Soul Scene Villains

[Spacehopper]

I seem to recall Ed Pillar carrying a cane with him around that time haha

ummm i wonder ?... ...dont suppose whoever it was would remember it as much as me though...my ear loked like a red cabbage ,was a f+++++ putting my crash helmet on for days !

strange how history repeats its self...people doin football,soul alnighters and drugs in the 70s..then people doin football,rave allnighters and drugs in the late 80s..which i believe put a stop to football violence for a few years...shit drugs around nowadays and it seems to be coming back

dean

[manus]

Hi Manus,

That was the good old days !! alltogether now "you are my sunshine ,my only sunshine you make me happy when skies are grey ,don't ever take my leeds away.

Atb

Andy.

Great days Andy - that particular Newcastle v Leeds game will always stay in my mind as it was only my second away game ( not counting Sunderland because it's only down the road) - also there was a particular incident involving one of our lads who was big mates with the Shipley crowd - not sure if the Leeds fans on here will remember but it involved the burning of a rosette.

Hope you and Paula are keeping well mate

Manus

Edited March 30, 2011 by manus

[shelly]

Meant Pete, if you see him, ask him the location of a chicken shed outside Crewe and what is/was buried underneath- not a body I may add!

[shelly]

Hi Dave,

Lot of true stuff said.

A bit of background for those who weren't there.

People forget that before the scene was blown open late '73 by the main stream music press it was an underground scene, largely transmitted by word of mouth, populated by top boys from an area going from

Stevenage across to Winchester upto Preston/Blackpool , across to Leeds/York and down again, I suppose the term Northern Soul came because it was above Watford in general........

Most of the "mod" towns in this region had a dozen or so top boys, who congregated at the major allniters of the time-Wheel, Mojo, Dungeon, Beachcomber, NightOwl, UpThe Junction, Torch, Saints and Sinners, Attic, Bletsoe, Metro, Blue Orchid, Lantern, Central and Cats(not a niter, but had every other attribute). I've probably misse a few, but pre '73 these where the top clubs.But, the fact you wher efrom different towns it was separate from footy, you saw loads of guys on a Saturday afternoon on the opposite side of the fence, but at the niter, then ,that was an aside and not an issue.

You didn't become a top boy just by wanting to be one, it was a mixture of Style, Muscle, Money, Looks, Intelligence and Balls, so most had this in varying degrees and the local groups of top boys would reflect this mix within the group, so you didn't get there by being nicey nicey and kept your position by ruling the wannabees!

You didn't get many divs at that time, only a few from which ever town was doing the niter , they didn't travel.

So with that in place, you did have a fair share of real villains-evil bastards, but not that many,what you did have was loads of "chancers" i.e. if you thought you had a chance of getting away with it you did it, this by the way didn't interfere with the fact that you where a soul fan.

Why? Look at the economics, if you stayed at school for A levels, which many of us did, then it meant that you were going to niters whilst still at school and had basically no money unless from a well off family, not too many of them around; otherwise you worked, average weekly wage at that time c£20 week. Do the maths, £2 for gear(18-20 pills) gear inflation only took off during '73, entrance money for nighter coke and chewing gum , transport, then you had the rest of the week to survive/go out and pay board, so lets say we weren't the richest of people!

All this peace and love that people spout about was a load of bollocks, yes you met people from all over the country because of a/ interest in the sounds and b/ in scoring gear, what was the major greeting inside a club - "what have you had?" or "got any gear"; the fact that everybody spoke or was apologetic if you bumped into them was down to the gear, which chemically made you gregarious, it was not the fact that you had a "Right On The Torch" badge on your shirt,so let's please get real.

So there was a necessity to get some cash, and as I said, if you could get away with it, you did it.

There was some serious stuff, I first saw a gun at the Wheel, later at the Torch, guns then weren't like today it was almost unheard of and put the shit up you, luckily, didn't see them used, but lets say there where loads of scams at the time.After the lid was opened,Wigan benefitted by being big enough to house everyone including the divs, who with the publicity increased in numbers dramatically,then it was obvious that the scams would increase exponentially as the opportinites did.

It's very clear that there are an awful lot of people who really do not understand the true excitement of going to an all niter when it was undiscovered.

Dodgy gear was mentione earlier, but prior to late '73, powder was not common, so cutting that with boat loads of crap wasn't an option,

but 4 questions, answers on Friday

1/ Why did you sometimes foam at the mouth after taking Green &Browns and Red&Browns?

2/Why where Roche 5 Valium popular?

3/What where Haliboragnge?

4/ What was sold as a Bennie?

Shelly

[Petedillon]

Very well put my friend!

[Petedillon]

Ask Dave Evison about the time I took him to a Leeds v Stoke game at Elland Road! mid-70's..

[KevH]

Ask Dave Evison about the time I took him to a Leeds v Stoke game at Elland Road! mid-70's..

What was it with the Leeds fans and throwing money? Did it in the old East stand at Forest in the 70's.Made a couple of quid.

