Classic Soul Hard To Find Demo's

[Guest Dante]

Here's a few that were close at hand:

That Flying Dutchman one looks great. How much did it cost you? if you don't mind me asking...

[Mark Bicknell]

Cool as Ice and very sexy, all one sided Demo's except Your Number 1 b/w Make Your Move.

[Mark Bicknell]

Oh and here's one for the Yank on Ebay trying to sell an Issue for $5000 lol well this must be worth $8000 then, on a more serious note two stunning sides here and also came out on Brunswick of course.

[pikeys dog]

That Flying Dutchman one looks great. How much did it cost you? if you don't mind me asking...

I want to say £7, if not that it was no more than £10

[Guest Dante]

I want to say £7, if not that it was no more than £10

Thanks

[Mark Bicknell]

Another bunch of demo's from me here, not a lot between some of these and stock copies in terms of rarity reckon the Tony Hestor, Casinos, Intros, William Hunt, Jimmy Gilford, Rose St.John and Jay Lyle are pretty tuff infact I can't remember if I've ever seen a Jay Lyle issue? also a bit of colour with the Atlantic, Curtom and King demo's here lol

[Guest]

Hi Dave

Guessing that we've all been looking for them over the years.

As far as I'm aware the U.S.A. Thumb A Ride Capitol DEMO doesn't exist.

Another that doesn't exist "Out On The Floor" CHARGER DEMO.

Quite correct Roger .

I spent years after obtaining my first issue searching for one , and then found it was one of the Capitol Demos that do not

exist .

Malc

[Jerry Hipkiss]

In fact I can't remember if I've ever seen a Jay Lyle issue?

You mind-reader Bicknell, I was going to contribute that to this thread having recently had the very same discussion at Gloucester niter. Issue scan anyone?

[Mark Bicknell]

You mind-reader Bicknell, I was going to contribute that to this thread having recently had the very same discussion at Gloucester niter. Issue scan anyone?

Just had a look on Popsike and there are just two demo's showing on there, pretty tuff record to find me thinks even on a demo, certainly two great sides.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Mark Bicknell

[sid jones]

hi mark

had the pinky red issue of jay lyle

sold it to dave hall for 70 quid about 7yrs ago

sid

[Platters 81]

Think this is pretty rare on demo..........

[Dave Moore]

Anyone ever seen a W/Demo of:

Joey Dee and The Starlighters - How Can I Forget - Caneil

Regards,

Dave

[dthedrug]

HI ALL, THIS IS THE STUFF! RARE UP TEMPO SOUL, GREAT SCANS, I WILL PUT 3 CLASSICS, FROM THE SCENE HAVE NOT A CLUE WHAT THE VALUE IS TODAY, BUT YOU CAN BET THE 3 WERE UNDER A TENNER THE RANWOOD DJ COPY USED TO BE QUITE HARD? ANY INFO AS TO PRICE AND RARITY, THEY ARE FROM MY COLLECTION SO THEY ARE NOT FOR SALE, I WOULD RATHER EAT DIRT M THAN SELL ME JEWELS, DAVE

[45cellar]

Took me a while to find this one.

[Guest Awake 502]

[Dazdakin]

LOL!! now your just showing off..............kin nice though.

The best i seen on here so far reading through this thread is the Inez & Charlie Fox "Tightrope" just love this tune to bits.

Anybody put up a Leon Haywood "Reconsider" promo???..............rare as hens teeth is this also Tony Clarke "Landslide" Chess promo and me thinks the hardest one to get hold of these days has just got to be Eddie Parker's "Love You Baby" Ashford promo..........

[Mark Bicknell]

LOL!! now your just showing off..............kin nice though.

The best i seen on here so far reading through this thread is the Inez & Charlie Fox "Tightrope" just love this tune to bits.

Anybody put up a Leon Haywood "Reconsider" promo???..............rare as hens teeth is this also Tony Clarke "Landslide" Chess promo and me thinks the hardest one to get hold of these days has just got to be Eddie Parker's "Love You Baby" Ashford promo..........

