Proto Jays & Rivieras On Riley's

[Premium Stuff]

You Counterfeit Girl on Riley's was released as by The Rivieras and The Proto Jays ...

But which came first?

The Rivieras was on #369 while The Proto Jays release number was #8790

James Riley's numbering systems were all over the place

Anyone know the history please?

Great record

Cheers

Richard

Edited June 4, 2011 by Premium Stuff

[Premium Stuff]

Oh - if it helps I just spotted that The Rivieras address was 1871 Linwood while The Proto Jays was 12318 Dexter

Cheers

 

Richard

 

 

Rivieras - You Counterfeit Girl - Soul-tbc

Edited February 12, 2016 by Premium Stuff

[boba]

this doesn't help, but apparently this group was from akron, OH

[George G]

this doesn't help, but apparently this group was from akron, OH

You're about 110 miles off...Toledo. Connected to Toledo's Lee and the Leopards.

[boba]

You're about 110 miles off...Toledo. Connected to Toledo's Lee and the Leopards.

I think you may be wrong actually, as my source is someone who talked to Prentice Anderson of Lee and the Leopards and the Proto Jays, and my source knew the Leopards were from Toledo. Do you want me to follow up with my source to confirm? Thanks.

[Geoff B]

Don't know myself.I am just glad i have them both

atb,Geoff.

[Premium Stuff]

Actually I think I might have worked out the order of the two releases as Linwood seems to have come before Dexter - so this means the Rivieras came first because it used the Linwood address

The Riley's and Diamond Jim numbering systems intertwine and The Outcry on Riley's #8785 seems to be the last release with the Linwood address. Then the address changes to Dexter.

One exception I can find is the Terrifics on Diamond Jim #8784 (just one number before the Outcry) which already has the Dexter address - but that could just be because the two discs came out around the time of the relocation

Cheers

Richard

Edited June 5, 2011 by Premium Stuff

[George G]

I think you may be wrong actually, as my source is someone who talked to Prentice Anderson of Lee and the Leopards and the Proto Jays, and my source knew the Leopards were from Toledo. Do you want me to follow up with my source to confirm? Thanks.

Yes, please

thanks

George

[Guest enchantedrythm]

photo jays was played first asa northern sound-72/73-couldnt believe it at the time when the rivieras turned up a couple of years later, the question is prob down to amatter of months as to release

[Premium Stuff]

I think you may be wrong actually, as my source is someone who talked to Prentice Anderson of Lee and the Leopards and the Proto Jays, and my source knew the Leopards were from Toledo. Do you want me to follow up with my source to confirm? Thanks.

Hi Bob

You got any more info for us please?

Thank you

Richard

[boba]

Hi Bob

You got any more info for us please?

Thank you

Richard

I asked my source. He said that he hadn't talked to Prentice Anderson directly but had been sent a (long) recording of a private interview with Prentice Anderson so it was like talking to the primary source. I asked if he could confirm the different cities and he said that he had to find the CDs that the interview was on and listen to them (apparently it was very long) so I probably won't get a confirmation. Although he could have made a mistake, he did listen to Prentice Anderson so it's probably correct, but again I didn't get a confirmation.

[Knowledge]

My father is one of the Proto Jays. He is still living and can give you plenty of info. Who should I have him get in contact with? 

[George G]

Hey there, I would love to talk with your father. Please send me a PM or email buckeyebeat@hotmail.com 

 

[Robbk]

I wonder why I never saw this thread before.  I can vouch for the fact that The Rivieras issue came first, and the Linwood address was first, as well.  I saw The Rivieras' record several years before The Proto-Jays'.  I look forward to reading what Knowledge's father tells us.

[The Yank]

On 04/06/2011 at 13:11, Premium Stuff said:

Oh - if it helps I just spotted that The Rivieras address was 1871 Linwood while The Proto Jays was 12318 Dexter

Cheers

 

Richard

 

 

Rivieras - You Counterfeit Girl - Soul-tbc

  By 1968, the labels also had a branch office in Los Angeles (from Billboard's August 31st issue) 

[Robbk]

Interesting that the first address on Linwood was in a residential neighbourhood, and so, must have been Riley's house.  The Dexter Ave. address was on a major Boulevard, and business street.  All the buildings right near that address are now gone, but, as I recall, there were small 1 and 2 story commercial buildings there (small shops and small offices).  So, Riley probably had a small office on Dexter for a few years, after his first few Tempos' releases sold reasonably well locally.  Their office in L.A. was in the nicest part of The Ghetto in Southwest L.A. (Baldwin Hills), in a strictly residential area.  So, I assume that was the home of a friend and business partner of Riley's.  I wonder what that guy did for Riley (just a West Coast sales rep.?).  I don't recall EVER seeing any records on Riley's labels sold in ANY of the big or small neighbourhood L.A. Ghetto and Hollywood record stores.  I don't think they were distributed nationally (many of them not even regionally (Upper Midwest).  Most were just Detroit-Southeastern Michigan/Toledo Metro Area.  A couple made it to Chicago. 

