoever, never heard of it, bit hard to describe but pretty awful, this I think books at 100 but surely not?

THE COMPULSIONS - I CAN'T FIND LOVE / TAKE A LESSON FROM A FOOL - OMEN DEMO

Don't know if it's the same Omen label as brice Coefield etc. Two pretty undistinguished sides really, one fast one slower

BETTY WILLIS - TAKE YOUR HEART - RENDEZVOUS DEMO

Early 60's popcorn-ish

REMARKABLES WITH FRANK WILSON - IS THE FEELING STILL THERE / EASILY MISLEAD - AUDIO ART DEMO

Now obviously I know this one, but have never seen on the Audio ART and not ARTS label, it's on vinyl and has a monarch number

LITTLE SAMMY GAHA - HAD TO RUN / OUT OF MY BRAIN - BARCLAY

Two horrendous sides but I know he has a couple of collectable ones, I presume this isn't one of them!

thanks for looking

Edited August 4, 2011 by Pete S

[Paul McKay]

Remarkables is the same as mine Pete. Not sure the value's any different as people don't take too much care when typing label names

[Harrogatesoul]

Have seen the Roger Bailey quite a few times at £50 but always marking it as £100 'book price' . I sold one about 2 years ago for £20 and I had that for a long time.

[Mal C]

its a funny release, there is also a plain Blue vinyl release that gets described as rare, But never seen it as Audio art..

Mal.C.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Mal.C.

[Benji]

LITTLE SAMMY GAHA - HAD TO RUN / OUT OF MY BRAIN - BARCLAY

Two horrendous sides but I know he has a couple of collectable ones, I presume this isn't one of them!

thanks for looking

You're right, this isn't one of them. Actually I know of only one collectable* Sammy Gaha release "Thank you thank you" which came out in France and later on in Canada.

[Pete S]

Thanks folks.

[Sebastian]

ROGER BAILEY - LOST GENERATION - AUDIO FIRTY LONG/SHORT DEMO I know nothing of this record whatsoever, never heard of it, bit hard to describe but pretty awful, this I think books at 100 but surely not?

Is that the Jimmy Webb penned tune? If so, would love to hear it, purely because of my interest in JW. Is it a soul recording?

[Tony Smith]

Right well these have got me stumped.

ROGER BAILEY - LOST GENERATION - AUDIO FIRTY LONG/SHORT DEMO

I know nothing of this record whatsoever, never heard of it, bit hard to describe but pretty awful, this I think books at 100 but surely not?

THE COMPULSIONS - I CAN'T FIND LOVE / TAKE A LESSON FROM A FOOL - OMEN DEMO

Don't know if it's the same Omen label as brice Coefield etc. Two pretty undistinguished sides really, one fast one slower

thanks for looking

Had the Roger Bailey for years it's only really for Audio Forty completists.

Compulsions is same label as Brice Coefield etc. I Can't Find Love also done by Soul Aggregation on Capitol.

[Pete S]

Is that the Jimmy Webb penned tune? If so, would love to hear it, purely because of my interest in JW. Is it a soul recording?

Yes it is - I'll record it for you and PM it to you if you like

[Sebastian]

Is that the Jimmy Webb penned tune? If so, would love to hear it, purely because of my interest in JW. Is it a soul recording?

Just found a soundclip of it. It utilises the exact same backing track as Jimmy Webb's version on BELL. Webb's version is - if anything - more soulful than Bailey's...

Edited August 4, 2011 by Sebastian

[Sebastian]

-

Edited August 4, 2011 by Sebastian

[Sebastian]

I just pulled out the Jimmy Webb 45 on Bell with "Lost Generation" and the label credits read:

"Produced [...] for Audio Arts Productions"

I've never ever noticed that before and didn't realise that there was a long term connection between JW and Audio Arts!

I now realise that he wrote and arranged several other things for Audio Arts/Forty/Gospel as well (Ron Kenoly, Al Waples, William & Michael, Otto's Organization, Harold Bowen Singers etc.).

Edited August 4, 2011 by Sebastian

[Paul McKay]

Pete my Remarkables has the self same blue(?) wol as yours in the same place too!

[KevH]

I had the Remarkables Pete.Same layout.Think i sold it on here.2 good sides.

[Robbk]

Right well these have got me stumped.

