Cover Ups & New Discoveries... A Downward Slope ?

[Guest Adam G]

A ridiculous analogy IMO Adam. How can you compare a practice that has gone on for 40 or 50 years on various dance scenes with reading a book? DJ's put a lot of time, money and effort into finding rare records to keep this scene alive and fresh, why should they not enjoy a bit of exclusivity from their efforts. It's not like the artist is going to gain by keeping it uncovered, they will make no money out of it.

I wouldnt call it ridiculous Chalky just my opinion. And I did the comparison because thats how I see it thats all . I maybe in the minority but i feel the practice is totally ego driven . If your at Essence we can have a bevvy whilst I try and convince you otherwise

[Dave Abbott]

I wouldnt call it ridiculous Chalky just my opinion. And I did the comparison because thats how I see it thats all . I maybe in the minority but i feel the practice is totally ego driven .

I think any one who gets up and Dj's is ego driven, Adam...but i disagree on this -

I and others like me spend hours trying to find new sounds - quite often I take a punt after listening to a 30 second sound clip hoping that the rest of the record is as good - sometimes they are, likewise, sometimes they turn out to be crap - obviously I am talking $20ish type records, so individually not a huge monetary risk, but that all adds up. I will also do my searching after finding it on places like Soul Source (which is a great tool for such things) and Google etc.. to see if it is known - sometimes if it is and being played I wont even buy it and move on. If it's not known i may well Cover Up the record. Thats gives more time to find out about it, try to buy another depending on the condition of the one i get AND of course get some exclusivity out DJing with it - which i think after the time spent and the money risked is my right to do so...

there are far too many lazy DJs out there who dont do all the background work, don't risk money but are happy to buy what they hear others play - well F**k 'em.

[Chalky]

I wouldnt call it ridiculous Chalky just my opinion. And I did the comparison because thats how I see it thats all . I maybe in the minority but i feel the practice is totally ego driven . If your at Essence we can have a bevvy whilst I try and convince you otherwise

I understand it's your opinion Adam, if we all had same opinion it would be boring and have nowt to talk about I wouldn't quite go as far as ego driven, I've currently one or two and it is certainly not because of any ego.

I would love to have a bevvy with you at Yarmouth unfortunately can't make it, haven't been able to for last 3 years, next year hopefully, have a good one

[Hammersoul]

In my opinion Paul Mooney explained it better than I can when he said "Its like someone saying have got this brilliant book I want you to read its excellant but I'm going to cover the cover so you dont know the title and the author ?" so you cant find and buy it as well ! To me pointless exercise .

I`m with you on this Adam . Not like the Dj actually sang/recorded the record so while hide it .Personally if Dj would`t tell me title of song i`d either switch radio off or walk out room while there djing.At the end of the day if there first to play it it would get noted by those in the know.Plus if i`m put onto a tune i always give the person props when i find/play it out.Maybe i`m in the minority there.

[Jez Jones]

Wasn't the story on this that Guy when he was with Margeret, whilst in Corfu saw two suspicious figures darting about in a clandestine manner and crawling in the sand comando style heading towards the sea. They investigated further and it was Gaz Kellet and another Cyberman type (might have been Dave Malloy?). The plan was to attack Albania In tribute to such tomfoolery and high jinks Guy created the C/U name.

Like Butch's Stoke shop name C/U it is entirely possible that this is a false memory and a complete figment of my somewhat warped imagination.

I'm definitely in favour of C/Us by the way. They keep me amused.

...was it Povey & The Oatcakes

.......getting me coat as we speak

[Guest audiavant]

Your memory serves you well-Lancaster Johnson was a Gentlemens Outfitters in Regent Road,Hanley.Butch was waiting for the chance to use it.