[Wheelsville1]

These Rivieras were the backing group for Billy Lee (aka Mitch Ryder). 

[The Yank]

13 hours ago, Robbk said:

  I don't think they were distributed nationally (many of them not even regionally (Upper Midwest).  Most were just Detroit-Southeastern Michigan/Toledo Metro Area.  A couple made it to Chicago. 

   Most of the Riley's releases got airplay in Detroit and Cleveland. The Tempos "Don't Leave Me" did pick up some airplay in Miami  (#37).  Major Lance's "You Don't Want Me" also did well on the survey.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by The Yank

[Nick Soule]

Was Mr. Bo "Lost Love Affair" on Big D 852 the only Jim Riley record that was picked up for national distribution? 

[The Yank]

"I Ain't Gonna Suffer"was also distributed by Bell - 

 

[Robbk]

7 hours ago, The Yank said:

   Most of the Riley's releases got airplay in Detroit and Cleveland. The Tempos "Don't Leave Me" did pick up some airplay in Miami  (#37).  Major Lance's "You Don't Want Me" also did well on the survey.

 

 

5 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

Was Mr. Bo "Lost Love Affair" on Big D 852 the only Jim Riley record that was picked up for national distribution? 

Just because it was distributed by Bell doesn't necessarily mean they distributed it all over USA.  As far as I know, some of their distributed records never made it to The Mountain West or West Coast.  Furthermore, I don't remember Mr. Bo's Big D record getting played on WVON in Chicago, or seeing it in the shops.  I always asked about new Detroit records that came in. 

Yank, do you remember seeing Mr. Bo in the shops, on Chicago radio lists or being played on the radio?  I don't think I ever saw it there.  I picked up my copy on a run to Detroit.  I DO, however, remember The Tempos, "Don't Leave Me" in a shop in Chicago (That's where I got my first copy), and I think I remember seeing an E.J. and The Echoes on Diamond Jim, in a shop.  I think Riley had them driven over to Chicago to sell to shops, like Smokey and The Holland Brothers used to do.  I don't remember E.J. getting played on WVON, but I seem to remember The Tempos' getting a few ad-hoc testing plays, but not regular rotation.  I imagine Riley's crew also drove records to northwest Ohio (Akron, Dayton, as well as Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and probably Cincinnati and Indianapolis,too, and also Milwaukee (while on the Chicago Run).  I've seen Riley's/Diamond Jim/Big D records in shops' record bargain bins in most of those cities.  Lots of small R&B/Soul labels were able to self-distribute regionally (or, at least within a 200 mile radius).

I NEVER found Riley's product in LA or San Francisco Bay Area exactly while it was out, only as used records, at least a few years later, after people from The Detroit Metro Area had a chance to relocate there.

[The Yank]

I've never seen any 45's on the Big D label in Chicago. I did see a couple of the Tempos "Don't Leave Me" in Chicago stores though and a Diamond Jim 45 but I don't remember which one.

     I can't say where or how much effort Amy/ Mala/ Bell put into promoting the Big D label but, they did think enough of the label and Mr. Bo to include them in this Cashbox ad from July, 1967.

[Nick Soule]

Manuel B. Holcolm's "I Stayed Away Too Long" on Diamond Jim 900 was distributed Cotillion. Forgot about that one. 

[Soul-slider]

On 08/05/2021 at 08:57, Wheelsville1 said:

These Rivieras were the backing group for Billy Lee (aka Mitch Ryder). 

Is this the Riley's band then? (Basically 'The Detroit Wheels')

Edited May 9, 2021 by Soul-slider

[Robbk]

5 hours ago, Soul-slider said:

Is this the Riley's band then? (Basically 'The Detroit Wheels')

 

[Robbk]

From Soul-Slider:

"Is this the Riley's band then? (Basically 'The Detroit Wheels')?"

