Guest Posted August 5, 2004 Posted August 5, 2004 Not gonna keep harping on about this but......there is yet another royal esquires for sale on Ebay by the same Las Vegas source. Hi Dave (if your reading, we chatted about this in Manchester last sat..but when will the copies stop coming) I am tempted, but jesus at this rate, i can see the fella paying me to buy it! Once again i haven't got a clue on the rarity or value of this 45! Confused........ ps good talking with you Dave hope you enjoyed Manchester. Brett
Petebangor Posted August 5, 2004 Posted August 5, 2004 The same seller has also listed a few Fredrick Hymes as well.I'd be very wary of anything he sells. Pete
Guest Jamie Posted August 5, 2004 Posted August 5, 2004 Hi Brett, I couldn't help myself, I had to have one. Dave mentioned he had just put a copy on tape he had done and I said 'have you got a 'cheap' one aswell' It has always been a rare record until recently, infact I only had it on a crap old tape. Word got around there had been a find, only AFTER I had paid £150 for one. And there's me thinking I'd done good! To be honest, It's stone mint and it's like listening to a CD. At the end of the day, they haven't found 20K of them (?) and it's still never gonna flood the market. Fill ya boots mate, mine's gonna get a play tomorra! Jamie FOOTNOTE It's Kosher!
Guest Posted August 5, 2004 Posted August 5, 2004 Hi Jamie, you know mate i think that although i love the sound i am going to have to give it a miss....it just doesn't seem right... maybe it's me....i remember all to well 24 years ago as a kid, on the scene getting stung when i knew no better. Still jamie if you wanna sell............ all the best yours Brett.
Guest Jamie Posted August 5, 2004 Posted August 5, 2004 Hi Jamie, you know mate i think that although i love the sound i am going to have to give it a miss....it just doesn't seem right... maybe it's me....i remember all to well 24 years ago as a kid, on the scene getting stung when i knew no better. Still jamie if you wanna sell............ all the best yours Brett. OK, I'll take a tenner AND I'll deliver.
Garethx Posted August 5, 2004 Posted August 5, 2004 Brett I think this guy is aware that people on this side of the pond know he's got a certain amount of copies of The Royal Esquires. Why don't you make him an offer off-auction so to speak? In the amount you would be prepared to pay and no more. He can only say no. As Matt B said in the debate about this last month, this guy is still significantly cheaper than buying one from a box over here. I think the consensus is that they're not bootlegs. The gamble is, of course, that in two years time they might be £10. Or they might just disappear... Can anyone give a comprehensive rundown on the Frederick Hymes III? I've held off buying one of those for a couple of years, despite thinking it's an absolutely brilliant record, so I can understand your reservations about The Royal Esquires.
Guest Posted August 5, 2004 Posted August 5, 2004 Gareth good point my freind (jesus what to do) lol........we wil have to wait and see..
Guest Jamie Posted August 5, 2004 Posted August 5, 2004 I think the consensus is that they're not bootlegs. The gamble is, of course, that in two years time they might be £10. Or they might just disappear... I sort of did a bit of digging before I bid. I reached a conclusion that nobody knew of any historical boots. I made a gamble and bought one. My instincts tell me it's a good 'un. The reason I reach this conclusion is for this alone: Smaller labels at various times used lower grade vinyl, sometimes mixing them together to save money. Fine at the time, but over the years....... You know the rest. Mine on the flip looks like an aero bar, although none have popped or distort play, they are there and create a bit of movement when playing. I just can't see, if they were boots, why they would go missing for 20/30 years before surfacing, the whole idea of a boot is to make them and 'knock' them out immediately. (What I'm trying to get at is that if they were recent 'boots', then the vinyl would be in 'good' condition - i.e. the different vinyls take a long time to deteriorate to the condition mine is in) That's my conclusion anyway, if I'm wrong, I won't have been the first! Happy Hunting! Jamie
Gene-r Posted August 6, 2004 Posted August 6, 2004 Apparently, this was found in quantity around Christmas 2002, along with 2 other Prix 45s (Joe King; "Speak on Up" and Eddie Ray; "Glad I Found You"). From what I've been led to believe, the amount found of each record runs to a few hundred. I bought my copy around this time for £300; it wasn't actually one of the batch, but a copy belonging to a collector here (nameless), who must have been selling the copy he paid a packet for ages ago, foreseeing the influx of copies!! They are all originals, but I'm surprised they've taken this long to reach the market!! Hope this helps you in your decision Brett!! Have a good weekend. Gene
Guest Posted August 6, 2004 Posted August 6, 2004 Thanks Gene, i am in London next sat for the 100, are you going mate? Hoping to meet a few people before (heard Valatone is not on). So lets arrange a meet. yours Brett
Greg Belson Posted August 6, 2004 Posted August 6, 2004 Apparently, this was found in quantity around Christmas 2002, along with 2 other Prix 45s (Joe King; "Speak on Up" and Eddie Ray; "Glad I Found You"). He's also had a few copies of the funk cut by OFS Limited 'Mister Kidneys'. I spoke to him on a deal with that particular 45 and he appears to be genuine, but kinda keeps his cards to his chest ie doesn't disclose the quantity in stock he has. It would seem from the growing number of Prix sides for sale at the moment, that there has been a good find direct with the label, distro house etc.