ROGER BAILEY - LOST GENERATION - AUDIO FIRTY LONG/SHORT DEMO

I know nothing of this record whatsoever, never heard of it, bit hard to describe but pretty awful, this I think books at 100 but surely not?

THE COMPULSIONS - I CAN'T FIND LOVE / TAKE A LESSON FROM A FOOL - OMEN DEMO

Don't know if it's the same Omen label as brice Coefield etc. Two pretty undistinguished sides really, one fast one slower

BETTY WILLIS - TAKE YOUR HEART - RENDEZVOUS DEMO

Early 60's popcorn-ish

REMARKABLES WITH FRANK WILSON - IS THE FEELING STILL THERE / EASILY MISLEAD - AUDIO ART DEMO

Now obviously I know this one, but have never seen on the Audio ART and not ARTS label, it's on vinyl and has a monarch number

LITTLE SAMMY GAHA - HAD TO RUN / OUT OF MY BRAIN - BARCLAY

Two horrendous sides but I know he has a couple of collectable ones, I presume this isn't one of them!

thanks for looking

The print on The Audio Art WDJ makes me believe that it's an authentic issue. But I never saw "Audio Art" on that record's WDJ. I'd feel better about its authenticity if I could confirm that the Monarch number places it in the mid '60s, rather than the early '70s (which would make it a boot. Simon Soussan was getting records pressed up at Monarch around '74-'77.

Can you please tell me the Monarch pressing #? It should be somewhere in the low 60,000s to have been pressed in the mid-sixties, when it was released. The Remarkables' follow-up, "I Can't Give Up On Losing You" had a Monarch code of 61230. They didn't have a Monarch stamp on the original store stock issue (at least on my 2 copies). They have only 7000 as the pressing number. They weren't pressed at Monarch. I don't know whether or not that release had any pressing done at Monarch. IF you look at your WDJ, and the Monarch code # is in the 90,000s or 100,000s then we will KNOW it is a bootleg.

[Paul McKay]

Hi Robb

My copy has 58279

[Robbk]

Hi Robb

My copy has 58279

Good! Then, we now can say, for sure, that it's the genuine article.

[Garethx]

I'm not so sure about it being a genuine Monarch pressing: the typesetting is unlike anything else I've seen pressed at the plant.

Here is a definite Monarch WDJ of the record with the 59729 number. Note that it is styrene as you would expect of Monarchs from that timeframe and the typefaces are all exactly from the sets typically used by the company.

[Robbk]

I'm not so sure about it being a genuine Monarch pressing: the typesetting is unlike anything else I've seen pressed at the plant.

Here is a definite Monarch WDJ of the record with the 59729 number. Note that it is styrene as you would expect of Monarchs from that timeframe and the typefaces are all exactly from the sets typically used by the company.

Now that you mention it, I've NEVER seen that print font on a Monarch record, and ALL of their pressings were on Styrene in 1965-66, as far as I remember. And the "Audio Art", and the different label layout still bothers me.

More surprising yet, my original store stock issue has 58250 as its Delta number. Why would they have pressed a run of store stocks and THEN, 29 jobs AFTER THAT (ostensibly 3-6 days after), press up a run of white DJs for that same release? One would think that they had printed up enough DJ copies first, several weeks ahead.

Maybe that's a boot after all.

[Anoraks Corner]

Looks like an East Coast (or Mid-West?) press to me...the layout, font and the way the D.J. COPY NOT FOR SALE is set out is reminiscent of many East Coast labels, no?

[Robbk]

Looks like an East Coast (or Mid-West?) press to me...the layout, font and the way the D.J. COPY NOT FOR SALE is set out is reminiscent of many East Coast labels, no?

Yes! Maybe RCA (Eastern Pennsylvania). So, someone had those pressed up in the mid-late '70s, and then hand etched in all those Delta numbers, to make people believe they are legit WDJs from the '60s.

[Anoraks Corner]

Yes! Maybe RCA (Eastern Pennsylvania). So, someone had those pressed up in the mid-late '70s, and then hand etched in all those Delta numbers, to make people believe they are legit WDJs from the '60s.

On reflection (and after looking at other similarly pressed discs!), my money is now on Audio Matrix, NYC.

With regards to the Delta numbers...possibly three months apart...maybe they submitted a new master, maybe the first got broken, maybe we'll never know...but I doubt it is a case of bootlegger with a scalpel?

