Wigan's Chosen Few - T.o.t.p. 1974

[Agentsmith]

the wigan casino years book informs us that the footage of the dancers on top of the pops, circa 1974, no longer exists as the original tapes were erased....how very tragic...i suppose like many others, this comes as a devastating revelation or, perhaps im way behind and its old news. however it prompts me to ask the question, much in a similar fashion to the one i posed about 18 months ago, along the lines of does any old footage exist of the casino that was independantly filmed. alas, it appears that is unsolved and as such, remains a holy grail. is it possible that the dancers who appeared on the show, and we all know a good many of them, perhaps may have been presented with copies of their performance as keep sakes ( like as if anyone would have a projector in those days?!). yes, thats quite possibly an ill-concieved longshot, but its not beyond the realms of probability...or someone associated with the production, may have it stored away somewhere forgotten?. i realise the chances are miniscule, especially when it is apparent that the age of the video recorder was so tantalizingly close ( infact i think the first ones appeared in 74...correct me if im wrong).

i, like many old enough, distinctly remember watching this event played out with glowing pride....regardless of the fact, it was footsee, just watching these heroes going through the motions, they had perfected through endless dance sessions at countless all-nighters,mesmerising the cardboard cutouts who, had never seen the likes before!!......

i know steve powell is on here......perhaps, he may have, or know something we dont....if so steve, enlighten me and everyone else.

i cant wrestle with the assumption, this archive film is lost forever,...i thought something as important as this film would be set in stone for all time.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE SOMEWHERE.....

[Anoraks Corner]

Although the BBC vaults don't contain it. I thought there was a video archive up for sale the other year which included the Chosen Few TOTP performance?

There was also a thread not too long ago that confirmed there was some private Casino footage owned by someone in Worcester?

[Pete S]

I was among those who thought it had been wiped but as far as I know, the BBC still have it, they must do because a definite clip of it has been incorporated into another program and it's on youtube, from what I remember it's a slowed down (slow motion) clip and very short, but I remember commenting that it took me back instantly to that night in 1974 when it was shown.

[Agentsmith]

Although the BBC vaults don't contain it. I thought there was a video archive up for sale the other year which included the Chosen Few TOTP performance?

There was also a thread not too long ago that confirmed there was some private Casino footage owned by someone in Worcester?

dave,

i know that dave kilworth mentioned of someone he knows down south who has footage from the casino, as yet its provenance hasnt materialized, but i wouldnt doubt dave's word for a minute...its in the hands of the owner if he ever wants to go public.

i was not aware of a video archive sale, if its correct that the collection included said footage, that would appear, initially to contradict the former, but in reality there would surely, have to be more than one tape, even if the bbc believe and subsequently stated that they had erazed the tapes.

so, perhaps, they werent aware that it had already been shipped out and they have no paperwork to colloberate its release.

in which case, is it impossible to trace where it disappeared to?

[Guest taffy]

dave,

i know that dave kilworth mentioned of someone he knows down south who has footage from the casino, as yet its provenance hasnt materialized, but i wouldnt doubt dave's word for a minute...its in the hands of the owner if he ever wants to go public.

i was not aware of a video archive sale, if its correct that the collection included said footage, that would appear, initially to contradict the former, but in reality there would surely, have to be more than one tape, even if the bbc believe and subsequently stated that they had erazed the tapes.

so, perhaps, they werent aware that it had already been shipped out and they have no paperwork to colloberate its release.

in which case, is it impossible to trace where it disappeared to?

The footage Dave mentioned was filmed by my mate the night This England was filmed at the casino.It was taken on a super 8 cine camera and is about 15 mins long filmed mainly from the balcony.I'll try and track it down.

