Would There Have Been A Northern Soul Scene

[barney]

dont know if this has been done before but,

was wondering the other day on one of my neverending journeys to a far off workplace

and happend to be listening to the radio when hittgv , marvin gaye was played and then had to change channels due to poor reception thru the scottish borders .got onto another channel and soon enough the supremes and wdolg came on followed soon after by jnr walker and rr , began to think that these iconic sounds and their like is what drew me into this scene, and were it not for berry gordy,s and tamla motowns efforts to get black american contemporary music at that time to be accepted by the mainstream ie, white listeners and to become commercially acceptable , would there have been a northern soul scene,

cheers b

[Ged Parker]

dont know if this has been done before but,

was wondering the other day on one of my neverending journeys to a far off workplace

and happend to be listening to the radio when hittgv , marvin gaye was played and then had to change channels due to poor reception thru the scottish borders .got onto another channel and soon enough the supremes and wdolg came on followed soon after by jnr walker and rr , began to think that these iconic sounds and their like is what drew me into this scene, and were it not for berry gordy,s and tamla motowns efforts to get black american contemporary music at that time to be accepted by the mainstream ie, white listeners and to become commercially acceptable , would there have been a northern soul scene,

cheers b

This will come down to opinions I guess, but for me without a doubt there would have been a 'Northern Soul' scene in the UK. The scene here in the early 60's wasn't Motown exclusively so the demand for those types of tune was already around. The style of music initially listened to may have been slightly different without Motown but soul would still have found its way into the mainstream of American culture and so on to Britain.

Some people may hold the view that Motown lead the way in Detroit others say that it wasn't the first or best 'soul' stable of labels in that city. It became the most sucessful without a doubt but the stories of sharp practice to block others from the market still abound. Some say that without Motown the Detroit soul scene may even have been bigger. Personally I doubt that, mainly because the particular style of Motown hit the spot for young white America and it was this breakthrough that made all the difference in terms of commercial success.

This sucess was useful to Motown and helped bring the music to the mases in the UK but it wasn't INHO crucial to an underground scene here in the UK developing. Think about Ska and Reggae which weren't mainstream 'pop' but still found an appreciative audience in parts of the UK. There are all sorts of cultural reasons (immigration particularly) why this is the case and they are not as apparent in the soul scene but equally the influence of the US was starting to pervade TV (like it had in cinema for years) in the 60's and this wasn't the case for Ska and Reggae.

Almost by definition Northern Soul isn't mainstream so it could be argued that Berry Gordy's effort to take black music to the mainstream are irrelevant. It's not that clear cut in my opinion but the Northern scene or something very like it was inevitable. It may have been smaller, it may not have attracted the fashionistas but it would have found a way to exist.

[ImberBoy]

I would say no.

The production line attitude saw many super records shelved, dumped, deleted and generally ignored due to the tremendous profits and volume of records and it was here where we find the copyists and the Aladdin's caves of finds of the unwanted soul records and these ended up being championed in the north of England and ended up being called "Northernsoul".

[Guest Phoenix8049]

I would say without motown,there is still nearly as much good Northern soul stuff on Atlantic,Stax and Chess to name but 3 Major

labels.

Stu.

[Ceejay]

I would say without motown,there is still nearly as much good Northern soul stuff on Atlantic,Stax and Chess to name but 3 Major

labels.

Stu.

Totally agree............my personal opinion is that Chess, Atlantic/Stax stuff had much more of an impact on the scene than Motown.

Take for instance the white mod groups of the sixties..................they were much more influenced by the likes of Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf and the like...............12 BAR BLUES..............

NEED i SAY MORE!!!!

[Guest in town Mikey]

But would Atlantic Stax and Chess have been as successful without Motown? I'm not so sure they would, and looking at the early Atlantic and Stax stuff especially, I think they may have stayed more in the Blues quadrant of Rhythmn and Blues.

Without motown bringing a more polished, sweet even, style that appealed to more people, many of the lables we now love may have been trying to copy muddy Waters rather than Diana Ross.

But would the Northern Soul scene still exist? I believe so, because there would still be obscure artists making their versions of Stax etc as we know there still are. It may have meant that the scene never really got its moment in the sun, and it may have stayed a truely underground scene right up until now..

[Mark Bicknell]

Just think without Motown the Dreams beds advert woulld be pretty bland lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Agentsmith]

definitely a scene....stands to reason, when the gordy conglomerate of labels were originally being harvested by the pioneering british traveller/collector, they were also picking up other associated detroit labels, but the thirst for more and the quest for more lead them to explore the boundless possibilities and the resultant riches in other major cities such as; chicago, los angeles, philadelphia, new orleans, miami to name but a few. its literally unthinkable that the scene could have nurtured, endured and lasted as long just based on the gordy output...as the saying goes.." man cannot live by bread alone", so, logically theorizing, if motown were the loaf, then the myriad of failed cast-offs were the crumbs that fell off the crust such as; okeh, mirwood, renfro, columbia, bell, amy, mala, buddah, arctic, gamble, big top, sureshot, duke, diamond, constellation, musicor etc.

you could go on infinitely,but,.....at the same time would the scene beTHE SAME without motown? :yes: whilst its accepted how big a part atlantic/stax/chess played in the developement and acceptance of afro-american ryhthm and blues across the racial divide, its generally acknowledged that motown was the catalyst, the fuse that ignited the imagination of the 60's young generations......lets face it here......its whats in the grooves that counts and when you talk about detroit, they still are the deadliest - set the walls and dancefloors on fire - grooves any person on the face of this planet could be inspired by!!

[Dave Moore]

definitely a scene....stands to reason, when the gordy conglomerate of labels were originally being harvested by the pioneering british traveller/collector, they were also picking up other associated detroit labels, but the thirst for more and the quest for more lead them to explore the boundless possibilities and the resultant riches in other major cities such as; chicago, los angeles, philadelphia, new orleans, miami to name but a few. its literally unthinkable that the scene could have nurtured, endured and lasted as long just based on the gordy output...as the saying goes.." man cannot live by bread alone", so, logically theorizing, if motown were the loaf, then the myriad of failed cast-offs were the crumbs that fell off the crust such as; okeh, mirwood, renfro, columbia, bell, amy, mala, buddah, arctic, gamble, big top, sureshot, duke, diamond, constellation, musicor etc.

you could go on infinitely,but,.....at the same time would the scene beTHE SAME without motown? :yes: whilst its accepted how big a part atlantic/stax/chess played in the developement and acceptance of afro-american ryhthm and blues across the racial divide, its generally acknowledged that motown was the catalyst, the fuse that ignited the imagination of the 60's young generations......lets face it here......its whats in the grooves that counts and when you talk about detroit, they still are the deadliest - set the walls and dancefloors on fire - grooves any person on the face of this planet could be inspired by!!