Post away then Daz lol had the Leon Haywood demo, might be rare but you try selling one, Tony Clarke is tuff.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Dazdakin]

No not got one for sale Mark, i had a copy on demo BITD when things was a little cheaper where vinyl is concerned (£6.00 off of Rob Wigley) Just know it to be a real rare one as far as demos go.

talking of demo's anyone ever seen demo's of any swirl patten Ric-Tic's as in Al Kent - Way You Been Acting Lately??

[Guest in town Mikey]

A couple of years ago, Simon (Hippo not Gerry hippo) I think, wrote an excellent post about Demo's. So good I saved it to a word file. I thought it might sit well in this thread again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WDs (Ducky & G'S) are WDs for the simple reasons that the label is cheaper,

quicker and easier to produce than a multi-coloured one, in the early to

mid sixties. At this stage the record is only being produced in small

numbers to promote / demonstrate / audition the song usually by giving them

to DJs to play on the radio stations. Therefore, it is all expenditure, and

saving a couple of cents per unit is worth the while. If it was a success

the record would be issued, and probably produced in runs of 500 plus, in

the label's standard coloured format. Hence the reason why sometimes, some

demos are rarer and more expensive

There are sometimes a "test press" of a record (Shufflers) kicking around

which is one or two discs pressed just to check that the lacquer is OK

However, with the big successful labels like RCA, Columbia, I think they

just automatically ran off a load of demos and issues in anticipation of a

hit! Those that weren't became our "Northern Soul" and in these cases, the

issues seem to be "rarer" than the demos (Jimmy Fraser). This could be

because the demos had been distributed more widely before the plug was

pulled on the song, and the issues just sat in a warehouse before being

destroyed to make some more room.

If you lift up you box of records and see how heavy 300 records are, you

realise why it was cheaper to send a real-to-real tape or lacquer to LA,

NY, etc, rather than press the records up in say, Detroit and mail them

out. Hence you may find different label designs (Jimmy Ruffin) and styrene

on the West coast, vinyl on the East, but not exclusively.

In the 60's they seemed to like to have two tracks on a disc, I suppose

that if the DJ/public didn't like the 'plug' side they might like the

other! If they didn't have two songs, you might find the WD is either one

sided, or has a "filler" on the B - check out Stanley Mitchell's 'Get it'!

Although LPs were being produced from the mid 60's in stereo, you don't

really see stereo singles until to early 70's. I presume radio stations had

better equipment and those broadcasting in FM could broadcast in stereo,

but the choice between mono and stereo had to be still available. It is

interesting that some companies (Atlantic) started to distinguish between

the sides by putting a coloured label on the stereo side leaving the mono

side a traditional white so as not to confuse the older DJs!

This has also led to the rarity of some 70's sounds as they are only

available on the issue as the non-plug side as all those buying Ujima

demo's have found out the hard way!

As for differences between demo and issued track, I don't think there are

any if they've got the same catalogue number as they'll be pressed of the

same lacquer. There a few records that where there are two demo's of

different takes of the track, but only one went on to be issued e.g. Carl

Burnette. Also, I think there may be a few spoken intros (on one side of

the demo) missing from the issues, thank god!

[Dave Moore]

Anyone ever seen a W/Demo of:

Joey Dee and The Starlighters - How Can I Forget - Caneil

Regards,

Dave

That'll be a no then?

Let's try anotyher one then,anyone have/seen a copy of:

Lee Andrews and The Hearts - Nevertheless - Crimson Demo?

Regards,

Dave

[Wiggyflat]

I didn't realise I had that many!! Which ones are rare as demos (if any)

[Guest Awake 502]

[Guest Awake 502]

Edited March 1, 2011 by Awake 502

[45cellar]

Bought this Single Sided DEMO, Obviously missing "Let's Get A Thing Going On"

Wondering if there are DEMOs about with both sides, Vinyl or Styrene as there is a West Coast press for this.