[Guest gordon russell]

two of the dancers were JETHRO in his celtic hooped sweatshirt and a black fella named PAUL DERBY......can,t remember the others..........come to think of it,not sure l want to........back in the day it was so cringeworthy........as jethro was considered to be a bit of a d****..........peggy babkock

endless dance sessions at countless all nighters!!!........don,t think so!.....clearly remember jethro coming to the CATS with his girlfriend (forget her name) all dewy eyed and naive.......not sure what was going on lol

Edited November 7, 2010 by gordon russell

[Baz Atkinson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGCklaJSF0

heres some footage of the lads just before there got all punky and supported the ramones -i tell you what these cats can play!!!

[Baz Atkinson]

first time ive seen this footage

[Baz Atkinson]

this is the same year folks -the famous soul train line dance -interesting comparison !!some top moves here !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7MiG2fe8lE

[JOHNNYBETCHA]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGCklaJSF0

heres some footage of the lads just before there got all punky and supported the ramones -i tell you what these cats can play!!!

[JOHNNYBETCHA]

if any of that crap was anything to go by i'm bloody glad the bbc has wiped it off!

[Baz Atkinson]

just found out the missing dancers have turned up here - years have not bee good to them but there sure have kept their moves-really feel this footage would be better with perhaps theme from joe 90 or maybe shake a tail feather.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFabXpgXrm0

[Mike]

Although the BBC vaults don't contain it. I thought there was a video archive up for sale the other year which included the Chosen Few TOTP performance?

There was also a thread not too long ago that confirmed there was some private Casino footage owned by someone in Worcester?

i posted info about the actual episode being listing as part of a job lot

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/articles/soul-articles/wigan-chosen-few-totp-tape-exists-r1903

dunno if anything ever come about this

guess it got sponged up

would have thought even at a fairly high price there would have been a bit of demand

[Agentsmith]

I was among those who thought it had been wiped but as far as I know, the BBC still have it, they must do because a definite clip of it has been incorporated into another program and it's on youtube, from what I remember it's a slowed down (slow motion) clip and very short, but I remember commenting that it took me back instantly to that night in 1974 when it was shown.

pete,

i spoke to tim about this today, he informed me that during the course of his research, he visited the bbc archives and they confirmed they no longer had the tape/s and that they had been erazed as in those days it was something prevailent. ive checked youtube....perhaps you can advise if i havent looked hard enough but i looked anyway even though, again, tim told me it would not be found there. i misunderstood as well, what dave summised....that he THOUGHT it had come up in a sale....this would also seem unlikely then?.

i know we should never say NEVER, but unless someone steps up to the plate with an assurity it still exists, we could be missing an integral piece of the jigsaw full stop.

yes, jethro was there and all the other names have been mentioned here, many times before, they have gone into folklore. i for one, can still picture the scene, dancing like it was just another gig whilst the mere mortals were dumbstruck, no way in a million years were any of these compatriots greenhorns......they had all been around a number of years and were seasoned professionals, so to speak and they had practised their dance techniques many times at home as well as in the clubs...i know, i witnessed their talent long before wigan ( the west midland contingent, you understand).

i sincerely hope this thread heightens the senses of the masses, because having gleened this sad fact, it brings to mind what we all face if we dont preserve for posterity what we still have. we've already lost so much that cant be replaced. to use the analogy of david attenborough, its like preserving a unique species for all man-kind,....thats not over-elaborating is it?. do we all shuffle off our mortal coils with: no plaques in strategic places of interest, no rare footage committed to cd and archive for future generations of would-be soulies to relate to?.

in the seventies, our naive youth lead us to take everything for granted....that "it would be around forever...or at least as long as us".

we may also consider that a selfish attitude to take as well.

now, 3 decades down the line, we are contemplating losing things because we simply didnt treasure them enough.

the 100 club?

dear and close friends?

are we the generation ( who started it all) who will forever be remembered for leaving everything too late, before we do something about it?

so some nurdy technicians at the bbc wiped a tape that directly relates to our way of life, sure we cant do nothing about that, it was out of our hands a long time ago, but surely its our responsibility to preserve what we still have and make sure it dosnt go the way of the proverbial extinct civilisations.

the wigan casino years is just that...a material book of rememberance that one man with the enthusiasm and belief, took the time to commit to the masses...it never existed before...just how much longer would we have had to wait?, now we can all proclaim that this was what it was all about and no-one can ever take that away from us.

if this can be achieved, then can we possibly find this film and restore it to its rightful place in our culture?