I'm sure they were chanting "Back to school on Monday" to us.

[Petedillon]

Dont know mate, never could see point..

[Guest proudlove]

Shelley...........................nail and head mate,nail and head.

[manus]

Dont know mate, never could see point..

Very sharp

[Petedillon]

or to coin a phrase...sorry I'll get me coat...

[Sweeney]

What was it with the Leeds fans and throwing money?

Yorkshiremen throwing money away? Surely not!

[KevH]

Yorkshiremen throwing money away? Surely not!

Most of it was on a string..

[Gelderd Ender]

Just love that pic ,little billy wound him up all through that game ,think dave mackay met his match ha ha !

ATB

ANDY.

[Guest]

Yorkshiremen throwing money away? Surely not!

We never do , and if on the very rare occasion we did , it would be on a piece of string to ensure it came back

Malc

[KevH]

We never do , and if on the very rare occasion we did , it would be on a piece of string to ensure it came back

Malc

See post 64 Malc..

[Guest]

See post 64 Malc..

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Malc

[shelly]

In case anyone is interested, answers to the 4 questions posted previously, however,

Disclaimer

The information below does not mean in any way that a/ I did it, b/ took part in it and c/was a knowing party to it,

so please don't pile in with self righteous comments.

1/Durophet M( Green &Browns 15mg and Red &Browns 30mg) were spansules, slow release, that is the cap was full of very small balls white with a small dark speckle, this was almost identical in appearance to soap powder.

So you emptied the cap for yourself and filled it full of Persil, 8 a quid mate.

2/Roche 5 Valium, in those days I reckon most women over the age of 30 where prescribed this and it was readily available, your girlfriends' parents bathroom cabinet was usually a good starting point.

And as every one who's bed time reading was MIMS knows, Roche did not make gear, but the 5mg Valium tabs where a dead ringer for non SK&F Dex ,once you scratched off the Roche 5 from the non scored side of the tab,(pencil sharpener blades where good for this) then voila 10 a quid mate.

3/ 'Course they're Filon mate, 8 a quid mate

4/ Asprin, they where identical to the white Benzedrine/Amphet Sulphate tabs, only 10 per time because of the danger of stomach bleeding, didn't want to kill anyone!

10 a quid mate

So, gear paid for, entrance and sundries to niter paid for, bought a pressing of "Alexander Patton" on Soul Sounds and still got five bob in my pocket!

Jobs a good un

Shelly

Edited April 1, 2011 by shelly

[Petedillon]

You scoundrel...haha Good to tell we moved in similar circles, pal!

[spike1]

"lucky" to know older lads when I first went sammys nighter in 76 I was introduced to and therefore not given any hassle from some of the heavy types from Sheffield and derby

The midnight train we caught from Chesterfield to go sammys was full of soulies from leicester notts Mansfield derby never any football related trouble on that train

The only soccer trouble I can remember was when derby played man u in the fa semi at Sheffield

Lots of derby lads had planned to go sammys and then go the nighter

Trouble was so did some man u lads

No trouble with the soulies from Manc lots of us went to Wigan and had many friends from Manchester

Trouble was loads of Manc pissheads turned up caused bother

Ended up two if em picking on a couple of the aforementioned heavy types got stabbed and left sammys feet first on sretchers!!

Only football bother I can recall at allnighters

Seen plenty of other related trouble though!!

[dthedrug]

1. HI SOULSTERS, I HAVE PINNED THIS UP BEFORE, BUT IT FITS IN NEETLEY WITH THIS THREAD, AND AS MOST PEOPLE RATTLED AS THEY DANCED, I WAS LUCKY, I USED TO GET STUFF FROM THE SK&F FACTORY IN WELGAR,
2. 80 5mg DEXADRINE £ METHADRINE 2/6d A JACK 10 £1 FRENCH BLUES 80 £1 CAPS WERE A TANNER EACH, HOWEVER THERE ALWAYS WAS THE CHEMIST IF YOU WERE IN A HURRY?? DAVE KIL

[Paul R]

In case anyone is interested, answers to the 4 questions posted previously, however,

Disclaimer

The information below does not mean in any way that a/ I did it, b/ took part in it and c/was a knowing party to it,

so please don't pile in with self righteous comments.

1/Durophet M( Green &Browns 15mg and Red &Browns 30mg) were spansules, slow release, that is the cap was full of very small balls white with a small dark speckle, this was almost identical in appearance to soap powder.

So you emptied the cap for yourself and filled it full of Persil, 8 a quid mate.

2/Roche 5 Valium, in those days I reckon most women over the age of 30 where prescribed this and it was readily available, your girlfriends' parents bathroom cabinet was usually a good starting point.

And as every one who's bed time reading was MIMS knows, Roche did not make gear, but the 5mg Valium tabs where a dead ringer for non SK&F Dex ,once you scratched off the Roche 5 from the non scored side of the tab,(pencil sharpener blades where good for this) then voila 10 a quid mate.