[Russ Vickers]

I`m with you on this Adam ' /> .  Not like the Dj actually sang/recorded the record so while hide it ' /> .Personally if Dj would`t tell me title of song i`d either switch radio off or walk out room while there djing.At the end of the day if there first to play it it would get noted by those in the know.Plus if i`m put onto a tune i always give the person props when i find/play it out.Maybe i`m in the minority there.' />

Hey Wayne, how ya doin' buddy, hope all is well with you mate.

If you read Dave Abbotts last post he hits the nail right on the head - if all DJ's were the gentleman that you are then just maybe there wouldnt be such a need to cover records up these days, no matter how much fun it is - but the lazy, bone idol, jump on the band wagon type DJ's unfortunately vastly out weigh the DJ's who put in massive amounts of time, effort & money in finding new tunes to help make their sets imaginative & unique.

As an example, for years in the South Coast area, there has been a person who will stand behind the decks at every event they attend for the entire evening, taking notes about every record you play that is not of the norm, next time you hear them out if its a reasonably priced item, said person will be playing it out, in the past, sometimes before you even when your DJing at the same venue on the same night, they wouldnt even acknowledge you when playing it or say thank you.

Thats one reason, as well as the ones previously discussed in the thread, why the likes of myself, Dave Abbott, Tim Smithers (?) & others down these parts started covering records that we might not have done previously, just to stop this practice..........its enfuriating when you have put in so much effort. I would also add that we tend generally to share the cover up information between ourselves......................sometimes.

At the end of the day, mostly its a bit of fun & if someone was to come up to me knowing the true identity of a cover up, I'd be fine with it, thats part of the game isnt it.

All the best mate

Russ

[Simon M]

What about the Scenario , when 8 -10 people have the same coverup .

Edited April 8, 2011 by Simon M

[Naughty Boy]

Laughing out loud here as you've covered me up Russ

Best,

Martin.

Martin was thinking along the same lines

[Russ Vickers]

What about the Scenario ,  when  8 -10 people have the same coverup .  ' />

I cant see the point in keeping a disc covered if 8 - 10 people are playing it, its then not exclusive anyway ?.

Best Russ

[Simon M]

I cant see the point in keeping a disc covered if 8 - 10 people are playing it, its then not exclusive anyway ?.

Best Russ

It does seem to happen Russ . What was it.. the Belia Woods c/p ? and probably others too ?

Edited April 8, 2011 by Simon M

[Hammersoul]

Hey Wayne, how ya doin' buddy, hope all is well with you mate.

If you read Dave Abbotts last post he hits the nail right on the head - if all DJ's were the gentleman that you are then just maybe there wouldnt be such a need to cover records up these days, no matter how much fun it is - but the lazy, bone idol, jump on the band wagon type DJ's unfortunately vastly out weigh the DJ's who put in massive amounts of time, effort & money in finding new tunes to help make their sets imaginative & unique.

As an example, for years in the South Coast area, there has been a person who will stand behind the decks at every event they attend for the entire evening, taking notes about every record you play that is not of the norm, next time you hear them out if its a reasonably priced item, said person will be playing it out, in the past, sometimes before you even when your DJing at the same venue on the same night, they wouldnt even acknowledge you when playing it or say thank you.

Thats one reason, as well as the ones previously discussed in the thread, why the likes of myself, Dave Abbott, Tim Smithers (?) & others down these parts started covering records that we might not have done previously, just to stop this practice..........its enfuriating when you have put in so much effort. I would also add that we tend generally to share the cover up information between ourselves......................sometimes.

At the end of the day, mostly its a bit of fun & if someone was to come up to me knowing the true identity of a cover up, I'd be fine with it, thats part of the game isnt it.

All the best mate

Russ

Hi Russ.

I`m well thx,hope you are .

I can understand where you are coming from on people taking the credit for effort/time/money put in to locate/source a great unknown track.To be fair when ever i`ve asked a dj what there playing they have let me know be it cover up or not.For me it`s about the music not the ego of a person/dj but maybe i`m old fashioned

Are you going Essence?