[Agentsmith]

first time ive seen this footage

baz, im astounded you havent seen this footage before:ohmy: are you older than me or what?

[Baz Atkinson]

just realised i have but there dancing to a different soundtrack on this one -wasnt it ton of dynamite there were dancing too!!

baz, im astounded you havent seen this footage before:ohmy: are you older than me or what?

[Mike]

ref recording

see my last post above

was two years ago and didnt get any reply

but if follow the link on the article the sale details are still up there

maybe something for someone to get their teeth in

there was comments posted to the article that there was private copies about (comments not there at moment) - so maybe another avenue ?

[21 Again]

this is the same year folks -the famous soul train line dance -interesting comparison !!some top moves here !!

Gives me some good ideas for the Blackpool world dancing compitition next week!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7MiG2fe8lE

[Pete S]

pete,

i spoke to tim about this today, he informed me that during the course of his research, he visited the bbc archives and they confirmed they no longer had the tape/s and that they had been erazed as in those days it was something prevailent. ive checked youtube....perhaps you can advise if i havent looked hard enough but i looked anyway even though, again, tim told me it would not be found there. i misunderstood as well, what dave summised....that he THOUGHT it had come up in a sale....this would also seem unlikely then?.

The BBC have more than one archive. I used to have a friend who worked as a production assistant at the BBC in the 80's and he got me some unbelievable David Bowie footage, some of which to this day has never been repeated because "it doesn't exist". The Footsee clip does exist, it was linked to youtube from Soul Source, someone must remember it - it was part of a compilation video and only lasted 10 seconds or so, was in slow motion and you can plainly see jethro, Steve Powell. I would not tell you I'd seen it if I hadn't.

n.b. I'm not sure if the BBC have wiped any of the 1974/75 episodes. As you probably know, UK Gold screened 30 or so shows from various years but a couple of years back, old Top Of The Pops episodes started being shown in Germany and these were not the same as the UK Gold repeats. I've got most of them.

[Guest gordon russell]

At the time this footage at totp......was universally looked upon as breathtakingly toe curling and no one l knew wanted to be associated with it...........roll on 30+ years middle age kicks in and what do you know..........it,s folklore.......yeh right......wrong then..........and still wrong now pegg b

what a godsend that this tape has been erased phew!! that was close

Edited November 8, 2010 by gordon russell

[Wiggyflat]

Think this is it......anybody know what documentary this small snippet came from.You can then trace it back to the source...I can't believe there is only this 5 second bit.If this bit is featured then the whole thing must exist.I'm still after a feature on northern from 78 on a programme called Something else. or was it So It Goes..think they visited Skelmersdale??.Theres also footage from Scarborough from 77 Im after filmed by Yorkshire or ITV which has footage from the scooter rally that year...

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=di02cko2SMM

Edited November 8, 2010 by wiggyflat

[Pete S]

At the time this footage at totp......was universally looked upon as breathtakingly toe curling and no one l knew wanted to be associated with it...........roll on 30+ years middle age kicks in and what do you know..........it,s folklore.......yeh right......wrong then..........and still wrong now pegg b

what a godsend that this tape has been erased phew!! that was close

I suppose it depends on how old you were at the time - I was 14, it was absolutely mind blowing to see dancing like that, it was the only topic at school the next day. I'd pay good money to see it again in full.