3/ 'Course they're Filon mate, 8 a quid mate

4/ Asprin, they where identical to the white Benzedrine/Amphet Sulphate tabs, only 10 per time because of the danger of stomach bleeding, didn't want to kill anyone!

10 a quid mate

So, gear paid for, entrance and sundries to niter paid for, bought a pressing of "Alexander Patton" on Soul Sounds and still got five bob in my pocket!

Jobs a good un

Shelly

Zanthene tablets(like a non trade name pro plus) 30p for 60 at the chemist. Look like dex, taste like dex, pass the lick the hand and rub one on test like dex, and had the benefit of a stimulant content. 5 a quid in 1975. sold like hot cakes or dex. not proud but had regular customers.

Paul

[Petedillon]

I can remeber a few of us having to block the dorr at on of the Central all-nighters as a right bunch of lads I knew from the Leeds games had heard there were.. 'Mancs in that club you go to' ...it took a lot of my diplomacy and a few mates to convince them that these people had no interest in football so it wasnt worth them paying to come in....The people downstairs never knew how close they came to a full on battle.

[Stubbsy]

Just love that pic ,little billy wound him up all through that game ,think dave mackay met his match ha ha !

ATB

ANDY.

Don't think he did - Bremner shit himself when McKay grabbed him by the shirt

[macca]

Great thread. I think how you viewed the scallies, heavies, thugs etc depended a lot on your age and who you were hanging around with. My earliest recollections are from late 74, aged 14, when, judging by the comments by the older chaps on here, the underground scene had all but disappeared. I remember the heavies as being much older, people in their late twenties perhaps, and not necessarily Soul fans. People would say there's Barry so and so, a right head case, steer well clear. By the early 80s, the all-nighters I attended seemed to be populated by dodgy geezers who were my age, more or less, a lot less scary and definitely small fry compared to the earlier lot. They all wore those green bomber jackets, khaki trousers and played cards all night, trying to look mean. They even accepted cheques and 'pawned' watches in lieu of payment at the next do if you were strapped for cash on the night. Was that a part of their 'gangster' persona, or simply a way of facilitating things for their regular and most loyal customers?

[shelly]

Sorry, but many of us went to niters at a young age, but then, you kept your mouth shut and hoped you weren't noticed, at 14 you weren't anybody.

By 73 it was a load of bollocks, the underground scene had disappeared and the "others" came in.

We were talking about an underground scene, not one populated by the local thug etc. and not about football.

So could we please keep this thread in limits and not become a pissing contest for footy thugs,who 10 years after the main event and with a number of exceptions didn't have a clue.

Shelly

[macca]

Sorry, but many of us went to niters at a young age, but then, you kept your mouth shut and hoped you weren't noticed, at 14 you weren't anybody.

By 73 it was a load of bollocks, the underground scene had disappeared and the "others" came in.

We were talking about an underground scene, not one populated by the local thug etc. and not about football.

So could we please keep this thread in limits and not become a pissing contest for footy thugs,who 10 years after the main event and with a number of exceptions didn't have a clue.

Shelly

Couldn't agree more Shelly. The football thing was way beyond my comprehension. Never understood the attraction.

[Guest]

You mean ? after the Torch and before Wigan those weekends between the two were really interesting most service stations between Wolverhampton and the north full up with the wide awake club

and what about benzaks? 25pence for forty over the counter hair stood right up and later shitty feeling stopped selling them the night (cats) Paul Roberts kicked the shit out of Tony Midwinter(Cheltenham) nothing northern friendly about that night!!

As i was just a pup of fifteen at the Torch ,must say it was an eyeopener friendly ? in a strange sort of way,but definately scary in a big way !!

First night at the Torch(for me) saw Danny White (Cheltenham headcase) batter some bloke in the toilets about gear ,then just walked out straight onto the dance floor into a backdrop...............class

Question, how come so many nutcases were such good dancers???

Steve

The next time I see / talk to Matchie , I will ask him if he was , or considered being a nutter

Malc

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

my club WEST HAM UNITED FC & Millwall were the top clubs for gang warfare

In your dreams, maybe

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

in 1967 Manchester United brought the boot boy culture to West Ham on the last day of the season

certainly did, and anhilated them

wern't the only time either

[shelly]

Steve

Yes you're right, between the Torch and Wigan it was er "hectic"

As for good dancers being nutcases, have you spoke to Frank New aka Booper

Shelly

[dthedrug]

In your dreams, maybe

Hi All ...I must reply to your innuendo that I am a dreamer (only when I have a peddle do I dream), I have a few questions for you and your like.

1.W hat is a COCKNEY RED? AS this terminology was not in use in the 60s and especially in 1967, I maybe wrong, but the nearest thing to what you call Cockney Red was when a hard core gang from MILE End used to pretend the were MU fans looking for bovver in North Bank,/? I am sure any WHU fan from the time will remember this,

2. What part of London are you from what area did you grow up in, and I take it your mates were all Cockney Reds, otherwise you must have been lonely as child especially with all your bruises that you got from the other Cockney Kids who supported there local team???

