Why Did The The Casino Survive Through The 70's

[Guest pendulum]

When the torch all-nighter closed and other places were folding I ventured to the casino on its opening night.Living in Middleton it was only a short train ride from Victoria station.Before I left a guy I knew from the Pendulum came up and said "this place won't last six months mate the coppers will close it down"......Which leaves me to wonder if the casino was giving kickbacks to the plods

[Ian Dewhirst]

When the torch all-nighter closed and other places were folding I ventured to the casino on its opening night.Living in Middleton it was only a short train ride from Victoria station.Before I left a guy I knew from the Pendulum came up and said "this place won't last six months mate the coppers will close it down"......Which leaves me to wonder if the casino was giving kickbacks to the plods

Maybe in a roundabout way but certainly at a much higher level than PC Plod. I'm sure Gerry Marshall had the council covered and was obviously an influential guy with probably the biggest venue in Wigan, so I'm sure Gerry would have had his supporters on the local council squared away.

However, Wigan Casino was FANTASTIC for Wigan as history has now proved. It's a credit that it was allowed to happen and develop the way it did so the powers of the era should be appreciated in my view. They were responsible for allowing a genuine regional youth culture to flourish and they allowed the scene to breathe at a very important time in the evolotion of it's developement.

Wigan Casino was simply another cast-iron example of the North protecting it's own culture and for that reason alone they should be applauded.

Gerry was right.

Ian D

[Suinoz]

When the torch all-nighter closed and other places were folding I ventured to the casino on its opening night.Living in Middleton it was only a short train ride from Victoria station.Before I left a guy I knew from the Pendulum came up and said "this place won't last six months mate the coppers will close it down"......Which leaves me to wonder if the casino was giving kickbacks to the plods

It was simply the best...simple as that. Kickbacks, bribes whatever. Survived 8 great years but I would have to question the excuse given to close it as ' the council wanting to extend the civic centre ' ?????? Restoration costs to bring the building up to standard would seem more like it. Only Mr. Marshall could answer that but sadly he's gone so it's just down to a guessing game. Lot's of opinions, that's just mine for what it's worth. Tony. OZ.

[Guest]

===================================================================================================================

This is a very humble comment because I know nothing of business. The truth is that Wigan Casino was a business. It's also true that young people move on. They enjoy a genre, a cult, an idea for a limited period of time and then become bored with it and seek something new. Wigan was losing its audience - not necessarily because of the product but because of the sameness of the location. Remember that youth culture is about NOT doing what those before you did....Wigan Casino was close to crossing a generation in terms of years.

Northern Soul is unique in the fact that it is probably one of the few music genres to hold onto people throughout their transition from adolescence into adulthood...and even middle and old age!!!! But realistically, it has held on to a small percentage of those who 'loved' it during its zenith.

The people (around my age - I'm 52) who use this site are probably more obsessed with the Northern Soul genre than anyone else, young or old. My point is that there was a moment in time (in reality a decade between roughly 1968-78) where the imagination of a small number of young people was captured in a way that has not been replicated.

Mod/Rocker/Hippy/Punk/New Romantic/Hip-Hop/Body Poppers....I confess that I am ignorant of the more modern music fashions......but I know that they have come (after Northern Soul) and gone....not just gone but in some cases, disappeared completely.

Northern Soul appears to have an almost religious quality to it.....I know that sounds silly but there is an element of truth to it. What I mean is that it must have some form of pleasure trigger to it that does not cease with the end of youth and appears to be such that it can be resurrected in some that have forgotten it given the right circumstances. (me for instance!) A bit like Catholicism....believe me I know!!!!!!!!)

In another recent thread I commented that I felt a sense of pride when replying to questions about what music I liked. I feel ridiculous confirming that - but it is true. How on earth can you be 'proud' of your musical taste??????

There is a cliche that is used in Northern Soul circles 'a Way of Life' or similar which is bizarre yet true at the same time. There is something clique, clannish, exclusive, secret....I'm not sure what but for people of my generation to be discussing the genre and the detail within that genre with the passion that we do on this site is frankly strange in the extreme. What other genre of music is bickered over and dissected like ours???

