Cellar Full Of Motown Volume 4

[Chalky]

Half a dozen worthwhile tracks out of what 50? Why bother? The ones any good are average at best. Like I said earlier in the topic you can see (well hear) why many were canned. Think it's purely the reason they are either alternative takes or unissued that increases it's appeal.

I've listened to it and I don't care if I never hear it again to be honest. It was also a genuine copy, played in the car, despite what Tony thinks, it wasn't from amazon though.

[Linda4me]

ivy joe hunter is the stand out track for me, worth the price of the cd for that alone

Yes,a brilliant track but on the whole the cd is poor

[BrianB]

Yes,a brilliant track but on the whole the cd is poor

Looks like I'm on my own, but I like it.

I love Chuck's I'd Cry. Top record.

[Chris Anderton]

I got my copy last week, have only played disc one, some standout tracks but also a lot of middle of the road average early stuff too....but well worth the money of course.

I liked the Brenda Holloway -MY baby loves me on first play.

Chris

[Soulfinger]

I just got the notification from Amazon yesterday that they were shipping, so I guess that mine will finally come in time for the weekend. Can't hardly wait., as they say...

And to anyone who says they got it from Amazon prior to this week, well, I just don't believe you. Not one of the 20 or so people who I've asked, and who I know have ordered it from Amazon, have received theirs as of last weekend; why should it be any different for some others on here?

I don't give a monkey's if you believe me or not; that's where it came from. I scanned the CD's to demonstrate that they were physical copies after your economical with the truth crack. Why on earth would I lie about where it came from? The vagaries of Amazon's despatch system aren't for me to explain. I hope you enjoy it.

[Chris Anderton]

My copy came from Amazon too. Was bought for me as a Birthday pressie by my sister in law in New Zealand. Just checked with my missus and she says she even sent her a link from Amazon so she could order it.

Cheers, Chris

ps. You are a very untrusting man Tony. A couple of years ago i remember you telling me you did`nt believe me when i said there was a vocal of 6x6...then everyone confirmed John Pugh had an acetate. I would`nt make this stuff up mate...!

Edited September 10, 2010 by Chris Anderton

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

You are a very untrusting man Tony. A couple of years ago i remember you telling me you did`nt believe me when i said there was a vocal of 6x6...then everyone confirmed John Pugh had an acetate. I would`nt make this stuff up mate...!

I still don't believe that there's a real vocal of 6 x 6 - surely the Cellarful team would have unearthed it by now if it was genuine...

Talking of Cellarful, Amazon has finally shipped it, and I spent the whole weekend enjoying the vast majority of it.

Out of the 50 tracks I would say that fewer than 10 are ordinary or worse, at least 20 are as good as anything that has already appeared in the series to date. Of that 20 at least 10 are up there with the very best of all preiously issued or previously unissued Motown recordings. I'm talking about the Vandellas (sensational), the Vows (brilliant), Carolyn Crawford (wow), Four Tops (fantastic), Eddie Holland, Oma Heard, Holland-Dozier/LaBrenda Ben, Chuck Jackson, Earl Van Dyke and two incredible Fantastic Four cuts, and that's without mentioning Debbie Dean, Gladys, the Miracles, the Monitors and a bunch of others that are right on the money. If they had been the only good tracks on the CD it would still represent a bargain at Amazon's price of £6.99.

To me there's no real evidence that this series has run its course, merely that it's moving away from catering primarily to Northern fans and into a more diverse realm of unissued Motown. Of course, the apathy shown on here could just be a result of people getting blase about unissued material now that it's so easy to come by. And people do get blase, sad to say. I'm willing to bet that, had this been Vol. 2 in the sries, there wouldn't have been anything close to the amount of indifference and negativity that's been shown on here.

Me, I can't wait for Volume 5!

[Guest SteveC]

Surprised no one has mentioned the Edwin Starr track. Personally thought that was strong!!!

