Manships Auction Results ! What

[bri pinch]

true, the americans.... in the main, werent interested in these sort records until they knew we wanted em

[KevH]

true, the americans.... in the main, werent interested in these sort records until they knew we wanted em

,apart from writing,recording,label designing,what did the Americans do for us...

[Pete S]

,apart from writing,recording,label designing,what did the Americans do for us...

All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Americans done for us?

[Guest turntableterra]

i have one simple philosphy, if i want it............i get it.

of course i want a bargain but i also look at how often i see items over a purchase period spanning nearly forty years. delola carmicheal is a case in point. i had a jimmy burns from tim brown for 3300 and within a year john got over 5400 for it even though johns price list goes no where near that if two people want it then who knows, and it has never gone that far since. any how, without johns price guide you would all be giving your vnyl away. ill post my adress later. LOL so well done john

[Anoraks Corner]

Yes - as it states at the beginning of all our guides values are for MINT- vinyl and FLAWLESS labels. All values we adjust according to condition, demand market conditions. A point every has overlooked the values also include 20% uk purchase tax = VAT .

I believe we all acknowledge the JM Price guides as a fabulous reference point, well put together and the major influence on pricing. However, 2011 values have taken a tumble across the board (bar the top end true rarities) since the publication of the 5th guide. Therefore, in order to be a credible up to date guide, I firmly believe that the 6th edition prices need downward adjustment...probably as many as 75% of the titles?

With regards to the 20% UK purchase tax...surely this phrase is only used by the full-time dealers when making their transactions...have you ever heard anyone else mentioning it at a event, "Yea, this is worth £300 in the JM guide, so take 20% off for the tax, so it's worth £240 - oh and it has a pen mark on the label so that's at least another 10% off, so it's actually worth, in accordance to the guide, about £210...call it £200, mate"?

Possibly more importantly, this additional 20% isn't mentioned in the 5th guide at all! Would it not be more accurate to state the valuations not including the 20% extra, especially as these rates do not apply to every country...and Northern Soul collecting is a worldwide phenominum?

An intro page in LARGE PRINT clearly stating that prices are made up from the database, reflect 100% mint condition and any taxes included, would be very useful when trying to explain to fellow collectors/delers that they shouldn't expect £300 for a vg disc with writing all over the label, just because it says £300 in the guide!

Food for thought?

[Guest turntableterra]

i love the guides, its a guide...and great reading...very usefull against rippoff merchants trying to flog bootlegs as legitimate copies....my policy is easy, if i want it i buy it

would i use anyone else, no. trust and respect count for a lot more than 50 quid cheaper. i believe there is a lot more going on in the world today that is affecting the prices than all this tosh about a price guide. buying has never been better................its probably sellers who are less happy when their records dont hit the prices that they were. prices at auction are guided more when 2 or more people want the same. i had a jimmy burns for 3300 quid, john sold it and got 5700 after 8 months. no hype. much more than the guide. was i happy yes. i sold a demo of darrell banks at a loss, was i mad. no. wiegh up over time, its called swings and roundabouts............

[Chalky]

buying has never been better................

I can remember days when it was better for the buyer. The 80's for instance many records you see today for daft silly prices were at reasonable and even cheap prices. I'm sure those buying in the 70's will tell you a similar story.

Even 10 or 15 years ago when the internet started taking off for record buying on ebay, in the days of dial up broadband when broadband was considered a luxury you could get all sorts for next to nothing. Now everyone is clued up. Every one wants mint prices for vg graded records, buying has definitely been better.

[Steve L]

i love the guides, its a guide...and great reading...very usefull against rippoff merchants trying to flog bootlegs as legitimate copies....my policy is easy, if i want it i buy it

would i use anyone else, no. trust and respect count for a lot more than 50 quid cheaper. i believe there is a lot more going on in the world today that is affecting the prices than all this tosh about a price guide. buying has never been better................its probably sellers who are less happy when their records dont hit the prices that they were. prices at auction are guided more when 2 or more people want the same. i had a jimmy burns for 3300 quid, john sold it and got 5700 after 8 months. no hype. much more than the guide. was i happy yes. i sold a demo of darrell banks at a loss, was i mad. no. wiegh up over time, its called swings and roundabouts............

