Babe Ruth Elusive

[Ady Croasdell]

Apart from being nearly two minutes longer, the US appears to be a different vocal take to the UK one. I'd even heard a theory that there were two different female singers with the group and there's an outside possibilty they may be different on these.

Does anyone remember who played it first and more importantly from what, US or UK single or LP track? I think the UK single was released due to Northern demand, can anyone concur?

Ady

[Davetay]

Apart from being nearly two minutes longer, the US appears to be a different vocal take to the UK one. I'd even heard a theory that there were two different female singers with the group and there's an outside possibilty they may be different on these.

Does anyone remember who played it first and more importantly from what, US or UK single or LP track? I think the UK single was released due to Northern demand, can anyone concur?

Ady

Pretty sure you are right about the UK release due to northern demand.

I think I 1st heard it at Cleethorpes Piper and sure who played it.

I was under the impression at the time it was a european release? a rock band of something.

Edited February 11, 2011 by davetay

[grant]

l concur!!

Came out on Capital l think and rumour has it that the lead singer was the same lead singer as in Liquid Gold-Dance Yourself Dizzy...

you may be correct there mate! Ellie Hope being the connection......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babe_Ruth_(band)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_gold

[Guest Imogen]

Hi Ady , Elusive originaly came out on the album 'Stealin Home' 6.40 cut originally played by New York Disco DJ'S Tony Smith and Phil Gill in October 1975. It might have had a 45 release simply because it was a massive underground disco hit in America.

[Ady Croasdell]

Pretty sure you are right about the UK release due to northern demand.

I think I 1st heard it at Cleethorpes Piper and sure who played it.

I was under the impression at the time it was a european release? a rock band of something.

'Appen Mr Manship or Andy Rix'll remember the sequence of events then; ie what format it was first spun from (and made big from)

Ta to y'all

Ady

[Harry Crosby]

Hi Ady , Elusive originaly came out on the album 'Stealin Home' 6.40 cut originally played by New York Disco DJ'S Tony Smith and Phil Gill in October 1975. It might have had a 45 release simply because it was a massive underground disco hit in America.

just played the lp track, made my ears bleed, dunnit go on & on

[Guest]

just played the lp track, made my ears bleed, dunnit go on & on

Play it at 45 RPM instead of 33 RPM Harry ....... the agony will end sooner

Malc

[Ady Croasdell]

Hi Ady , Elusive originaly came out on the album 'Stealin Home' 6.40 cut originally played by New York Disco DJ'S Tony Smith and Phil Gill in October 1975. It might have had a 45 release simply because it was a massive underground disco hit in America.

Thanks Imogen, I had no idea it was big in the US, they did used to pick up on odd UK records like Camberwick Green. That would explain the US 45 release but I'm sure Northern DJs also broke it here, whether after the US lead or before I'm not certain.

Ady

[Ady Croasdell]

Play it at 45 RPM instead of 33 RPM Harry ....... the agony will end sooner

Malc

Yes I think the UK tape editors did everyone a favour, I like it but not for too long.

[Prophonics 2029]

Hi Ady, thought I had a UK 7 but I have a US demo copy at 6.02 and 5.02( A-B side) long Disco Capitol 1975.

I will send a sound clip if this helps. Tony

Its in an email.

I had a copy in 77 so must have got it from local plays or even from Mr M,s

See what you mean

Edited February 11, 2011 by Prophonics 2029

[Ady Croasdell]

Hi Ady, thought I had a UK 7 but I have a US demo copy at 6.02 and 5.02( A-B side) long Disco Capitol 1975.

I will send a sound clip if this helps. Tony

Its in an email.

I had a copy in 77 so must have got it from local plays or even from Mr M,s

I have one of those I actually need the UK copy, perhaps Val Chunky will oblige, he put it on Refo Soul but it's not easy to compare accurately from there.

Ta again

Ady

[Guest miff]

Hi Ady, thought I had a UK 7 but I have a US demo copy at 6.02 and 5.02( A-B side) long Disco Capitol 1975.

I will send a sound clip if this helps. Tony

Its in an email.

