This Record Definitely Doesn't Exist, (Or Does It) ?

[Ian Dewhirst]

HI ALL I HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES BEFORE THE VOLUMES DOES EXIST, I HAVE SEEN IT, IT WAS IN STEVENS RECORD SHOP LETCHWORTH, THIS IS WERE I GOT MY ACTION 45s AND MY REGGAE IN 68 - 72 AS A ISSUE KEITH MINSHALL SWEARERS BLIND HE HAD ONE IN STOCK WHEN IT DOES TURN UP? THE FULL STORY CAN THEN BE TOLD ON WHY THE BROTHERS DISPOSED OFF MANY COPIES, A SIMILAR OUTCOME ON HOW FEW RAY MERREL'S THERE IS, AND WHY THE SHELVES WERE BARE AT THE PRESIDENT WHERE HOUSE? THE PRE RELEASE WOULD BE THE US COPY WITH STICKER AND INFO AS I HAVE A FEW SOUL RELEASES ON PAMA THE ONLY DEMOS AND PRE RELEASE I HAVE ARE RECORDS BY THE CROWNS AND SKELETON A RECORDS SOMETIME IN GOLD AND RED. I MAYBE WRONG. BUT I AIN'T WRONG IT EXISTS ALL THE EVIDENCE IS THERE, BUT WERE THEY ARE AND WHY WE AIN'T SEEN ONE FOR MANY YEARS IS DOWN TO THE PALMAS OK! DAVE

Mmm. PM-755 according to this......

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=93808

Ian D

[Jerry Hipkiss]

Fascinating - confirms Pete S's post (not that I'd doubt him anyway ) - so the story continues!

[Ian Dewhirst]

Fascinating - confirms Pete S's post (not that I'd doubt him anyway ) - so the story continues!

I don't doubt him either..........apart from the fact that I can almost swear that I've physically seen a copy in a guy's record box back in '73. But hey, 38 years ago is a long time......

Ian D

[Rick Cooper]

All of the Johnny Dunn 45 on Veep I have seen have been demos - both full face and the small Veep symbol design.The originals are styrene and have a Bellsound stamp to differentiate them from the pressing if memory serves me right. Mind you, I havent seen an issue of Johnny Dunn.

While we are on Veep, come to think of it, I haven't seen an issue of either the Star-Treks or a Timothy Wilson "Hey Girl do you love me". Anyone - do they exist ?

The Don Varner "Tear Stained Face" remains the greatest mystery on the label - surely this would have surfaced by now if it did exist. I've heard the rumours of the box which went to Holland in the early 70's, for the deep side, but cant believe that nothing has surfaced. You've got to put it down as believe it only when you see it !

Take care

John

Maybe this has come up before when ''Tear Stained Face'' on Veep gets mentioned but it may help.

The attached scans are from the inner booklet from a Japannese LP ''I'm Wondering- Veep Singles Collection'' issued 1980 on UA/Veep.

It looks like it is a fairly detailed essay on Veep but only the artist and titles are in English. The first column lists Veep 1296 ''Meet me in Church''/ ''Tear Stained Face'' so there must be some info about it . TSF isn't on the LP .

So does anyone know if it has been translated before or can anyone translate it for me?

The scan isn't very clear but I may be able to get it better if anyone wants it.

Another thing I remember is that Ian Levine had TSF on Veep on his wants list in the mid 70's so it was known about then so why has it never been seen?

Rick

[Guest Dave Turner]

The reason this story still has some credibility is because of The Volumes 45's appearance in "The New Singles", a fold out brochure that came out every week listing all of that weeks new releases, I used to have hundreds of these when working for Music Master and it definitely appears in that publication, but the information would have been provided weeks before publication and of course record companies change their minds. If it exists, there's a possibility it might have appeared on a "pre", a white label advance press, however I don't think Pama produced these for their soul releases.

Pete, re your last sentence look at the very bottom of this page -----

https://www.studiowon...pamasingles.asp

However, at least two swear they've seen it so quite a puzzler.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Dave Turner

[Ian Dewhirst]

Maybe this has come up before when ''Tear Stained Face'' on Veep gets mentioned but it may help.

