Showstoppers-Houseparty/what Can A Man Do

[Dave Pinch]

i know this is one of the commonist northern 45`s. but what about the very first release on party time. is that realistically worth any thing.

dave

[Guest]

Hi Dave,

I've seen it listed at £100

Martin

[Dave Pinch]

yes i think its in JM`s guide at that. and imagine if it wer`nt on any other label. gotta be rarer than the four perfections and of course what a two sider. sadly its common on 3 other labels...............so whats a real selling price

dave

[Anoraks Corner]

Fabulous full-on NS dance track with an all-time classic Youth Club killah on the flip!

Everyone must've owned a copy, or at least had a dance to the flipside over the years...timeless.

Here it is on two other labels, on rather nice demo copies of wihch I found the Showtime WD in a shop last Sunday!

[Guest]

Picked my Party Time copy up about 2 years ago from Pete Smith .......Cheers Pete.

Not seen it anywhere else for that price though.

Martin

[45cellar]

Party time, Quite Rare I would have thought with Very Limited copies ever pressed.

However price doesn't always reflect that. Got my copy from Soul Bowl.

Never seen a DEMO on Party time. Doesn't exist as far as I'm aware.

Seem to remember something about local Interest in this following the Initial release on Party time

the Reason for the Showtime release very soon after.

[Guest Perception]

It was bootlegged on blue label Showtime as well!

[45cellar]

A few Re-issues too, certainly sold well over the years.

[Guest]

And there is loads of different variations of the uk one, green,yellow,red and white swirls.

[Andy Rix]

Interesting to note my Frankford/Wayne acetate has the Showtime label details on

Andy

[Guest]

i know this is one of the commonist northern 45`s. but what about the very first release on party time. is that realistically worth any thing.

dave

Dave,

off the top of my head I think if you,

Check the dead wax I think you'll find Party Time is NOT the first label, it carries the Showtime matrix, think the value is in the fact it's infinitely rarer and looks so much better, especially next to the Four Perfections in your record box but it not the first label Showtime is. The dead wax matrix will confirm that - I feel sure

[Guest]

It was bootlegged on blue label Showtime as well!

It wasn't was it?,got a shiny labelled one and a paper labelled one both with F/Wayne stamp's.

[Guest]

It was bootlegged on blue label Showtime as well!

Nope, it was a re-press, it used the same master plate as the first Showtime as did the Party time release I do hope I'm not gonna look a prat here 'cause this is all off the top of my head - but I did all the comparisons some years back so check those dead wax markings folks..l think you'll find it revealing.

[45cellar]

You're right John the Deadwax, the Frankford / Wayne acetate & the Beacon Label also have same.

Why or when was it issued on Party time, for some strange reason I was always told it was first but in small number.

[Guest]

I was of the same opinion for years, but was doing some dead wax delving checking out the two Showtime variations only to discover the Party Time press used the Showtime master plate ...ps for Andy R. Mike Terry played on this session ....dig out the baritone sax work in the background

Two great sides back to back I wanna give this some welly at the next Stute oldies set I do....classic Junior-life northern soul.

[45cellar]

Thanks John,

I had noticed the deadwax markings before on the Party time press,

wrongly assuming that the Initial batch pressed up locally by the brothers held the Party time Logo prior to the Showtime launch.

Really makes me wonder when or why the Party time Label was pressed.

[Dave Pinch]

i`m off to london to work today til the weekend. i`ll have a look at the matrix when i get home. i know its frank ford wayne stamped but ive never noticed the other markings. still not sure of a realistic price on it

dave

[Guest sadsam]

Hi

Just pulled mine, frank/ford wayne stamped and it also shows STR-101A / STR-101B hence Showtime being the first . But with this said still very rare on parytime, becaue it had been a hit this could be the reason no promos. I think it's a fair value, it looks far better. I was lucky to pick this up last year at a car boot, mint copy for 50p SAM

[Simsy]

A few Re-issues too, certainly sold well over the years.

[Guest]

My first Nsoul record i ever got, about 72-3 just like this,from a junk shop in Liverpool

[Our Kid]

Don't know if this confuses the issue or confirms anything - had this on a Bell Sound test pressing with STR detailing on the label but the test pressing label was covering up a PartyTime one underneath!