[dthedrug]

HI ALL.... OI! OI! OI! Something incongruent has happened to the most enjoyable thread... As a primary collector of us & home made R&B, BLUES & SOUL that was released on UK labels...why have they been posted on this thread? as I had assumed that it was to high lite the elusive US Demo that is much harder to locate in comparson to the far cheaper or more easer to locate issue & various label changes... can I suggest that for a while more we keep to the US records.

it has been great seeing records that I used to own back in the 1970s, i will post a few more myself later, in particular, the Jive 5 "your a puzzle" UA, the Hesitations "I'm not built that way* KAPP, would love to have them 2 back in my box, I used to have RUBIN, Johnny Caswell, Lada Edmond Jr, Earl Wright Demos, also got some variations on a couple of DEMOS.

Also the TIM recored is nice and rare, (I have 2 mint issues)if some one has a UK trade anything sensible considered,

In the 70's the rule of thumb when buying Us records was if it was on a pale blue or a yellow label buy it, I think the chances of it being good was 75% light blue & 55% yellow, the came maroon, red. dark blue & green, you cant imagine anybody using that method these days for buying blind. "Gonna cramp your style" Junior Wells is also nice, as again in 75 it was a real rare record £££.

As for the rare UK shown, the B side of investigate is great (as you know), the Tamls Toytown G&W DEMO is i think the last hard demo to find? then again TMG 864 may be just a bit more as it's the last G&W I think if not it's the last rare G&W of Merritt,

Well done, and if some one has issues or demos of the 2 records let me know, please! great stuff Dave Kenilworth.

[Pete S]

Strange thread this because at least 50% of the records posted up, although they are certainly lovely to look at, aren't rare at all. I won't name titles, it's plainly obvious. Unlike the stock copy threads, there were some seriously rare items posted up on that one.

Got this one this morning, second one I've had, JM auctioned one a couple of years back, don't know what it went for but it's certainly a tough one.

[Rick Cooper]

A couple of years ago, Simon (Hippo not Gerry hippo) I think, wrote an excellent post about Demo's. So good I saved it to a word file. I thought it might sit well in this thread again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WDs (Ducky & G'S) are WDs for the simple reasons that the label is cheaper,

quicker and easier to produce than a multi-coloured one, in the early to

mid sixties. At this stage the record is only being produced in small

numbers to promote / demonstrate / audition the song usually by giving them

to DJs to play on the radio stations. Therefore, it is all expenditure, and

saving a couple of cents per unit is worth the while. If it was a success

the record would be issued, and probably produced in runs of 500 plus, in

the label's standard coloured format. Hence the reason why sometimes, some

demos are rarer and more expensive

This theory that many singles were only issued as demos gets repeated time and time again but I just can't see it . To make a record a label signs up an artist , finds some songs , books a studio, hires musicians ,producer and arranger, gets the tape mixed and mastered all at great upfront cost and then after all that only presses a few hundred demos just does'nt make sense. The cost of pressing a couple of thousand copies wouldn't be much compared to the other costs so to press only 500 would only save a tiny amount.

If a label did actually only press a few demos what would happen if it got played on the radio or TV. Next day the shops would get asked for it but to then wait for the pressings to be done would kill the record. When youre 16 you can't wait but buy something else. The record had to be in the shops or at the local distributor when the radio had it.

Some records may have been pressed in small quantities. The High School Buddies club together, record a couple of songs in the back of a record shop but this is to sell at gigs and maybe interest a proper label. These wouldn't be demos they were made to sell not give away.

The reason some issues are almost impossible to find could be that they managed to sell the initial run but didn't take off and so weren't re-pressed. I know the notion that rare records may have actually sold at the time upsets another NS theory that the records all bombed but stranger things happen. Also most labels took unsold stock back from the distributors and then may have binned them. The demo copies ,being free , would not be sent back and unless it was a hit record was considered worthless.

There are some famous demo only records but these are due to exceptional circumstances such as death of the singer, getting drafted or being told by Berry Gordy that you are a songwriter not a singer.