The attached scans are from the inner booklet from a Japannese LP ''I'm Wondering- Veep Singles Collection'' issued 1980 on UA/Veep.

It looks like it is a fairly detailed essay on Veep but only the artist and titles are in English. The first column lists Veep 1296 ''Meet me in Church''/ ''Tear Stained Face'' so there must be some info about it . TSF isn't on the LP .

So does anyone know if it has been translated before or can anyone translate it for me?

The scan isn't very clear but I may be able to get it better if anyone wants it.

Another thing I remember is that Ian Levine had TSF on Veep on his wants list in the mid 70's so it was known about then so why has it never been seen?

Rick

Where's Flynny when we need him........?

Fascinating stuff Rick.

It really doesn't surprise me that threads like this come up from time to time. Having worked for most of the major record companies and a number of indies over the last 35 years, I can say catergorically say that many releases get 'lost', slip between the cracks or never make it out to wider distribution fairly regularly for one reason or another. Sometimes it can be a pressing fault, a label copy fault, a legal problem or a pressing/distribution glitch. Sometimes a release date changes at the last minute, a tour date changes, a promotional tour gets aborted, an artist gets ill, the record company falls out with the management or a 'cease and desist' order comes through the door. In short, there's tons of reasons why a record may get pressed but never make it out of the warehouse. I've been actively involved in every aspect of certain releases and yet, several years later, I've bumped into a completely different pressing or pic sleeve that I never sanctioned or even remembered from the time. Shit happens and it wouldn't surprise me if someone can eventually turn up a Volumes on Pama or a Don Varner on Veep.

I mean I only heard "Happiest Man" by Gerard on Laurie today for the first time! How can there possibly be such an unknown killer Northern Soul tune on a label which spawned Dean Parrish, Hoagy Lands, The Casualeers etc, etc?

Happiest Man - Gerard - Laurie Records

Anything's possible, especially if it's Northern Soul.

Ian D

Edited March 9, 2011 by Ian Dewhirst

[Derek Pearson]

suprised nobodies yet asked - are there any issue copies of Judy Freeman's superb "Hold On" lurking about somewhere?

A label scan would be very nice indeed.

I'm fairly certain Mister Manship once auctioned a copy probably well over 20 years ago;

I remember it because he asked the question 'Where are all the collectors' ? (or summat along them lines).

Actually that would imply it didn't sell or didn't fetch no where near enough money considering its proven track rarity.

Er Mmmm?

derek

[Guest DeeJay]

george blackwell - demo? Joe Hicks demo? johnny dunn demo? (veep) not the repress

I have A George Blackwell Stamped with DJ copy only (It's a blue issue with a stamp on it)

DJ

[Mick Holdsworth]

I mean I only heard "Happiest Man" by Gerard on Laurie today for the first time! How can there possibly be such an unknown killer Northern Soul tune on a label which spawned Dean Parrish, Hoagy Lands, The Casualeers etc, etc?

Happiest Man - Gerard - Laurie Records

Anything's possible, especially if it's Northern Soul.

Ian D

I was going to ask why you said it was unknown, but I just clicked the link and that answers that !!

Just listened and I must admit I'd forgotten how good it was, but to say it was unknown is not really 100% accurate. I'm guessing the seller on this one has made a typo at £1000 - If it was £100 that would be a bit over the top, but possible to achieve if you wait long enough.

They do appear on eBay occasionally for between £10 - £30, presumably also Gemm etc. - nothing at the moment, but a stock went through eBay about 2 months ago, and a demo about Nov / Dec, both in the £10 bracket. If I had heard the clip to remind me of it then, I would have had bought one of them.

Cheers

Mick

[Harry Crosby]

suprised nobodies yet asked - are there any issue copies of Judy Freeman's superb "Hold On" lurking about somewhere?

A label scan would be very nice indeed.

I'm fairly certain Mister Manship once auctioned a copy probably well over 20 years ago;

I remember it because he asked the question 'Where are all the collectors' ? (or summat along them lines).

Actually that would imply it didn't sell or didn't fetch no where near enough money considering its proven track rarity.