Paul

[Bigsoulman]

My first Nsoul record i ever got, about 72-3 just like this,from a junk shop in Liverpool

You make me feel old Ken I bought this as a new release in 67

Lenny

[Guest]

You make me feel old Ken I bought this as a new release in 67

Lenny

You are !!

I was about 10 maybe 11, did not know anything N'soul at the time 2 year's later i'm doing Wigan

[Benji]

Here are a few euro picture covers. It came out twice in Germany but don't have pictures of either release at hand.

[Steve L]

Karl Heard played houseparty at Burnley earlier this year in amongst a more up front set - sounded great.

Would love to hear what can a man do played out somewhere

[45cellar]

[Guest MrC]

Didn't it come out on that UK "Cream" label as well?

There's also a great punk version of "Houseparty" by the Heavy Metal Kids

Edited October 29, 2011 by MrC

[pikeys dog]

Try Cliff Richards version off his Live At The Talk Of The Town LP.

[Guest selectasoul]

A few Re-issues too, certainly sold well over the years.

d

[45cellar]

Not sure how many covers of it, but here's another.

[Patto]

I have it on the UK Beacon Red Swirl one of the best looking labels ever.Is this the hardest of the Beacon releases ?

[Guest MrC]

Further cover versions by:

Phil Fearon and Galaxy

J. Geils Band

Drunk Stuntmen

Seems to be as many cover versions as there were different label releases!

[Guest]

And there is a French by "the music makers" version not sung in French i posted in refo-soul.

Edited October 29, 2011 by ken

[Psychedelic Soul]

Does anyone know if the party time release was bootlegged ? Can't find any information on it 

I bought it for £1 from wigan casino and always assumed it was 

           Thanks

 

[Rick Cooper]

On 02/12/2017 at 19:32, psychedelic soul said:

Does anyone know if the party time release was bootlegged ? Can't find any information on it 

I bought it for £1 from wigan casino and always assumed it was 

           Thanks

 

Around 1975/6 Soul Bowl were selling the Party Time version of Houseparty for under £2.00.  They were original issues that they had got hold of from somewhere. So if you got your copy around this time it will be original. The record was freely available on Showtime from Jamie/Guyden via Universal Distribution so no point bootlegging a common record.

Rick

[Tlscapital]

My try at this... If the Showtime release came out first, as the matrix on the Party Time release uses the same stamper, the production credits could be the issue at stake here.

For the publishing on the Party Time only the 'Clairlyn Pub. Co. (BMI)' is credited and the Production goes to Del Shahar (also spelled SHARH)...

Where on the Showtime the 'Dandelion Music (BMI)' publisher's credit is added BUT the Production goes to a sole Bruce Charles...

So there was likely an infringement on one or both parties as to who the production belonged to... Let's say the Showtime release came out first;

The Showtime release was an instant local and national success (it had even more success a year later and went internationally) and likely someone who had access to the Showtime stamper for a "corrected/revenge" release used them for the second and final release on Party Time records...

Only without the distribution power and coverage for promotion as the Jamie/Guyden Group had only few copies of the Party Time made it in the shops (why it's rarer)... Before the label went doomed...

Likely some law-suit deal or arrangement emerge later and while the song was still doing strong a year later the Guyden release followed-up to satisfy a demand as an "oldie" (USA dainty trends obsolescence tag) and not fearing, Del Sharah managed on his side a licensed deal with MGM for the release on Heritage.

Now this would explain the Showtime very first release with the followed-up Guyden giving copyrights to the Beacon one in the UK then the rest of Europe...

And the "revenge" Show Party contemporary second release with the followed-up Heritage (MGM group) release a year later sharing the production credits this time between Del Sharah and Jerry Ross (!!!) giving birth to the following Show Stoppers tracks on MGM who likely remained true to Del Sharah in the story...

Edited December 3, 2017 by tlscapital

[Tlscapital]

On 2 décembre 2017 at 20:32, psychedelic soul said:

Does anyone know if the party time release was bootlegged ? Can't find any information on it 

I bought it for £1 from wigan casino and always assumed it was 

           Thanks

 

No boot of the Party Time and while I'm at it, I am sure that the Guyden 'oldie series' release is actually dating from 1968. As it's even the release that sent the HIT to the UK for the Beacon release then to the rest of Europe from March 1968 onward. The Guyden release bares the 1231 catalogue number and it's the last release for the label in that serial numbering system. The previous release Guyden 1230 dates from November 1967 ! The 7T's Jamie/Guyden reissues and releases never looked like their 6T's counterparts anyway. This one does to me.