Let me get this straight, are you saying you'd rather pay £50 more for a record to buy it from JM rather than someone else? And buying has never been better - for who ?? People with large bank accounts??

You like paying more for stuff do you? Does this policy also apply to your other financial outgoings? you must have plenty thats all I can think

[Pete S]

Every one wants mint prices for vg graded records, buying has definitely been better.

That's an odd statement, I sell EX / MINT records at usually less than they appear anywhere else and I sell VG records for the price of VG records, yesterday I sold a Shane Martin in VG for £20 and an Ila Van on PIP in VG for £20, so I wasn't asking £75 each for them!

[Pete S]

Let me get this straight, are you saying you'd rather pay £50 more for a record to buy it from JM rather than someone else?

It really does take all sorts

[Chalky]

That's an odd statement, I sell EX / MINT records at usually less than they appear anywhere else and I sell VG records for the price of VG records, yesterday I sold a Shane Martin in VG for £20 and an Ila Van on PIP in VG for £20, so I wasn't asking £75 each for them!

Everyone maybe an exaggeration but you only have to browse lists these days and ebay , look at some of the starting bids and they are over priced straight away.

You have said yourself you sell cheaper because you can't afford to keep a record for too long, you reduce the prices within a week to get rid, plenty don't do that.

VG to me is f*cked and not worth having, not much pleasure in listening to a record in vg condition and I guess I would only buy in that condition to fill a gap in a collection whilst waiting for a better copy.

[Pete S]

Everyone maybe an exaggeration but you only have to browse lists these days and ebay , look at some of the starting bids and they are over priced straight away.

You have said yourself you sell cheaper because you can't afford to keep a record for too long, you reduce the prices within a week to get rid, plenty don't do that.

VG to me is f*cked and not worth having, not much pleasure in listening to a record in vg condition and I guess I would only buy in that condition to fill a gap in a collection whilst waiting for a better copy.

I regularly see people on here selling less than EX condition records for mint prices but because of the way it's structured with the no negative comments thing, it's hard to get a discussion going or give an opinion (thats not a criticism of the forum, it's just the way things are) but it frightens me seeing some of these prices and when people actually write SOLD next to them, I often just can't believe it. And even worse is the price that some people ask for British records, my screens been splattered with tea so often looking at UK lists on here I can barely see it!

[Chalky]

I regularly see people on here selling less than EX condition records for mint prices but because of the way it's structured with the no negative comments thing, it's hard to get a discussion going or give an opinion (thats not a criticism of the forum, it's just the way things are) but it frightens me seeing some of these prices and when people actually write SOLD next to them, I often just can't believe it. And even worse is the price that some people ask for British records, my screens been splattered with tea so often looking at UK lists on here I can barely see it!

Totally agree with you. You are fair from the first time you list, how it should be. Some out to get as much as they can without taking in to account the condition.

British I'm afraid I haven't the foggiest with regard to prices, they have never really interested me as a collector.

As I said there have definitely been better days for buyers.

[Guest Bearsy]

I regularly see people on here selling less than EX condition records for mint prices but because of the way it's structured with the no negative comments thing, it's hard to get a discussion going or give an opinion (thats not a criticism of the forum, it's just the way things are) but it frightens me seeing some of these prices and when people actually write SOLD next to them, I often just can't believe it. And even worse is the price that some people ask for British records, my screens been splattered with tea so often looking at UK lists on here I can barely see it!

why dont you put your records on a drop down type auction Pete starting with £50 over the top and by the end of the day to your realistic prices, you could attract a whole new bunch of buyers

[Pete S]

why dont you put your records on a drop down type auction Pete starting with £50 over the top and by the end of the day to your realistic prices, you could attract a whole new bunch of buyers

Good idea actually! Thought about doing that a few times. Got a Triumphs on Okeh to list next week, I could try it with that.

[Ted Massey]

I can remember days when it was better for the buyer. The 80's for instance many records you see today for daft silly prices were at reasonable and even cheap prices. I'm sure those buying in the 70's will tell you a similar story.