I had a copy in 77 so must have got it from local plays or even from Mr M,s

Mines the same heres the short 5:02 side, and I love it it was massive here in Cleethorpes

babe ruth - elusive - us capitol demo

[Guest Matt Male]

Always liked this, reminds me of late Wigan. I know it has it's critics. It just goes to show that literally anything is northern if it sounds right.

I always thought Jenny Haan was German, but she was born in Middlesex apparently.

[Guest Matt Male]

l concur!!

Came out on Capital l think and rumour has it that the lead singer was the same lead singer as in Liquid Gold-Dance Yourself Dizzy...

Jenny Haan is the female vocal on Elusive.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Matt Male

[Guest]

short one.

babe ruth - elusive - capitol

[Godzilla]

[Mister Fish]

Hi Ady, I got a UK one you can have here in London. Steve

[Guest]

'Appen Mr Manship or Andy Rix'll remember the sequence of events then; ie what format it was first spun from (and made big from)

Ta to y'all

Ady

Ady

Long time ago, but the sequence of events as I recall were Kev Roberts came back from new York circa 1975 and told Jack Bollington his partner at the time (record haven) about the Babe Ruth "stealing home" lp track gettin club plays in the USA. With days I had a copy of the Lp and was soon playing it at Cleethorpes Peir off the Lp and fading it out just before the long guitar solo. It was of course an instant monster. Which spawned the 45 release with 12 months both sides of the Atlantic.

Edited February 16, 2011 by john manship

[dthedrug]

Hi Ady If you need a copy I will be with Mick Smith tomorrow at WOLVES RECORD FAIR 9 till 4, and I can give him a copy of the UK ISSUE, not the DEMO as they are quite rare these days and my copy is in my collection, let me no if you have been sorted if possible by 10 am,

AS ALWAYS DAVE

[pikeys dog]

wrong info.

Edited February 12, 2011 by pikeys dog

[Stuart Bower]

Seem to remember it (Elusive) was quite popular at Cleethorpes..

[Ady Croasdell]

Thanks John and everyone else, I'm covered for the single now thanks. If you compare the US and UK singles John, they've edited the intro too and it sounds like a different vocal take.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Long time ago, but the sequence of events as I recall were Kev Roberts came back from new York circa 1975 and told Jack Bolington his partner at the time (record haven) about the BAbe Ruth "stealing home" lp track gettin club plays in the USA. With days I had a copy of the Lp and was playing it at Cleethorpes Peir off the Lp and fading it out just before the long guitar solo. It was of course an instant monster. Which spawned the 45 relea with 12 months bot sides of the Atlantic.

Yep, first time I heard it was when John played it off the LP at Cleethorpes. I seem to remember U.S. 7" copies coming over quite soon after that which spread the record everywhere very quickly. I even dimly seem to remember that it may have been covered up as "Trying To Find You" since the name Babe Ruth didn't sound too sexy next to the regular stuff.

Babe Ruth had another popular underground track in the U.S. clubs with "The Mexican". which was first championed on the early Hip-Hop scene by Kool Herc and Grandmaster Flash and was even bootlegged for 'the Breaks' crowd. The Bombers did a Disco cover version on West End records which is the better-known version these days. Apparently they're still performing - they even played a tour of Canada last year:-

Babe Ruth

Ian D

Edited February 12, 2011 by Ian Dewhirst

[Val (Chunky)]

Here's a picture of my U.S. demo that states that it was recorded in England

[The Tempest]

Great record and has a firm place in my Lp collection , youth memories of the floor at Notts Oddfellows shuffling along rammed to the corners , brill !!

[Guest Bogue]

Know this is pretty much done & dusted But on reading through I had a feeling that my US promo was different to the one pictured...it was issue coloured promo being the main difference...so I whipped it out. & looking at the issue number on it I would guess that it indicates that it preceeds the white one. Has no Engish link written on it either...so I would think that says it almost certainly had a US 45 release just on the strength of the disco action over there?

5:02 mix both sides by the way.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Bogue

[Pete S]

US version is totally different and as you suspected Ady, has a completely different vocalist, I heard that immediately after I once bought a US demo. Don't know why this gets slagged off so much, it was a great record to dance to, it was still being played into 1976. File alongside "Cats Eyes" by Life.