It's weird and wonderful at one and the same time.

Fortunately, I am of an age where I don't have to give a shit about what anybody else thinks....and within the realms of common decency and courtesy....I don't!

We are all a bit weird though, aren't we?

But do we love it?.....Yes we do!!!!! (as the man said!)

Best

dogstoat

In respect of and as to why WC survived as long as it did , has been and will be debated until the cows come home .

As to the reason why its' doors remained open for eight years , when venues that preceded it that had a similar music policy and had an element of attendees that enjoyed a " recreational " culture , only enjoyed a short lifespan , was either due to the scene being ready for a stable base in order to develop and flourish , or because the ownership and management of WC had an " understanding " with the authorities that allowed it to continue . Perhaps it was a combination of both .

After all these years , who cares ? I certainly do not .

Malc

Edited January 14, 2011 by Malc Burton

[Colsoul]

having been to the casino within a month of opening and carried on in intervals throughout its life i remember talking my old mates in to going back again in 80/81 it was a saturday nite niter , we had done the oldies niters and enjoyed them .but this paticular nite 14 feb i remember, there was about 100 people in , i got some stick that nite of my mates,for taking them away from the local pub to a dying casino

i just wonder if it had still been as popular as in the halcion days would it have carried on for longer ?,so my answer to the topic why did it last so long is easy loads of cash every week, some into the right hands col

Edited January 14, 2011 by colsoul

[Steve L]

===================================================================================================================

This is a very humble comment because I know nothing of business. The truth is that Wigan Casino was a business. It's also true that young people move on. They enjoy a genre, a cult, an idea for a limited period of time and then become bored with it and seek something new. Wigan was losing its audience - not necessarily because of the product but because of the sameness of the location. Remember that youth culture is about NOT doing what those before you did....Wigan Casino was close to crossing a generation in terms of years.

Northern Soul is unique in the fact that it is probably one of the few music genres to hold onto people throughout their transition from adolescence into adulthood...and even middle and old age!!!! But realistically, it has held on to a small percentage of those who 'loved' it during its zenith.

The people (around my age - I'm 52) who use this site are probably more obsessed with the Northern Soul genre than anyone else, young or old. My point is that there was a moment in time (in reality a decade between roughly 1968-78) where the imagination of a small number of young people was captured in a way that has not been replicated.

Mod/Rocker/Hippy/Punk/New Romantic/Hip-Hop/Body Poppers....I confess that I am ignorant of the more modern music fashions......but I know that they have come (after Northern Soul) and gone....not just gone but in some cases, disappeared completely.

Northern Soul appears to have an almost religious quality to it.....I know that sounds silly but there is an element of truth to it. What I mean is that it must have some form of pleasure trigger to it that does not cease with the end of youth and appears to be such that it can be resurrected in some that have forgotten it given the right circumstances. (me for instance!) A bit like Catholicism....believe me I know!!!!!!!!)

In another recent thread I commented that I felt a sense of pride when replying to questions about what music I liked. I feel ridiculous confirming that - but it is true. How on earth can you be 'proud' of your musical taste??????

There is a cliche that is used in Northern Soul circles 'a Way of Life' or similar which is bizarre yet true at the same time. There is something clique, clannish, exclusive, secret....I'm not sure what but for people of my generation to be discussing the genre and the detail within that genre with the passion that we do on this site is frankly strange in the extreme. What other genre of music is bickered over and dissected like ours???

It's weird and wonderful at one and the same time.

Fortunately, I am of an age where I don't have to give a shit about what anybody else thinks....and within the realms of common decency and courtesy....I don't!

We are all a bit weird though, aren't we?

But do we love it?.....Yes we do!!!!! (as the man said!)

Best

dogstoat

Thats all well and good but why did it last 8 years without getting closed due to drug problems like other venues were?