[Roburt]

The announcement of Beacon Records first release is shown below ... 

The bit in a post above about this being an instant US success couldn't be further from the truth ... it didn't do much at all on it's initial US release. The Party Time 45 made no impact at all Stateside. The Show Time 45 managed to make 2 Philly R&B radio stn charts in April 67 ( low on WDAS's Top 30 in early April, whereas it was at No.7 on WHAT in mid April) and the 45 also achieved No. 118 on Billboard's Pop Top 100 in late May 67. However, it never made it onto the US R&B Top 40 at all. The Heritage version (a re-recording ?) only came about in May 68, after the record had become a UK pop chart hit -- it had entered the UK Top 40 at the very end of March 68.

In fact, the record (in it's Show Time / Party Time days) never even got a mention in Billboard mag apart from that bubbling under the Nat Pop 'Hot 100' chart note ... I'd think it was being played on some US pop radio stns at the time (after Jamie / Guyden had sent out promo copies nationally I guess) plus on the Philly R&B stns but it struggled to make much impact R&B wise outside of Philly. Then after it had been a massive UK pop hit, the Heritage version made it higher on the US Hot 100 (peaking @ 87 in June 68).

 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Roburt

[Rick Cooper]

As MrC rightly points out way back in 2011 it also came out in the UK on Cream Records which I was involved with in the 70s. If I remember rightly, which is not guaranteed, the owner of Global and Cream records ,Ed Balbier, got the contact details of Showtime Records from Jamie/Guyden/Universal so we could arrange a deal for a UK release. The owner was Irvine Weinroth who set up Showtime for his son. When we did the deal for House Party no one had seen the Party Time release so I didn't know then that Irvine also owned the rights to the Four Perfections.When Soul Bowl got the Party Time House Party copies I asked Irving if we could lease The Four Perfections. So Showtime and Party Time were owned by the same person so I can't see any legal problems over these two labels but maybe when Jerry Ross got involved Irvine handed over the US rights to House Party for a number of years. However Jamie/Guyden were selling House Party on Showtime in the 1970s with the full knowledge of Irvine.

As to why House Party came out later on Party Time I know as much as others, i.e nothing, but maybe they used up some left over blank Party Time labels for a very small run of House Party to sell at gigs. As the Showstoppers came over to the UK these copies never got used or distributed.

Irvine gave me a couple of copies of a test pressing for the Showstoppers Gotta Get Closer to Your Love which had STR 102 as the record number. So he had planned a follow up on Showtime not Party Time. It never came out in the US so maybe the Jerry Ross deal scuppered this. I think Glenn at Outtasight spoke to Jerry Ross about this but I'm not sure what he said. 

Rick

[Sunnysoul]

19 minutes ago, Rick Cooper said:

As MrC rightly points out way back in 2011 it also came out in the UK on Cream Records which I was involved with in the 70s. If I remember rightly, which is not guaranteed, the owner of Global and Cream records ,Ed Balbier, got the contact details of Showtime Records from Jamie/Guyden/Universal so we could arrange a deal for a UK release. The owner was Irvine Weinroth who set up Showtime for his son. When we did the deal for House Party no one had seen the Party Time release so I didn't know then that Irvine also owned the rights to the Four Perfections.When Soul Bowl got the Party Time House Party copies I asked Irving if we could lease The Four Perfections. So Showtime and Party Time were owned by the same person so I can't see any legal problems over these two labels but maybe when Jerry Ross got involved Irvine handed over the US rights to House Party for a number of years. However Jamie/Guyden were selling House Party on Showtime in the 1970s with the full knowledge of Irvine.

As to why House Party came out later on Party Time I know as much as others, i.e nothing, but maybe they used up some left over blank Party Time labels for a very small run of House Party to sell at gigs. As the Showstoppers came over to the UK these copies never got used or distributed.

Irvine gave me a couple of copies of a test pressing for the Showstoppers Gotta Get Closer to Your Love which had STR 102 as the record number. So he had planned a follow up on Showtime not Party Time. It never came out in the US so maybe the Jerry Ross deal scuppered this. I think Glenn at Outtasight spoke to Jerry Ross about this but I'm not sure what he said. 