[dthedrug]

PETE HOW FAR AWAY IS JOHN MILES FROM BABE RUTH ,, WHEN FILED ON A SHELF. IN INCHES PLEASE? DAVE

[Ady Croasdell]

This one just gets sillier.

It was actually Val's US 3.20 version I was comparing to the 5.02 version I've got and thought it was the same singer with a different take. Is the UK one different from that too? Could anybody put it up in Refo Soul please and maybe a scan too?

Bogue my US issue looks the same as yours except it doesn't have DISCO on it. It looks like Val's 3.20 one may have come out after the UK interest and release.

Rats I've just noticed mine has the same 4219 catalogue number as Val's but is the longer version!

HELP

[Prophonics 2029]

What's the SPRO number 8276 and 8319 on the UK.

[Ady Croasdell]

What's the SPRO number 8276 and 8319 on the UK.

Eh?

The UK number is totally different

Ady

[Andy Rix]

As I recall this was indeed first played at Cleethorpes, as described by Mr Manship, and was covered-up as 'Tried to find him' credited to Ruth Brown ...

When it was released in the UK as a 7" single, and please give me some dispensation for my age, i think the UK release album had been long deleted. At the time I worked in a Record Shop

and the release, i'm sure, was announced in the trade mag 'Music Week' ... now my memory tells me that there was some sort of contractual problem, or argument, with the group that made a straight release of the track problematic and therefore Capitol decided to just record a new version in order to 'cash in' on the demand

Now there is a slight possibility that i might still have the press clipping from Music Week .. I'll look through my stuff

Regards

Andy

[Ian Dewhirst]

As I recall this was indeed first played at Cleethorpes, as described by Mr Manship, and was covered-up as 'Tried to find him' credited to Ruth Brown ...

Regards

Andy

Yep, that's right. My brain can't be that defective then although the c/u title would be more likely to be "Trying To Find You" surely?. Ruth Brown is bang on the money though.........

Ian D

[Dave Thorley]

I don't know if this helps, lead vocalist was originally Janita (Jenny) Hann. By the time of the sucess in the U.S. and U.K., she had left the band and the new lead vocalist ?, was used for the re-recording of the track. The group originated from Hatfield, Herts.

Jenny now spends time in the U.S. and has rejoined the group and they have had recent albums. Below is a photo of her in the 70's

[Ady Croasdell]

That was the conclusion I came to Dave and Andy, where is it documented so that I can state it as fact?

The instrumental track is remarkably similar, especially the guitar solo, I reckon they re-cut the vocal only and did a different mix.

[Dave Thorley]

Now theres your problem, the group seem to be very sketchy about Jenny's leaving the band and actually stating the name of her re-placement. Here is the group home page, but it doesn't help that much. Unless you contact them for full details https://www.baberuthband.com

Edited February 16, 2011 by Dave Thorley

[Ady Croasdell]

Sketchy ain't the word, it hardly mentions Ellie being with the group, I got that from Wikipoos and T. Rounce.

[Mike]

As I recall this was indeed first played at Cleethorpes, as described by Mr Manship, and was covered-up as 'Tried to find him' credited to Ruth Brown ...

When it was released in the UK as a 7" single, and please give me some dispensation for my age, i think the UK release album had been long deleted. At the time I worked in a Record Shop

and the release, i'm sure, was announced in the trade mag 'Music Week' ... now my memory tells me that there was some sort of contractual problem, or argument, with the group that made a straight release of the track problematic and therefore Capitol decided to just record a new version in order to 'cash in' on the demand

Now there is a slight possibility that i might still have the press clipping from Music Week .. I'll look through my stuff

Regards

Andy

i've got a very faint memory of reading that the problems were something to do with the actual groups name

involving us lawyers of the estate of baseball legend babe ruth objecting to the use of the name in usa?

though i always thought they were from the north east so that memory may be out of the ballpark (groan)

[Guest]

hi people hope I can help along as regards this group the line up is as follows with a few changes on the way

janita 'jenny' haan vocals

dave hewitt bass

dick powell drums

alan shacklock guitar

ed spevock drums

steve gurl keyboards

bernie marsden guitar

ellie hope vocals

ray knott bass

progressive rock outfit formed in 1971 in hatfield hertfordshire. they were originally know as shacklock after their founder member alan shacklock but adopted the name babe ruth after the legendery american baseball player ( as if you didnt know that ) after the release of ther debut album first base. the album didint make much impression here in the uk but went gold in canada.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Sketchy ain't the word, it hardly mentions Ellie being with the group, I got that from Wikipoos and T. Rounce.