Thats what the original question was (I think)

[Citizen P]

Thats all well and good but why did it last 8 years without getting closed due to drug problems like other venues were?

Thats what the original question was (I think)

According to the Party line, there was no drug problem at The Casino

Unless you couldn't get any.

T

[Guest gordon russell]

Thats all well and good but why did it last 8 years without getting closed due to drug problems like other venues were?

Thats what the original question was (I think)

drug problems steve?............was it hard to get them then? did supplies run out? what happened?

[TOAD]

you just needed to ask the right person

[Anais nin Carms]

Maybe it was just off the Police radar ? Do they have a large police force in Wigan , not being the best when it comes to navigation , does Wigan fall under a larger police authority that would have a drugs unit ? If so maybe they were more big city focussed at the time ? or didn't want a potential riot .... or maybe the Township welcomed any business having the club open actually brought to the town?

I reckon uncle Joe made a MInt

Usually its residents that bring down a club type establishment ... I would think ?

[macca]

Thats all well and good but why did it last 8 years without getting closed due to drug problems like other venues were?

Thats what the original question was (I think)

In his opening sentence he refers to WC as a business. Businesses can go to the wall or not depending on how much capital they plough back in and keeping 'creditors' happy. Some of those creditors were probably kept more than happy. Dogstoat doesn't actually say that in his post, but encourages us to dwell on that possibility. It's all in the word 'business' I reckon.

Edited January 14, 2011 by macca

[Guest dave nowell]

i've often asked myself the same question

everyone knew the place was riddled with drugs

why didn't plod just pile everyone into a van in the morning and shut the place down?

gerry marshall obviously had influence in high places

and the casino provided no real trouble for the police public order-wise

apart from the infamous punk night there was never any aggro

the casino even survived an inquiry after a death

i have been told that the bouncers were told to keep a lid on things and hand over pushers etc regularly to the police

if they did that the casino would be left alone as long as nothing too heavy went down

sort of figures............

Edited January 14, 2011 by dave nowell

[TOAD]

i've often asked myself the same question

everyone knew the place was riddled with drugs

why didn't plod just pile everyone into a van in the morning and shut the place down?

gerry marshall obviously had influence in high places

and the casino provided no real trouble for the police public order-wise

apart from the infamous punk night there was never any aggro

the casino even survived an inquiry after a death

i have been told that the bouncers were told to keep a lid on things and hand over pushers etc regularly to the police

if they did that the casino would be left alone as long as nothing too heavy went down

sort of figures............

one major flaw in the above.....the bouncers were reselling what they confiscated

[Guest dave nowell]

one major flaw in the above.....the bouncers were reselling what they confiscated

i'm shocked........

[TOAD]

i'm shocked........

put it another way they knew and let in the big suppliers and nothing was ever done except once in a blue moon minor amounts if the ds saw you

err how many bouncers were there not enough to keep an eye on what was happing

[spike1]

Maybe it was just off the Police radar ? Do they have a large police force in Wigan , not being the best when it comes to navigation , does Wigan fall under a larger police authority that would have a drugs unit ? If so maybe they were more big city focussed at the time ? or didn't want a potential riot .... or maybe the Township welcomed any business having the club open actually brought to the town?

Try greater Manchester police and yes they were a very keen and interested drug squad !!!!

Kin ell get real !!

I reckon uncle Joe made a MInt

Usually its residents that bring down a club type establishment ... I would think ?

[Spacehopper]

as ive said before never went ot the casino or torch,way too young and lived miles away but as i understand it wasnt the torch in a more residential area than the casino...even today its venues/pubs nthat are more residential that have problems with councils etc....and the casino was a lot bigger so a 'raid' could have been a lot more tricky?...

and in reply to dogstoats post....its great to read a post from someone so passionate as a lot of us are but to be honest i dont believe we are unique in that....