[Simon M]

When i was djíng years ago,if i found anything interesting i would ring around and ask mates if they knew,or had heard it before covering it up

funny thing was Pete Lawson always said "i know that! who is it? " knew he was lying with the Hyperions though

Steve

I used to phone Soul Bowl . John seemed to know almost everything , even the color of the lable

Edited April 8, 2011 by Simon M

[Guest]

I and others like me spend hours trying to find new sounds - quite often I take a punt after listening to a 30 second sound clip hoping that the rest of the record is as good - sometimes they are, likewise, sometimes they turn out to be crap - obviously I am talking $20ish type records, so individually not a huge monetary risk, but that all adds up. I will also do my searching after finding it on places like Soul Source (which is a great tool for such things) and Google etc.. to see if it is known - sometimes if it is and being played I wont even buy it and move on. If it's not known i may well Cover Up the record. Thats gives more time to find out about it, try to buy another depending on the condition of the one i get AND of course get some exclusivity out DJing with it - which i think after the time spent and the money risked is my right to do so...

there are far too many lazy DJs out there who dont do all the background work, don't risk money but are happy to buy what they hear others play - well F**k 'em.

Dave,

Think that sums up why DJs still cover things up perfectly . Though as I'm somebody who's sole income is earnt from record selling it's slightly different for me......when I find a good, lesser known record that's not overly expensive instead of covering it I tend to buy up the obviously available copies on ebay/gemm etc and then give it a few spins out before offering them to sale to various people who I think might be interested. Who I offer it to depends on the type of sound it is.

I've very quickly counted the number of records in my playbox that I play covered up and it's a huge total of three ...

'Tony & Tyrone' - 'I Can't Take It' which was originally a Johnny Fingers spin, he told me the real details as he wanted to get spare copies and thought I might be able to find them and then sell them to him, which I did and even though he's not active on the scene at the moment I keep it covered up as he never uncovered it.

'Rufus Stone & The Foresters' - 'I've Got To Hold On' a discovery of a certain Dave Abbot, who played it to me over the phone and by sheer luck I worked out who it was . Will stay covered as long as Dave keeps it covered.

'Big Maybelle' - Set Me Free' the only one of the three that I think of as 'mine' and despite putting it on a compilation cd which I did over a hundred copies of nobody has yet told me that they know the real details.

[Russ Vickers]

Hi Russ.

I`m well thx,hope you are .

I can understand where you are coming from on people taking the credit for effort/time/money put in to locate/source a great unknown track.To be fair when ever i`ve asked a dj what there playing they have let me know be it cover up or not.For me it`s about the music not the ego of a person/dj but maybe i`m old fashioned

Are you going Essence?

Wish I was going to Essence mate, missed the last 2 years, I'm still working out in the desert mate, thats why I have missed the last couple of Filthy's too.........still, might not be able to get to the venues as much these days, but the records are still coming in .

Have a great time buddy & say hey to everyone for me......

Best Russ

[Guest]

I've never found a covered up record before it became uncovered in my 15 years of collecting.

has anybody else here found a covered up record without actually havign the head start of being told what it is by the person who has it covered up ?

off course the answer will be yes but I think in most cases the first few copies bought will be by people who know the name and have not found it out them selves.

Keep it up - coed - B J Thomas when Ion was playing it covered up....and a couple more.

[Russ Vickers]

It does seem to happen Russ . What was it.. the Belia Woods c/p ? and probably others too ?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Belita Woods c/up was an Andy Dyson discovery & was exclusive to him for some time. Butch, Ginger & Mick H (?) & one other that turned up recently not sure of other copies, but didnt think there was that many,,,,,,maybe 4 - 6 ?.

Best Russ

[Chalky]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Belita Woods c/up was an Andy Dyson discovery & was exclusive to him for some time. Butch, Ginger & Mick H (?) & one other that turned up recently not sure of other copies, but didnt think there was that many,,,,,,maybe 4 - 6 ?.