This whole UK re-recording thing has kinda thrown me. I've nothing to compare it to other than "Elusive", which I've got both on U.K. and U.S. promos, but sadly, nothing else by 'em. I actually met Steve Rowland, the producer, at a Lonnie Liston-Smith gig at the Orange in the 90's and had a great conversation with him. He produced one of my favourite pop records, "Central Park Arrest" by Thunderthighs, a sort of very accomplished, wall-of-soundy, Phil Spector pastiche by a UK studio group. It was like the Ronettes on acid. Great record.

In fact, here it is:-

"Central Park Arrest" - Thunderthighs UK Phillips 1974

Wow! How about that ay? What a f*ckin' REKID!

I wish I'd realised at the time that he'd produced "Elusive"! That wouldv'e been an extra 20 minutes conversation LOL.........

I'll try and track him down and ask him what the deal was. Also, I'll ask my colleague, Val, 'cos he's pretty good on this stuff too and this will be right up his street LOL....

Ian D

[macca]

I have extremely fond memories of this record. 1976. excitement, the tingling scalp etc. the floor reaction to it was monumental, and as Pete says, a great record to dance to, so much so that I used to watch a particular lass dance to it from the balcony at st.ives and get mesmerised in the process. marvellous. so which is the better vocal then? the youtube track posted by 'banyera' identifies it as by 'the great jenny hann'. if that's true it's a stronger vocal (in my opinion) than the one in the clip directly under it, which must be the ellie hope version? Don't we just love these conundrums.

M

p.s. Malc and Sonbert might not like it, but it's as Northern as David & the Giants in my book...

[Ian Dewhirst]

I have extremely fond memories of this record. 1976. excitement, the tingling scalp etc. the floor reaction to it was monumental, and as Pete says, a great record to dance to, so much so that I used to watch a particular lass dance to it from the balcony at st.ives and get mesmerised in the process. marvellous. so which is the better vocal then? the youtube track posted by 'banyera' identifies it as by 'the great jenny hann'. if that's true it's a stronger vocal (in my opinion) than the one in the clip directly under it, which must be the ellie hope version? Don't we just love these conundrums.

M

p.s. Malc and Sonbert might not like it, but it's as Northern as David & the Giants in my book...

Yep. Of course it is. Occasionally even I can get a bit puritanical about records but when it comes down to it I was brought up with all the Motown stuff plus a lot of UK only hits like "Baby Now That I Found You" and "Build Me Up Buttercup" - The Foundations, "I Feel Love Comin' On" - Felice Taylor, "Sweet Inspiration" - Johnny Johnson & The Bandwagon and UK produced Northern hits like "A Man Like Me" - Jimmy James, "What Love Brings" - Kenny Bernard, "Serving A Sentence Of Life" - Carl Douglas, "Our Love Is Getting Stronger" - Jason Knight, "Everything's Gonna Be Alright" - P.P. Arnold, "Stop What You're Doing" - The Playthings and numerous others.

The Northern Soul audience in the mid 70's just loved an irrestible beat, a great song and a vocal with conviction and "Elusive" is simply another fine record in that tradition. It was the biggest record in the country at it's height and rightly so. Still a fantastic performance and I'm glad we were right on it! We generally got the best of the most 'soulful' records throughout most genres in my opinion.

I mean, Babe Ruth never saw a Northern Soul classic in a zillion years and neither did we at the time...........

Ian D

[Prophonics 2029]

Quiet a strange twist to this thread now!, makes me think can I trust my ears and what version did I first dance too.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Quiet a strange twist to this thread now!, makes me think can I trust my ears and what version did I first dance too.

Yeah, weird ay?