3. For the record and I will defend this statement always the first Skinhead Gangs as we know them to be as a Youth Sub Culture, sprung up in the East End of London from May 68, most areas of east London from Whitechapel Stepney Bethnal green to the wansted Flats Hackney Marshes to Ilford Giddea Park Harrold Hill Dagenham & Barking saw this happening and by September the majority of Kids in the North Bank Had #1 Haircuts, please dont tell me so did the kids in Bristol Kes! thats a typical Northerner from the same period, of course there were Mods up the North, and Football Hooligans, But no Skinhead gangs, FACT, I mention Millwall as it's a part of the east end, and the Den was only across the Water, It is my Personal memory of Similar types from Bermondsy Newcross London Bridge area at the time, plus they were bound to copy anything the WEST HAM did, as the could recognize Style,

4. I cant imagine a Cockney going down to Upton Park Or the DEN and making a serious statement about supporting Manchester United?? I'm baffled

5. I will reiterate again The Bovver Boy Boot Boy cult grew into the SKINHEAD sub culture at West Ham United, nowhere else absolutely and Finally. have you got it, I am not interested if someone uncle had a cropped head in 1967 or they had a pair of cherry red boots and rode a scooter, and even a lot of West Ham fans although dressed the part and where the Part they lacked what I had, and thats what a Bovver boy has in abundance BOTTLE.

DAVE WHO ARE YOU?.

[dthedrug]

1. HI SOULSTERS, I HAVE PINNED THIS UP BEFORE, BUT IT FITS IN NEATLY WITH THIS THREAD, AND AS MOST PEOPLE RATTLED AS THEY DANCED, I WAS LUCKY, I USED TO GET STUFF FROM THE SK&F FACTORY IN WELGAR,
2. 80 5mg DEXEDRINE £ METHADONE 2/6d A JACK 10 £1 FRENCH BLUES 80 £1 CAPS WERE A TANNER EACH, HOWEVER THERE ALWAYS WAS THE CHEMIST IF YOU WERE IN A HURRY?? DAVE KIL

HI ALL AND YOU COCKNEY REDS??/ WHO ARE YOU!?!.... CHANGING THE SUBJECT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION ASKED, I AM SURE THAT HE IS HAPPY WITH THE ANSWERS SO FAR, WHICH IN THE MAIN ILLUSTRATES THE DIVERSITY OF HOW THE NORTHERN SOUL SCENE FLEDGED IN THE EARLY 70s BY DISGRUNTLED lost SOULS WHO WANTED MUCH MORE THAN A JOB MORTGAGE WIFE AND KIDS, MOST SOUL GOERS SAW THEMSELVES AS DIFFERENT FROM OTHERS EVEN THE MATES THEY GREW UP WITH. SOME LIKE MYSELF WERE ANTI ANYTHING OR BODY, MY LACK OF TRUST IN ANYTHING CONFORMIST, BECAUSE OF MY UPBRINGING IN KIDS HOME A APPROVE SCHOOLS MEANT YOU HAD TO BE ALPHA, AS EVERY ONE IS A TARGET IN AN INSTITUTION, FEND FOR YOURSELF WAS THE ONE AND ONLY RULE, THE SKINHEAD SUB CULTURE WAS AT IT;S HARD END MADE UP BY PEOPLE WITH SIMILAR BROKEN BACKGROUND, WE MADE UP THE NEW RULES THAT WE DISCOVERED IN CHILDHOOD TO SURVIVE, AND AS IF WE WERE ONE, FOUND OUT THAT WE WERE NOT ALONE, THESE EARLY BEGINNINGS WERE DESTINED TO BE STAMPED OUT BY THE LAW AND ORDER PEOPLE, AND OVER A PERIOD OF 24 MONTHS THE POLICE TOOK OUT THE HIERARCHY SENT THEM ALL TO BHMB OR HM DC, ONCE YOU GOT INTO THE 70s ALL THAT WAS LEFT WAS A FASHION SEEN, AND THATS WHAT MOST PEOPLE LIKE THE MOST ABOUT THE ORIGINAL CULTURE THE CLOTHS THE STYLE, I CERTAINLY WOULD NEVER WANT ANYONE TO HAVE THE CHILDHOOD I HAD, JUST TO BE IN A SUB CULTURE, i AM ALSO ALARMED OUT OF THE HARD CORE OF OUR FIRM THOSE WHO HAVE DIED AND THOSE WHO SURVIVED ARE A PRODUCT WHAT GOES ROUND, COMES BACK AND HAUNTS YOU, THE NORTH HERTS FIRM WAS VERY VIOLENT AND UNSTABLE, AS WE FOUND OUT WHEN JOHN THE JACK "BOILED HIS BABY!?TRUE SAD FACT"..

,..HERE IS THE MISSING ARTICLE, DAVE KIL

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

Hi All ...I must reply to your innuendo that I am a dreamer (only when I have a peddle do I dream), I have a few questions for you and your like.