Best Russ

There was about 7 I think off top of my head, all bar one came via Andy. Andy then Butch, Sam, Mick, Kitch, (Steve G who's I think was the odd one of the bunch)....don't remember Ginger getting one?

It stayed covered up as it was still a recent discovery with plenty of mileage in it.

[Simon M]

Well once it goes past one or maybe two people its not really that exclusive Russ or is it ? . Im sure others had the B Woods coverup ? and maybe the Eric Lomax c/p went a similar way Theres a few with the Total Warmth coverup now .

An iteresting thread . Im glad I know most of the modern coverups , many came from ebay anyway :thumbsup:

ps. Only just seen Chalkys reply

Edited April 8, 2011 by Simon M

[Simon M]

What if 20 copies of a fresh tune turned up in the post ?

[Russ Vickers]

Well once it goes past one or maybe two people its not really that exclusive Russ or is it ? . Im sure others had the B Woods coverup ? and maybe the Eric Lomax c/p went a similar way Theres a few with the Total Warmth coverup now .

An iteresting thread . Im glad I know most of the modern coverups , many came from ebay anyway :thumbsup:

ps. Only just seen Chalkys reply

I just find the whole thing interesting, I personally enjoy c/ups, its all part & parcel & thus far I havnt heard a decent argument against them, its just personal opinion. The fact that a record is covered up doesnt make it an any better or worst record than one that isnt covered up.....if its good its good............if 20 copies of something turned up, I doubt very much it would remain covered up & would quite possibly be dropped as a play too, if up until that point it had remained a 1 or 2 copy exclusive..........but too be honest this is just my opinion & I dont think there are any hard & fast rules Simon.............for me personally, its a bit of fun & I enjoy the mystique.

Russ

[Chalky]

The Rita & Tiaras/Belita Woods all turned up in a relative short space of time and the DJ's paid good money for them so I can kinda see why they wanted it to remain covered up, get some play out of it before everyone knew what it was and then went looking although it still hasn't turned up.

John Parker I think had a copy as well.

[Simon M]

Its just interesting that some coverups these days , stay coverd up even though quite a few people know what they are , have em and play em .

I dont get it , maybe I am old skool after all lol

Simon

ps Who got that Rita and the T's from John Manships site ?

[Chalky]

ps Who got that Rita and the T's from John Manships site ?

dunno, who sold it?& how much did it go for?

[Dave Abbott]

There was about 7 I think off top of my head, all bar one came via Andy. Andy then Butch, Sam, Mick, Kitch, (Steve G who's I think was the odd one of the bunch)....don't remember Ginger getting one?

It stayed covered up as it was still a recent discovery with plenty of mileage in it.

i beleive Gingers came from Tim Brown - I think it was an acetate

and just to confuse things Ginger palyed it out as by "The Fabulous Shalimars"

[Chalky]

i beleive Gingers came from Tim Brown - I think it was an acetate

and just to confuse things Ginger palyed it out as by "The Fabulous Shalimars"

Andy covered his as the Shalimars.

[Dave Abbott]

Andy covered his as the Shalimars.

i just assumed... i always though it was Rita & Tiaras - who came along with that one?

[Chalky]

i just assumed... i always though it was Rita & Tiaras - who came along with that one?

Butch covered it as R&T.

[Simon M]

dunno, who sold it?& how much did it go for?

It was on as a set sale Chalky . Simon T showed me it . I wonder if he bought it ? . It was £2kish .

[Ted Massey]

Fred Krol has one

[KevH]

Fred Krol has one

Ted,have you still got that c/u - Dickie Squatts - "I'm running" on Imodium.?

[Ted Massey]

Your taliking S**** Kev get back on topic will ya

[Ian Dewhirst]

If I'm gonna be totally honest, I've never been a big fan of cover-ups. They'd intrigue me for a few weeks but ultimately become quite frustrating after a while. There's only so much time you can devote to trying to figure out what it is and the odds against scoring a bullseye are just too remote. The only time it really knocked me out was when a cover-up was uncovered and turned out to be a known act like, say, the Coasters with "Crazy Baby". Now THAT'S what I call a killer cover-up.