Even 10 or 15 years ago when the internet started taking off for record buying on ebay, in the days of dial up broadband when broadband was considered a luxury you could get all sorts for next to nothing. Now everyone is clued up. Every one wants mint prices for vg graded records, buying has definitely been better.

[Raremusicdirect]

As a buyer I purchase every guide I can afford across a wide spectrum of music, Soul, RnB, DooWop, Funk etc

I read every set sale website I can locate, follow every website auction.

I spend a couple of hours a day trawling the internet watching 45s jog to their selling price....

Thankfully I receive many personal lists and read these (often playing the cd they come with). In fact although viewed as a touch old fashioned by some this method is the area I most often buy from. I can play the cds in the car (as clips granted) and if the track listing has the price its easy to make a decision........

Maybe I need to get out more lol but one things for sure, the more Information the more likely I'll make an informed decision.

I tend to buy to keep (tax biils excepted), so will wait for records i rate, after all a good 45 is a good 45.....

[Raremusicdirect]

John,

Although its another column in the guide, maybe besides listing the Mint (perfect price) the guide could show the VG price ?

Whilst it can be calculated from the Mint guide, it would provide a spread of expectation, between two prices, rather than the expectation for many, being the Mint price. Once some see the headline, its hard for them to be realistic.......

It could be easily be derived as a sum calculation, so no need for much work to produce.

Practical ?

[Mike Lofthouse]

A point every has overlooked the values also include 20% uk purchase tax = VAT .

Don't know a lot about taxation other than PAYE, but how does it work on an auction item? How is it broke down ? Is there any VAT involved ? are you taxed on your commission?

Years ago Alan Fearnley - Middlesbrough's favourite record shop - use to sell second albums for 97p - he'd pay 60p make 30p profit and 7p tax - I think that was the breakdown

Just interested....

Mike

[NEV]

John,

Although its another column in the guide, maybe besides listing the Mint (perfect price) the guide could show the VG price ?

Whilst it can be calculated from the Mint guide, it would provide a spread of expectation, between two prices, rather than the expectation for many, being the Mint price. Once some see the headline, its hard for them to be realistic.......

It could be easily be derived as a sum calculation, so no need for much work to produce.

Practical ?

Are you Steven hawkins

[Modernsoulsucks]

Don't know a lot about taxation other than PAYE, but how does it work on an auction item? How is it broke down ? Is there any VAT involved ? are you taxed on your commission?

I think Im right in this but it's 11 years since I stopped being a full-time record dealer. There is a threshhold where you pay VAT on all your takings [NOT profit]if you take in over the limit. In my day it was around £30,000 and increased to over £40,000 in a space of 10 years.

So say I made £40K per annum the VAT bill would be £7K p.a. at 17.5% as it was then. Think I paid quarterly. The idea is that to balance that bill I'd also claim back and deduct the VAT I'd paid. As my stock came from the USA in the main I was on a bit of a loser because there is no VAT charged on the records I'd bought. The only VAT involved for me to claim back would be on say shipping or if I had a list printed.

So if I bought say £20K worth of records from US in a year none of that total would be VAT that I could balance against the VAT I owed when selling them on. If it had been possible to buy that stock from an English supplier he would have charged me 17.5% VAT which I could have got back.

It is an extra tax really which you can't avoid. However I certainly didn't pass it on to my customers.

[Raremusicdirect]

Are you Steven hawkins

I wasn't born in 1942 if that helps but has he a brother

[Monkey]

I can remember days when it was better for the buyer. The 80's for instance many records you see today for daft silly prices were at reasonable and even cheap prices. I'm sure those buying in the 70's will tell you a similar story.

Even 10 or 15 years ago when the internet started taking off for record buying on ebay, in the days of dial up broadband when broadband was considered a luxury you could get all sorts for next to nothing. Now everyone is clued up. Every one wants mint prices for vg graded records, buying has definitely been better.

Agree with this totally, the 70s and 80s were a different game. Records were buyable or should I say affordable, however they were harder to find. Soul Bowl's list every week was a contest to see who could get on the phone first (landlines only then). There was a flourishing, brisk trade in record bars, Wigan and later Stafford, lots of records sold, bought and traded on the night. It would seem now (internet based dealers, ebay etc. etc), by comparison you can pretty quickly buy any title you want provided you are happy to pay top wack.