Er Mmmm?

derek

Deffo derek, graham kelly York, still has one i believe-H

[Ian Dewhirst]

I was going to ask why you said it was unknown, but I just clicked the link and that answers that !!

Just listened and I must admit I'd forgotten how good it was, but to say it was unknown is not really 100% accurate. I'm guessing the seller on this one has made a typo at £1000 - If it was £100 that would be a bit over the top, but possible to achieve if you wait long enough.

They do appear on eBay occasionally for between £10 - £30, presumably also Gemm etc. - nothing at the moment, but a stock went through eBay about 2 months ago, and a demo about Nov / Dec, both in the £10 bracket. If I had heard the clip to remind me of it then, I would have had bought one of them.

Cheers

Mick

Ah. Didn't realise that it was known Mick. I'm staggered it's never taken off. Completely new to me. That's what happens when you drop off a scene for 20 years! That would have been a HUGE record in my day...........

Ian D

[Chalky]

Ah. Didn't realise that it was known Mick. I'm staggered it's never taken off. Completely new to me. That's what happens when you drop off a scene for 20 years! That would have been a HUGE record in my day...........

Ian D

Think the "in my day" about sums this up Ian, 1977 maybe, not really a record for today's scene surely? Personally think it is terrible and that price has to be a joke surely?

[Pete S]

I'm guessing the seller on this one has made a typo at £1000

Probably not...

[Guest Dante]

Think the "in my day" about sums this up Ian, 1977 maybe, not really a record for today's scene surely? Personally think it is terrible and that price has to be a joke surely?

I'm starting to think that site is just a big comedy thing that we're not getting. It has to be.

Re the Gerard record. I was kinda liking it 'till he violins kicked in. Cheesy.

[Pete S]

I'm starting to think that site is just a big comedy thing that we're not getting. It has to be.

Re the Gerard record. I was kinda liking it 'till he violins kicked in. Cheesy.

Yes, I kind of liked the first two seconds, the rest was a pile of sh*t

[Guest Paul]

I'm starting to think that site is just a big comedy thing that we're not getting. It has to be.

Re the Gerard record. I was kinda liking it 'till he violins kicked in. Cheesy.

I think we discussed some of the prices from that website on another thread recently.

Each to his own but £1000 for a mediocre pop record is a bit much in my opinion ...about one hundred times too much.

The singer is Gerard Kenny, by the way.

[Ian Dewhirst]

I think we discussed some of the prices from that website on another thread recently.

Each to his own but £1000 for a mediocre pop record is a bit much in my opinion ...about one hundred times too much.

The singer is Gerard Kenny, by the way.

Of "New York New York" fame. Yep, you're all right. It sucks LOL.....

Ian D

[Ady Croasdell]

Gerri Hall on Sue, given a release number but probably didn't get to production.

Walter Wilson on Wand didn't exist until i found one in Billy Jackson's gaff!

[Chalky]

Probably not...

If not Pete he makes a habit of making typos....

[Denbo]

Marv Johnson 'Why Do You Want to Let Me Go/I'm Not A Plaything' (TMG 525) is the only TMG 500 series Tamla Motown 45 that doesn't exist as a demo...

But Tony, Didn't we see a complete set of the first one hundred on TMG sell as a completee set of Demos on eBay a few years ago for just short of £10,000?

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

But Tony, Didn't we see a complete set of the first one hundred on TMG sell as a completee set of Demos on eBay a few years ago for just short of £10,000?

In the words of a Mr Wenger "I didn't see it..."

But believe me when I say that the nearest anyone can get to owning a demo of TMG 525 is owning a stock copy with a factory sample sticker on it.

And on the topic of the Volumes, I had a brief interlude with brother Dewhirst today and I told him that I'm absolutely certain that I saw at least one copy (and possibly more) among the overstocks that were being sold off in 'Soundville', Pama's own shop, in 1972. I was 'on a budget' and they didn't play their cheapies in there, so I probably bought a reggae 45 that I knew instead.

I really don't think I imagined this. The record wasn't in demand then, so there was no real reason for me to do so...

[Denbo]

In the words of a Mr Wenger "I didn't see it..."

