Coasters Vinyl Boot?

[boba]

Hi. I bought a 45 on ebay that seems suspect and I'm trying to find out any info on a VINYL boot of the coasters "crazy baby". Manship bootleg guide only makes reference to a styrene boot. Tim Brown guide, however, says this: "This is a tricky one. Certainly one boot is on an issue with Monarch number 95372 and another is on vinyl with a moulded label which isn't quite even around the edges. ..."

Does anyone have more info on the VINYL boot of this record? The record I bought on ebay has the following characteristics:

1. label has weird ink smudging / fading or possibly transferred print from another copy which I haven't seen before on atco labels. It should be totally glossy and not transfer ink like this. In this case, the label looks almost like a jamaican labels in the way that the ink has smeared (it's not papery looking like a jamaican label though, it still looks at least sort of glossy).

2. sound is muffled sounding

3. deadwax has hand-written on one side, 65L-9290-1, handwritten on the other side 65L-9291-1. What's strange is that the label says 65C, not 65L on both sides. Nothing else is written or stamped. I know that stuff like this happens on legit records, but the mismatch makes it more suspicious to me.

4. The yellow on the label is not dark enough (looks more lemon colored than the darker yellow of atco labels) and doesn't extend down far enough. The font (or spacing between the letters at least) looks "funny".

I looked on popsike and there were enough label variations that it was clear that this record was pressed at different places with different label styles, etc. I couldn't find this particular label design in popsike though. Also, I'm not sure if the label is "not quite even around the edges" or not.

Does anyone have any insight into this? Thanks in advance for your help.

[Kris Holmes]

can you post up a pic of the label?

[boba]

can you post up a pic of the label?

my scanner made the yellow appear darker than it is but even in the scan you can see it's lighter than regular atco labels.

[Guest Dante]

Don't think it's a boot, Bob.

I've got an original Atco right here and the yellow looks much lighter than this, lemon-looking as you say. Maybe different pressing plants?

The ink stains probably were most likely done at the printing stage. Probably the run out of ink and had to re-print it, happens in every in every printing press workshop (is that the name?). Note that the stains in the right hand stops exactly in the division between yellow and white, so maybe they printed the top part, run out of print, and then printed the bottom part.

Don't know, though

[boba]

Don't think it's a boot, Bob.

I've got an original Atco right here and the yellow looks much lighter than this, lemon-looking as you say. Maybe different pressing plants?

The ink stains probably were most likely done at the printing stage. Probably the run out of ink and had to re-print it, happens in every in every printing press workshop (is that the name?). Note that the stains in the right hand stops exactly in the division between yellow and white, so maybe they printed the top part, run out of print, and then printed the bottom part.

Don't know, though

Thanks a lot. The only other thing was that it was muffled sounding, I have to listen again (too late to play it now without pissing off my neighbors), maybe I was being too critical given the labels? Anyone else have an opinion? Thanks.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Thanks a lot. The only other thing was that it was muffled sounding, I have to listen again (too late to play it now without pissing off my neighbors), maybe I was being too critical given the labels? Anyone else have an opinion? Thanks.

Hi Bob,

Brownie sold me a copy that's excatly like yours about 20 years ago. I tried to return it to him as a boot because its unlike any other Atco single I own (and I own about 100-150 singles on the label), It didn't look right, it didn't feel right and most of all it didn't sound right. He assured me then that it wasn't a boot and wouldn't take it back.

I've heard plenty of copies of the styrene version, and I've also now heard a pristine transfer of the original mastertape. To me, it sounds like this variation was dubbed from another 45. I've shown and played it to every collector I know down the years, and they've all said 'boot'.

I think personally that Brownie might have sold a few of these under the impression that they were not boots, and is covering his ass in his book by trying to vouch for them.

I wouldn't mind turning the floor over to John Manship for further clarification if he's still lurking on here...

[JOE TORQUAY]

Hi Bob,

Brownie sold me a copy that's excatly like yours about 20 years ago. I tried to return it to him as a boot because its unlike any other Atco single I own (and I own about 100-150 singles on the label), It didn't look right, it didn't feel right and most of all it didn't sound right. He assured me then that it wasn't a boot and wouldn't take it back.

I've heard plenty of copies of the styrene version, and I've also now heard a pristine transfer of the original mastertape. To me, it sounds like this variation was dubbed from another 45. I've shown and played it to every collector I know down the years, and they've all said 'boot'.

I think personally that Brownie might have sold a few of these under the impression that they were not boots, and is covering his ass in his book by trying to vouch for them.

I wouldn't mind turning the floor over to John Manship for further clarification if he's still lurking on here...

hi,

i've had what i always thought was a re-issue for many years and it looks a bit like this one,

it's got 65l - 9290 in the run-out and the lable is a bit off center,

joe.