Without Gordy there would maybe not be these 'crumbs' you refer too though. Arctic in Philly were certainly trying to emulate Gordy's success, to the point that they actually turned up there to record tracks hoping the magic would rub off. The myriad of Detroit based labels at some point had musicians from Hitsville moonlighting (same as Chess in Chicago: Tony Clarke's "Landslide" has Motown stamped all over it!) and many of the owner/operators actually were ex Motown Staffers. The obvious ones being HDH at Invictus. Mike Terry tuned his skillset whilst working in the Snakepit, as did Popcorn Wylie, Joe Hunter, Dennis Coffey, Norman Whitfield, Mickey Stevenson etc etc. Mrs Gordy was a direct influence on the Shrine imprint in DC and the likes of LeBaron Taylor's Revilot, Ed Wingate's Golden World and certainly the Pied Piper set up owe more than a passing nod to the "Sound Of Young America".

I'm not claiming that these labels would not have succeeded on their own, without the influence of Gordy's imprint but we'll never really know that. But in just this short passage we've identified that the tentacles of Motown have stretched to Philly, Chicago, all over Michigan, Washington and we've not even mentioned LA or NY yet.

So.. to return to the question.....I would venture that the UK Northern Scene may well have developed without Motown but it'd sure be a different 'scene' musically than it is today.

Regards,

Dave

[grantdyche]

Without Gordy there would maybe not be these 'crumbs' you refer too though. Arctic in Philly were certainly trying to emulate Gordy's success, to the point that they actually turned up there to record tracks hoping the magic would rub off. The myriad of Detroit based labels at some point had musicians from Hitsville moonlighting (same as Chess in Chicago: Tony Clarke's "Landslide" has Motown stamped all over it!) and many of the owner/operators actually were ex Motown Staffers. The obvious ones being HDH at Invictus. Mike Terry tuned his skillset whilst working in the Snakepit, as did Popcorn Wylie, Joe Hunter, Dennis Coffey, Norman Whitfield, Mickey Stevenson etc etc. Mrs Gordy was a direct influence on the Shrine imprint in DC and the likes of LeBaron Taylor's Revilot, Ed Wingate's Golden World and certainly the Pied Piper set up owe more than a passing nod to the "Sound Of Young America".

I'm not claiming that these labels would not have succeeded on their own, without the influence of Gordy's imprint but we'll never really know that. But in just this short passage we've identified that the tentacles of Motown have stretched to Philly, Chicago, all over Michigan, Washington and we've not even mentioned LA or NY yet.

So.. to return to the question.....I would venture that the UK Northern Scene may well have developed without Motown but it'd sure be a different 'scene' musically than it is today.

Regards,

Dave

Really good thread this,

Many of the points raised I really agree with,

I'm 51 this year,So not as well versed on this subject as many others on Soul Source,

I believe that without the Motown input in the 60's and 70's,The Northern scene as we know it would not be,

Yes there are many other labels that produced some fantastic tunes and artists

And I'm not educated enough to start naming them,Where not these artists / Labels not influenced by the Motown sound,Either commercially or musically,

It was the Motown sound that gripped me,And led me into Northern Soul

[Guest]

dont know if this has been done before but,

was wondering the other day on one of my neverending journeys to a far off workplace

and happend to be listening to the radio when hittgv , marvin gaye was played and then had to change channels due to poor reception thru the scottish borders .got onto another channel and soon enough the supremes and wdolg came on followed soon after by jnr walker and rr , began to think that these iconic sounds and their like is what drew me into this scene, and were it not for berry gordy,s and tamla motowns efforts to get black american contemporary music at that time to be accepted by the mainstream ie, white listeners and to become commercially acceptable , would there have been a northern soul scene,

cheers b

That's a very thought provoking question. I don't know much at all but can probably guess that if Mr Gordy hadn't have been so successful in pushing black artists through then many that recorded on other labels wouldn't have even had the opportunity. Because Gordy had shown success and popularity, others were confident enough to make their own records in the hope of attracting the same notoriety. Sadly, this wasn't the case for the majority or even those that had gone before. But luckily, for the likes of me, they tried and I'm now enjoying the fruits of their labour

[Ian Dewhirst]

dont know if this has been done before but,

was wondering the other day on one of my neverending journeys to a far off workplace

and happend to be listening to the radio when hittgv , marvin gaye was played and then had to change channels due to poor reception thru the scottish borders .got onto another channel and soon enough the supremes and wdolg came on followed soon after by jnr walker and rr , began to think that these iconic sounds and their like is what drew me into this scene, and were it not for berry gordy,s and tamla motowns efforts to get black american contemporary music at that time to be accepted by the mainstream ie, white listeners and to become commercially acceptable , would there have been a northern soul scene,

cheers b

My guess is probably not.

There may well have been a collectible rare Soul scene, but whether it would ever have been classed as 'Northern Soul' is open to conjecture.

Motown provided the template for Northern Soul. It was the greatest 100% Black-owned commercial success story of the 1960's and the influence of the operation inspired tens of thousands of copycat recordings which provided the foundation for what we now class as Northern Soul. For every great Four Tops, Temptations, Supremes, Isley Brothers, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Marv Johnson, Gladys Knight & The Pips, Smokey Robinson & The Miracles, Velvelettes, Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Spinners, Jr Walker & The All-Stars, Martha Reeves & The Vandellas, Jimmy Ruffin GREAT records, there would be 1000's upon 1000's of small label copyists and entrepreneurs who were trying to emulate the Motown template and get a taste of the magic themselves.

And who could blame 'em?

No other record company provided the level of inspiration that Berry Gordy's operation provided. Motown truly was the sound of young America and was revolutionary in terms of using full orchestras and string sections and mixing the tracks so that they sounded great on transistor radios. Their A&R, Artist Developement process and quality control was second to none. No other operation came even close.

So, yes. 100% absolutely Motown was the template for Northern Soul.

I mean, surely it's blaringly obvious isn't it...........?

Ian D

[Kris Holmes]

i think no, kind of like there would be no rockabilly revivalist scene without Elvis Presley. 90% of those rockabilly cats were trying to copy Presley & get some of his success, similar to 60s soul in my opinion, so many of those labels went at it to try & grab some of what Berry Gordy was achieving. Interesting thread to ponder though.