Mattbolton Posted August 6, 2004 Posted August 6, 2004 Mine's in the post as I type. From the same guy. He actually offered it me at a lower price than it went for, since I was the losing bidder on it. I only actually put the bid in as a joke since I didn't think I'd win it. (watch it not turn up!) With shipping, I paid £150 which is substancially less that I've seen it for on people's lists. I've seen it at as daft a price as £375 in the last month and if you check out what I'm sure is one of this guys last ones on ebay, it's still gonna fetch a few quid. It's not an easy record still. Not a tenth as rare as it was, but we'll never ever know the rarity of a record. As this instance has proved. It might put to sleep all those claims of one off copies of other 45's. As opposed to one KNOWN copy. To be honest, we all knew this guy had loads a while ago. I've been in contact with him about a few more of the other Prix sides, and it appears that he really has just turned up a box of the entire label. It happens and we all wish it'd dropped on us. Still, I now want to get rid of mine, since the record I bought it to trade for in the first place turned up a day after I bloody paid for it, so if anyone wants it at the price I paid for it, then they're more than welcome. Free postage. Otherwise it'll go back on ebay as buy it now. How much is it worth in the recent wake of umpteen copies? Lord knows. It's obvious people still want them. Though I suspect it'll dry up again when people want it in the future, so as much as the price may have dropped, it's likely that people won't get rid again for quite a while. Or will they? I know for a fact dealers are stocking this baby up, so it's people are anticipating it rising when the smoke has died down. Make your own minds up over it. If anyone wants mine when it arrives, unplayed, give us a bell on matt@uselessphotography.tk. It's still a molotov dancer. However much/little it's worth.
Guest Jamie Posted August 6, 2004 Posted August 6, 2004 Hi Matt, Are you local tonight? If so, be good to see you down at Baby Jupiter. Cheers, Jamie
Emjaygee Posted August 9, 2004 Posted August 9, 2004 Just to finish off with my twopenn'orth. Matt, thanks for the mail last night offering your copy, however i took Bretts approach and offered him circa £100 for a copy, i think it translated to around £105 in all. My logic in this is that even though Danny Moore turned up in quantity, you could at one time get it for around £60 it's now still near the £80-£100 mark and not likely to shift from that (downwards anyway) as its a monster that i have always been in love with i think that i'll keep it for eons and resell value doesn't interest me. So by offering around the ton and getting one i am backing it not to fall much shorter than that so won't lose out value wise, but will be able to play it endlessly. I'm happy all round, I also got a copy of Drizabone - pressure 12" from ebay, for £12!! the guy was an 80's hip hop DJ and selling up his collection under the Hip Hop category, couldn't belive my luck for a change!!! Mark Gee
Dave Abbott Posted August 9, 2004 Posted August 9, 2004 Hi Brett, good to see you in Manchester. The price seems to have settled around the £150 mark for this. They are real, I spoke to Tim Brown about these, the guy 'hit' the label and as well as this, Joe King and Eddie Ray there is quantity of other Prix stuff that is so bad no one would want to boot them. Tim has a copy from many years ago and side by side with a copy from Vegas there is not a difference.