A more realistic example of a pressing order is given on the booklet for Kents CD ''Northern Soul's Classiest Rarities Vol 1''.The Imaginations -''Strange Neighborhood'' had 3500 stock copies and 5000 demos pressed fot the initial order.

I havn't read any interviews where an artist or label owner said they only pressed 500 demos and no stock copies.

So unless someone has definate evidence, demo only issues on a large scale is complete BS.

As to white demos being done to save a few cents compared to colour labels is way out. Labels were they least of the costs and hardly worth bothering with. A white label was done to stand out and make it hard for distributors to slip a load of free records back with their returns. Smaller labels that didn't get returns could use same labels with ''Not For Sale'' overprinted on issue labels

Anyway some nice stuff put up by everyone . The ''Love Makes a Woman'' that Roger says was hard to find shows how scarce hit records on demos can be. I don't rememeber seeing top 20 US Soul singles on mint demos over the years.

Rick

[Guest VepT5]

None are too hard to find, but always nice to have as Demo's

[Guest VepT5]

A few More

[Guest VepT5]

And still more,

[Guest VepT5]

Last lot for now,

[dthedrug]

HI ALL... I TAKE PETE'S POINT ABOUT SOME OF THESE SCAN ARE NOT THAT RARE, THE REASON I LIKE THIS THREAD IS,AS I SAID IT'S A TRIP DOWN MEMORY LANE, OF THE RECORDS THAT I HAD IN MY 1st NORTHERN COLLECTION, I AM NOT SURE IF PETE MET ME AT WIGAN. BUT I FOUND SITTING IN THE BAR SELLING RECORDS, AS ONE OF LIEFS EXPERIENCES, TO SEE AND MEET PEOPLE, AND THEY THANK YOU FOR THE RECORD THEY HAVE BOUGHT, MUST COM PAIR TO THE DANCER WHO COULD DO SPINS AND BACKDROPS, IT'S NORTHERN SOUL AT IT'S BEST.:ph34r:DAVE.

[purist]

Digging through a box today I found my copy of The Gambrells " Find A Love / Jive Talk ", which I rate as a perfect example of a record that quite easy to find on issue, but darn difficult on a wdj ( only seen 2 or 3 in my lifetime)

two fabulous sides imho

[Guest in town Mikey]

Here's my hardest

[Kris Holmes]

Also the TIM recored is nice and rare, (I have 2 mint issues)if some one has a UK trade anything sensible considered,

yeah i've not seen the demo in person before but it doesn't seem to be any more expensive than the common issue. A great cheapie which you can easily nab for $10-$20 mint.

[Mark Bicknell]

yeah i've not seen the demo in person before but it doesn't seem to be any more expensive than the common issue. A great cheapie which you can easily nab for $10-$20 mint.

Several copies on Ebay at the moment but only one Demo but you are correct still only $20.00 so well worth picking up.

[Garethx]

Rick Cooper's post above instructive and I'd go along with pretty much everything he writes. One thing to bear in mind is sound quality. Motown for example would press deejay copies at much higher cost than the resulting issue. A typical order would be demos pressed at RCA on very high quality vinyl and subsequent issues pressed at ARP and Monarch for a fraction of the unit cost. I've seen comments from former Motown production staff stating that if one were collecting their product from audiophile point of view one should stick to the promo copies, adding that the ARP vinyl pressings were sonically "little better than a 78".

[Guest CapitolSC]

Heres a hard one i picked up from Pat Brady back in the 80s

Al H

[Premium Stuff]

Digging through a box today I found my copy of The Gambrells " Find A Love / Jive Talk ", which I rate as a perfect example of a record that quite easy to find on issue, but darn difficult on a wdj ( only seen 2 or 3 in my lifetime)

two fabulous sides imho

Agreed - rare on white DJ copy

Here's mine - only seen a handful of these too

Cheers

Richard

Edited March 4, 2011 by Premium Stuff

[Kris Holmes]

not real common on demo compared to issue, love the spelling & title mistakes too

[Garethx]

^

Wow. I've never seen that Lee Moses demo before. The issue copies don't include the "& The Disciples" credit either.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Rick Cooper's post above instructive and I'd go along with pretty much everything he writes. One thing to bear in mind is sound quality. Motown for example would press deejay copies at much higher cost than the resulting issue. A typical order would be demos pressed at RCA on very high quality vinyl and subsequent issues pressed at ARP and Monarch for a fraction of the unit cost. I've seen comments from former Motown production staff stating that if one were collecting their product from audiophile point of view one should stick to the promo copies, adding that the ARP vinyl pressings were sonically "little better than a 78".