[Pete S]

Now that you mention it, I've NEVER seen that print font on a Monarch record, and ALL of their pressings were on Styrene in 1965-66, as far as I remember. And the "Audio Art", and the different label layout still bothers me.

More surprising yet, my original store stock issue has 58250 as its Delta number. Why would they have pressed a run of store stocks and THEN, 29 jobs AFTER THAT (ostensibly 3-6 days after), press up a run of white DJs for that same release? One would think that they had printed up enough DJ copies first, several weeks ahead.

Maybe that's a boot after all.

This one has the 58250 delta number but another stamp which looks like a lower case e with the middle bit of the e running into an upper case A and making up the bar accross the middle of the A, if you see what I mean. Opposite to this it has the scratched in details: 45 - 7000 - AA - RE. Definitely very thick vinyl not styrene though.

[Pete S]

The DJ Copy Not For Sale lettering looks like that on an East Coast Parkway demo doesn't it?

[Paul McKay]

Mine is vinyl by the way

[Pete S]

Pete my Remarkables has the self same blue(?) wol as yours in the same place too!

How weird is that?

[Garethx]

This one has the 58250 delta number but another stamp which looks like a lower case e with the middle bit of the e running into an upper case A and making up the bar accross the middle of the A, if you see what I mean. Opposite to this it has the scratched in details: 45 - 7000 - AA - RE. Definitely very thick vinyl not styrene though.

Hi Pete. I suspect the mark you describe is on all pressings of this 45. It's a hand drawn version of the Audio Arts 'window' logo which appears on the issues and would have been etched at the cutting stage. As for a 45 with a Monarch delta number being pressed at another plant there are rare instances of this. Monarch also had mastering (as well as pressing) facilities. For certain unexplained reasons a client could have had Monarch produce metalwork for another factory to press. Probably not for reasons of cost as Monarch was notoriously the cheapest major pressing operation in the US.

You're spot on about the "Not For Sale" info looking exactly as per the Cameo-Parkway typesetting. The thing that worries me about this 45 is that the rest of the typesetting looks quite unlike any other C-P 45 from the time.

Also worth mentioning that this is not the 'Do I Love You' Frank Wilson but another writer/artist from the same town who also amazingly went on to work for Motown in LA in the 70s. This FW also recorded with his brother as Frankie Vance on Revue.

Edited August 5, 2011 by garethx

[Pete S]

Hi Pete. I suspect the mark you describe is on all pressings of this 45. It's a hand drawn version of the Audio Arts 'window' logo which appears on the issues and would have been etched at the mastering stage. As for a 45 with a Monarch delta number being pressed at another plant there are rare instances of this. Monarch also had mastering (as well as pressing) facilities. For certain unexplained reasons a client could have had Monarch produce metalwork for another factory to press. Probably not for reasons of cost as Monarch was notoriously the cheapest major pressing operation in the US.

You're spot on about the "Not For Sale" info looking exactly as per the Cameo-Parkway typesetting. The thing that worries me about this 45 is that the rest of the typesetting looks quite unlike any other C-P 45 from the time.

Also worth mentioning that this is not the 'Do I Love You' Frank Wilson but another writer/artist from the same town who also amazingly went on to work for Motown in LA in the 70s. This FW also recorded with his brother as Frankie Vance on Revue.

Wow - I'd never have known that, I thought it was definitely 'the' Frank Wilson. Do you think there was any demand for this title to be bootlegged though, especially in this format.

[Garethx]

From the Allmusic guide:

Frank Wilson (b. 1942) grew up in South Central Los Angeles in a house with a piano and musically talented siblings. His father, Thomas, managed the Velvetones, and Frank's sister Ruth married one of the members. The younger Wilsons -- Thomas, Frank, Henry, Vance, and Virginia -- formed the Wil-Sons, a harmony group modeled after the Four Aces, the Ames Brothers, and the Ink Spots They worked the clubs; and waxed a single, thanks to a hookup with L.A.'s legendary record lady Madelon Baker, that never left the 'hood, entitled "Let Me Love You" b/w "Come on Mama," for Highland Records (1961).