1.W hat is a COCKNEY RED? AS this terminology was not in use in the 60s and especially in 1967, I maybe wrong, but the nearest thing to what you call Cockney Red was when a hard core gang from MILE End used to pretend the were MU fans looking for bovver in North Bank,/? I am sure any WHU fan from the time will remember this,

Your question is rhetorical

2. What part of London are you from what area did you grow up in, and I take it your mates were all Cockney Reds, otherwise you must have been lonely as child especially with all your bruises that you got from the other Cockney Kids who supported there local team???

CRs were and still are one of London's biggest firms. Who would they be taking a slap off

3. For the record and I will defend this statement always the first Skinhead Gangs as we know them to be as a Youth Sub Culture, sprung up in the East End of London from May 68, most areas of east London from Whitechapel Stepney Bethnal green to the wansted Flats Hackney Marshes to Ilford Giddea Park Harrold Hill Dagenham & Barking saw this happening and by September the majority of Kids in the North Bank Had #1 Haircuts, please dont tell me so did the kids in Bristol Kes! thats a typical Northerner from the same period, of course there were Mods up the North, and Football Hooligans, But no Skinhead gangs, FACT, I mention Millwall as it's a part of the east end, and the Den was only across the Water, It is my Personal memory of Similar types from Bermondsy Newcross London Bridge area at the time, plus they were bound to copy anything the WEST HAM did, as the could recognize Style,

Definately started in London. I would have put Chelsea first

4. I cant imagine a Cockney going down to Upton Park Or the DEN and making a serious statement about supporting Manchester United?? I'm baffled

You need to check your history. West Ham have been turned over by United at theirs several times. This included substantial London support. West Ham have never had a result at OT. They turned up once in 1985 and were legged all over the gaff.

5. I will reiterate again The Bovver Boy Boot Boy cult grew into the SKINHEAD sub culture at West Ham United, nowhere else absolutely and Finally. have you got it, I am not interested if someone uncle had a cropped head in 1967 or they had a pair of cherry red boots and rode a scooter, and even a lot of West Ham fans although dressed the part and where the Part they lacked what I had, and thats what a Bovver boy has in abundance BOTTLE.

That is merely an assertion

DAVE WHO ARE YOU?.

[Guest colin brown]

HI ALL.... Sorry to say but yes it was, in fact far to common, You must take note, that our RARE SOUL SCENE did not just happen over night, It was hatched and nurtured from Violent Youth Sub Cultures of the 60ts when it was common place for young people to be Territorial, this was most notable at Football matches where there was always a Territorial thing for decades but with the passing of time the decade became one full of anger (agro!) as the Sub cult's widened and many kids had grown up with the Grey days of the 50s, by the late 60s the word teenager meant much more than it did in the 50s with it's 2 sub cultures of Teddy Boys and Beatniks, although the roots of our scene can be traced back that far, with the love of American music All night dancing and the experimental using of drugs like Cannabis & Bennie's (Benzedrine a Stimulant) being the most popular,

As we entered the 1960s the modernist cult was an elitist sub culture style and nonchalance hand in hand, but not uncouth, once this sub culture developed and people in the know also rose in status, it was not by luck material wealth was the #1 pre-requisite to be a top MOD being elitist was and still is the desire, and as such it brings envy to be as popular, over 5 years 60 - 65 the MOD introduced such a way of being it was not just a cult it was a style to be imitated but with improvements , STYLE meant everything to my broth and sister who were original MODS, even when fighting my Brother had style even when head butting someone, The MODS of were Violent and Territorial common place were Dance Hall Fights on a Saturday night,

I can clearly remember being hustle with the threat of violence for my watch in the toilets of the Flamingo, and it was the same at the Scene Tiles Rm Jam, Ricky Tick clubs California ROYAL, SRETHAM Lyceum,the MECCA Stevenage, if you were not known you were a target, and if you had a reputation you were targeted, even at te Wheel there was trouble,

From 68 the younger MODS embraced the Saturday night kick in or the causing bovver with away supporters at football, my club WEST HAM UNITED FC & Millwall were the top clubs for gang warfare and the start of perhaps the most violent youth sub culture,the Bovver Boy (Skinhead) fashion started there in 68 and the Sub Culture spread quickly a nd peaked at West Ham Late 69 but in the midlands and the north it was still developing. If you look at photos of people who went to the Wheel in 1970 the Fashion is up to date with London but else where people were still getting a #1,

As I stated our Scene comes from this moment of History and the Territorial thing carried on at least to the Jubilee when the mantle was handed to PUNK ROCK, However most people who are in the late 50s earl 60ts who attended and made the scene were capable of most things heavy, but for some reason that I still don't know? is why the the fraternal spirit come about on the SOUL SCENE?

I f you want more info please ask and don't believe some of the crap written by people who were not thee?? I always sold the Proper STUFF DAVE KIL

I hope you do not mean Skinheads(violent youth sub cultures from the 60s).We were nice bunch of Fellas,once you got to know us!