But believe me when I say that the nearest anyone can get to owning a demo of TMG 525 is owning a stock copy with a factory sample sticker on it.

How did you come by this fact Tony?

Not saying your wrong, just curious.

Although, I'm nearly 100% certain that that complete set of first 100 TMG's were all Demos.

They were all laid out on a table or bed and I remember the change in colour as the Demos went from white with a red 'A' to green with a white 'A'.

Or did I imagine it? Doo do doo do, doo do doo do. :o)

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

How did you come by this fact Tony?

It's been confirmed to me, on separate occasions, by at least two of the top UK Motown collectors. I think it's also mentioned in the appropriate volume of 'The Complete (US) Motown Singles' that it;s the only 500 that doesn't have a red-and-white demo.

If anyone does have a copy of this non-existent rarity, though, Kent would like to get a scan of both sides for our upcoming Marv Johnson Motown compilation!

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Somebody who sold one on eBay not so long ago seems to agree with me!

https://www.popsike.com/TAMLA-MOTOWN-TMG-525MARV-JOHNSONWHY-DO-YOUMINT/230549595436.html

[Denbo]

Somebody who sold one on eBay not so long ago seems to agree with me!

https://www.popsike.c...0549595436.html

Okay. I guess I'm open to the suggestion that the photograph showing all the red and white / green and white Demos on the table or bed, probably left out TMG 525, as it would have stuck out like a sore thumb, what with it being all black and all. :o)

[dthedrug]

Hi ALl..DEMOS don't exist fact. the Ebay list of the 500's also did not list it but did have a stock copy, I had a stock copy with a sticker, ended up going to Mick. I'm not a plaything was reissued as a DEMO, however there is meant to be a few blank labels that saw the light of day in Windsor circa 1971? DAVE

[dthedrug]

Hi All Ian I am sorry to tell you that PAMA 755 is the mauve color, not Blue as stated, it is things like this, that has confused the issue, I have read many articles about it being on Blue but it never existed on blue thats a fact #754 bobby Patterson Busy Busy Bee gives every one a clue, and the fact that I have seen it, DAVE

[Ian Dewhirst]

And on the topic of the Volumes, I had a brief interlude with brother Dewhirst today and I told him that I'm absolutely certain that I saw at least one copy (and possibly more) among the overstocks that were being sold off in 'Soundville', Pama's own shop, in 1972. I was 'on a budget' and they didn't play their cheapies in there, so I probably bought a reggae 45 that I knew instead.

I really don't think I imagined this. The record wasn't in demand then, so there was no real reason for me to do so...

Well same here. I actually left a U.S. import copy in a second-hand record shop run by a biker in Morley that was PACKED with loads of Doo-Wop and early to mid 60's gear in the early 70's and it's always plagued me since I left the bloody place. Everything in there was just slightly too dated for me at the time and I shudder to think what else was in there. Typically when I tried to find the place a few years later it had gone.....

So the record stuck in my mind and when I saw a Pama copy in a guy's box a few months after I hit the Morley shop, I thought to myself 'no big deal, it came out in England'. However, brother Tony and I couldn't quite collude on the label colour, which worries me a bit 'cos I could have sworn I saw a blue copy but Tony recalls the Mauve design.

This is one of those things that's never gonna be settled until someone whacks up a scan. I must admit it seems almost inconceivable that, if it does exist, someone out there, preferably a serious U.K. collector, wouldn't be able to confirm it with a real copy.

But the amount of gaps in that Pama label listing, plus the nature of Mr Palmer's operation anyway, mean that anything's possible. If it was ever pressed, then sooner or later one will turn up. It could easily turn up in a West London old Reggae boy's collection. That's part of the problem I guess. Pama was always patchily distributed. The first collection I ever bought from a guy in Huddersfield in 1972 contained the Mohawks and Bill Moss. Clifford Curry was widely available up North and I found plenty of other Pama soul releases in the cheap boxes up North in the 70's. But I can imagine Mr P pressing some initial copies of some releases to guage reaction and then maybe not bothering to do any more.

Some of my mates have worked for him and very little was ever documented which kinda suited the operation. That was the nature of the beast.

So I still reckon it exists.