...George

[Mike Lofthouse]

Don't know a lot about taxation other than PAYE, but how does it work on an auction item? How is it broke down ? Is there any VAT involved ? are you taxed on your commission?

I think Im right in this but it's 11 years since I stopped being a full-time record dealer. There is a threshhold where you pay VAT on all your takings [NOT profit]if you take in over the limit. In my day it was around £30,000 and increased to over £40,000 in a space of 10 years.

So say I made £40K per annum the VAT bill would be £7K p.a. at 17.5% as it was then. Think I paid quarterly. The idea is that to balance that bill I'd also claim back and deduct the VAT I'd paid. As my stock came from the USA in the main I was on a bit of a loser because there is no VAT charged on the records I'd bought. The only VAT involved for me to claim back would be on say shipping or if I had a list printed.

So if I bought say £20K worth of records from US in a year none of that total would be VAT that I could balance against the VAT I owed when selling them on. If it had been possible to buy that stock from an English supplier he would have charged me 17.5% VAT which I could have got back.

It is an extra tax really which you can't avoid. However I certainly didn't pass it on to my customers.

Thanks for that Rod - a tidy sum for a dealer to find really. What about in the case of auction - when it is someone else's record and not your stock, is it just the commission that is taxed?

[Modernsoulsucks]

Thanks for that Rod - a tidy sum for a dealer to find really. What about in the case of auction - when it is someone else's record and not your stock, is it just the commission that is taxed?

Well you'd have to ask John about that really cos his accountant may suggest ways of dealing with that.

However whatever John sells on that site it is part of his turnover so he will pay VAT on the whole amount I believe. So for instance if it is on commission and say he gets £200 for selling a £2000 45 he pays VAT on the whole £2000 and not just the £200. That's how VAT works as far as I remember.

When he comes to do his annual accounts once his expenses,tax allowance etc are taken into account ordinary tax will be deducted from the profit which in this case is £200. Simply put I sold for £2000, I paid 1800, I made 200.

Edited August 6, 2011 by modernsoulsucks

[dthedrug]

HI ALL.....QUESTION ABOUT PAYING TAX ON ANY ITEM THAT IS SECOND HAND?? AS THE TAX HAS ALREADY BEEN PAID? I CAN UNDERSTAND CERTAIN PARTS OF THE TAX LAW LIKE JOHN'S POSITION, BUT HE IS A COMPANY CALLED MANSHIP, BUT MOST OF THE DEALERS WHO SELL SECOND HAND RECORDS DON'T PAY TAX?? JUST LIKE DJs DON'T PAY THE FEES FOR PLAYING RECORDS, TO THE PREFORMING ARTIST? AM I RIGHT? OF COURSE I AM, CASH IN THE HAND A SECOND HAND RECORD, THE BOOKS NEVER ADD UP, I TELLS YOU! DAVE

[Guest]

i think it depends on how well your doing, start making enough money on ebay and the taxman will be watching.

my mrs put a couple of old toys she had in the loft on ebay, one was a pippa doll, turned out to be some mega rare pail haired princess doll, and she got a couple of grand for it, but it was paypal that put a stop on her account and froze her money until she could answer a few of their questions, there is probably some beady eye watching every single conversation on the internet, god,i'm getting paranoid now!

[paultp]

I've been on ebay since 1998; at first you could get records for nothing because hardly anybody knew about it - I had many lovely purchases of "6 soul records" for $1 and the US sellers used to apologise about the postage cost . Unfortunately I knew next to nothing so couldn't take real advantage of the situation.

Later on you when ebay had opened up ebay UK and would push UK based search traffic to the UK site, you could buy from the US site and sell on the UK site at a profit. Luvverly jubbly!

As more people in the UK became aware of ebay, US sellers started seeing the prices that Northern Soul records were fetching and there was a period where every record was listed as Northern Soul and started at $100.