Wow. Sensational stuff Gareth. I never realised that Motown compromised on the quality of their vinyl. But now you've mentioned it, Berry Gordy was designing his mixes so that they'd sound great coming out of tiny Japanese transistor radio speakers, which were obviously shit. This was the main reason why the drums, bass, strings, tambourines and vocals were always to the front of the final Motown mixes - so they'd still sound great coming out of HORRIBLE tiny Jap transistor radio speakers. Also there was no higher quality FM radio at the time, so maybe it just didn't make any sense to pay a higher price for quality pressings? We already know that Berry Gordy Jr was a smart businessman, so it makes perfect sense really.

A brilliant piece of insight mate.

I can instantly see Berry Gordy realising that there was no sense in worrying about the quality of the 60's and 70's 45 commercial pressings. For sure, Motown internal staff required the best quality pressings to guage the appeal of the release. However, once that had been decided I bet Berry did some quick calculations and saved himself $200,000 on every hit.

Naturally the engineers hated that approach but, let's face it, would any of 'em have dared to argue with Berry Gordy Jr? Plus he was paying 'em too, which generally demands a certain level of compliance.

This is the kind of stuff which none of the air-brushed accounts would ever think about. I guess that's why we're discussing it now..............

Ian D

[dthedrug]

HI ALL As I am skint, I would be happy to swap 2 mint issues of TIM, plus another record if any dealer picks up the DEMO.

Also i am going to start a thread of UK stuff that is in my collection, however would you want it in yours??? take a gander from about 4am you will soon get the gist, Also iI think this is an excellent thread, and i appreciate the collectors who have shared some wonderful examples of rare soul, I have tried to put a few of mine in but i don't think i have many more that fall into this category I use to have Moses Smith and the Fuller Bros DEMOS DAVE KIL

[Mark Bicknell]

HI ALL As I am skint, I would be happy to swap 2 mint issues of TIM, plus another record if any dealer picks up the DEMO.

Also i am going to start a thread of UK stuff that is in my collection, however would you want it in yours??? take a gander from about 4am you will soon get the gist, Also iI think this is an excellent thread, and i appreciate the collectors who have shared some wonderful examples of rare soul, I have tried to put a few of mine in but i don't think i have many more that fall into this category I use to have Moses Smith and the Fuller Bros DEMOS DAVE KIL

Dave, there is a Tim Demo on Ebay right now for $20.00 mate, tuff when your skint but maybe worth a look pal.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Kris Holmes]

yep, from Craig Moerer $20, good deal, I don't need it since I am happy with the issue but someone into demos really needs to cop it.

[dthedrug]

Mark cheers for the info, however I was on the case about 5am , I found a few issue copy's, but after 1 hour gave up on the demo, it must off ended, I can do with out it. a Superiors "what would i do" Verve Demo, gonna put up a few sales later Dave

[Dave Thorley]

[Dave Thorley]

[Dave Thorley]

[purist]

I love the Willie Tee 45, and we would all agree it's really hard on a wdj, but is it correct that the red issue is the rarer, as I remember seeing written on a dealer list years ago ?

( At the time it broke I seem to remember discussing it with one of the DJ's... might have been Pat or Ian Clark?... and it was something like " There's 4 copies, 3 wdj's and one issue", so perhaps that's where the idea started? Popsike shows 2 issues and one wdj ( although there's several wdj looky-likeys whch I guess are emidiscs/carvers?)

I just wondered what folk think? Either way, it's one of my most favourite tracks of all time and always puts a smile on my face !