the mod/scooter scene is still very much alive, has been for over 40 years...there are weekly nights on and rallies all over the country with people who have never got out of it since the late 70s and sometimes the 60s !....hip hop may be underground but has definately not come and gone....i know people the wrong side of 40 just as obsessed with reggae as soul,will pay just as crazy amounts of money for originals too....i think the one area we do differ and can feel proud of is the distance we will travel to go to a night...not sure any other musical followers do that...certainly not weekly !...anyway thats nuffin to do with the original post so i'll shut up !

dean

[Wiggyflat]

The healthiest scooter scene was in the mid seventies and a lot got out in 79 when the mod revival appeared....it had been an ongoing movement since the sixties and people didn't like a load of plastics in parkas appearing.I still ride all over the country .........we are all a tame species now.Imagine organising a raid on the Casino with over a thousand kids..think they were too busy with local football matches and bootboys to spend time on looking at a load of kids .The local plod can't have had massive manpower.

Edited January 14, 2011 by wiggyflat

[spike1]

Why did the casino last so long? Why did it out last other soul clubs?

1973-81

Twisted wheel 1963 -71 ?

I grew up at the casino 76-80 for the first couple of years rarely missed a nighter including once a month oldies nighters (only one I missed on purpose was the filming of this England too many divs

I don't think that the people who attended allnighters put much into the local economy most used to turn up about an hour before opening most pubs were shut by then can't remember many eating a meal in a restraunt either !

The bouncers and squad were rearly harsh with the run of the mill pill heads ( roll you and sell it again after a bit of a kicking )

The main dealers must have had some kind of influence with the local council / plod otherwise they would have closed it way before they did

Perhaps as someone has said 8 years a new generation is comming through we were all getting married+kids leaving it behind (for afew years!)

So perhaps it had run it's course??

Spike....e

[TOAD]

re dealers

some wernt local to wigan more like....... nearer to where i live

yeah your bang on no local trade except the chippy lol lol

[KevH]

Thats all well and good but why did it last 8 years without getting closed due to drug problems like other venues were?

Thats what the original question was (I think)

The police had it covered..Maybe having all the 16 - 25 year old nutters in one place suited them. .

Backhanders? From the dealers?

Nowadays the Police are all ex Wigan / NS boys ,or of the same age group.So why would they spoil their mates fun?

[nrc]

Whether there was any influence on certain people i dont know. Having gone to both i would say that they both had their plus points , but Wigan with the size of the venue compared to the Torch looked more likely to last the longer. Maybe it was the fact that although there was large crowds at Wigan , there was very little trouble. Maybe the police thought, as there is not a lot of trouble at the event , any drug issues we can tackle separately. When the venue became famous and coaches started turning up from all over the country, the council maybe thought this could be good for the towns image, so although the drug problem still existed, with low levels of trouble combined with a good image for the town , maybe that s why it lasted longer.

[MrsWoodsrules]

It's is a good question from the original poster as to why the Casino never suffered the same fate as The Wheel, when I think about it now.I was stopped & searched on a few occasions by plain clothes CID, usually early morning heading back up for the train, those CID were pretty serious about what they were doing.

The local population were not all for it, I remember sitting on the wall opposite getting some fresh air early morning one time, when a very old lady slowly making her way past, turning to make a comment about 'blowing that place up' & calling it 'nothing but trouble' as she pointed, remember laughing to myself at the time being young, but I could see she was serious, I'll always remember that.

I'm sure the local economy must have had benefits, although I have to agree with earlier posters, I never really contributed to it, usually straight off the train & up to Station Rd & in. And the local chemists didn't benefit that for sure, with Riker raids in the middle of the night a very regular occurrence.

Maybe Wigan council deserve some kudos for being forward minded & helping a great youth culture to flourish or may be they were just apathetic in the 70's , who knows, may be brown envelopes were involved?

[spike1]

If you can do maths

Wigan 73-81

Wheel 63-71

???

8 years ??

[Guest pendulum]

If you can do maths

Wigan 73-81

Wheel 63-71

???

8 years ??

The Twisted Wheel before its move to Whitworth St could hardly be classified as a northern soul venue.