Edited September 13, 2010 by SteveC

[Marc Forrest]

I still don't believe that there's a real vocal of 6 x 6 - surely the Cellarful team would have unearthed it by now if it was genuine...

Not so sure on that one Tony. I remember negotiating with the guys at Motown/Universal when I wanted to get the rights to relase an unreleased Eddie Holland track on my label. They said "we can`t find the title neither in our files nor on any tapes..the tune in question is not existent" I answered it is well in existence as I have the original Jobete acetate in my hands while we speak. Still they couldn`t find it. And what they can`t find (in their own vaults) just simply doesn`t exist (for them).

Marc

[Guest Paul]

...Me, I can't wait for Volume 5!

Me too, Tony. But let's hope it doesn't take three years. It's a bit like waiting for Christmas.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Not so sure on that one Tony. I remember negotiating with the guys at Motown/Universal when I wanted to get the rights to relase an unreleased Eddie Holland track on my label. They said "we can`t find the title neither in our files nor on any tapes..the tune in question is not existent" I answered it is well in existence as I have the original Jobete acetate in my hands while we speak. Still they couldn`t find it. And what they can`t find (in their own vaults) just simply doesn`t exist (for them).

Marc

As you know, Marc, I deal with repertoire on a daily basis in my line of work. I know how often tapes are mistitled and erroneously miscredited, often at source and decades ago. I imagine that what Universal couldn't find is your Eddie Holland track under the title that you know it by, rather than not being able to find it at all.

The difference between something like that and this contentious, alleged 6 By 6 vocal is that your Eddie Holland exists and 6 By 6 probably does not, despite people's assertions that they know a man who knows a man who knows a man who walked by a man who bought a pint for a man who went to school with a man who cleans the windows for a man who ran over a man who did a favour for a man who may or may not own a legitimate acetate of 6 By 6.

[Chris Anderton]

The difference between something like that and this contentious, alleged 6 By 6 vocal is that your Eddie Holland exists and 6 By 6 probably does not, despite people's assertions that they know a man who knows a man who knows a man who walked by a man who bought a pint for a man who went to school with a man who cleans the windows for a man who ran over a man who did a favour for a man who may or may not own a legitimate acetate of 6 By 6.

...............

Tony, exactly what is it about this 6x6 vocal track owned by John Pugh that makes you doubt its existance, even though loads of people on here have seen and heard it? Is it simply because you haven`t heard of it before or is there another specific reason you doubt its existance?

Agree with you re the quality of the CD though, also i think you are right about people betting blase about new material, imagine how we would have felt about a CD of "new" motown stuff ten years ago!

Chris

[Chalky]

Pretty sure the acetate to 6x6 got an airing at the 100 Club once upon a time. It does exist but would appear to be a waste of time trying to convince you Tony.

As for unissued Motown, there's plenty that can't be found it would appear, alternate takes of Suspicion is one for a start, one which even those who have been through the vaults haven't come across, think there is at least two takes not in the public domain....or widely at least. Now I would buy that cd comp.

I still maintain that the latest offering, as good as the artists may be is only average. Some of the tracks are pleasant enough, a few are good but by and large it is an average compilation...IMHO of course. I will of course give it another listen just to confirm my beliefs. On the evidence of what I heard the other week I can wait another three years for the next one.

[Chalky]

Agree with you re the quality of the CD though, also i think you are right about people betting blase about new material, imagine how we would have felt about a CD of "new" motown stuff ten years ago!

Chris

Good unissued Motown has been introduced to the scene for 30 years. Folk have been going through the vaults for years. Motown missed the boat big style with these packages, most of good stuff was already out there. There's still good stuff that hasn't been officially released on cd yet.

[Britmusicsoulfan]

Hi All,

I've finally had a listen to both discs. While there are definitely some clunkers on this, the standout track for me (and the one I've popped in just to play this track) is David Ruffin - In The Cool Of The Night -- it ticks all the boxes for me!

Tim

[Pete S]

I don't believe there's a 6 By 6 vocal either. Not a real one. Maybe John's is a Soussan one or something along those lines?