[Reforee]

I dont have an ATCO like this but have an Arista,Epic and a few others that I picked up in Kingston , Jamaica, I was told they were Jamaican issues ? Wink Wink.

I visited loads of shops and in one I asked about the Arista and the Epic one and they told me they download the sound and label through a computor and scanner and hey presto one 45 is made. You can have one copy or as many as you want.

The amount of pressing plants (backs of record shops that are about was quite staggering.

Not sure what this Atco actually is but it sounds like something as above.

Hope this info helps

Dave

aka TMIB

[John Elias]

Hi Boba,if you want JM's opinion you would be best to pm or email his office,personally I would go for boot on this the defining factor being the muffled sound quality,just my humble opinion,John Elias.

[Pete S]

It's a boot. The vinyl ones came out at the same time as the styrene ones, I've had one for 30 years at least

[Sebastian]

3. deadwax has hand-written on one side, 65L-9290-1, handwritten on the other side 65L-9291-1. What's strange is that the label says 65C, not 65L on both sides. Nothing else is written or stamped. I know that stuff like this happens on legit records, but the mismatch makes it more suspicious to me.

As Pete wrote: your copy is a boot.

Above is the most obvious giveaway. The original has got 65C-9290-1 in the deadwax. It's all explained in the latest Manship price guide.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Sebastian

[Kris Holmes]

how many times have you seen a C that looks like an L in someone's handwriting though, just saying. But in any case the fact that it is poor sounding on a major label like Atco would definitely lead me to question it's authenticity. If you are unhappy with the fidelity & feel it was at least graded wrongly I'd say ask for your money back.

[boba]

how many times have you seen a C that looks like an L in someone's handwriting though, just saying. But in any case the fact that it is poor sounding on a major label like Atco would definitely lead me to question it's authenticity. If you are unhappy with the fidelity & feel it was at least graded wrongly I'd say ask for your money back.

I scanned it high res enough that you can blow it up and read the deadwax yourself if you want. It's clearly an "L" in this particular case.

Thanks for everyone's help.

[funkyfeet]

Not commenting on whether it's a boot or not but I had a load of Coasters R&R 45's (Not Crazy Baby) with flakey Atco labels also had numerous other Acto labels like this so it's not unusal.

[Prophonics 2029]

I have plenty of Atco Atlantic records that sound fuzzy or muffled as Tony says it could be how they transferred for the master from Acetate or tape to cutter, had 4 copies of Still Remember The Feeling and they all fuzzed up.

[Pete S]

OK Coasters Crazy Baby, vinyl boot.

Has a little bit of print on the label which looks like it came off the record above it when being pressed.

If you look very, very closely, the label is indeed not perfectly round.

Look in the run off and you'll see it may well be pitted, small dots.

The only writing in the run off is

65L - 9290 - 1

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

...any chance of that refund now, Tim?

[John Elias]

mmm!

https://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Coasters-Crazy-Baby-Northern-Soul-/270588973262?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Records&hash=item3f005c10ce

[Tony Smith]

I've got a white demo, not to hand though, doesn't it have 'AT' in the run-out? I also had a copy like the one you have Bob, with the repeated title on the flip, I sold it it as a boot a few years back.

[dthedrug]

It's a boot. The vinyl ones came out at the same time as the styrene ones, I've had one for 30 years at least

HI ALL - I AM SORRY TO SAY PETE! BUT I DISAGREE, AND IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT AND LATER PRESS. IT'S DEFIANTLY NOT A 1st ISSUE THATS A FACT, AS REGARDING THE BOOTLEG, AND I ALWAYS PICK A COPY UP, WHENEVER I SAW ONE YEARS AGO. IT'S NOTHING LIKE THE ONE IN THE SCAN, I HAVE A SIMILAR COPY AS THE ONE SHOWN.