[Guest colin brown]

Cockney Reds used to go to West Ham-and got derided for it.Not too many Mancurians used to go in the 60s

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

got derided for it.

the more derision the better. It's the result that counts

[dthedrug]

the more derision the better. It's the result that counts

Hi All That may be true if you are talking about a result, in these paragraphs I put the reason and logic and hope that I have made my point , However the stuff you have added, has naif all to do with the subject, which is rhetoric and factual, I am a transparent as you can get, your talk about the largest firm in London and Skinheads started in West London at Chelsea, just goes to show me that, you have no idea of what you are talking about? and certainly tells me you have never been involved at the sharp end of Terrace occupation, at least not in London you ain't.

Chelsea FC in 68 69 were a nothing team and never won a thing there fame was Jimmy Greaves there was a Caf in Shepard's Bush that had a sign in the window, saying "if Chelsea ever win the FA Cup every one could have a free meal" of course this sign had been up before the BLITZ, in 1970 they did win it.

The team were infamous for playing lazy dirty football, there best player was the CAT PB, and the most overrated was OSGOOD he was NO GOOD.

Te Skinheads of West London born and bread were QPR & Fulham supporters I remember the Chelsea SKINHEADS average age 16 years they started the craze of tieing a scarf around the wrist, in 1972 CHELSEA V WEST HAM we took the SHED

The Old Bill would not let the game start till the WEST HAM left the SHED, Ho ever I stayed in the SHED with about 40 others and it was not till half time that we decided to leave, when I jumped onto the pitch to walk to the other stand 3 Coppers jumped on me as i walked past the Goal for a moment I broke free and gave the shed 2 fingers and the cry of Wankers that is what it was all about.

And for me that was the closing chapter of what was a great 4 years, but the rare SOUL SCENE was tee to explore a new tangent in my serendipitous journey, even writing this makes me wonder what are men doing stuff that we did as KIDS?? in one of CAZ Pennants books there is an account of that match , and it is nothing like it really was, as this game was on ITV has any one got a copy as I must be the DOGS, and finally I am not at all interested in anything that I was not involved in, and as I say it had all died out around the country, Pills also dried up it was indifferent from then and on wards, but at least I retain the SPIRIT of 60 DAVE "KILLER" KIL

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

Hi All That may be true if you are talking about a result, in these paragraphs I put the reason and logic and hope that I have made my point , However the stuff you have added, has naif all to do with the subject, which is rhetoric and factual, I am a transparent as you can get, your talk about the largest firm in London and Skinheads started in West London at Chelsea, just goes to show me that, you have no idea of what you are talking about? and certainly tells me you have never been involved at the sharp end of Terrace occupation, at least not in London you ain't.

Chelsea FC in 68 69 were a nothing team and never won a thing there fame was Jimmy Greaves there was a Caf in Shepard's Bush that had a sign in the window, saying "if Chelsea ever win the FA Cup every one could have a free meal" of course this sign had been up before the BLITZ, in 1970 they did win it.

The team were infamous for playing lazy dirty football, there best player was the CAT PB, and the most overrated was OSGOOD he was NO GOOD.

Te Skinheads of West London born and bread were QPR & Fulham supporters I remember the Chelsea SKINHEADS average age 16 years they started the craze of tieing a scarf around the wrist, in 1972 CHELSEA V WEST HAM we took the SHED

The Old Bill would not let the game start till the WEST HAM left the SHED, Ho ever I stayed in the SHED with about 40 others and it was not till half time that we decided to leave, when I jumped onto the pitch to walk to the other stand 3 Coppers jumped on me as i walked past the Goal for a moment I broke free and gave the shed 2 fingers and the cry of Wankers that is what it was all about.

And for me that was the closing chapter of what was a great 4 years, but the rare SOUL SCENE was tee to explore a new tangent in my serendipitous journey, even writing this makes me wonder what are men doing stuff that we did as KIDS?? in one of CAZ Pennants books there is an account of that match , and it is nothing like it really was, as this game was on ITV has any one got a copy as I must be the DOGS, and finally I am not at all interested in anything that I was not involved in, and as I say it had all died out around the country, Pills also dried up it was indifferent from then and on wards, but at least I retain the SPIRIT of 60 DAVE "KILLER" KIL

load of bollocks mate, you ain't got a scooby, you should have stuck around a bit longer

[macca]

I see we're upping the intellectual debate quality stakes here.

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

I see we're upping the intellectual debate quality stakes here.