I mean who's it meant to be by? Tony Turner? Did he record anything else at Motown?

[Sebastian]

I mean who's it meant to be by? Tony Turner? Did he record anything else at Motown?

Don't know if it's the same guy, but there's a Tony Turner that is supposed to be David Ruffin's godson and apparently also workded as a Motown road manager.

Interview with him:

https://www.classicba...rInterview.html

He's also written some books about The Temptations and The Supremes:

https://www.amazon.co...t_athr_dp_pel_1

Edited September 14, 2010 by Sebastian

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

The difference between something like that and this contentious, alleged 6 By 6 vocal is that your Eddie Holland exists and 6 By 6 probably does not, despite people's assertions that they know a man who knows a man who knows a man who walked by a man who bought a pint for a man who went to school with a man who cleans the windows for a man who ran over a man who did a favour for a man who may or may not own a legitimate acetate of 6 By 6.

...............

Tony, exactly what is it about this 6x6 vocal track owned by John Pugh that makes you doubt its existance, even though loads of people on here have seen and heard it? Is it simply because you haven`t heard of it before or is there another specific reason you doubt its existance?

!

Chris

...In a word, Chris - everything!

As I've said on here before, the title "6 By 6" is a reference to the 12 musicians (six members of the Funk Brothers and the six horn players) who are featured on the EVD and the Motown Brass record. It was written as an instrumental, by two non lyricists, rather than being a vocal track with the singer taken off and EVD added on later. There is certainly no reason for a legitimate vocal version to exist and certainly not one that mentions the words Six By Six" in its title or lyric.

It's true that there is precedent for vocal versions of instrumentals, but the instrumentals mostly have been big chart hits before someone writes a lyric to them. "6 By 6" wasn't any kind of a hit anywhere in the world on its first go round and the idea of a Jobete-published songwriter putting a lyric to it is thus too far fetched for me to believe in the existence of a legitimate vocal version, no matter how many people claim to have seen or heard it...

...as we've seen on this very thread, there are a lot of liars on the soul scene!

Of course, I will be prepared to issue an unreserved apology to everyone I've doubted if I ever find indisputable evidence that I am wrong (and I have been known to be wrong, much as it pains me to admit it...)

[Pete S]

...In a word, Chris - everything!

As I've said on here before, the title "6 By 6" is a reference to the 12 musicians (six members of the Funk Brothers and the six horn players) who are featured on the EVD and the Motown Brass record. It was written as an instrumental, by two non lyricists, rather than being a vocal track with the singer taken off and EVD added on later. There is certainly no reason for a legitimate vocal version to exist and certainly not one that mentions the words Six By Six" in its title or lyric.

It's true that there is precedent for vocal versions of instrumentals, but the instrumentals mostly have been big chart hits before someone writes a lyric to them. "6 By 6" wasn't any kind of a hit anywhere in the world on its first go round and the idea of a Jobete-published songwriter putting a lyric to it is thus too far fetched for me to believe in the existence of a legitimate vocal version, no matter how many people claim to have seen or heard it...

...as we've seen on this very thread, there are a lot of liars on the soul scene!

Of course, I will be prepared to issue an unreserved apology to everyone I've doubted if I ever find indisputable evidence that I am wrong (and I have been known to be wrong, much as it pains me to admit it...)

Plus he must be a f*cking midget if his walls are only 6 by 6...

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi All,

I've finally had a listen to both discs. While there are definitely some clunkers on this, the standout track for me (and the one I've popped in just to play this track) is David Ruffin - In The Cool Of The Night -- it ticks all the boxes for me!

Tim

Me too! I was surprised no one mentioned it earlier........

Ian D

[funkyfeet]

Whatever you think this Cd ticks all the boxes as a historic reference to what Motown thought was worthwhile putting into the public domain at the time it was made from a commerical point of view. These tracks didn't tick the boxes for reason we will never know or understand as we weren't part of the day to day decision making. We should just be grateful that with some of the tracks they just may have got it wrong, and agree that they got some right, remember the studio's were churning this stuff out 24hrs a day 7 days a week, they were never all going to be classics.