[Guest gordon russell]

I suppose it depends on how old you were at the time - I was 14, it was absolutely mind blowing to see dancing like that, it was the only topic at school the next day. I'd pay good money to see it again in full.

that,s fair enough pete.........however this to me was the beginning of the commercialisation of this great unknown ,seedy,dark underground scene. We all know what happened next:thumbsup: peggy

p.s when my dad watched it......my toes could not of turned up any more because of my embarrisment and his laughter lol;)

Edited November 8, 2010 by gordon russell

[Stevie]

I was 17 and used to seeing Jethro and co at WC on a weekly basis. If my memory serves correctly, on TOTP they were crammed onto on a very small area of floor which didn't allow sufficient room for them to properly demonstrate their skills. I also recall being somewhat embarassed explaining to friends that it was not a true reflection of the Casino, and think it's fair to say that it was over commercialisation that formed the basis of my decision to stop going shortly before the 3rd anniversary. It may be good if the clip is available for posterity, but I do not remember it as one of the high points.

[Stevie]

that,s fair enough pete.........however this to me was the beginning of the commercialisation of this great unknown ,seedy,dark underground scene. We all know what happened next:thumbsup: peggy

p.s when my dad watched it......my toes could not of turned up any more because of my embarrisment and his laughter lol;)

You beat me to it - must learn to type quicker

[Guest Byrney]

I was 17 and used to seeing Jethro and co at WC on a weekly basis. If my memory serves correctly, on TOTP they were crammed onto on a very small area of floor which didn't allow sufficient room for them to properly demonstrate their skills. I also recall being somewhat embarassed explaining to friends that it was not a true reflection of the Casino, and think it's fair to say that it was over commercialisation that formed the basis of my decision to stop going shortly before the 3rd anniversary. It may be good if the clip is available for posterity, but I do not remember it as one of the high points.

I can just about remember seeing it as a kid before I got into the scene .

I seem to recall It didn't look very impressive but would like to see it again if its available.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Byrney

[Agentsmith]

Think this is it......anybody know what documentary this small snippet came from.You can then trace it back to the source...I can't believe there is only this 5 second bit.If this bit is featured then the whole thing must exist.I'm still after a feature on northern from 78 on a programme called Something else. or was it So It Goes..think they visited Skelmersdale??.Theres also footage from Scarborough from 77 Im after filmed by Yorkshire or ITV which has footage from the scooter rally that year...

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=di02cko2SMM

sorry mate, seen that here beforeand it aint totp

peggy, youre absolutely right from the point of view of commercialism, but it musnt be taken out of context jusr how important this fleeting moment in time was...its part of our history and heritage.

[Pete S]

sorry mate, seen that here beforeand it aint totp

Freeze frame it at exactly 23 seconds, that's Jethro in the red and white striped shirt and that is Top Of The Pops.

[Guest gordon russell]

sorry mate, seen that here beforeand it aint totp

peggy, youre absolutely right from the point of view of commercialism, but it musnt be taken out of context jusr how important this fleeting moment in time was...its part of our history and heritage.

you're right of course,but it,s these daft episodes that are always used to explain the soul scene.......giving other folk a totally ridiculous idea of what it was/is all about.

[Guest gordon russell]

Freeze frame it at exactly 23 seconds, that's Jethro in the red and white striped shirt and that is Top Of The Pops.

Pete sorry to let ya down mate,but jethro always wore a HOOPED GREEN&WHITE SHIRT rather like a celtic football shirt,but with longer sleeves........and his stint on totps was no differant.........l may be wrong,,,,but l don,t think so peggy

OH..........lets have none of the green&clear jokes lol:lol:

[De-to]

someone should try and contact the poster of the youtube clip dundee2wigan he/she might have the full version,??? :thumbsup:

https://www.youtube.com/user/dundee2wigan

[Pete S]

Don't wish to be pedantic but it was February '75

I must have been thinking of The Javells

[Mister Fish]

Freeze frame it at exactly 23 seconds, that's Jethro in the red and white striped shirt and that is Top Of The Pops.

Hasn't anyone noticed the 'BBC four' logo on the top left?