Economics break up marriages and disband groups, even family groups, and the Wil-Sons were soon a fond memory. Frank, the most ambitious of the brood, found staff-writing gigs at companies like Del-Fi Records, that paid a laughable 40 dollars a week wages. The siblings regrouped in 1965 as the Remarkables on Baker's Audio Arts label, with smoothies like the Incredibles. The Remarkables were Frank, Vance, Henry, and non-relative David Cason. They cut three good but unremarkable singles (actually two, the second was re-released with an instrumental flip): "Is the Feeling Still There" b/w "Easily Mislead," and "I Can't Give Up" b/w "You Wouldn't Have Anything" -- Frank and Vance handled the leads. The records didn't get far, but they were able to work the clubs.

In the '60s, he wrote some songs for Motown artists, which cause many to confuse him with a more famous Frank Wilson who also wrote for Motown; in addition, both had a connection with Hal Davis. Adding to the perplexity, both Wilsons recorded, albeit briefly, for Motown. This Frank Wilson performs (unaccredited) on "Oh How I Miss You" (written by Hal Davis, Frank, and Vance) with Tammi Terrell, on Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell's United album. The other Frank Wilson recorded "Do I Love You (Deed I Do)," which did nothing in the States, but is an extremely popular and rare favorite with the Northern soul club.

With Vance, he recorded for Revue Records as Frankie Vance, pumping out two singles in 1969: "Can't Break the Habit of Love" and "Somewhere in Your Life." He finally received some acclaim when he started writing songs with Barry White, a lifelong friend, in the '70s. ~ Andrew Hamilton

[KevH]

How weird is that?

Think my old copy had a red "mark" just the same.Same place.

Not FW?..i always assumed it was."Easily misled" is another Wilson on lead,cant remember the name atm.

edit:just read Gareth's post....

Edited August 5, 2011 by KevH

[Modernsoulsucks]

FFS, Bob's posts belong in the "conspiracy theories" thread. Confused the hell out of me.

To recap 58250 is "..still there"

58279 is "...mislead" [sic] He sings "misled"

Was Bob asking why there's a 29 gap there? Run out groove #'s dont always follow on. See ZTSC

Gareth, your layout is different to my West Coast promo but I see both have LA address which Pete's doesn't. Not a local pressing then?

My promo of other Remarkables cut is on vinyl but then it's distributed by Bell/Mala.

ROD

[Garethx]

FFS, Bob's posts belong in the "conspiracy theories" thread. Confused the hell out of me.

To recap 58250 is "..still there"

58279 is "...mislead" [sic] He sings "misled"

Was Bob asking why there's a 29 gap there? Run out groove #'s dont always follow on. See ZTSC

Gareth, your layout is different to my West Coast promo but I see both have LA address which Pete's doesn't. Not a local pressing then?

My promo of other Remarkables cut is on vinyl but then it's distributed by Bell/Mala.

ROD

Hi Rod

re: two label layouts for the Monarch demo; Monarch used two local printers for labels, one called Alco Research and one called Bert & Co. I'm guessing the one in the scan above was typeset at Bert by the use of Spartan Bold, Spartan Bold Condensed and Trade Gothic Condensed (TG18 and TG20 variants). Spartan was the Linotype version of Futura. The Alco labels from this time tended to use Franklin Gothic Bold for title and artist information. As to why they would use two separate print houses for labels on demo copies of one release I have no idea, but there are lots of examples of Monarch-pressed releases where this is indeed the case. If there is a scan of the other Monarch demo of The Remarkables I would be interested to see it in order to test my theory.

[Tony A]

This one has the 58250 delta number but another stamp which looks like a lower case e with the middle bit of the e running into an upper case A and making up the bar accross the middle of the A, if you see what I mean. Opposite to this it has the scratched in details: 45 - 7000 - AA - RE. Definitely very thick vinyl not styrene though.

A side 58250, B side 58279,

A side 45 - 7000 - AA - RE, B side 45 - 7001 - AA - RE,

As on yours Pete very heavily scratched in on thick vinyl.

Scanner not as good as my camera, but sons taken it on hols.

[Robbk]

A side 58250, B side 58279,

A side 45 - 7000 - AA - RE, B side 45 - 7001 - AA - RE,

Sorry. Had I simply turned over the store stocker, I'd have seen that there was a gap of 29 press code numbers in legit pressings, and that wouldn't have come into question for the "Audio Art" WDJ.

Edited August 5, 2011 by RobbK