[barney]

some really interesting replies

personally think the scene as we know it would not be anywhere near like it what was ,and still is today

can you remember the 60s beatlemania, the mersey beat and all the young girls chasing them round and the receptions they got at airports etc.the start of the pop revolution.

thought this was dead uncool and found motown at first on the pirate radio stations then it was being played at local youth clubs and the rest is history as we say.

maybe this is one of the reasons why liverpool has never had a big NS following they are happy to stay in the beatle/merseybeat groove.

bit simplistic perhaps but why did we go down this path and back in the day who would have thought there would still be a soul scene in 2010

for me its all down to motown

[Sjclement]

some really interesting replies

personally think the scene as we know it would not be anywhere near like it what was ,and still is today

can you remember the 60s beatlemania, the mersey beat and all the young girls chasing them round and the receptions they got at airports etc.the start of the pop revolution.

thought this was dead uncool and found motown at first on the pirate radio stations then it was being played at local youth clubs and the rest is history as we say.

maybe this is one of the reasons why liverpool has never had a big NS following they are happy to stay in the beatle/merseybeat groove.

bit simplistic perhaps but why did we go down this path and back in the day who would have thought there would still be a soul scene in 2010

for me its all down to motown

None Taken

Being brought up in the Merseyside area I dont think Berry's SOUND OF YOUNG AMERICA would have had such an impact without the CUNARD YANKS bringing records across the pond I'm sure that its documented that John Lennon used to play these early MOTOWN records to EPSTIEN moaning that the American productions were so much better than UK ones. Pop music was a commercial venture so only the MOTOWN American hits would gain release on these shores. The edgier Motown records( the ones we prefer!) came in through the back door.

[Ian Dewhirst]

some really interesting replies

personally think the scene as we know it would not be anywhere near like it what was ,and still is today

can you remember the 60s beatlemania, the mersey beat and all the young girls chasing them round and the receptions they got at airports etc.the start of the pop revolution.

thought this was dead uncool and found motown at first on the pirate radio stations then it was being played at local youth clubs and the rest is history as we say.

maybe this is one of the reasons why liverpool has never had a big NS following they are happy to stay in the beatle/merseybeat groove.

bit simplistic perhaps but why did we go down this path and back in the day who would have thought there would still be a soul scene in 2010

for me its all down to motown

Yep, that makes sense to me Barney.

Motown was THE major part of my personal soundtrack growing up in the North. Every school Disco, Youth Club and Fun Fair was belting out Motown in the late 60's. It was especially popular with the girls and the whole 'dance around the handbags' scenario was almost always accompanied by Motown tunes. The very first record collection I ever bought from a local DJ was probably 50% Motown and I can plainly remember going round to girls houses and they'd have every Supremes/Diana Ross/Four Tops/Temptations records on original black TMG's. It was almost impossible to avoid around my way, which was Leeds, Bradford, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Wakefield. Whenever I'd go out locally, the Motown stuff would be so popular that many of the 'B' sides were every bit as popular as the 'A' sides - "There's No Stopping Us Now" - The Supremes, "Third Finger Left Hand" - Martha & The Vandellas, "Wherever I Lay My Hat" - Marvin Gaye, "It's The Same Old Song" - the Four Tops were all huge records which would be guaranteed to fill the floor everytime.

Also I'd be willing to bet that Motown Chartbusters Volume 3 was probably the biggest selling Motown album in it's UK history at that point. That was one album which was pretty much guaranteed to be in every house. It certainly had the best sleeve of any compilation ever.......

1. "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" - Marvin Gaye

2. "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" - Diana Ross & The Supremes And The Temptations

3. "My Cherie Amour" - Stevie Wonder

4. "This Old Heart Of Mine (Is Weak For You)" - The Isley Brothers

5. "I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose" - Marv Johnson

6. "No Matter What Sign You Are" - Diana Ross & The Supremes

7. "I'm in a Different World" - The Four Tops

8. "Dancing In The Street" - Martha & The Vandellas

9. "For Once In My Life" - Stevie Wonder

10. "You're All I Need To Get By" - Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell

11. "Get Ready" - The Temptations

12. "Stop Her On The Sight (S.O.S)" - Edwin Starr

13. "Love Child" - Diana Ross & The Supremes

14. "Behind a Painted Smile" - The Isley Brothers

15. "(I'm A) Road Runner" - Jr. Walker & The All Stars

16. "The Tracks Of My Tears" - The Miracles

The track-listing wasn't bad either!

Ian D

[Jez Jones]

Yep, that makes sense to me Barney.

Motown was THE major part of my personal soundtrack growing up in the North. Every school Disco, Youth Club and Fun Fair was belting out Motown in the late 60's. It was especially popular with the girls and the whole 'dance around the handbags' scenario was almost always accompanied by Motown tunes. The very first record collection I ever bought from a local DJ was probably 50% Motown and I can plainly remember going round to girls houses and they'd have every Supremes/Diana Ross/Four Tops/Temptations records on original black TMG's. It was almost impossible to avoid around my way, which was Leeds, Bradford, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Wakefield. Whenever I'd go out locally, the Motown stuff would be so popular that many of the 'B' sides were every bit as popular as the 'A' sides - "There's No Stopping Us Now" - The Supremes, "Third Finger Left Hand" - Martha & The Vandellas, "Wherever I Lay My Hat" - Marvin Gaye, "It's The Same Old Song" - the Four Tops were all huge records which would be guaranteed to fill the floor everytime.

Also I'd be willing to bet that Motown Chartbusters Volume 3 was probably the biggest selling Motown album in it's UK history at that point. That was one album which was pretty much guaranteed to be in every house. It certainly had the best sleeve of any compilation ever.......

1. "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" - Marvin Gaye

2. "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" - Diana Ross & The Supremes And The Temptations

3. "My Cherie Amour" - Stevie Wonder

4. "This Old Heart Of Mine (Is Weak For You)" - The Isley Brothers

5. "I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose" - Marv Johnson

6. "No Matter What Sign You Are" - Diana Ross & The Supremes

7. "I'm in a Different World" - The Four Tops

8. "Dancing In The Street" - Martha & The Vandellas

9. "For Once In My Life" - Stevie Wonder

10. "You're All I Need To Get By" - Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell

11. "Get Ready" - The Temptations

12. "Stop Her On The Sight (S.O.S)" - Edwin Starr

13. "Love Child" - Diana Ross & The Supremes

14. "Behind a Painted Smile" - The Isley Brothers

15. "(I'm A) Road Runner" - Jr. Walker & The All Stars

16. "The Tracks Of My Tears" - The Miracles

The track-listing wasn't bad either!

Ian D

Yep that about sums it up from my memory too 68/69.Some made the 'leap of faith' and joined the lads as we went for the more 'macho sounding' Stax/Atlantic/Chess/Coral(brunswick ) stuff lol:D. Some kept with Motown. Add the 2 'typesof sounds' together and you aint far off what is commonly known as northern.

..Good call on Motown Chartbusters Vol 3. Seemed to go downbank after that---or did we become more picky(bloody soul snobs even back then!)