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi All Ian I am sorry to tell you that PAMA 755 is the mauve color, not Blue as stated, it is things like this, that has confused the issue, I have read many articles about it being on Blue but it never existed on blue thats a fact #754 bobby Patterson Busy Busy Bee gives every one a clue, and the fact that I have seen it, DAVE

Damn, that's worrying 'cos that's pretty much what Rouncy said.

But hey dthedrug the proof is in the pudding mate. I think it exists, Rouncy thinks it exists and you think it exists.

So whack up a scan of one of those mauve Pama copies of the Volumes and we'll all die happy mate!

And whilst yer at it, a Sue scan of Gerri Hall wouldn't go amiss either.

Ian D

[dthedrug]

Hi All ..ian further to this mystery and one i can only speculate on, Is the whole PAMA set up JETSTAR (named after Bobby Patterson's LABEL) is one big gap that has been missing from the music industry, is the complete failure of the Palmer's to releasing product on a CD under the JETSTAR set up??? As the big answer to the Volumes will only be answered that way, PAMA LABEL was in the main a bootleg set up, with full support from JA Producers to get a 2nd bite of the pie, this is why you see COPYRIGHT CONTROL on most records on all labels, however because of legal issues, an investigation will be met with tight lips/// ... the VOLUMES does exist "no matter what the people say":thumbsup: DAVE

[Pete S]

So they decide to put out one single from the American Arts label, not the popular Gotta Give Her Love, but the non-hit Just can't Help Myself, yes that makes a lot of sense doesn't it? And in all the years since then, nobody has been able to come up with a picture of the label, not even on ebay which has turned up every single rarity released in the UK.

You two should join the ranks of the guys who've seen a silver top London Darrell Banks...they were sure they'd seen one...a British one not a S.A. or Dutch one.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

So they decide to put out one single from the American Arts label, not the popular Gotta Give Her Love, but the non-hit Just can't Help Myself, yes that makes a lot of sense doesn't it? And in all the years since then, nobody has been able to come up with a picture of the label, not even on ebay which has turned up every single rarity released in the UK.

You two should join the ranks of the guys who've seen a silver top London Darrell Banks...they were sure they'd seen one...a British one not a S.A. or Dutch one.

...To be fair, mate, Dave is the only one of us who's claiming unreservedly that the Volumes exists on Pama.

But surely three possible sightings in different parts of the country, at different times and by different people, has to lend some credence to our joint 'claims'. In my case, I think I saw it in Pama's own shop - surely there's a degree of possibility that one (or more) might have pitched up there - if it was pressed - even if other copies were scrapped.

BTW 'Gotta Give Her Love' wasn't a hit in the USA either, so your logic stumbles a little at that hurdle. And I don't think Pama cared much about whether or not a record was a US hit anyway, given that few - if any - of those that they legally licensed from Bell here were nothing like US hits. They just bunged them out abnd hoped for the best....

Darrell Banks silver top UK London definitely doen't exist as far as I'm concerned, though. In the 70s I used to share a flat with a guy who worked at Decca and, to settle an 'argument' even back then, I got him to check out the pressing order. Only the quantity of demos was filled in for manufacture, which would imply quite explicitly that stock copies were never manufactured.

Oh yeah, and there are other instances of Pama releasing just one single from a label - the Beas and Gi Gi being two...

Edited March 11, 2011 by TONY ROUNCE

[Pete S]

BTW 'Gotta Give Her Love' wasn't a hit in the USA either, so your logic stumbles a little at that hurdle.

Come on Tone, it was a massive regional hit as can be testified by the copies on Ebay every day and the fact it was pirated at the time.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi All ..ian further to this mystery and one i can only speculate on, Is the whole PAMA set up JETSTAR (named after Bobby Patterson's LABEL) is one big gap that has been missing from the music industry, is the complete failure of the Palmer's to releasing product on a CD under the JETSTAR set up??? As the big answer to the Volumes will only be answered that way, PAMA LABEL was in the main a bootleg set up, with full support from JA Producers to get a 2nd bite of the pie, this is why you see COPYRIGHT CONTROL on most records on all labels, however because of legal issues, an investigation will be met with tight lips/// ... the VOLUMES does exist "no matter what the people say":thumbsup: DAVE

Yep, Mr Palmer's deals were almost always verbal. The whole Jet Star set up was bought out of adminstration a couple of years ago by a rights management company called Phoenix and I'm pretty sure they've spent most of that time trying to clean things up as best they can. I recently licensed "The Champ" from 'em for the forthcoming "The Breaks" album.