[Guest]

The Twisted Wheel before its move to Whitworth St could hardly be classified as a northern soul venue.

With Dave Godin coining the term NS after Whitworth Street had closed , The Twisted Wheel at that location cannot be classed as one either .

Malc

[Dave Rimmer]

Am I wrong in thinking that Wigan Council actually ended upbuying the Casnio through a CPO, and leasing it back to Gerry Marshall ?

Possibly that may have had an influence on why the Council never shut it down

[Anais nin Carms]

This is the point I am trying to make "Spike" If Wigan came /comes under Greater Manchester Police , maybe at the time the force was much more focused in other areas. like the city itself ?

I was working and living in Manchester city centre in 73 and I used to hear things on a regular basis at work about areas like "Moss side" for example getting a lot of force attention , plus there was the city centre to control.

Maybe because there wasn't any reported crimes ...they left Wigan alone ... its just a theory ... and I would have thought a reasonable one at that ? ... I really don't understand your get real remark

Edited January 16, 2011 by Carms

[Dave Rimmer]

This is the point I am trying to make "Spike" If Wigan came /comes under Greater Manchester Police , maybe at the time the force was much more focused in other areas. like the city itself ?

I was working and living in Manchester city centre in 73 and I used to hear things on a regular basis at work about areas like "Moss side" for example getting a lot of force attention , plus there was the city centre to control.

Maybe because there wasn't any reported crimes ...they left Wigan alone ... its just a theory ... and I would have thought a reasonable one at that ? ... I really don't understand your get real remark

Did Greater Manchester exist in '73, or was it all still Lancashire then ? I agree with your arguement to some degree Carmen, but I think any concentration of youths where a fairly high percentage were using drugs would attrract Police attention back then

[Anais nin Carms]

Did Greater Manchester exist in '73, or was it all still Lancashire then ? I agree with your arguement to some degree Carmen, but I think any concentration of youths where a fairly high percentage were using drugs would attrract Police attention back then

You are right Dave it was Lancashire.

I guess we will never know the answer ? Anyone that may have given or taken a back hander to keep it going won't admit to it now will they.

Lets just stress this is all assumption.... not fact BTW before anyone takes offence.

[Guest proudlove]

Funny handshakes,brown envelopes................................and when numbers dropped off it mysteriously burnt down.

2+2=5

Steve.

[Naughty Boy]

Why did the Casino survive........

simples it was in private hands . the numbers going through the doors on a regular basis made it worthwhile the aggro with the local magistrates - councillors etc . Despite what we think about about illicit substance abuse and dealing It was the 70TS ... these are the days when they would sooner see a venue over capacity breaking fire regulations etc than see loads of youngsters being left on the streets ( this happened on a good few occasions at the Pier nighters) a back hander here and there and yes all your local DS squads knew what was going on at Wigan just like they knew what was going on at every other main venue around the Uk... but by enlarge they all looked after their own turf and dealt with the locals at source.... Busting them local or en-route. If those who abused substances etc (me cough cough included ) were being candid when all things are considered the squad were not such a massive prob it was just the shit that went with that bit of turf , just like getting pulled by joe bobby in your vehicle at a young age . So other nighters in that period came and went most did not go because of a drug problem even though they had one... indeed no .....

Edited January 16, 2011 by Naughty Boy

[spike1]

Did Greater Manchester exist in '73, or was it all still Lancashire then ? I agree with your arguement to some degree Carmen, but I think any concentration of youths where a fairly high percentage were using drugs would attrract Police attention back then

Greater Manchester came into existence April 1st 1974

The get real remark was from some one who was on the receiving end of the aggressive

policy towards kids at the casino

Yes they would have had to concentrate on a daily basis on the inner city problems.

Most weekends though they put a fair amount if effort and resources trying to police the casino ie trying to use cadets to infiltrate the scene

"spike"

Yes I

[Citizen P]

If I remember correctly, the main Wigan Police Station was only down the road, more or less opposite the Baths.