The price guides came out because UK dealers could not compete with ebay, once the US dealers knew what the price of a record was stated to be in the UK all the listings started at these prices. So the price guides ensured that UK dealers were not being undercut. Making a profit on records bought on US ebay by listing them on UK ebay became a thing of the past as record prices shot up on US ebay - due to US sellers knowing more and then UK buyers realising that buying on US ebay was a better thing to do.

At first the prices were in dollars (if a record was guided at £100 the ebay listing was $100) proving americans are generally stupid. They weren't stupid for long and realised that people will pay anything for certain records and so worked out the dollar equivalent and added 25% for the hell of it. Even Moerer then started listing his rarer records on ebay at ludicrous (IMHO) Buy It Now prices.

I've always been amazed at what prices JM auctions achieve and also what Pat Brady's achieve too - I always think; who are these people who will pay stupid prices for relatively common records? I understand the prices that are achieved for really rare records as people have to buy them when they occasionally surface, but there are loads of threads on here about common records going for 3 times their worth on auction.

The other thing that always confuses me is how people are happy to sell a record that they think is cheap and common but as soon as two people bid it up to a stupid price nobody will then part with said record. I always try and sell mine now as soon as this has happened because the market for a stupid price is limited to one or two under bidders and once they have got one the price comes back down to a sane level where you can buy another copy.

Record buying and selling has no logic and no sense. Buy them when you see them at a price you want and if you know you can get another sell them when someone wants to pay a stupid price.

Rave on!

[Godzilla]

At first the prices were in dollars (if a record was guided at £100 the ebay listing was $100) proving americans are generally stupid.

Are you saying that anyone who sells cheaper than guide price is stupid? You certainly seem to be saying that all Americans are stupid.

Outrageous.

[paultp]

Are you saying that anyone who sells cheaper than guide price is stupid? You certainly seem to be saying that all Americans are stupid.

Outrageous.

No, I don't think I did say that and a quick check of my post will show that. I said that when americans started selling records based on the price guides they used dollars instead of the dollar equivalent of pounds.

I didn't say that all americans are stupid but a lot of them are.

If that is outrageous to you, then you need to meet some americans. In my experience some are really clever, some are really funny, some are even funny and clever, but an awful lot of them are stupid. Britain is much the same.

[Chris Anderton]

My take on record selling is like this...If i sell a record for more than i paid for it I`m making money...it doesn`t matter what someone else got for it last week or on ebay or on Johns auction...I try and price fairly and use popsike, collectors frenzy and John`s book as a guide. It is good for business to have the odd mistake on the list...keeps life interesting!

Most US dealers know the score, especially at 4.00pm at a major record show when they still have all of these "Rare northens" for sale!

Chris

[Guest Preems]

I've been on ebay since 1998; at first you could get records for nothing because hardly anybody knew about it - I had many lovely purchases of "6 soul records" for $1 and the US sellers used to apologise about the postage cost . Unfortunately I knew next to nothing so couldn't take real advantage of the situation.

Later on you when ebay had opened up ebay UK and would push UK based search traffic to the UK site, you could buy from the US site and sell on the UK site at a profit. Luvverly jubbly!

As more people in the UK became aware of ebay, US sellers started seeing the prices that Northern Soul records were fetching and there was a period where every record was listed as Northern Soul and started at $100.

The price guides came out because UK dealers could not compete with ebay, once the US dealers knew what the price of a record was stated to be in the UK all the listings started at these prices. So the price guides ensured that UK dealers were not being undercut. Making a profit on records bought on US ebay by listing them on UK ebay became a thing of the past as record prices shot up on US ebay - due to US sellers knowing more and then UK buyers realising that buying on US ebay was a better thing to do.

At first the prices were in dollars (if a record was guided at £100 the ebay listing was $100) proving americans are generally stupid. They weren't stupid for long and realised that people will pay anything for certain records and so worked out the dollar equivalent and added 25% for the hell of it. Even Moerer then started listing his rarer records on ebay at ludicrous (IMHO) Buy It Now prices.

I've always been amazed at what prices JM auctions achieve and also what Pat Brady's achieve too - I always think; who are these people who will pay stupid prices for relatively common records? I understand the prices that are achieved for really rare records as people have to buy them when they occasionally surface, but there are loads of threads on here about common records going for 3 times their worth on auction.