I covered-up a few first-time spins. James Lewis & The Case Of Tyme's "I'm Coming Home" lasted about 3 weeks before a few more copies came in and Lou Pride eventually got his just deserts. The only reason I covered it up in the first place was because the actual title was so ridiculous and it would have been plainly ludicrous to pick up the mike and say, "there we go with Lou Pride and the incredible "I'm Com'un' Home In The Morn'un'" with the correct Texas pronounciation. Bear in mind that this was the North Of England in 1974 and if I'd have even attempted to announce the actual title people would have thought I was nuts. A cover-up was simply the better option.

Didn't last long though. There was no way to properly disguise the title and hook really plus a few started filtering out through Soul Bowl (which is where my copy came from via a 3rd party). Great record but a bitch of a title........

I covered Al DeLory's "Right On" as the Delacosta Strings and I vaguely remember covering Rain's "Out Of My Mind" as "I'm Coming Home To You" by someone or other.

We should start a thread that highlights the best cover-up titles and names if it hasn't been done already. "Black Ship To Harlem" ("Breakaway" - Steve Karmen/Jimmy Radcliffe) was one of the all-time greats.

Also, creative well thought-through cover-ups are always good. The Capreez "How To Make A Sad Man Glad" seems obvious now, but it went through months and months as the Opals "Tell Him That You Care" and no one connected with the real title for ages.

Cover-ups and secret sounds have always been an integral part of the scene but they merely delay the inevitable. The best stories are the records themselves.

Ian D

[Simon M]

Do you like any of the current coverups Ian ?

[Ian Dewhirst]

Do you like any of the current coverups Ian ?

Do I look like the sort of guy who spends his life trying to track down cover-ups?

I'd only get frustrated by wanting to know what the ACTUAL record was. So I don't tend to take much notice anymore plus don't go to enough gigs to hear 'em unfortunately....

Ian D

[Simon M]

Ian you could always ask the DJ's for an mp3 if you really liked the coverup !

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian you could always ask the DJ's for an mp3 if you really liked the coverup !

Yeah right LOL.......

Ian D

[Guest marco]

Think Lancaster Johnson was a firm of solicitors or estate agents in Stoke (either that or Mark and Tim spotted the firm in the US?)

[Simon M]

Out of the Rare soul Loop and into the Mashup Loop , hey Ian ?

[Jerry Hipkiss]

I covered Al DeLory's "Right On" as the Delacosta Strings and I vaguely remember covering Rain's "Out Of My Mind" as "I'm Coming Home To You" by someone or other.

Joan Moody! How do I claim my prize?

[Ian Dewhirst]

Out of the Rare soul Loop and into the Mashup Loop , hey Ian ?

You have me confused with someone else Simon. I hate mash-ups generally apart from the Brownstone/Love Unlimited Orchestra which was brilliant.

If you're talking about re-edits that's a different kettle of fish......

Ian D

[Simon M]

You have me confused with someone else Simon. I hate mash-ups generally apart from the Brownstone/Love Unlimited Orchestra which was brilliant.

If you're talking about re-edits that's a different kettle of fish......

Ian D

Whatever.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Joan Moody! How do I claim my prize?

Very good! Some free Backbeats CD's for that Jerry! #

Ian D

[Alan Walls]

Wasn't the story on this that Guy when he was with Margeret, whilst in Corfu saw two suspicious figures darting about in a clandestine manner and crawling in the sand comando style heading towards the sea. They investigated further and it was Gaz Kellet and another Cyberman type (might have been Dave Malloy?). The plan was to attack Albania In tribute to such tomfoolery and high jinks Guy created the C/U name.

Like Butch's Stoke shop name C/U it is entirely possible that this is a false memory and a complete figment of my somewhat warped imagination.