E21BF972-3ACA-A8AC-9DC2-5FD79E0A4DB81.03.01

[Guest Paul]

I have ten of the tracks from Vol 4 in my favourites folder in iTunes and on my iPod and I've found that I'm playing them over and over again.

I never get tired of this kind of stuff.

Great value for money.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I have ten of the tracks from Vol 4 in my favourites folder in iTunes and on my iPod and I've found that I'm playing them over and over again.

I never get tired of this kind of stuff.

Great value for money.

I agree, Paul. Even if your 10 favourites had been the only good tracks on the whole thing that still only works out at 69.9 pence per track for each great, previously unheard Motown gem from the company's golden era.

I've now got my own personal total up to 30-35 'must own' tracks, and around a dozen 'non-life changing but still nice to have', leaving just 2 or 3 that don't float my personal boat but that might well float somebody else's.

How good is that for under seven quid? Me I'd've paid out that just to get 'Lead Me And Guide Me' I think!

TONE

[Guest Paul]

I agree, Paul. Even if your 10 favourites had been the only good tracks on the whole thing that still only works out at 69.9 pence per track for each great, previously unheard Motown gem from the company's golden era.

I've now got my own personal total up to 30-35 'must own' tracks, and around a dozen 'non-life changing but still nice to have', leaving just 2 or 3 that don't float my personal boat but that might well float somebody else's.

How good is that for under seven quid? Me I'd've paid out that just to get 'Lead Me And Guide Me' I think!

TONE

By the way, Tony, I don't mind admitting that I was so impatient (...as young men are!) waiting for my copy from Amazon (...which STILL hasn't arrived) that I also bought the digital downloads from iTunes.

That's what I've been playing for the last ten days.

So I've paid twice but I'm still happy.

I also love the brilliant "Lead Me And Guide Me", credited to Holland & Dozier. At first I assumed it was a tagging error, wondering if it was a young Martha Reeves but I worked it out.

I still think the song should be called "I've Got A Right To Cry".

And I reckon "Miss Lonely Hearts" by The Vandellas would have been a hit (especially in the UK) if it had been issued at the time.

The two tracks by the Fantastic Four are gems, especially "Take Him Back If It Makes You Happy" which was I also love by The Contours (available on an earlier volume).

I really hope most soul DJs are playing these tracks in the clubs.

Paul

[Goldsoul]

they should have left it at 2 volumes really...I won't even buy this, the best stuff came out years ago.

Pete- The current volume is awesome.

Universal generally have their heads up the backside, but Paul Nixon has dug deep on this one.

Shame they don't have the decency and nous to contact Chris King, the real originator of most of this stuff. He still has piles of unreleased tracks.

Edited September 14, 2010 by The Golden 101

[Guest]

Plus he must be a f*cking midget if his walls are only 6 by 6...

The often quoted line in the alleged " vocal " has always made me smile , that the chap warbles on that his room was

6 x 6

Malc

[Guest Paul]

The often quoted line in the alleged " vocal " has always made me smile , that the chap warbles on that his room was

6 x 6

Malc

...Garden shed, maybe?

Mine is five by seven ...not that I actually measured it (he he)

[Guest]

...Garden shed, maybe?

Mine is five by seven ...not that I actually measured it (he he)

Come off it Paul ....... every bloke has measured theirs at least once

Malc

[Guest Paul]

Come off it Paul ....... every bloke has measured theirs at least once

Malc

Well Malc, I just happened to have a tape measure in my hand (as you do) so I thought... "Well, ain't nobody looking, so..." (you can guess the rest)

[Guest]

Well Malc, I just happened to have a tape measure in my hand (as you do) so I thought... "Well, ain't nobody looking, so..." (you can guess the rest)

In my case Paul , when I measured mine , someone was looking .