I did occur to me that a note on the role of epistemology and logic in debate could be useful, but most people wouldn't be able to acknowledge or appreciate this. So why not resort to what everyone else seems to do if they disagree with a discussant, that is, deny that they were genuine participants, and/or question the authenticity of their knowledge. Then you get into the endless cycle of "you weren't there", "you're not real", "I am real", "wouldn't it be good if you could be like me, but you can't", etc ad nauseum.

na na na-na na

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Steve L]

I did occur to me that a note on the role of epistemology and logic in debate could be useful, but most people wouldn't be able to acknowledge or appreciate this. So why not resort to what everyone else seems to do if they disagree with a discussant, that is, deny that they were genuine participants, and/or question the authenticity of their knowledge. Then you get into the endless cycle of "you weren't there", "you're not real", "I am real", "wouldn't it be good if you could be like me, but you can't", etc ad nauseum.

na na na-na na

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Quality

[Alan Bonthrone1]

Quality

I Had To Look That Word Up.

[Steve L]

I Had To Look That Word Up.

So did I

[macca]

A gargantuan leap in the stakes old chap. I would dispute word discussant though, being a sort of Johnny-Come-Lately in linguistic terms, id est, American nonsense. Discussion, in its original vulgar Latin context, was forceful, combative argument, as in row or ding-dong. However, regards the 'debate' we've seen thus far, I much prefer the not-yet -available- in- English- but -soon- will- be term 'contrincant', i.e. opponent. Rolls of the tongue nicely. As far as epistemology is concerned, well we're bound to get bogged down, aren't we? The words scope, range, boundaries and limits will rear their ugly heads, which is quite frustrating, especially when it comes to bestowing meaning on the cultural impact of mid to late 20th century youth culture on bewildered and uncomprehending parents, deeply troubled at their children's obsessively compulsive desire to occupy their contrincants' ends. Other less worrisome traits, such as scarves tied to wrists, half mast white skinners, barathea blazers, tank tops and budgie jackets in the transition period from boffer boy ( I object to the use of the letter V as a double consonant) and suedeheads, to Soul Boy circa 74 (and the subsequent 'sell out' to market forces) will be the subject of a separate debate, which promises to be heated though good natured, I mean we're all Soul brothers, aren't we?

[KevH]

A gargantuan leap in the stakes old chap. I would dispute word discussant though, being a sort of Johnny-Come-Lately in linguistic terms, id est, American nonsense. Discussion, in its original vulgar Latin context, was forceful, combative argument, as in row or ding-dong. However, regards the 'debate' we've seen thus far, I much prefer the not-yet -available- in- English- but -soon- will- be term 'contrincant', i.e. opponent. Rolls of the tongue nicely. As far as epistemology is concerned, well we're bound to get bogged down, aren't we? The words scope, range, boundaries and limits will rear their ugly heads, which is quite frustrating, especially when it comes to bestowing meaning on the cultural impact of mid to late 20th century youth culture on bewildered and uncomprehending parents, deeply troubled at their children's obsessively compulsive desire to occupy their contrincants' ends. Other less worrisome traits, such as scarves tied to wrists, half mast white skinners, barathea blazers, tank tops and budgie jackets in the transition period from boffer boy ( I object to the use of the letter V as a double consonant) and suedeheads, to Soul Boy circa 74 (and the subsequent 'sell out' to market forces) will be the subject of a separate debate, which promises to be heated though good natured, I mean we're all Soul brothers, aren't we?

..that's easy for you to say...

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

A gargantuan leap in the stakes old chap. I would dispute word discussant though, being a sort of Johnny-Come-Lately in linguistic terms, id est, American nonsense. Discussion, in its original vulgar Latin context, was forceful, combative argument, as in row or ding-dong. However, regards the 'debate' we've seen thus far, I much prefer the not-yet -available- in- English- but -soon- will- be term 'contrincant', i.e. opponent. Rolls of the tongue nicely. As far as epistemology is concerned, well we're bound to get bogged down, aren't we? The words scope, range, boundaries and limits will rear their ugly heads, which is quite frustrating, especially when it comes to bestowing meaning on the cultural impact of mid to late 20th century youth culture on bewildered and uncomprehending parents, deeply troubled at their children's obsessively compulsive desire to occupy their contrincants' ends. Other less worrisome traits, such as scarves tied to wrists, half mast white skinners, barathea blazers, tank tops and budgie jackets in the transition period from boffer boy ( I object to the use of the letter V as a double consonant) and suedeheads, to Soul Boy circa 74 (and the subsequent 'sell out' to market forces) will be the subject of a separate debate, which promises to be heated though good natured, I mean we're all Soul brothers, aren't we?

sweet

[Steve L]

A gargantuan leap in the stakes old chap. I would dispute word discussant though, being a sort of Johnny-Come-Lately in linguistic terms, id est, American nonsense. Discussion, in its original vulgar Latin context, was forceful, combative argument, as in row or ding-dong. However, regards the 'debate' we've seen thus far, I much prefer the not-yet -available- in- English- but -soon- will- be term 'contrincant', i.e. opponent. Rolls of the tongue nicely. As far as epistemology is concerned, well we're bound to get bogged down, aren't we? The words scope, range, boundaries and limits will rear their ugly heads, which is quite frustrating, especially when it comes to bestowing meaning on the cultural impact of mid to late 20th century youth culture on bewildered and uncomprehending parents, deeply troubled at their children's obsessively compulsive desire to occupy their contrincants' ends. Other less worrisome traits, such as scarves tied to wrists, half mast white skinners, barathea blazers, tank tops and budgie jackets in the transition period from boffer boy ( I object to the use of the letter V as a double consonant) and suedeheads, to Soul Boy circa 74 (and the subsequent 'sell out' to market forces) will be the subject of a separate debate, which promises to be heated though good natured, I mean we're all Soul brothers, aren't we?