Edited July 17, 2010 by jez jones

[Guest topcatnumpty1]

Great thread----got to agree with Dave Moore and My learned friend (the southern softie) Mr.Dewhirst,i think without Berry Gordy,s stable the Northern Scene would still be in exsistence albeit a very different one.I BETmost people collecting soul records during the last 40 yrs had some Motown in ther first 20 buys,for me (Like Ian) i started listening to TMG -b- SIDES(STILL LOVE Third finger left hand and Stay in My lonely arms) i then found out about Soul.Gordy,V.I.P,Tamla etc--i then read(years later) about the 1968 buy out of Ed Wingate,s labels--then noticed names like Revilot,Solid Hit and began collecting everything Detroit(Bob Foster and that old guy in Ormskirk--where are you now??)and then --and this is the crux stuff that sounded alike from Chicago,Los Angeles etc. and then Southern soul--Malaco,Ronn,Jewel,etc,.

Forgive my ramblings--but in answer to the original point of this thread,No i don,t think there would have been a "Northern Scene" as we KNOW IT AS IT IS TODAY without Tamla Motown,s influence(certainly on the collecting side)

All imho

Tony C.

[Guest MBarrett]

I would love to see playlists for some of the early venues such as Torch and Catacombs e.g. 1967 through 1970.

I am guessing that in 1967 they would have been playing a reasonable percentage of Motown - and then as the Motown sound started changing the DJ's started searching out rarer sounds but with the dance groove that their punters still demanded.

OR HAVE I GOT THAT COMPLETELY WRONG??!!

Would love to see this important transition period properly documented by folks who were actually there.

Before it's too late!!

MB

[Ian Dewhirst]

I would love to see playlists for some of the early venues such as Torch and Catacombs e.g. 1967 through 1970.

I am guessing that in 1967 they would have been playing a reasonable percentage of Motown - and then as the Motown sound started changing the DJ's started searching out rarer sounds but with the dance groove that their punters still demanded.

OR HAVE I GOT THAT COMPLETELY WRONG??!!

Would love to see this important transition period properly documented by folks who were actually there.

Before it's too late!!

MB

No, I think you're bang right. I was 15 in 1970 and just beginning to discover Northern Soul being too young to have gone to the Wheel but I used to pester the older lads about records and some of 'em took pity on me and played me stuff. "Heaven Must Have Sent You" by The Elgins is a perfect example of a super rare Motown record which became so popular via the Northern clubs that it eventually turned into a UK Top 20 hit when Tamla Motown eventually issued it .

Some of the original Wheelies are on here. Brian "45" Phillips would be a good person to comment on Motown as he was an original Wheel DJ.

I think he's still alive...........

Ian D

[The Tempest]

Asked both direct this same question , answer , YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So much talent and so many labels , although it would of cost us collectors a lot more in the end , searching for local release gems

[Sjclement]

No, I think you're bang right. I was 15 in 1970 and just beginning to discover Northern Soul being too young to have gone to the Wheel but I used to pester the older lads about records and some of 'em took pity on me and played me stuff. "Heaven Must Have Sent You" by The Elgins is a perfect example of a super rare Motown record which became so popular via the Northern clubs that it eventually turned into a UK Top 20 hit when Tamla Motown eventually issued it .

Some of the original Wheelies are on here. Brian "45" Phillips would be a good person to comment on Motown as he was an original Wheel DJ.

I think he's still alive...........

Ian D

I was the same age Ian the Wirral was a bit of a backwater but we were lucky enough to have a youth club (The 66) with a dj who slipped in the occasional Motwon 45 to keep us happy.The real bonus was having a mobile disco in the area that was run by some older guys that went to the Wheel after the Stock car racing at Bellvue. Our gang would follow them and pester them to play Why You Wanna Make Me Blue, Girls Alright With Me, Theres no Stopping us Now & I'll Always Love You.

I'm sure the wedding guests and bar mitzahs appreciated them

[Guest proudlove]

No, I think you're bang right. I was 15 in 1970 and just beginning to discover Northern Soul being too young to have gone to the Wheel but I used to pester the older lads about records and some of 'em took pity on me and played me stuff. "Heaven Must Have Sent You" by The Elgins is a perfect example of a super rare Motown record which became so popular via the Northern clubs that it eventually turned into a UK Top 20 hit when Tamla Motown eventually issued it .

Some of the original Wheelies are on here. Brian "45" Phillips would be a good person to comment on Motown as he was an original Wheel DJ.

I think he's still alive...........

Ian D

I was talking to Brian a few weeks ago...............I think he occasionally pops on here as BriPhil..................or something similar.

Steve

[Guest proudlove]

l doubt it very much....Tamla Motown is/was the only label that could play host to an all-nighter and play 100% Northern Soul ......went to one at Wigan july 78.....ask Mark Bicknell...

Phil.......................read Swish's post on the "No modern at the Wheel" thread................and have a look at the Wheel playlists........................I think you will find that All Nighters,and the place that Godin penned that unfortunate phrase.............."Northern Soul".............existed before thye proliferation of Motown.

NS is uptempo dance music......................end of.....................

How many Motown tracks can you honestly say are uptempo dance music?

Steve

[Guest proudlove]

l really don't know,mate,l just know that l went to the casino in 78 and every tune that was played was.....sorry to say this.....was northern soul...and the floor was full of people dancing in a northern soul way.....who were there every week.....and were dressed like Northern Soulies...

So somewhere near 200,Steve

If you look at the album posted earlier in the thread apart from possibly road runner,which of the tracks is uptempo dance music?

Don't forget that the Club that really started all this was The Wheel,which at the time was a club playing relatively unknown/rarities/new releases with one thing in common.............................up tempo dance music to cater for the Amphetamine fuelled patrons..............

Also bear in mind that the people who DJ,d and patronised the Wheel were the coolest people on the planet........................do you think that the would have countenanced chart music?

Motown had a huge part in peoples musical upbringing................I absolutely love a lot of their output.........................but not in a club.

There would have been ,as others have posted,some sort of scene in all probability,every genre of music has its followers,but in my eyes,"The Scene" was there BEFORE Motown

It would be interesting to get the comments from the likes of Brian Phillips,Brian Walker,Julian Bentley,Barry Tasker(Pendulum )etc.................

The above is my opinion,

No doubt lots of people will disagree.

Steve

[Ian Dewhirst]

Phil.......................read Swish's post on the "No modern at the Wheel" thread................and have a look at the Wheel playlists........................I think you will find that All Nighters,and the place that Godin penned that unfortunate phrase.............."Northern Soul".............existed before thye proliferation of Motown.

NS is uptempo dance music......................end of.....................

How many Motown tracks can you honestly say are uptempo dance music?