I measured it , and told them the size ........ to which they replied " I'm not having that "

Enough of the innuendos : this is supposed to be a serious thread ........

Malc

[Soulfinger]

...as we've seen on this very thread, there are a lot of liars on the soul scene!

Of course, I will be prepared to issue an unreserved apology to everyone I've doubted if I ever find indisputable evidence that I am wrong (and I have been known to be wrong, much as it pains me to admit it...)

You do make me laugh Tony. . Is this indisputable .......I suppose you'll say I could have edited it.

Your order #026-6279784-4127528 (received August 09, 2010)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qty Item Price Delivery Subtotal

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Amazon.co.uk items (Sold by Amazon EU S.a.r.L.):

1 A Cellarful Of Motown Vol. 4 £6.99 1 £6.99

Dispatched via Royal Mail (estimated arrival date: September 01, 2010).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Item Subtotal: £5.95

Delivery and handling: £1.24

VAT: £1.26

Pre-order Guarantee: £0.00

Total: £8.45

Our Pre-order Price Guarantee covers one or more item(s) in this order.

[Guest Paul]

I hope I don't get the blame for this off-topic stuff, Malc.

So let's get back to music...

This stuff about a vocal of 'Six By Six' reminds me when I was a kid, me and my mates at the Youth Centre were amazed when we first heard 'Festival Time With Words'.

That's what we called it until we knew what it was.

It seems like only yesterday sometimes.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

You do make me laugh Tony. . Is this indisputable .......I suppose you'll say I could have edited it.

Your order #026-6279784-4127528 (received August 09, 2010)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qty Item Price Delivery Subtotal

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Amazon.co.uk items (Sold by Amazon EU S.a.r.L.):

1 A Cellarful Of Motown Vol. 4 £6.99 1 £6.99

Dispatched via Royal Mail (estimated arrival date: September 01, 2010).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Item Subtotal: £5.95

Delivery and handling: £1.24

VAT: £1.26

Pre-order Guarantee: £0.00

Total: £8.45

Our Pre-order Price Guarantee covers one or more item(s) in this order.

...I was actually talking about apologising if I am ever proven wrong wrong about the allegedly genuine '6 By 6' vocal, rather than people who claim to have bought the CD from Amazon before it was actually released. I've moved on from that now...

...However, as you correctly infer, editing an e-mail is not the hardest thing in the world to do...

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

This stuff about a vocal of 'Six By Six' reminds me when I was a kid, me and my mates at the Youth Centre were amazed when we first heard 'Festival Time With Words'.

That's what we called it until we knew what it was.

...big difference there is that 'Festival Time With Words' actually does exist, Paul! :lol:

[timthemod]

Being a motown fan as well as liking mod/northern fans, this series offers great value for money and the cd's not just aimed at Northern collectors. As a viable commercial product it has to appeal to different music fans. I personally like the Frank Wilson track which has potential on the mod/r&b scene.

On the subject of the 6X6 vocal, can a sample of the track not be put up on then we can all judge if it's genuine, until then I'm in agreement Tony. Let us all see and hear the proof and then we can decide.

[Pete S]

...big difference there is that 'Festival Time With Words' actually does exist, Paul! :lol:

To Win Your Heart has never sounded right to me; always sounds like it should have been left as an instrumental as the song seems to have been written around the tune and it's very clumsy. The inst is great though.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

To Win Your Heart has never sounded right to me; always sounds like it should have been left as an instrumental as the song seems to have been written around the tune and it's very clumsy. The inst is great though.

...In full agreement on both points, mate.

The mix on TWYH is very iffy, too, whereas "Festival Time" is right on the money sonically - especially on the Gordy pressing.

[funkyfeet]

Regards the vocal to 6 by 6 this has being doing the rounds since the early 70's when it was rumoured to be a Musicor release by Tony Fox, if it was out there I'm sure we would all be aware of it as it would have definately been played out, as 6 by 6 was so popular back then.