I'll have a word with 'em and get 'em to dig out their library copy of the Volumes OK?

Ian D

[Dave Moore]

Having been a heavy duty UK 45 collector up until mid 90s and had most of the sought after stuff, I've never seen even a pic of the Volumes on Pama. You'd think that in this day and age of the 'net there'd have been a pic posted somewhere. 'Fraid I'm also in the 'doubting Thomas' brigade, I'll believe it when I see it.

Regards,

Dave

[Pete S]

Hi All ..ian further to this mystery and one i can only speculate on, Is the whole PAMA set up JETSTAR (named after Bobby Patterson's LABEL) is one big gap that has been missing from the music industry, is the complete failure of the Palmer's to releasing product on a CD under the JETSTAR set up??? As the big answer to the Volumes will only be answered that way, PAMA LABEL was in the main a bootleg set up, with full support from JA Producers to get a 2nd bite of the pie, this is why you see COPYRIGHT CONTROL on most records on all labels, however because of legal issues, an investigation will be met with tight lips/// ... the VOLUMES does exist "no matter what the people say":thumbsup: DAVE

That statement is totally contradicted in the lengthy history of Pama records as reported in the book "Tighten Up" which says that in fact Pama may have overpaying producers to license product. And obviously the reason that there's no cd's of Pama reggae is that the license deal was for the duration of that singles release, not a 30 year world wide copyright deal. Also only one of the Palmer brothers has any involvement with the music scene, apparently.

[Benji]

Come on Tone, it was a massive regional hit as can be testified by the copies on Ebay every day and the fact it was pirated at the time.

And the fact that it was mentioned as just bumbling under the Billboard Top 100 for a few weeks in october 64.

Back to the Volumes on Pama: Dave/Tony, honestly, claiming you've seen a copy 40 odd years ago means FA in the end.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Come on Tone, it was a massive regional hit as can be testified by the copies on Ebay every day and the fact it was pirated at the time.

I think you're giving the Palmers too much credit. I don't think for a minute that they followed the comings and goings of regional hits across the USA. A far more likely scenario is that they were sent promo copies of things by US indies without a UK deal and simply took a flyer on something if they liked it.

'Gotta Give Her Love' probably ended up, illicitly, on a Sue LP that way...

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

And the fact that it was mentioned as just bumbling under the Billboard Top 100 for a few weeks in october 64.

Back to the Volumes on Pama: Dave/Tony, honestly, claiming you've seen a copy 40 odd years ago means FA in the end.

Try reading all of the words in my posts, instead of just the ones that you like the look of - nowhere in any of them do I 'claim' to have seen it. What I say is that I'm almost certain that I saw it. Not the same thing at all...

...oh, and BTW Pama Records didn't incorporate until 1967. Why on earth would they be interested in looking back to see what was 'bumbling' under the US charts in October 1964 ?

[Pete S]

Try reading all of the words in my posts, instead of just the ones that you like the look of - nowhere in any of them do I 'claim' to have seen it. What I say is that I'm almost certain that I saw it. Not the same thing at all...

...oh, and BTW Pama Records didn't incorporate until 1967. Why on earth would they be interested in looking back to see what was 'bumbling' under the US charts in October 1964 ?

but why then release a 3 or 4 year old non-hit record when everything else was contemporary?

[Benji]

Try reading all of the words in my posts, instead of just the ones that you like the look of - nowhere in any of them do I 'claim' to have seen it. What I say is that I'm almost certain that I saw it. Not the same thing at all...

And on the topic of the Volumes, I had a brief interlude with brother Dewhirst today and I told him that I'm absolutely certain that I saw at least one copy (and possibly more) among the overstocks that were being sold off in 'Soundville', Pama's own shop, in 1972.

Tony, I did read all your words. Did you too?