Steve

Mmm. Don't quite get what you mean Proudlove. Motown was pumping out records from the early 60's, tons of which were huge at the Wheel throughout the whole of the 60's. Early examples being The Miracles "Shop Around" and "You Really Got A Hold On Me", The Marvelettes "Please Mr Postman" and Barrett Strong's "Money" from the early 60's through to the Contours' "Determination" and "First I Look At The Purse", Marv Johnson's "You've Got The Love I Love", The Marvelettes "Don't Mess With Bill", Barbara Randolph's "I Got A Feeling", The Spinners "I'll Always Love You" and "Sweet Thing", Earl Van Dyke's "All For You" and "6 by 6" and virtually every Jr Walker & The All-Stars release from the mid 60's. Motown was one of the lynchpin labels at the Wheel throughout it's entire history.

And how many Motown tracks can I honestly say are uptempop dance music? Errr, most of 'em mate. That was the whole point of Motown. They were in the business of making uptempo dance music and doing it better than any other operation in the world. That's EXACTLY what "Dancing In The Street" was all about.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of any other label that could compare to Motown in terms of uptempo dance music. They were the world leaders of uptempo dance music LOL. You're not on drugs or something are ya Steve.......?

Ian D

[Chalky]

l doubt it very much....Tamla Motown is/was the only label that could play host to an all-nighter and play 100% Northern Soul ......went to one at Wigan july 78.....ask Mark Bicknell...

it would be far easier though to do an all-nighter without any Motown, in fact several all-nighters.

Much of the Motown label isn't Northern Soul or even Soul, it was aimed solely at the mass white markets, much of the more soulful stuff was left in the can. Black dance music, R&B, group soul, doo wop existed before Motown so it is only natural to say it would have progressed without the influence of Motown as new production techniques and technology progressed. Motown also put many labels out of business or swallowed them up and stifled competition and many of those labels made better music, labels where the musicians were left to really show off their talent.

As Steve says look at the Wheel topic somewhere on the site, Brian Philips posted loads of Wheel tunes that are not Motown and from what I've read Motown didn't have the influence in the early days of the scene that it had in later years.

[Guest proudlove]

Mmm. Don't quite get what you mean Proudlove. Motown was pumping out records from the early 60's, tons of which were huge at the Wheel throughout the whole of the 60's. Early examples being The Miracles "Shop Around" and "You Really Got A Hold On Me", The Marvelettes "Please Mr Postman" and Barrett Strong's "Money" from the early 60's through to the Contours' "Determination" and "First I Look At The Purse", Marv Johnson's "You've Got The Love I Love", The Marvelettes "Don't Mess With Bill", Barbara Randolph's "I Got A Feeling", The Spinners "I'll Always Love You" and "Sweet Thing", Earl Van Dyke's "All For You" and "6 by 6" and virtually every Jr Walker & The All-Stars release from the mid 60's. Motown was one of the lynchpin labels at the Wheel throughout it's entire history.

And how many Motown tracks can I honestly say are uptempop dance music? Errr, most of 'em mate. That was the whole point of Motown. They were in the business of making uptempo dance music and doing it better than any other operation in the world. That's EXACTLY what "Dancing In The Street" was all about.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of any other label that could compare to Motown in terms of uptempo dance music. They were the world leaders of uptempo dance music LOL. You're not on drugs or something are ya Steve.......?

Ian D

I think we are coming at this from slightly different angles Ian...................the initial question from Barney was about commercially successful Motown,using Grapevine as an example..........................that is slow.

Dancing in the street..................................is slow.................................out of the tracks you've listed 6x6 to me is a dancer..................the rest are slow......................

Thats why I posted that it would be interesting to hear the opinions of the guys that played the music.

But as I posted,that is my opinion............................................and no I'm not on drugs.

Steve.

[Ian Dewhirst]

If you look at the album posted earlier in the thread apart from possibly road runner,which of the tracks is uptempo dance music?

Don't forget that the Club that really started all this was The Wheel,which at the time was a club playing relatively unknown/rarities/new releases with one thing in common.............................up tempo dance music to cater for the Amphetamine fuelled patrons..............

Also bear in mind that the people who DJ,d and patronised the Wheel were the coolest people on the planet........................do you think that the would have countenanced chart music?

Motown had a huge part in peoples musical upbringing................I absolutely love a lot of their output.........................but not in a club.

There would have been ,as others have posted,some sort of scene in all probability,every genre of music has its followers,but in my eyes,"The Scene" was there BEFORE Motown

It would be interesting to get the comments from the likes of Brian Phillips,Brian Walker,Julian Bentley,Barry Tasker(Pendulum )etc.................

The above is my opinion,

No doubt lots of people will disagree.

Steve

Well I'll disagree for a start Steve. Motown was created in 1959 with Marv Johnson's "You Got What It Takes" - an uptempo dance record.

I think you're making the mistake of assuming that every Motown record was a hit. Well,they weren't, especially when the Wheel was playing 'em. In fact, I don't think any of the Wheel Motown monsters were hits when the Wheel was playing 'em. The Wheel essentially laid the foundations for the future popularity of Motown, which really exploded at the latter end of the 60's.

That's one of the reasons why Motown Chartbusters Vol 3 was the first compilation album to make No.1 on the UK album charts because many of those tracks had built up demand over the previous few years essentially as a result of clubs like The Wheel and a host of other places playing 'em and building demand.

And you and I must have different ears 'cos when you said, "if you look at the album posted earlier in the thread apart from possibly road runner,which of the tracks is uptempo dance music", I'd have said the following were all uptempo dance music:-

4. "This Old Heart Of Mine (Is Weak For You)" - The Isley Brothers

5. "I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose" - Marv Johnson

7. "I'm in a Different World" - The Four Tops

8. "Dancing In The Street" - Martha & The Vandellas

9. "For Once In My Life" - Stevie Wonder

11. "Get Ready" - The Temptations

12. "Stop Her On Sight (S.O.S)" - Edwin Starr

13. "Love Child" - Diana Ross & The Supremes

14. "Behind a Painted Smile" - The Isley Brothers

15. "(I'm A) Road Runner" - Jr. Walker & The All Stars

Well over half the album in fact. Are we listening to the same album.....?

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

I think we are coming at this from slightly different angles Ian...................the initial question from Barney was about commercially successful Motown,using Grapevine as an example..........................that is slow.

Dancing in the street..................................is slow.................................out of the tracks you've listed 6x6 to me is a dancer..................the rest are slow......................

Thats why I posted that it would be interesting to hear the opinions of the guys that played the music.

But as I posted,that is my opinion............................................and no I'm not on drugs.

Steve.

Nah, you're obviously on speed mate!

"Dancing In The Street" is not slow. Compared to Williams and Watson "Too Late" or Sandi Sheldon "You're Gonna Make Me Love You" it could be considered more mid-tempo-ish but you can't possible classify "Dancing In The Street" as slow. It's a perfect example of a booming classic Detroit mid-tempo dance tune........it filled dancefloors across the world at the time.....