AND I HAVE HAD 2 OR 3 COPIES OF THE 1st RUN, WHICH I FIRST GOT IN 1973 FROM MICK SMITH AFTER ONE OF HIS US of A TRIPS, WHEN THE RECORD WAS STILL A TOP MECCA SOUND AND COVER UP? 1st PRESS HAS LARGE DECCA (TYPE) WRITING SAME AS LEE ROY, EARL GRANT, BIG LETTERS, THE COPY ABOVE WAS CIRCULATING AROUND 77/8 WAY AFTER THE BOOTLEG, THE PROBLEM IS IT DON'T LOOK TO GOOD AND AS SUCH PEOPLE ASSUME IT'S A COUNTERFEIT COPY! WHAT YOU HAVE TO ALSO CONSIDER BY 68/9 THE GROUP WERE GOING THROUGH THE SAME RUT AS THE DRIFTERS AND THEY ONLY KEPT GOING BECAUSE OF THERE UK TOURING, AND WERE VERY "IN" WITH THE SOUL CROWED IN 68/9 AFTER DOING GIGS LIKE THE NIGHT OWL & TWISTED WHEEL-CLUB, IF YOU HAD RECORDS LIKE "COME ON OVER TO MY PLACE" YOU HA A RARE RECORD IN 69! THE COASTERS FAILED TO CONNECT IN THE UK, JUST PUTTING OUT RE WORKINGS OF OLD HITS, SO THE 1st RUN WAS THE ONLY MAIN RUN AND HAD ALL THE HALLMARKS OF QUALITY CONTROL, AND AS WE NO THERE ARE A VERE'S SMALL AMOUNT OF 1st RUN 45s IN VINYL WITH LARGE LETTER WRITING, THIS LATER VI,NYL LACKS ALL THE QUALITY CONTROL AND WAS PROBABLY PRESSED UP FOR THE UK? WHO KNOWS, BUT THE BOOTLEG IS JUST THAT, THE LAST BOOTLEG I SOLD TO MALCOLM OF JOHN & MALCOLM SHOP HE HAD A BUYER WHO OFFED HIM 30 QUID FOR IT, I SAID OK ! DAVE KIL

[bri pinch]

HI ALL - I AM SORRY TO SAY PETE! BUT I DISAGREE, AND IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT AND LATER PRESS. IT'S DEFIANTLY NOT A 1st ISSUE THATS A FACT, AS REGARDING THE BOOTLEG, AND I ALWAYS PICK A COPY UP, WHENEVER I SAW ONE YEARS AGO. IT'S NOTHING LIKE THE ONE IN THE SCAN, I HAVE A SIMILAR COPY AS THE ONE SHOWN.

AND I HAVE HAD 2 OR 3 COPIES OF THE 1st RUN, WHICH I FIRST GOT IN 1973 FROM MICK SMITH AFTER ONE OF HIS US of A TRIPS, WHEN THE RECORD WAS STILL A TOP MECCA SOUND AND COVER UP? 1st PRESS HAS LARGE DECCA (TYPE) WRITING SAME AS LEE ROY, EARL GRANT, BIG LETTERS, THE COPY ABOVE WAS CIRCULATING AROUND 77/8 WAY AFTER THE BOOTLEG, THE PROBLEM IS IT DON'T LOOK TO GOOD AND AS SUCH PEOPLE ASSUME IT'S A COUNTERFEIT COPY! WHAT YOU HAVE TO ALSO CONSIDER BY 68/9 THE GROUP WERE GOING THROUGH THE SAME RUT AS THE DRIFTERS AND THEY ONLY KEPT GOING BECAUSE OF THERE UK TOURING, AND WERE VERY "IN" WITH THE SOUL CROWED IN 68/9 AFTER DOING GIGS LIKE THE NIGHT OWL & TWISTED WHEEL-CLUB, IF YOU HAD RECORDS LIKE "COME ON OVER TO MY PLACE" YOU HA A RARE RECORD IN 69! THE COASTERS FAILED TO CONNECT IN THE UK, JUST PUTTING OUT RE WORKINGS OF OLD HITS, SO THE 1st RUN WAS THE ONLY MAIN RUN AND HAD ALL THE HALLMARKS OF QUALITY CONTROL, AND AS WE NO THERE ARE A VERE'S SMALL AMOUNT OF 1st RUN 45s IN VINYL WITH LARGE LETTER WRITING, THIS LATER VI,NYL LACKS ALL THE QUALITY CONTROL AND WAS PROBABLY PRESSED UP FOR THE UK? WHO KNOWS, BUT THE BOOTLEG IS JUST THAT, THE LAST BOOTLEG I SOLD TO MALCOLM OF JOHN & MALCOLM SHOP HE HAD A BUYER WHO OFFED HIM 30 QUID FOR IT, I SAID OK ! DAVE KIL

GREAT READING DAVE, BUT STILL NOT AN ORIGINAL PRESS

BRI PINCH

SUNDAY CHILLOUT@HORSE AND GROOM, 20TH JUNE, EAST LAITH GATE, DONCASTER.

[dthedrug]

GREAT READING DAVE, BUT STILL NOT AN ORIGINAL PRESS

BRI PINCH

SUNDAY CHILLOUT@HORSE AND GROOM, 20TH JUNE, EAST LAITH GATE, DONCASTER.