Not as close as the one near The Wheel- but close enough

Tony

[Steve G]

Interesting comments, and I got searched on a number of occasions before the Niter and on my way back to the station by various members of Gtr Manchester's finest, it does make you wonder.Of course clubs paying money is nothing new.....In Russ's fictional account of the Casino there were some genuine newpaper articles from the mid 70s about the drugs problem.....so mmmmmm, sometimes thinking is dangerous.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Steve G

[nrc]

=====================================================================================================================================

Greater Manchester Police was formed in1974.....the result of an amalgamation of Manchester & Salford Forces and parts of Lancashire Constabulary. Such a process is a massive logistical exercise. So yes, they probably did have other fish to fry.

Also, there is always the paradox of the drug issue as a whole. If the Police run around arresting a lot of people for minor drugs offences then they create the drugs problem (in the mind of the public) by proving it exists. If they let sleeping dogs lie they can say '...what drugs problem'?

The main triggers for high profile Police action are violence, death or significant financial loss/acquisition. As far as I am aware, the Wigan Casino issue did not result in significant levels of any of the following:-

Violence - the Casino and its patrons did not cause any significant Public Order problems

Deaths - there were very few drugs-related deaths at or near the Casino as far as I am aware (somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that one)

Financial Loss / Gain - no major financial crime although apparenty there were trails across the country (that converged on the Greater Manchester Area) where the DDA cabinets in Chemist Shop burglaries were emptied during the evenings before All-Nighters!!! (Could just be coincidence of course!!!)

The fact that the Casino wasn't causing the Establisment any major headaches may be the simple answer to the question but....hey, who knows!!!

Best

dogstoat

Agree with you there. When kicking out time came everbody seemed to disappear like coackroaches when the light is turned on. By 08.30 place was deserted. Coaches ,cars gone. i think first train back to Manchester was about 09.45 ish. By that time people just wanted to get home and have a soak in the bath, or sink a couple of pints at midday then crawl in the charriot. Some people were too tired to speak never mind cause any commotion.

[spike1]

You mean that train to Manchester change at Bolton sprint from up and down the stairs to get the connection back to Victoria ??

Bet the locals thought we were crazy !!!

"spike"

[Guest ada73]

great read for one who was to young to go keep them coming please

[Guest]

I didn't got to the casino but every other club I went to had drugs and they lasted years. I reckon it was all to do with familiarity and popularity. People move around like the tide.. wherever it takes them. Back 'then' the choices were limited and if you found a place that assembled so many fab peeps you wouldn't want to move along to somewhere else on the next wave... if you know what I mean.

Now, we have decent cars and transport that can get us anywhere in next to no time and there are more 'nights' than you can shake a stick at... which brings us back to the dilution argument.

[spike1]

The journey there n back when I first went Wigan

Aprox 140 miles round trip

5pm bus to Manchester from chestrfield

Walkmfrom Piccadilly to Victoria

Catch bus to Wigan I think it cost 4pence to travel anywhere in greater manchester before 8pm if you were under 16 ???

Sunday morning train back to victoria

Bus from shorten street to Chesterfield think we used to get back in town about 12.30

Pubs closed at 2pm

So a quick couple of beers

Home crash out

Do

It all again next week

Things improved when we got cars and hired coaches

As the casino shut at 8am and the was above an hour before the train at first they used to open the beach comber

[spike1]

(pressed wrong button)

One morning the beachcomber flooded after that we used to go in mr m's this was late 76-early77

Just some ramblings of an old soulie

"spike"

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

every other club I went to had drugs and they lasted years

that was good quality gear

Edited January 18, 2011 by Eastbank Bootboy

[Guest martyn]

that was good quality gear

[Guest ScooterNik]

Bloody hell Wiggy, one of the lads (Bri) in that photo is in the same SC as me. He's recently posted what I think is another picture from the almost the same moment, but I think it's posed slightly differently...

[Guest ScooterNik]

There y'go!

[Guest Eastbank Bootboy]

There y'go!

nice scooters. That clobber is a bit out of order