[Pete S]

Tony, I did read all your words. Did you too?

He's almost certain he did

[Ian Dewhirst]

That statement is totally contradicted in the lengthy history of Pama records as reported in the book "Tighten Up" which says that in fact Pama may have been overpaying producers to license product.

Funniest thing I've read all year!

Ian D

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

but why then release a 3 or 4 year old non-hit record when everything else was contemporary?

I realise that i'm digging a hole for myself by saying this, but some of the things they put out from Bell were a couple of years old by the time they appeared on Pama - so not excatly 'contemporary'...

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Tony, I did read all your words. Did you too?

Still not a claim, however you slice the pie...

[Pete S]

Funniest thing I've read all year!

Ian D

Tell us why then, oh great Reggae Guru, or did you lose the postage stamp on which you wrote your information?

I was just going on this quote from Carl Palmer: "Everyone got their money, some artists even ended up owing Pama money (presumably after they had received advances bigger than the actual sales generated)" [authors brackets not mine] "and some of the artists that had been involved earlier had even come back to the label"

Edited March 11, 2011 by Pete S

[Ian Dewhirst]

Tell us why then, oh great Reggae Guru, or did you lose the postage stamp on which you wrote your information?

It's funny 'cos Mr P was never known for his regular accounting skills. That's the understatement of the century.

Phoenix have told me all the stories and they're still 2 years into trying to 'legalise' the catalogue and it's a massive, massive can of worms. Plus I've lost count of the amount of Reggae artists I've bumped into over the years who never even knew that Pama released their records in the UK. Plus my good mate Robert Blenman (former Head Of Motown UK) used to work there. Plus Mr P would generally do handshake deals and that was that. Pama/Jet Star has always been a hands-off impregnable company - everyone knows that.

Next time you come to London we'll meet up for a drink with Robert Blenman and Lloyd Bradley. Their Pama stories will keep you going for years Pete!

Ian D

[Pete S]

Plus Mr P would generally do handshake deals and that was that.

They all did that though - Bunny Lee would walk into Pama, do a deal, then go a mile away to Trojan and do a deal with them for the same product; same record comes out on both trojan and Pama with artists named changed (Pat kelly becomes Little Boy Blue or Boy Wonder, Lester Sterling becomes Mr Versatile, Dennis Alcapone becomes El Paso or B Smith etc etc)

[Ian Dewhirst]

And obviously the reason that there's no cd's of Pama reggae is that the license deal was for the duration of that singles release, not a 30 year world wide copyright deal.

Hysterical Pete. Hardly anybody in the history of the music biz would do a 'duration of a single's release' deal, mainly because it's impossible to define. If you never officially deleted a single, it could still theoretically be on catalogue for 50-60 years.

Also look at the history of "The Champ", which was still being reissued by Pama into the mid 1980's:-

The Champ - The Mohawks Release History

Most deals back then were perpetuity deals anyway and that's assuming any paperwork was ever issued! Believe you me, no one chose an arguement with Mr P and no one ever crossed him and got away with it to my knowledge. I've had a few links with Jet Star from when I did the Rewind Selecta series in the 90's so I kinda know the set-up........

Ian D

[Pete S]

Hysterical Pete. Hardly anybody in the history of the music biz would do a 'duration of a single's release' deal, mainly because it's impossible to define. If you never officially deleted a single, it could still theoretically be on catalogue for 50-60 years.

Also look at the history of "The Champ", which was still being reissued by Pama into the mid 1980's:-

The Champ - The Mohawks Release History

Most deals back then were perpetuity deals anyway and that's assuming any paperwork was ever issued! Believe you me, no one chose an arguement with Mr P and no one ever crossed him and got away with it to my knowledge. I've had a few links with Jet Star from when I did the Rewind Selecta series in the 90's so I kinda know the set-up........

Ian D

I'm just not quite sure what the Jetstar set up of today has to do with the original Pama "three brothers" set up of 1967 that's all.

And baxck to the point of this, which we've gone miles off, The Volumes does not exist on Pama, if it did, we'd have seen one by now and I'm not taking Dave Kil's word for it as a pink elephant was probably holding the record at the time he saw it. No offence Dave