Mark Bicknell Posted August 9, 2004 Posted August 9, 2004 Once their gone that's it, this can/could/does happen to many records, a case of paying your money and taking your chances, does it matter how many copies there are of a good record, just means more people can have a chance of owing it! Just because copies surface this should make no difference to it's appeal, if your into buying records for any other reason than the musical enjoyment and pleasure then best off collecting stamps me thinks.......... Does this mean if there are only one or two copies of a desired tune owned by a couple of DJ/collectors and it suddenly turns up in quantity then they don't like it anymore because it's no longer exclusive? Dream Team, Danny Moore etc. etc. Still the same tune, still the emotion, so what changes, nothing that's what. As long as the selling price is reflected with a multi copy find and not still sold at it's original ultra rare price tag then there is no problem, it's when they are sold a top price that this issue becomes a little cloudy. Regards - Mark Bicknell
Gene-r Posted August 9, 2004 Posted August 9, 2004 There is a positive side to this saga.......does anyone remember ""Look Ahead" by Gordon Keith (Calumet) selling for £50 when first discovered around 1983? Three years later, an influx of copies were found, and the price stayed the same. It took around 6 months for the price to drop to something more realistic, something like £15. 15 years later, such had been the demand that even now, it can still be seen on lists at around £100 (even more than the first copies went for)!! Gene
Sebastian Posted August 9, 2004 Posted August 9, 2004 Regarding Gordon Keith, indeed it's usually seen listed at £75-£100 these days... but the last couple of copies on eBay has struggled to reach £25-£35.
Dave Abbott Posted August 9, 2004 Posted August 9, 2004 Just because copies surface this should make no difference to it's appeal, if your into buying records for any other reason than the musical enjoyment and pleasure then best off collecting stamps me thinks.......... Does this mean if there are only one or two copies of a desired tune owned by a couple of DJ/collectors and it suddenly turns up in quantity then they don't like it anymore because it's no longer exclusive? Dream Team, Danny Moore etc. etc. This is a good point Mark. Dont think I've heard the Dream Team for a while, though to be honest i dont think ive played it much since the load were found - though for me more a case of played it alot before and move one to another tune. And since there are loads of Royal Esquires here now, dont here that much either. Is it a case of there are so many that people dont want to play it? Don't know myself but; I for one will certainly play it, it is a quality tune and deserves plays no matter how many copies there are.
Chalky Posted August 9, 2004 Posted August 9, 2004 Brett I think this guy is aware that people on this side of the pond know he's got a certain amount of copies of The Royal Esquires. Why don't you make him an offer off-auction so to speak? In the amount you would be prepared to pay and no more. He can only say no. As Matt B said in the debate about this last month, this guy is still significantly cheaper than buying one from a box over here. I think the consensus is that they're not bootlegs. The gamble is, of course, that in two years time they might be £10. Or they might just disappear... Can anyone give a comprehensive rundown on the Frederick Hymes III? I've held off buying one of those for a couple of years, despite thinking it's an absolutely brilliant record, so I can understand your reservations about The Royal Esquires. Heard the count for Royal Esquires was min. 150. As for Frederick Hymes, the one to get is Tonny Hymes on Azbil, slower but far better, very rare though, only know of a few copies.
Chalky Posted August 9, 2004 Posted August 9, 2004 And since there are loads of Royal Esquires here now, dont here that much either. Is it a case of there are so many that people dont want to play it? Dunno what the fuss is about, hardly a new record, it's been played for years, old Wigan cover up (Embers - Playing The Part Of A fool). Probably due a rest but quality always prevails, if it's good enough it will be played. As for price of the record once they are gone that will be it and the price will no doubt rise again, then it will be "I can remember when there was loads of these about for a couple of 100" ;-))) Could be wrong and the whole market for NS records could crash ;-)
Guest micksmith Posted August 10, 2004 Posted August 10, 2004 I KNOW A DEALER WHO HAS AT LEAST 50 COPIES OF GORDON KEITH-WELL HE DID AT CLEETHORPES-THE RECORD IT'S SELF IS NEVER £100 MAYBE £40/£50 I WOULDN'T SAY IT WAS A CLASSIC.
Guest James Trouble Posted August 10, 2004 Posted August 10, 2004 I got a copy for around £100. I don't give a cluck if everyone has a copy because it is a DAMN good record. If DJs don't play a record because they are snobbish about it's rarety they don't deserve to be DJs. Royal esquires is BOSS...there just happens to be quite a 'few' of them.