Since I never played it off the original LP because the U.S. 7" copies came in immediately, I never really thought about it. I presume that the original album version is different from the 7" versions?

Great thread though innit? I mean, this is what we live for.........................

Ian D

[Cheapsiderecords]

For an album that went gold in Canada there aint many of them about!! I have had the Canadian issue 45 4 or 5 times but have never even played it

Edited February 17, 2011 by newer

[Sebastian]

If it's of any help, here's the info that can be found in Vernon Joynson's book "Tapestry Of Delights":

Personnel:

DICK POWELL - drms - A

JANITA 'JENNY' HAAN - vcls - A B C D

DAVE HEWITT - bs - A B C D

DAVE PUNSHON - keyb'ds - A B

ALAN SHACKLOCK - gtr - A

CHRIS HOLMES - keyb'ds - B

ED SPEVOCK - drms - B C D E

STEVE GURL - keyb'ds - C D E

BERNIE MARSDEN - gtr - D E

ELLIE HOPE - vcls - E

RAY KNOTT - bs - E

ALBUMS:

1 ( A ) | FIRST BASE (Harvest SHSP 4022) 1972 SC

2 ( B ) | AMAR CABALLERO (Harvest SHVL 812) 1973 SC

3 ( C ) | BABE RUTH (Harvest SHSP 4038) 1975 SC

4 ( D ) | STEALIN' HOME (Capitol 11451) 1975

5 ( E ) | KID'S STUFF (Capitol 23739) 1976

6 ( - ) | BEST OF (Harvest SHSM 2019) 1977

NB: (1) reissued on CD with both sides of their first 45 (Repertoire REP 4554-WP) 1995. (1) and (2) reissued as a 2-on-1 CD (BGOCD 382) 1998. (3) and (4) reissued on one CD (BGOCD 491) 2000. (1), (2) and (3) also reissued on CD in Japan. (1) and (3) reissued in the USA. Also of note is the 1994 compilation, supervised by Alan S. himself, Grand Slam, (Harvest CZ-538), which provides a fairly definitive overview of albums (1)-(3).

45s:

Wells Fargo/Few Dollars More (Harvest HAR 5061) 1972

Ain't That Livin'/We Are Holding On (Harvest HAR 5072) 1973

If Heaven's On Beauty's Side/Doctor Love (Harvest HAR 5082) 1974

Wells Fargo/Mexican (Harvest HAR 5087) 1974

Private Number/Somebody's Nobody (Harvest HAR 5090) 1975

The Duchess Of New Orleans/The Jack O Lantern/Tyrquoise (Harvest SPSR 377) 1976

Elusive/Say No More (Capitol CL 15689) 1976

This progressive rock outfit formed in 1971 in Hatfield, Hertfordshire. They were originally known as Shacklock after their founder member Alan Shacklock (ex-Juniors), but adopted the name Babe Ruth after the legendary American baseball player after the release of their debut album. The album didn't make much impression here in the UK but went gold in Canada.

Ed Spevock (ex-Pete Brown's Piblokto) and Chris Holmes (ex-Timebox) both joined the group for their second album.

Steve Gurl, formerly of Wild Turkey, was added to the line-up shortly prior to the release of their third album which climbed to No 75 in the US Charts. The band was now under considerable demand to tour the US but these demands gradually brought about their demise. Firstly, their founder Alan Shacklock left to be replaced by Bernie Marsden (who was also formerly with Wild Turkey and UFO), and then after the Stealin' Home album had met with some success here in the UK both Jenny Haan and Dave Hewitt left in short succession. Ray Knott and Ellie Hope, who'd played with an obscure girl group Ellie, were enlisted in their place and this line-up recorded Kid's Stuff, which proved to be their final album, aside from the obligatory Best Of compilation. Finally Alan Ross replaced Bernie Marsden just before the band split in '76.

After their demise Bernie Marsden went on to play for Whitesnake; Janita 'Jenny' Haan formed her own band, Jenny Haan's Lion; and both Ray Knott and Ellie Hope were in Liquid Gold in the late 70s. Ellie Hope also later recorded a solo single.