Show Off

Very Good but I like things short sweet and to the point so Eastbank Bootboy is ahead on points for me

Next round?

Come on Bootboy my money's on you, remember lots of concise jabs setting up for a knockout blow

[dthedrug]

I did occur to me that a note on the role of epistemology and logic in debate could be useful, but most people wouldn't be able to acknowledge or appreciate this. So why not resort to what everyone else seems to do if they disagree with a discussant, that is, deny that they were genuine participants, and/or question the authenticity of their knowledge. Then you get into the endless cycle of "you weren't there", "you're not real", "I am real", "wouldn't it be good if you could be like me, but you can't", etc ad nauseum.

Na Na Na-na na

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

HI ALL....I really don#t no why this thread, has individuals with good intellect, but so insecure that they hide themselves away behind a pseudonym and keep everything a secret, and when to stand up and be counted, or give a account on how they developed into who they are today, baffles me, all I have learnt from this person is nothing, Nothing about why he become a Manchester United Fan as there are many teams in London, and the vast majority of Football Fans do support thee local team, or a team that has some connection with there family, in the West Midlands again this is a good example of my point, Wolves, West Brom, have a excellent fan base and British rivalry almost hate for each other, plus back in the day they had a hardcore firm, Wolves had the Subway Army, I can see them now in their Lyle & Scots or Pringles with Farah's back in the 80s, and I have asked around about the Cockney Reds? and what I found out was what I already knew, the typical CR is Middle aged living within 80 miles of London and infamous for fighting fans from the lower divisions and typically turning up at the wrong meet and beating up kids of estates, Good luck to them and our Friend, who has a liking for Aldershot Town, I wonder if he wanted to be a squadie,

Myself I gave you and the thread a realistic point of view on the subject of villains on the early soul scene, by informing every one what I am about and anyone who has met me knows that, in my youth like in many areas in the north and the South I enjoyed being a part of the IN CROWD, more than constantly proving that you are a hard man, I got most of that out of the way by the time I reached 25, but if challenged I will take anyone on, it's a shame that our man from the sticks cant see that when he is giving it large, as his front is no larger than a back street corner shop, so come on Mr Eaststand BB tell us who you are or I will hunt you down, WHO ARE YOU!

lets get back to the real stuff and not the pretense of wishful thinking please, DAVE KIL

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

HI ALL....I really don#t no why this thread, has individuals with good intellect, but so insecure that they hide themselves away behind a pseudonym and keep everything a secret, and when to stand up and be counted, or give a account on how they developed into who they are today, baffles me, all I have learnt from this person is nothing, Nothing about why he become a Manchester United Fan as there are many teams in London, and the vast majority of Football Fans do support thee local team, or a team that has some connection with there family, in the West Midlands again this is a good example of my point, Wolves, West Brom, have a excellent fan base and British rivalry almost hate for each other, plus back in the day they had a hardcore firm, Wolves had the Subway Army, I can see them now in their Lyle & Scots or Pringles with Farah's back in the 80s, and I have asked around about the Cockney Reds? and what I found out was what I already knew, the typical CR is Middle aged living within 80 miles of London and infamous for fighting fans from the lower divisions and typically turning up at the wrong meet and beating up kids of estates, Good luck to them and our Friend, who has a liking for Aldershot Town, I wonder if he wanted to be a squadie,

Myself I gave you and the thread a realistic point of view on the subject of villains on the early soul scene, by informing every one what I am about and anyone who has met me knows that, in my youth like in many areas in the north and the South I enjoyed being a part of the IN CROWD, more than constantly proving that you are a hard man, I got most of that out of the way by the time I reached 25, but if challenged I will take anyone on, it's a shame that our man from the sticks cant see that when he is giving it large, as his front is no larger than a back street corner shop, so come on Mr Eaststand BB tell us who you are or I will hunt you down, WHO ARE YOU!

lets get back to the real stuff and not the pretense of wishful thinking please, DAVE KIL

I see you have added to your repertoire of debating ploys. Make out you're connected. Tell us you've asked around without highlighting the reliability of your evidence. Question the integrity of the person that you are debating with by using that old chestnut "he lives in the sticks". And when all else fails, you try to intimidate your way into clinching the argument by suggesting that you will hunt me down. It hasn't worked. You haven't moved your own arguments forward.

So, in your own immortal words, "let's get back to the real stuff and not the pretence of wishful thinking"

Edited April 6, 2011 by Eastbank Bootboy