Tony Smith Posted August 10, 2004 Posted August 10, 2004 As long as the selling price is reflected with a multi copy find and not still sold at it's original ultra rare price tag then there is no problem, it's when they are sold a top price that this issue becomes a little cloudy. Regards - Mark Bicknell Surely that's the issue here?, the prices have been kept artificially high by dealers being less than candid about quantity, no one minds paying a fair price for a good record even if it is getting played to death! Potentially they'll always come back if they're good enough, look at things like Troy Dodds-El Camino or Ascots-Mir-A-Don both played to death years ago and available for 15-20 for ages, try finding them now. As Mark says 'you pays your money.....' That said, think I'll hold off the Royal Esquires a while longer.
Guest Posted August 10, 2004 Posted August 10, 2004 Prix Label Owner Clem Price died not long ago- His inventory was auctioned off about a year ago and there is quantity on most all PRIX releases. Columbus Native, mc
Garethx Posted August 10, 2004 Posted August 10, 2004 Heard the count for Royal Esquires was min. 150. As for Frederick Hymes, the one to get is Tonny Hymes on Azbil, slower but far better, very rare though, only know of a few copies. Don't know about far better Chalky, but I take your point. Although it's the same song and vocalist the two versions are generically very different. The Tonny Hymes is a beautiful, straight deep soul record with a very muted, haunting backing. Fred is at the funkier end of crossover, so I don't think it's a question of either/or in this case. I really like them both. What I was hoping for from someone is a rundown on the Frederick Hymes 45's provenence. Like with the Prix 45s: I was told that the Royal Esquires had been played at Wigan, and people who had owned the record for years were able to compare the copies which had turned up recently with examples of the stock that had been over here since the early 80s and confirm that both were from the same batch, i.e. originals as oppposed to recent re-presses. With the Frederick Hymes, that only seemed to turn up for sale a couple of years ago just as a few big name deejays were hammering it. A very well-respected UK record dealer has told me that all copies of this are 'dodgy'. The existence of the ultra-rare Tonny Hymes original doesn't in itself legitimize Frederick Hymes if this is the case. I don't mind paying £10 or even £20 for what is essentially a new release. I do mind being asked for a couple of hundred quid for a record that can be re-pressed in large quantity any time to meet demand. Can anyone definitively spell out the truth on this matter? The current situation is exploitative at worst and only murky at best.
Guest James Trouble Posted August 10, 2004 Posted August 10, 2004 The two people who started to say the Fred Hymes were 'dodgy' were Butch and Keb, but Keb has since said that all the copies are 100% ok.
Guest Posted August 10, 2004 Posted August 10, 2004 Just to backtrack on my original post in this thread,i was told by a respected figure (in my opinion) that these were bootlegs, and i just wanted other peoples opinions which i have more than got, and am happy to make my own mind up on the whole Royal Esquires issue.
Garethx Posted August 10, 2004 Posted August 10, 2004 James, the dealer who voiced his opinion to me about the Frederick Hymes has been selling soul records since Butch and Keb were in short trousers...
Guest Posted August 11, 2004 Posted August 11, 2004 I heard rumours of a maroon, or red, label Fredrick Hymes supposed to be the original in someone's possesion before quantity turned up, so far no one has been able to provide a scan or anything though, so I think it might be just a rumour. I personally don't like the Fab Vegas release at all, but if I did and would have bought it at £1000 like many did, or £600 which scores of people coughed up for it, I would have been a very unhappy camper if it turns out to be a bootleg. The most plausible explanation is that a box or two were found IMO, not that I know for sure that they are legit, but still. The Azbill version is better I think but nothing that can be played out (or can it?), and doesn't really compare IMO either, more like a decent slow/mid-tempo soul effort.
Corbett80 Posted August 12, 2004 Posted August 12, 2004 This Hymes discussion reminds me of the Elvin Spencer record 'Lift This Hurt'.......the one on Twinight is no where near the earlier version on Winner. Apparently theres another version or the same release by him on a different label under a different name??
Guest micksmith Posted August 12, 2004 Posted August 12, 2004 Not gonna keep harping on about this but......there is yet another royal esquires for sale on Ebay by the same Las Vegas source. ALL I CAN SAY IS MY COPY WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO BE FOUND EX IAN CLARKS COPY. SO I KNOW IT'S A TRUE ORIGINAL-SO LET'S DROP THIS BORING TOPIC.
Guest micksmith Posted August 12, 2004 Posted August 12, 2004 JUST TO ADD I WILL STILL PLAY IT AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE-IT TOOK ME NEARLY 20 YEARS TO GET IT.
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