Janita 'Jenny' Haan also sang on Strider's 1974 album, Misunderstanding.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Sebastian

[Guest]

If it's of any help, here's the info that can be found in Vernon Joynson's book "Tapestry Of Delights":

Personnel:

DICK POWELL - drms - A

JANITA 'JENNY' HAAN - vcls - A B C D

DAVE HEWITT - bs - A B C D

DAVE PUNSHON - keyb'ds - A B

ALAN SHACKLOCK - gtr - A

CHRIS HOLMES - keyb'ds - B

ED SPEVOCK - drms - B C D E

STEVE GURL - keyb'ds - C D E

BERNIE MARSDEN - gtr - D E

ELLIE HOPE - vcls - E

RAY KNOTT - bs - E

ALBUMS:

1 ( A ) | FIRST BASE (Harvest SHSP 4022) 1972 SC

2 ( B ) | AMAR CABALLERO (Harvest SHVL 812) 1973 SC

3 ( C ) | BABE RUTH (Harvest SHSP 4038) 1975 SC

4 ( D ) | STEALIN' HOME (Capitol 11451) 1975

5 ( E ) | KID'S STUFF (Capitol 23739) 1976

6 ( - ) | BEST OF (Harvest SHSM 2019) 1977

NB: (1) reissued on CD with both sides of their first 45 (Repertoire REP 4554-WP) 1995. (1) and (2) reissued as a 2-on-1 CD (BGOCD 382) 1998. (3) and (4) reissued on one CD (BGOCD 491) 2000. (1), (2) and (3) also reissued on CD in Japan. (1) and (3) reissued in the USA. Also of note is the 1994 compilation, supervised by Alan S. himself, Grand Slam, (Harvest CZ-538), which provides a fairly definitive overview of albums (1)-(3).

45s:

Wells Fargo/Few Dollars More (Harvest HAR 5061) 1972

Ain't That Livin'/We Are Holding On (Harvest HAR 5072) 1973

If Heaven's On Beauty's Side/Doctor Love (Harvest HAR 5082) 1974

Wells Fargo/Mexican (Harvest HAR 5087) 1974

Private Number/Somebody's Nobody (Harvest HAR 5090) 1975

The Duchess Of New Orleans/The Jack O Lantern/Tyrquoise (Harvest SPSR 377) 1976

Elusive/Say No More (Capitol CL 15689) 1976

This progressive rock outfit formed in 1971 in Hatfield, Hertfordshire. They were originally known as Shacklock after their founder member Alan Shacklock (ex-Juniors), but adopted the name Babe Ruth after the legendary American baseball player after the release of their debut album. The album didn't make much impression here in the UK but went gold in Canada.

Ed Spevock (ex-Pete Brown's Piblokto) and Chris Holmes (ex-Timebox) both joined the group for their second album.

Steve Gurl, formerly of Wild Turkey, was added to the line-up shortly prior to the release of their third album which climbed to No 75 in the US Charts. The band was now under considerable demand to tour the US but these demands gradually brought about their demise. Firstly, their founder Alan Shacklock left to be replaced by Bernie Marsden (who was also formerly with Wild Turkey and UFO), and then after the Stealin' Home album had met with some success here in the UK both Jenny Haan and Dave Hewitt left in short succession. Ray Knott and Ellie Hope, who'd played with an obscure girl group Ellie, were enlisted in their place and this line-up recorded Kid's Stuff, which proved to be their final album, aside from the obligatory Best Of compilation. Finally Alan Ross replaced Bernie Marsden just before the band split in '76.

After their demise Bernie Marsden went on to play for Whitesnake; Janita 'Jenny' Haan formed her own band, Jenny Haan's Lion; and both Ray Knott and Ellie Hope were in Liquid Gold in the late 70s. Ellie Hope also later recorded a solo single.

Janita 'Jenny' Haan also sang on Strider's 1974 album, Misunderstanding.

That's where I got my info from its a very good book

[Northern Soul Uk]

So does anyone know who the replacement vocalist was?

[Ringleader]

Ellie Hope is the singer on the UK 45  

[Chas]

A superb track and a contradiction in terms,never was 'elusive',goes to show they don't all have to be,imagine if it was though!.