Ian D

[Chalky]

But could you do anNS all-nighter and just play tunes from one label..

wouldn't it be a bit boring listening to the same style all night? and besides it isn't really whwt the topic is about is it?

Anyway the Wingate stable of labels maybe? Stax/Volt? Chess? ABC group, RCA, Okeh?

[Guest proudlove]

Well I'll disagree for a start Steve. Motown was created in 1959 with Marv Johnson's "You Got What It Takes" - an uptempo dance record.

I think you're making the mistake of assuming that every Motown record was a hit. Well,they weren't, especially when the Wheel was playing 'em. In fact, I don't think any of the Wheel Motown monsters were hits when the Wheel was playing 'em. The Wheel essentially laid the foundations for the future popularity of Motown, which really exploded at the latter end of the 60's.

That's one of the reasons why Motown Chartbusters Vol 3 was the first compilation album to make No.1 on the UK album charts because many of those tracks had built up demand over the previous few years essentially as a result of clubs like The Wheel and a host of other places playing 'em and building demand.

And you and I must have different ears 'cos when you said, "if you look at the album posted earlier in the thread apart from possibly road runner,which of the tracks is uptempo dance music", I'd have said the following were all uptempo dance music:-

4. "This Old Heart Of Mine (Is Weak For You)" - The Isley Brothers

5. "I'll Pick A Rose For My Rose" - Marv Johnson

7. "I'm in a Different World" - The Four Tops

8. "Dancing In The Street" - Martha & The Vandellas

9. "For Once In My Life" - Stevie Wonder

11. "Get Ready" - The Temptations

12. "Stop Her On Sight (S.O.S)" - Edwin Starr

13. "Love Child" - Diana Ross & The Supremes

14. "Behind a Painted Smile" - The Isley Brothers

15. "(I'm A) Road Runner" - Jr. Walker & The All Stars

Well over half the album in fact. Are we listening to the same album.....?

Ian D

Yup definitely listening to the same album,as you said,different ears mate,I understand completely the point about the Motown tracks played at the Wheel..........................but there was also a huge amount played that wasn't Motown.

I haven't got the huge amount of knowledge of music that you have and therefore would be struggling to counter your points ,but the tracks you have put up as uptempo are to me mid tempo,but again as you say...........

Different ears........................

Steve

[Chalky]

Nah, you're obviously on speed mate!

"Dancing In The Street" is not slow. Compared to Williams and Watson "Too Late" or Sandi Sheldon "You're Gonna Make Me Love You" it could be considered more mid-tempo-ish but you can't possible classify "Dancing In The Street" as slow. It's a perfect example of a booming classic Detroit mid-tempo dance tune........it filled dancefloors across the world at the time.....

Ian D

Do you consider Dancing in the Street to be Northern Soul? I wouldn't want to hear it at a soul night and certainly not an all-nighter.

[Chalky]

Anyway NS is just people copying the sounds of Motown......listen to The Youngheats.Lillie Bryant,Pookie Hudson and a thousand more!

many didn't simply copy Motown, many used their own techniques and methods and many did a better job of making black dance music than Motown which was aimed at the masses and not necessarily the black music scene.

And after all the Soul scene (before NS was coined) was primarily rare obscure black dance music not mass produced commercial dance music was it not?

[Ian Dewhirst]

Do you consider Dancing in the Street to be Northern Soul? I wouldn't want to hear it at a soul night and certainly not an all-nighter.

Well not the best example as it really was an out and out Pop hit, but I consider records like the Isley Brothers "This Old Heart Of Mine" and "Tell Me It's Just A Rumour", Steve Wonder's "Uptight" and "Nothing's Too Good For My Baby", The Four Top's "Reach Out, I'll Be There" and "I Can't Help Myself", The Contour's "Just A Little Misunderstanding" and "Baby Hit And Run", Edwin Starr's "S.O.S." and "Headline News", The Elgins "Heaven Must Have Sent You" etc, etc to be prime examples of Northern Soul. The fact they had a whole slew of hits with uptempo material doesn't detract from them in my opinion. It's a credit that an independent Black operation from Detroit had the game totally locked down. We have a lot to thank them for IMO.

Whoops. Gotta run for the radio show but I'll be back.......

Ian D

[Pete Jay]

I FIRST WENT TO 'THE WHEEL' IN 1965 AS A YOUNG CURIOUS 15 YEAR OLD WITH SOME OLDER LADS.

YES THERE WAS A FAIR SHARE OF MOTOWN PLAYED BACK IN THEM DAYS, BUT LOTS OF OTHER STUFF AS WELL

IF YOU CHECK OUT 'THE TWISTED WHEEL STORY' ALBUM/CD NOT A MOTOWN TRACK LISTED BUT NON THE LESS SOME GREAT SOUL MUSIC.

YES MOTOWN PROBABLY DID HAVE A MAJOR PART IN INTRODUCING MANY PEOPLE TO THE SCENE - AFTER ALL THEIR RECORDS WERE 'CHARTING' ON A REGULAR BASIS THUS HEARD BY MANY.

BUT THE MAJORITY OF TUNES BEING PLAYED THEN & TODAY WERE FROM OBSCURE MAINLY SMALL INDEPENDANT RECORD LABELS NEVER PICKED UP BY THE MAJOR RECORD COMPANIES & THUS UNKNOWN TO THE MASSES.

IMHO THATS WHATS KEPT THE SCENE GOING ALL THESE YEARS - THE THIRST TO HEAR NEW SOUNDS AS WELL AS THE GREAT ONES FROM THE PAST.

PETE

[Chalky]

Unfortunately music like most things is made to selll...If it sells it makes money.....nobody has made a tune and said 'I hope this stays obscure'....apart from Benzine.......what was he thinking?

but this scene is by and large about the stuff that didn't sell, the non commercial stuff and much of Motown was commercial and plenty of it pop. And records were made for the black market and not aimed at the white pop market so therefore it had a limited audience.

[barney]

Come off it,you didn't get into this scene by listening to Frank Wilson you got into it by listening to This Old Heart Of Mine.....

thats sort of my point phil

back in the 60s and coming from a mining village near barnsley the only music that was on offer locally was at local youth clubs , bops ,church halls etc and the dj was more often than not the local vicar ,church organist or schoolteacher come youth club organiser and the music was commercial , merseybeat /rock and roll and the odd motown type of music and surprisingly the motown was easy to dance to and it was great when you went to the local fairs and heard motown booming out on the waltzers etc and it was something that a lot of us liked, then we heard sounds brought in by older lads and lasses from the wheel and other places which have been mentioned on here and as said the rest is history ,

if it wasnt for my initial introduction to motown and my liking for it ,and the interest it created .to want to listen and dance to similar sounds , for me the scene wouldnt have come to what it is .

this is obviously my own personall take .and it is obvious there were people on the scene before me who may have a different perspective and this is why I posed the question.

one of my all time faves is the four tops ,turn to stone , hearing this being played out at the easter fair on brierley common and dancing around on the waltzers with the then love of my life ,was about 15 and in heaven , oh happy days

Edited July 18, 2010 by barney

[Chalky]

Come off it,you didn't get into this scene by listening to Frank Wilson you got into it by listening to This Old Heart Of Mine.....

it was probably the northern the older kids were playing at school and the youth club where I grew up. When I left school I borrowed Pete Stones collection, not much Motown in it from what I can remember. besides what you are saying is a totally different argument and we are talking about would there be a scene without Motown, not what got us into the scene.