[De-to]

Hasn't anyone noticed the 'BBC four' logo on the top left?

no i did not nice one,!!!,erm intrigue setting in,albertfish

[Pete S]

Hasn't anyone noticed the 'BBC four' logo on the top left?

I couldn't make out the logo but if you look in the background you can clearly see the TOTP set!

[Mister Fish]

I couldn't make out the logo but if you look in the background you can clearly see the TOTP set!

It is TOTP and clearly BBC FOUR have got some footage.

Maybe a clue is here? https://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2010/sep/07/top-of-the-pops-bbc4

Edited November 8, 2010 by albertfish

[Mister Fish]

This may also be of some use?

https://www.missing-episodes.com/

[Wiggyflat]

I couldn't make out the logo but if you look in the background you can clearly see the TOTP set!

It's probably from episode 3 of BBC4's Dance Brittania series and it does look like The Top Of The Pops set.Can anyone give a precise transmission date of the Top Of The Pops Footsee showing.....I did write to Tom Hasset in Letchworth re the super 8 stuff (lead from D The Drug) but got no reply.I shouldnt have bothered as Taff knows him!!.This stuff is out there. Mick Pacey from the Scuinthorpe Pathfinders has recently had his old super 8 stuff from the northern scooter scene transferred(mid seventies stuff) onto DVD.Ive recently got a load of old Canadian radio stuff on reels which i need transferring with Doors and Jefferson Airplane stuff on it (priceless!!) from a house clearance near me.What about this then....

Edited November 8, 2010 by wiggyflat

[Ric-tic]

It's probably from episode 3 of BBC4's Dance Brittania series and it does look like The Top Of The Pops set.

when this was spoken about before [before the you tube vid] i said about this clip no one replied as they were still saying nah this dosnt exist, this clip is at the end of soul brittania part 1 where they show you a little clip of whats upcoming, blink and you'll miss it , course it wasnt upcoming...

[Guest Dave Turner]

Pete sorry to let ya down mate,but jethro always wore a HOOPED GREEN&WHITE SHIRT rather like a celtic football shirt,but with longer sleeves........and his stint on totps was no differant.........l may be wrong,,,,but l don,t think so peggy

OH..........lets have none of the green&clear jokes lol:lol:

Yup, Jethro deffo wore his usual green & white hooped shirt on TOTP. From what I remember it was a rugby shirt (with collar).

[Pete S]

Yup, Jethro deffo wore his usual green & white hooped shirt on TOTP. From what I remember it was a rugby shirt (with collar).

Well he's got changed in that clip!

[Guest Dave Turner]

Well he's got changed in that clip!

Pete, age is taking it's toll mate but I don't recognise the Jethro in that clip.

I always thought Jethro was a thickish set guy with shortish hair (not really short but not long) who nearly always wore the Celtic shirt. Was always at the front at Casino circa early '74 ............... anyway that was the guy that was footsying on TOTP.

[Pete S]

Pete, age is taking it's toll mate but I don't recognise the Jethro in that clip.

I always thought Jethro was a thickish set guy with shortish hair (not really short but not long) who nearly always wore the Celtic shirt. Was always at the front at Casino circa early '74 ............... anyway that was the guy that was footsying on TOTP.

Used to go on his coach to Wigan - I would recognise him in a line-up, honestly. Also see the comments under that clip, people recognising dancers in the clip without any prompts from here. Besides, it might have been a rehearsal - I've got a TOTP rehearsal of David Bowie doing Heroes, again unbroadcast.

[Guest Dave Turner]

Used to go on his coach to Wigan - I would recognise him in a line-up, honestly. Also see the comments under that clip, people recognising dancers in the clip without any prompts from here. Besides, it might have been a rehearsal - I've got a TOTP rehearsal of David Bowie doing Heroes, again unbroadcast.

Pete, not at all questioning that is Jethro, you guys knew him, I didn't.