The other thing that always confuses me is how people are happy to sell a record that they think is cheap and common but as soon as two people bid it up to a stupid price nobody will then part with said record. I always try and sell mine now as soon as this has happened because the market for a stupid price is limited to one or two under bidders and once they have got one the price comes back down to a sane level where you can buy another copy.

Record buying and selling has no logic and no sense. Buy them when you see them at a price you want and if you know you can get another sell them when someone wants to pay a stupid price.

Rave on!

"Proving americans are generally stupid", thanks for that one, you sound like a real nice guy!

[Guest Preems]

Thank you also for the novel recommendation to " Buy them when you see them at a price you want" I now know how to use ebay! If anyone has a copy of Chuck Wood I have a spare $300

[KevH]

No, I don't think I did say that and a quick check of my post will show that. I said that when americans started selling records based on the price guides they used dollars instead of the dollar equivalent of pounds.

I didn't say that all americans are stupid but a lot of them are.

If that is outrageous to you, then you need to meet some americans. In my experience some are really clever, some are really funny, some are even funny and clever, but an awful lot of them are stupid. Britain is much the same.

Britain,Britain,Britain. ...nice to see you're back on form Paul.

Edited August 8, 2011 by KevH

[Ernie Andrews]

All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Americans done for us?

Romans Invented Baths Pete - _ Shockingthat you didnt know this.!

[Pete S]

Romans Invented Baths Pete - _ Shockingthat you didnt know this.!

The original quote replaces the word Americans with Romans, Steve, surely you knew that?

[Ernie Andrews]

I tried on here a year or so ago - try to suggest a pricing system where a poll would be done and the average would give an indication especially around classic oldies. The record collector guide has a price reduction matrix which I use when Im selling records and when Im offering to buy one. as put by many on this thread people try to sell VG records for the price of mint and use the term "Demand" as their excuse!. I think if John put the price condition matrix into his book that would help. If JOhn is reading this what do you think JOHN!

[Ernie Andrews]

The original quote replaces the word Americans with Romans, Steve, surely you knew that?

Nice one Pete - I only asked about the Volcanoes finishing price and hey presto it grows arms and legs.

Bugger wish I had seen that Shane martin Pete - Im trying to put a cheap collection together for my daughter whose mad into the music.Im buying mainly boots of classic oldies for her at the moment but that would have been a nice start for her.

[Guest Andy Kempster]

although an iPhone ap is also being crafted which will hopefully have label scan of every listing...we have a scan for - which will cover 1000s and 1000s.

hi john

any chance of an android app too...???

[Dave Abbott]

i can't understand the logic of why i should be bothered if someone pulls my price guide whilst I'm on a trip, it happens all the time.We actually GIVE price guides to "vinyl hounds" whom we have built a relationship with in the USA and pay a percentage of the listing - only rule is we don't buy marked vinyl unless it is something rare.

The Price Guide for us at least, has bred trust . We have never been "secretive" about perceived values of records, that breeds mistrust and narrows your options of where you can buy from' We just try and use good open retail sense. Which amounts to the more people who trust you the more records you are able to buy - and we have various crate-diggers in various states who use our guide and sell to us. We are more comfortable with - open, transparent dealings to try and build a lifetime contacts and supplies, and of course you couldn't buy the level of advertising the book creates.

I think what WE all have to remember that for you, John, it is business not just a part time way to gain some cash to buy more records like many sellers (not all of course!!). And you have THE best website buying facility bar none, pay your taxes and have the knowledge and experience - all of which comes at a price.

The amount of time i have seen 'cheapie' wants on here that you have listed on your site is just unbelieveable - yeah you could buy them cheaper from the States, but by the time you add on postage and waiting time, it's no better...

to surmise; people getting upset someone is making money. that's it from me really

[Dobber]

dead right!

[Kev Connellan]

an iPhone ap is also being crafted which will hopefully have label scan of every listing...we have a scan for - which will cover 1000s and 1000s.

John

Really interested in your iPhone app John. Is it nearing release or is it still in its early stages?

[boba]

Really interested in your iPhone app John. Is it nearing release or is it still in its early stages?

I would totally buy an android version