[Guest proudlove]

thats sort of my point phil

back in the 60s and coming from a mining village near barnsley the only music that was on offer locally was at local youth clubs , bops ,church halls etc and the dj was more often than not the local vicar ,church organist or schoolteacher come youth club organiser and the music was commercial , merseybeat /rock and roll and the odd motown type of music and surprisingly the motown was easy to dance to and it was great when you went to the local fairs and heard motown booming out on the waltzers etc and it was something that a lot of us liked, then we heard sounds brought in by older lads and lasses from the wheel and other places which have been mentioned on here and as said the rest is history ,

if it wasnt for my initial introduction to motown and my liking for it ,and the interest it created .to want to listen and dance to similar sounds , for me the scene wouldnt have come to what it is .

this is obviously my own personall take .and it is obvious there were people on the scene before me who may have a different perspective and this is why I posed the question.

And an excellent question it is Barney.

I can see this one running a while.

Steve.

[barney]

it was probably the northern the older kids were playing at school and the youth club where I grew up. When I left school I borrowed Pete Stones collection, not much Motown in it from what I can remember. besides what you are saying is a totally different argument and we are talking about would there be a scene without Motown, not what got us into the scene.

also a good point chalky , but we all had to start somewhere and back then the scene ie those who went to the wheel were few and far between, and it was not has big and diverse as what it was to become and as a typical 14 -15 yr oldk, mainstream motown was basically the only thing on offer and in no way would any of the older lads lend us any of there stuff and it was drip fed to us as the latest sounds were aquired,

if it were not for motown maybe I would have gone down another path or taken up other interests ,

[Chalky]

Jesus Christ......Northern Soul is everybody copying the sound of Motown.......No Motown,No Northern Soul......simple!!

Did they all copy Motown, don;'t think so, Stax/Volt and many of the Southern labels had there own sound. You are almost saying there would be no Soul Music if Motown didn't come into being, that is absolute rubbish.

[barney]

Jesus Christ......Northern Soul is everybody copying the sound of Motown.......No Motown,No Northern Soul......simple!!

dont think its that simple phil

and maybe I am being a bit naive thinking that from my perspective motown got me into northern soul and therefore everybody else went down the same path and ditto no motown no northern soul , when obviously there were other labels playing out great sounds that were being heared and danced to by other people and maybe the scene would have become established without motown

its just a thought and a bit of musing as to why I am here today and northern soul is still very much part of my life and of many others of my age and older or younger for that matter

[barney]

You know,l know and every body else on here knows that if it weren't for Motown we had gone elsewhere! Stop being a Soul Snob!

phil behave yourself and please refrain from winding chalky up

we are trying to establish a pertinent point which goes to the root of our scene and involves deep and meaningfull discussion on our core beliefs and how they were established

[Guest]

Did they all copy Motown, don;'t think so, Stax/Volt and many of the Southern labels had there own sound. You are almost saying there would be no Soul Music if Motown didn't come into being, that is absolute rubbish.

Agreed !!!!

Northern Souls beginings were the early 60s Mod clubs - I appreciate motown records were played at these clubs, but at the time 64 motown (stateside) would have just been another RnB label ?

Just to remind everyone of Randy Cozens Mod top 100 - and he should have know as he was there in the beginings of this scene !!!!!

The variety of 60s Soul at the original Mod clubs is obviously all here to see !

The rare soul scene would have evolved somehow without motown IMO

Its really not worth giving that much thought to IMO - because Motown did go on to be the biggest black label by 1966 and we can't change history !!

1. What'cha Gonna Do About It Doris Troy (Atlantic)

2. So Far Away Hank Jacobs (Sue)

3. Come See About Me Nella Dodds (Pye Int)

4. Hole In The Wall George Stone (Stateside)

5. Que Sera Sera- The High Keys (London)

6. Getting Mighty Crowded Betty Everett (Fontana)

7. I Don't Wanna Fuss Sugar Pie Desanto (Pye Int)

8. Walking The Dog Rufus Thomas (London)

9. Hold What You Got Joe Tex (Atlantic)

10. Time Is On My Side Irma Thomas (Liberty)

11. I Can't Believe What You Say Ike And Tina Turner (Sue)

12. The Drifter Ray Pollard (UA)

13. Any Day Now Chuck Jackson (Stateside)

14. The Monkey Time Major Lance (Columbia)

15. La De Da, I Love You Inez And Charlie Foxx (Sue)

16. The Cheater Bob Kuban And The In Men (Stateside)

17. I'm In Your Hands Mary Love (King)

18. The Jerk The Larks (Pye Int)

19. I Had A Talk With My Man Mitty Collier (Pye Int)

20. Oh No Not My Baby Maxine Brown ((Pye Int)

21. Gotta Have Your Love The Sapphires (HMV)

22. Everybody Needs Somebody To Love Solomon Burke (Atlantic)

23. La La La La La The Blendells (Reprise)

24. Ride Your Pony Lee Dorsey (Stateside)

25. Selfish One Jackie Ross (Pye Int)

26. Tired Of Being Lonely The Sharpees (Stateside)

27. El Watusi Ray Barretto (Colombia)

28. Treat Her Right Roy Head (Vocallion)

29. Who's Cheating Who? Little Milton (Chess)

30. Out Of Sight James Brown (Phillips)

31. Mercy Mercy Don Covay (Atlantic)

32. Open The Door To Your Heart Darrell Banks (Stateside)

33. A Little Piece Of Leather Donnie Elbert (Sue)

34. Go Now Bessie Banks (Red Bird)

35. Searching For My Love Bobby Moore (Chess)

36. You Can't Sit Down Phil Upchurch Combo (HMV)

37. The Duck Jackie Lee (Fontana)

38. Doctor Love Bobby Sheen (Capitol)

39. She Blew A Good Thing The American Poets (London)

40. Watch Your Step Bobby Parker (Sue)

41. Love Ain't Nothin' Johnny Nash (Pye Int)

42. Randy Earl Jean (Colpix)

43. Rancid Polecat Ian And The Clarks (Liberty)

44. Oowee Baby I Love You Fred Hughes (Fontana)

45. A Touch Of Venus Sandy Wynns (Fontana)

46. Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood Nina Simone (Phillips)