I've always assumed (wrongly it seems) the guy in the Celtic shirt who was always at the front at Casino was Jethro. Looking from the balcony he always stood out in that shirt and I recognised him straight away on TOTP because of the shirt and his dancing style.

Didn't he aways wear a purple turban

[Pete S]

Pete, not at all questioning that is Jethro, you guys knew him, I didn't.

I've always assumed (wrongly it seems) the guy in the Celtic shirt who was always at the front at Casino was Jethro. Looking from the balcony he always stood out in that shirt and I recognised him straight away on TOTP because of the shirt and his dancing style.

Didn't he aways wear a purple turban

lol

anyway no point arguing about it, it either is or it isn't TOTP, I would stake every penny or record I've got of it being TOTP.

I'm sure we even had one of the lads actually on there come on here and talk about it.

[Wiggyflat]

Where does this footage come from...........I wonder if its from the So It Goes programme https://www.youtube.c...feature=related . There seems to be quite a bit of Wigan footage This England, This England outakes,the one above (there must be a full programme or piece...it's not just stock footage)and theres also another piece with a lad doing spins in stripey socks (probably not just stock footage).All from different dates.There must have been local news bits especially on the fire as well.....

Edited November 9, 2010 by wiggyflat

[Agentsmith]

soul brittania it maybe but, IT DEFINITELY ISNT THE MISSING TOTP EXCERPT FROM 74. i will agree with one intriguing summisation though.....the possiblity that foriegn tv companies may have it stored somewhere. it stands to reason, be it remote, you might say based simply on the fact it was europe's top pop program for well over a decade and virtually every country would have taken it...thats one helluva big warehouse!!.

there is no way the dancers were filmed up that close and certainly NOT at waist height. i suggested earlier that steve powell, from wolverhampton, is on here....he's one of the dancers and he has recited before, the particular times that shooting for the show took place...i think the group were required on 3 or 4 occasions...each time the were payed a fee.

steve goes under the handle, DANCING DEMON, which he literally was/is!!. he recently provided me with some pics from the whittimere club in ablewell st, walsall and bilston town hall, circa 77/78......i DONT make pretty viewing, for those who know me and i definitely DIDNT do stuff!!.

anyway, thats off track so unless more slueths jump on this, we'll have another search that fizzles out. i'll go back then, to my original statement...that being, that tim spent a large proportion of time in london and at the bbc over 4 years putting this book together, including viewing the entire catalogue of black echoes, which, the british library are the sole posessors of ( the only complete set in existance). and he told me that he broached this question with the bbc's archivists and to be completely honest, i dont think they were amazed to here it.

[Pete S]

soul brittania it maybe but, IT DEFINITELY ISNT THE MISSING TOTP EXCERPT FROM 74.

the entire catalogue of black echoes, which, the british library are the sole posessors of ( the only complete set in existance).

What utter rubbish Rob, the only complete set of Black Echoes, I bet there are dozens of complete sets, how can anyone say they've got the only complete set of a publication?

And until you can come up with something else, it's still Top Of The Pops, you can see the TOTP set. Oh but of course, if Tim Brown says so, it must be true...

[Ian Dewhirst]

What utter rubbish Rob, the only complete set of Black Echoes, I bet there are dozens of complete sets, how can anyone say they've got the only complete set of a publication?

I know of at least 3 people who have complete runs of Blues & Soul, Black Echoes and Black Music. Although accessing 'em can sometimes be an issue, they're definitely out there. Mind the British Library is a brilliance resource regardless.....

Ian D

[Pete S]

I know of at least 3 people who have complete runs of Blues & Soul, Black Echoes and Black Music. Although accessing 'em can sometimes be an issue, they're definitely out there. Mind the British Library is a brilliance resource regardless.....

Ian D

I remember about 18 years ago, I photocopied the Northern page from every Black Echoes up to then, and threw the entire lot of original papers away. Earlier this year I came across the hundreds of photocopied pages. And I threw them away as well