E21BF972-3ACA-A8AC-9DC2-5FD79E0A4DB81.03.01

[TOAD]

wasnt the vocal a joke in a magazine by Siz from manchester, thats how i reamber it.

[Modernsoulsucks]

wasnt the vocal a joke in a magazine by Siz from manchester, thats how i reamber it.

You may be confusing this with "Cigarette Ashes" by David Graham started by Dave McCadden in his mag.

Rumours of Tony Turner "My room is [6 by6]" have been around since early to mid 70's.

ROD

[Sean Hampsey]

You may be confusing this with "Cigarette Ashes" by David Graham started by Dave McCadden in his mag.

Rumours of Tony Turner "My room is [6 by6]" have been around since early to mid 70's.

ROD

Definitely early 70's first time I heard the rumour Rod (72/73).

Tony Turner on Musicor!!!

Think after 40 years, if it was out there it would have turned up by now!

Sean

[Modernsoulsucks]

Definitely early 70's first time I heard the rumour Rod (72/73).

Tony Turner on Musicor!!!

Think after 40 years, if it was out there it would have turned up by now!

Sean

I have this recollection of being at the Wheatsheaf in London around late 72/early 73 [when I lived down there] and looking at a Sousson list which contained some highly dubious titles and Im wondering if that was on it?

ROD

[Ian Dewhirst]

Definitely early 70's first time I heard the rumour Rod (72/73).

Tony Turner on Musicor!!!

Think after 40 years, if it was out there it would have turned up by now!

Sean

I dunno Sean. There's a supposedly unbelievable Sonny Turner record on Musicor that Levine used to have that's never turned up since.........

The Tony Turner was always a stretch though wasn't it? Actually I think a vocal to "6 by 6" would sound about as effective as Laura Lee, i.e. like an afterthought......

Ian D

[Chalky]

Being a motown fan as well as liking mod/northern fans, this series offers great value for money and the cd's not just aimed at Northern collectors. As a viable commercial product it has to appeal to different music fans. I personally like the Frank Wilson track which has potential on the mod/r&b scene.

On the subject of the 6X6 vocal, can a sample of the track not be put up on then we can all judge if it's genuine, until then I'm in agreement Tony. Let us all see and hear the proof and then we can decide.

plenty have seen and heard the acetate in question, some very knowledgeable collectors at that so why doubt what some are saying simply because you (and some others) haven't seen or heard it?

It isn't very good mind

[Chalky]

I dunno Sean. There's a supposedly unbelievable Sonny Turner record on Musicor that Levine used to have that's never turned up since.........

The Tony Turner was always a stretch though wasn't it? Actually I think a vocal to "6 by 6" would sound about as effective as Laura Lee, i.e. like an afterthought......

Ian D

The 6x6 vocal isn't very good at all Ian, in fact it is pretty bad. There is a previous topic about this and John Pugh has an input top the topic too.

[Sean Hampsey]

Actually I think a vocal to "6 by 6" would sound about as effective as Laura Lee, i.e. like an afterthought......

Ian D

Ahaha very interesting Ian.

I bloody love Laura Lee (on pretty much everything she's ever done) but you might be the first person who's ever agreed with me that on 'To Win Your Heart' she ruins a bloody good instrumental!

Sean

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

plenty have seen and heard the acetate in question, some very knowledgeable collectors at that

...Liars, all of em!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I dunno Sean. There's a supposedly unbelievable Sonny Turner record on Musicor that Levine used to have that's never turned up since.........

Yes, but that does exist....

The Tony Turner was always a stretch though wasn't it? Actually I think a vocal to "6 by 6" would sound about as effective as Laura Lee, i.e. like an afterthought......

Ian D

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

.

I bloody love Laura Lee (on pretty much everything she's ever done) but you might be the first person who's ever agreed with me that on 'To Win Your Heart' she ruins a bloody good instrumental!

Sean

Can you put me down as the third person please, then, Brother H?

[Sean Hampsey]

Can you put me down as the third person please, then, Brother H?

You're in Brother R.

Sean