HI ALL...TRUTH BE TOLD. IF YOU LIKE THE RECORD..AS WE ALL DO! THE INTRO ALONE BRINGS WALL TO WALL TARTON CARPET AND THE AMBIONCE OF BLACKPOOL MECCA (WHO'S TIE WAS IT, THAT APERED LIKE MAGIC AT THE DOOR TO GET IN??) I DIGRESS IN ROMANCE.

IT'S BETTER TO HAVE THE VINYL "JAMACIAN PRESS", THAN THE RUBBISH SOUNDING BOOT. ME THINKS

THERE WAS A ATCO DEMO THE OTHER WEEK ON RANKING JOHNNY BOYS AUCTION, I THINK, A BIT SPECIAL!

HERE ANOUTHER OLD BOOTLEG!

Sir DAVES UPPERCUT KNOCKOUT! AKA KIL

[boba]

HI ALL...TRUTH BE TOLD. IF YOU LIKE THE RECORD..AS WE ALL DO! THE INTRO ALONE BRINGS WALL TO WALL TARTON CARPET AND THE AMBIONCE OF BLACKPOOL MECCA (WHO'S TIE WAS IT, THAT APERED LIKE MAGIC AT THE DOOR TO GET IN??) I DIGRESS IN ROMANCE.

IT'S BETTER TO HAVE THE VINYL "JAMACIAN PRESS", THAN THE RUBBISH SOUNDING BOOT. ME THINKS

THERE WAS A ATCO DEMO THE OTHER WEEK ON RANKING JOHNNY BOYS AUCTION, I THINK, A BIT SPECIAL!

HERE ANOUTHER OLD BOOTLEG!

Sir DAVES UPPERCUT KNOCKOUT! AKA KIL

the just brothers looks like a rare lupine original and not a bootleg

[Bob]

HI ALL...TRUTH BE TOLD. IF YOU LIKE THE RECORD..AS WE ALL DO! THE INTRO ALONE BRINGS WALL TO WALL TARTON CARPET AND THE AMBIONCE OF BLACKPOOL MECCA (WHO'S TIE WAS IT, THAT APERED LIKE MAGIC AT THE DOOR TO GET IN??) I DIGRESS IN ROMANCE.

IT'S BETTER TO HAVE THE VINYL "JAMACIAN PRESS", THAN THE RUBBISH SOUNDING BOOT. ME THINKS

THERE WAS A ATCO DEMO THE OTHER WEEK ON RANKING JOHNNY BOYS AUCTION, I THINK, A BIT SPECIAL!

HERE ANOUTHER OLD BOOTLEG!

Sir DAVES UPPERCUT KNOCKOUT! AKA KIL

As Boba says that Just Brothers is no boot it's the first issue on Lupine, with Things Will Get Better on the flip.

Edited June 12, 2010 by bob

[Guest east rob]

my scanner made the yellow appear darker than it is but even in the scan you can see it's lighter than regular atco labels.

looks like the one i sold on ebay around 3 years ago with the over printed label.

i seem to remember i bought it of jm. not bought as a boot.

[boba]

Just following up to say that the ebay seller gavin6783, Gavin was super honest, helpful, and friendly. Thanks.

[Weingarden]

I'm holding a copy in my hand that I'm 99 percent certain is original based on where I got it (American dealer with a run of Coasters singles 20 years ago). The notable differences:

1. 65C instead of 65L as noted. Very distinctly different.

2. In the 9290 marking, the 2 on my copy isn't looped on the lower left like yours; the bottom stroke is straight across, horizontal. A different style of 2.

3. The runout groove itself on my copy is different: a very tight grouping of four grooves close to the label.

4. My copy has other markings in the deadwax that seem to be missing from yours: a hand-drawn LW, a hand-drawn AT right near it, a hand-drawn M or W on the opposite end, and on the "Crazy Baby" side only what appears to be a tiny S inside a tiny circle or spade shape.

[boba]

I'm holding a copy in my hand that I'm 99 percent certain is original based on where I got it (American dealer with a run of Coasters singles 20 years ago). The notable differences:

1. 65C instead of 65L as noted. Very distinctly different.

2. In the 9290 marking, the 2 on my copy isn't looped on the lower left like yours; the bottom stroke is straight across, horizontal. A different style of 2.

3. The runout groove itself on my copy is different: a very tight grouping of four grooves close to the label.

4. My copy has other markings in the deadwax that seem to be missing from yours: a hand-drawn LW, a hand-drawn AT right near it, a hand-drawn M or W on the opposite end, and on the "Crazy Baby" side only what appears to be a tiny S inside a tiny circle or spade shape.

Thanks Matt. The problem is that if you look at popsike, there's clearly many legit variations of the record from different plants, so I'm not sure if all legit presses were done with the same plates as yours. I think it's safe to say that no legit press has 65L though. Thanks.