Rick

What happened to those two test pressings of the Four Perfections Gotta Get Closer ?

[Benji]

House party came out in Germany too. At least two times.

First on Ariola which I guess ties in with the UK Beacon release (68-ish). Then a second time, on Metronome, in 1971. Don't know if that 2nd release ties in with any UK re-release around the same time?

Discogs lists a third german release, on Polydor, late 60s. However the cat no does not match any other late 60s Polydor releases I have. So I guess the listing is wrong and it might be a french or dutch issue.

[Addio]

 

[Tlscapital]

8 hours ago, Rick Cooper said:

...The owner was Irvine Weinroth who set up Showtime for his son... So Showtime and Party Time were owned by the same person so I can't see any legal problems over these two labels but maybe when Jerry Ross got involved Irvine handed over the US rights to House Party for a number of years. However Jamie/Guyden were selling House Party on Showtime in the 1970s with the full knowledge of Irvine.

Thanks for those inputs Rick. Still it doesn't say as to why the production credentials and Publishings accordingly don't match or even more, tend to point out an infringement issue between two persons at least. Rights are not necessarily labeled owned.

Hence the real split between those two USA contemporary 1968 re-releases... Rather show or explain some sort of legal or not deal settlement/agreement... The band the Show Stoppers stayed on the MGM "side" after that... I guess there was more at stake than just spare label$...

[Roburt]

Group did better in UK for live & TV shows too than they did back at home.

I know they were sat around back in Philly when they could have been playing live shows here in 68 (& a fake version of the group was fetched over here from NY -- the Internationals ... who went on to become the Persuaders). 

The real Show Stoppers toured the UK twice in 68 ... the 1st time doing Top of the Pops, the NME Poll Winners Show & clubs such as the California Ballroom in Dunstable (April / May) ... they then returned in November and did BBC TV's Crackerjack on a Friday before dashing up to Manc to do the Saturday niter at the Wheel. 

Don't think this UK outfit got too many UK soul club bookings at the time though ... 

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Roburt

[Rick Cooper]

19 hours ago, sunnysoul said:

What happened to those two test pressings of the Four Perfections Gotta Get Closer ?

Gotta Get Closer To Your Love was a Showstoppers track not Four Perfections . I gave one copy to Terry Thomas in Kidderminster and I think sold the other (for peanuts) to Neil Rushton. Neil issued the track on Inferno, he may have some info on the Party Time label which could be useful. Terry sold his copy via John Manship a few years ago. The test pressing was single sided so I wonder what the B side could have been, instrumental ?

Rick

[Rick Cooper]

10 hours ago, tlscapital said:

Thanks for those inputs Rick. Still it doesn't say as to why the production credentials and Publishings accordingly don't match or even more, tend to point out an infringement issue between two persons at least. Rights are not necessarily labeled owned.

Hence the real split between those two USA contemporary 1968 re-releases... Rather show or explain some sort of legal or not deal settlement/agreement... The band the Show Stoppers stayed on the MGM "side" after that... I guess there was more at stake than just spare label$...

Yes, the label credits are strange and I don't have info from the dealings with Irving that could help . You sometimes hear stories about publishing rights given over to get favours from people. Different production credits could be an argument about who actually did the most in the studio. I guess we'll never know for sure as it was so long ago.

As an aside ,when I ran the Cream label the publishing info on some of the issues was just whatever was on the US issue and as long as the MCPS got paid no one bothered. I also got an A&R credit on the UK Inferno issue of Showstoppers Gotta Get Closer but did b***r all.

Rick

[Tlscapital]

16 hours ago, Roburt said:

... I know they were sat around back in Philly when they could have been playing live shows here in 68 (& a fake version of the group was fetched over here from NY -- the Internationals ... who went on to become the Persuaders)...

 

Wow, didn't know that ! The successive formations of Walter & the Admeration's, the High Society, the Green Berets, the Internationals then the Persuaders, who actually originated from Chicago, in a Show Stoppers wanna bees act... 'ain't nothing but a record swindle'...

[Psychedelic Soul]

Thanks for the replies it's nice to know I got one legit copy in a pile of boots I bought as a teenager back in the 70's

[selectadisc]

[Britishbarry]

On 06/07/2011 at 13:23, BIGSOULMAN said:

 

 

You make me feel old Ken I bought this as a new release in 67

 

 

Lenny

 

Me too