47. Ain't Love Good, Ain't Love Proud Tony Clark (Pye Int)

48. I've Got A Woman Jimmy McGriff (Sue)

49. Candy The Astors (Atlantic)

50. Smokie Joe's La La Googie Rene Combo (Atlantic)

51. Mr Bang Bang Man Little Hank (London)

52. It's Rough Out There Jerry Jackson (Cameo)

53. Oh How Happy Shades Of Blue (Sue)

54. Ain't Nobody Home Howard Tate (Verve)

55. Dimples John Lee Hooker (Stateside)

56. Long After Tonight Is Over Jimmy Radcliffe (Stateside)

57. Twine Time Alvin Cash (Stateside)

58. Lipstick Traces The O'Jays (Liberty)

59. Let The Good Times Roll Bunny Sigler (Cameo Parkway)

60. There's Nothing Else To Say Baby The Incredibles (Stateside)

61. Peaches And Cream The Ikettes (Stateside)

62. What's Wrong With Me Baby The Invitations (Stateside)

63. Hole In The Wall The Packers (Pye Int)

64. Finders Keepers Gloria Jones (Stateside)

65. Nothing Can Stop Me Gene Chandler (Stateside)

66. See You At The Go Go Dobie Gray (Pye Int)

67. Love Makes The World Go Round Deon Jackson (Atlantic)

68. Cool Jerk The Capitols (Atlantic)

69. The In Crowd Ramsey Lewis Trio (Chess)

70. Rescue Me Fontella Bass (Chess)

71. 60 Minutes Of Your Love Homer Banks (Liberty)

72. Sweetest Thing This Side Of Heaven Chris Bartley (Cameo)

73. A L'il Loving Sometimes Alexander Patton (Capitol)

74. You've Got To Pay The Price Al Kent (Track)

75. Make Me Yours Bettye Swann (CBS)

76. The Pain Gets A Little Deeper Darrow Fletcher (London)

77. Talk Of The Grapevine Donald Height (London)

78. Always Something There To Remind Me Lou Johnson (London)

79. Steal Away Jimmy Hughes (Pye Int)

80. Yes I'm Ready Barbara Mason (London)

81. Gee Whiz Carla Thomas (Atlantic)

82. My Girl Sloopy The Vibrations (London)

83. Gypsy Woman The Impressions (HMV)

84. You Don't Know Like I Know Sam And Dave (Atlantic)

85. I'll Take Good Care Of You Garnett Mimms (UA)

86. Nothing Takes The Place Of You Toussaint McCall (Pye Int)

87. The 81 Candy And The Kisses (Cameo)

88. Mr Pitiful Otis Redding (Atlantic)

89. This Can't Be True Eddie Holman (Cameo)

90. You Got Too Much Going For You Jimmy Beaumont (London)

91. Help Me The Spellbinders (CBS)

92. Higher And Higher Jackie Wilson (Coral)

93. That's Enough Rosco Robinson (Pye Int)

94. I Wanna Be The Manhattans (Sue)

95. Spring Birdlegs And Pauline (Sue)

96. Peace Of Mind The Magnificent Men (Capitol)

97. Hey-Sah-Lo-Nay Mickey Lee Lane (Stateside)

98. Mercy Willie Mitchell (London)

99. Gypsy Woman Derek And Patsy (Island)

100. Dr Kitch Lord Kitchener (Jump Up)

Edited July 18, 2010 by mossy

[bri phill]

No, I think you're bang right. I was 15 in 1970 and just beginning to discover Northern Soul being too young to have gone to the Wheel but I used to pester the older lads about records and some of 'em took pity on me and played me stuff. "Heaven Must Have Sent You" by The Elgins is a perfect example of a super rare Motown record which became so popular via the Northern clubs that it eventually turned into a UK Top 20 hit when Tamla Motown eventually issued it .

Some of the original Wheelies are on here. Brian "45" Phillips would be a good person to comment on Motown as he was an original Wheel DJ.

I think he's still alive...........

Ian D

I'm still alive........

I started clubbing it in late 1966 by then Motown and Atlantic was the predominant soundtrack in most Manchester clubs including The Wheel early sessions.

When I first went to the Wheel allniter the big Motown tracks were First I look at the purse,A little misunderstanding,Can You jerk like me,Whole lotta shaking going on in my heart,Just walk in my shoes,Needle inb an haystack,Really saying something, The things will keep me loving you,Sweet thing, I'll always love you,All for you,Love is like a itching in my heart, shoot your shot, I can't help myself , Headline news, I have faith in you,etc. etc.

Prior to that all the Motown stuff would have been played as new releases and eventually phased out due to overplay and the fact that all the other clubs were playing it to death also The Wheel DJs and members were discovering more obscure soul tracks.

By the time I started to DJ there in 1969 I only remember playing 6 X 6, Love is like a itching in my heart,I have faith in you, These Things will keep me loving you,Sweet thing,Keep on loving me,I can't help myself Instruemental,Just walk in my shoes,take, this heart of mine,Its so hard being a loser and the other Contours tunes although they got re- released just after and went mainstream.But by then Motown had taken over Ric Tic and I was playing all that stuff as was The Catacombs. However Paul Davis who did the first part of the niter use to play a few Motown new releases and his theme tune All for you.

It would have been a completly different scene without the Motown soundtrack that everyone tried to emulate.

Regards

Brian

[Chalky]

Sorry....l've just pmed to apologise,mate before your post....

no need to apologise and you ain't winding me up. As I said your are making this into two different arguments, what got you into the scene and would there be a scene without Motown. Now irrespective what got me into this scene I still maintain in some form or other there would be a soul music scene without Motown.

[Guest]

But what got you into the scene,Motown,Stax,Atlantic or Chess,Cadet etc......

Quadrophenia

green onions !

so probably stax !!!

Edited July 18, 2010 by mossy

[Chalky]

But what got you into the scene,Motown,Stax,Atlantic or Chess,Cadet etc......

but is that the question of this topic?

Anyway Motown wasn't the biggest influence, whether that music was influenced by Motown is a different matter. At the end of the day it was a bit of everything.

[Guest]

have you just made a list of NS tunes that are not on Motown.......Mickey Lee Lane has nothing to do with Soul Music............but l have never not danced to it!

No .... not my list

It was Randy Cozins top mod 100 chart from the 60s Mod scene.

I posted it just to point out that the beginings of the scene encompassed all the styles of Soul, labels, etc

I am not saying that the Motown sound didnt influence 1000s of other records expecially late 60s.

But the roots of the soul scene are in the mod scene - and motown was just another label right at the start.

So in my oppinion a UK 60s soul / mod scene would have still been huge without motown