 

I always thought The Riley's group was an African-American group.  Both "You Counterfeit Girl" and "Can I Share Your Love" sound like that.  But with a good falsetto, it's tougher to tell than with a tenor lead using a normal voice.  Unfortunately, I don't remember seeing any billboards listing The Rivieras that also used a photo of them.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Robbk

[Robbk]

On the You-Tube page where "You Counterfeit Girl" is posted, a poster named Shawn Booth says this was his father's group, and they were a Black trio.  It's a LOT easier for me to believe that these guys were a different (African-American) group, rather than Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels taking their old name and moonlighting while under contract to Dynovoice Records, in the late 1960s.

[Nick Soule]

[Robbk]

16 minutes ago, Nick Soule said:

So, the one on the left, or the one in the centre is Booth.  The one on the right doesn't look proud enough to be the lead.

[Knowledge]

On 09/05/2021 at 22:00, Robbk said:

On the You-Tube page where "You Counterfeit Girl" is posted, a poster named Shawn Booth says this was his father's group, and they were a Black trio.  It's a LOT easier for me to believe that these guys were a different (African-American) group, rather than Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels taking their old name and moonlighting while under contract to Dynovoice Records, in the late 1960s.

 

Yes. Shawn's dad name is David. David Booth, and my dad's name is Leonard Stewart. I believe the third member name is Leonard Gillespie (R.I.P.)

[Robbk]

28 minutes ago, Knowledge said:

 

Yes. Shawn's dad name is David. David Booth, and my dad's name is Leonard Stewart. I believe the third member name is Leonard Gillespie (R.I.P.)

Thanks for informing us.  I don't recognise any of those names from other records or playing gigs in Detroit.  I assume they weren't members of any other groups, or try solo careers on their own.  Although the name Leonard Stewart sounds a little familiar.  Was your dad in any other group?

 

Who is in which position in the photo?

Edited May 11, 2021 by Robbk

[George G]

I talked with Leonard about the group. I'm interested in the stories on any Ohio artists so I was very glad to get the first person account on a group that was not well documented. Leonard had a lot of cool stories to share.

All the members were from Toledo, they started as high school aged students, they were 5 as the Proto Jays (including the 3 mentioned above), and that, according to Leonard, was the group that recorded the 45. The Rivieras came after, but not that long after. They performed a lot in Detroit but also played Toledo and northern Ohio, including the Ken Hawkins World Of Soul TV show from Cleveland (there is no surviving footage from this show). 

In terms of dates, the Proto Jays 45 seems to date from late 1967 or early 1968, a couple months before Diamond Jim's store on Dexter was bombed (May 1968). Diamond Jim was killed in May 1971, I assume this is well known to Detroit music historians. 

My goal was to post the story on my website, with pics, once I've talked more, so I hope to make that happen.  I wasn't really planning to post anything until I had all the info but at least I could share something, for sure to confirm the group was from Toledo.

Edited May 11, 2021 by George G

[Tlscapital]

On 11/05/2021 at 09:17, George G said:

I talked with Leonard about the group. I'm interested in the stories on any Ohio artists so I was very glad to get the first person account on a group that was not well documented. Leonard had a lot of cool stories to share.

All the members were from Toledo, they started as high school aged students, they were 5 as the Proto Jays (including the 3 mentioned above), and that, according to Leonard, was the group that recorded the 45. The Rivieras came after, but not that long after. They performed a lot in Detroit but also played Toledo and northern Ohio, including the Ken Hawkins World Of Soul TV show from Cleveland (there is no surviving footage from this show). 

In terms of dates, the Proto Jays 45 seems to date from late 1967 or early 1968, a couple months before Diamond Jim's store on Dexter was bombed (May 1968). Diamond Jim was killed in May 1971, I assume this is well known to Detroit music historians. 

My goal was to post the story on my website, with pics, once I've talked more, so I hope to make that happen.  I wasn't really planning to post anything until I had all the info but at least I could share something, for sure to confirm the group was from Toledo.

With all the respect due to Leonard, his memories (approximations) and his words the Rivieras 45 unarguably came out in 1966 wile the Proto Jays release only in 1968.

The Proto Jays as a group and name could have record 'counterfeit girl' backed with 'can I share your love' and so actually even pre-existed the release as the Rivieras.

All that could very well be but for what ever reason James Riley opted for a re-baptism of the group release. Only later the 45 got re-issued under the original group name...

Hence with a later catalog number with the new office/shop address on the label. That as this newspaper snippet sadly reveals was targeted by anti 'civil rights' activists.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Tlscapital