I'm definitely in favour of C/Us by the way. They keep me amused.

That's my memory of The Albanians story, and got it straight from the horse's mouth - I stormed up on stage at Stafford the first time Guy played it!

Guy's c/u's are worthy of a thread in it's own right!

[Raremusicdirect]

Great topic

Always thought of cover ups as part and parcel of the scene and although I am only embarking on my journey I would if I felt I had the right 45, cover it up for fun and as Russ and Dave already stated, allow it to remain exclusive a tad longer than otherwise and prevent some djs just buying it without the "effort".

Its increasing hard to do, as an awful lot is known, but its still possible.

I suspect I'll be rumbled within seconds with my first lol, lets see, but some of the fun traditions are worth maintaining

I think for set balance; well knowns, rare and unplayed, different mix of temp AND a cover up all blend to make great sets. When djs do it I think they have made an effort, rather than just play the guaranteed (unless its that type of event and that's all the whats described, in which case fine too).

Long live the "odd" cover up

[Ernie Andrews]

Sorry Russ - Dont agree with that at all- Most of our classic oldies were never covered up and the artists got recognition by the fact the scene played their music not whether or not the record was covered up in the first place!

Ive lent a friend of mine what might be my rarest soul record- maybe I should tell him to cover it up because Ive asked on here afew times if anyone knew it and not one response. However if it is genuinely rare then why cover it up at all infact the opposite of what you have said could result in more exposure if the artist is more widely known to start with. My friend was in the states and met up with someone who knew about my record as he worked for the label production or something like that butsaid to my friend it will be difficult to find one.

Actually Ive had a thought that if you cover a record up and use a different name you might actually be in some legal doo da with say the name you have used eg: Al Green who is still a recording artist. I wonder what he thinks about his name being used on a piece of music that he did not record. Forget the criminal term for it!

Edited April 12, 2011 by Ernie Andrews

[Chalky]

Sorry Russ - Dont agree with that at all- Most of our classic oldies were never covered up and the artists got recognition by the fact the scene played their music not whether or not the record was covered up in the first place!

Ive lent a friend of mine what might be my rarest soul record- maybe I should tell him to cover it up because Ive asked on here afew times if anyone knew it and not one response. However if it is genuinely rare then why cover it up at all infact the opposite of what you have said could result in more exposure if the artist is more widely known to start with. My friend was in the states and met up with someone who knew about my record as he worked for the label production or something like that butsaid to my friend it will be difficult to find one.

Actually Ive had a thought that if you cover a record up and use a different name you might actually be in some legal doo da with say the name you have used eg: Al Green who is still a recording artist. I wonder what he thinks about his name being used on a piece of music that he did not record. Forget the criminal term for it!

Many a classic has been covered up, right back to the early days of the scene, that is widely acknowledged.

Many artists knew bugger all about the scene and there records till recent years so the artists got hardly any recognition except amongst those who went to NS venues. Loads still don't. Many got no recognition through sales etc back in the day.

There are many many collectors out there who don't use soul source, they might read but don't participate so just because you had no response to the rare record means nothing.

[Guest]

Before the internet, people had to go to allnighters to hear the latest monster sounds that were being played and covered up.

Now people can sit at home and find out just about everything to do with Northern Soul, without going anywhwere.

A lot of the mystique that was part of the Northern Soul scene has been lost because of the internet.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Guest

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

I think the thing that's done the most to put an end to this silly coverups thing is the arrival of pro collectors working for record labels. They can get into places that most of us will never have access to, and as long as they're honest labels like Kent I'm all in favour.

All coverups ever did was deny the artists that we're supposed to be supporting income and exposure.

[stomper45]

Eh, if its a cover up that usually means the record has been and will probably remain overlooked by everyone apart from the coveruperer , who will now create attention to the track missed for years by everyone else.

Cant see that much income being lost, more than likely the artist is brown bread anyway. Its usually a bit of fun/intrigue to get folk guessing