Well Respected Records Dealers?

[Rbman]

Should big record dealers declare on Ebay or elsewhere that the record they are selling is a second issue or boot?

[Steve G]

Should big record dealers declare on Ebay or elsewhere that the record they are selling is a second issue or boot?

Of course.

Why? You been had by someone?

[Guest Dante]

Big and small record dealers should.

[Rbman]

This is what John Manship says "People who buy second issues for large sums only have themselves to blame"...this was about a Buster & Eddie Cant Be Still on Class second issue placed on Ebay by Craig Moerer.

[Guest Dante]

This is what John Manship says "People who buy second issues for large sums only have themselves to blame"...this was about a Buster & Eddie Cant Be Still on Class second issue placed on Ebay by Craig Moerer.

Way out of context, he also said something along the lines of "the information is out there for everyone". He wasn't saying dealers should mis-advertise. He was saying that you've got the information, and if you want to pay 200 quid for a boot then it's your money and your decision.

About a month ago he found out he sold a boot in an auction two years before or something. The real price was 10 and he refund the guy. I think that says it all.

[Rbman]

Way out of context,

Really? here is his context.........

"Craig Moerer is the most honest of record dealers and would never knowingly mislead. He employs 3 times the staff i do and many of these are employed in solely processing records, and to my knowledge none of them are Northern Soul experts.

People who buy second issues for large sums only have themselves to blame, the info is out there to differentiate between bootlegs, re-issues and orginals to avoid mistakes like this. Equally the info is there for Craig and his staff also."

Just a secondhand car dealer IMO

[Guest Dante]

Really? here is his context.........

"Craig Moerer is the most honest of record dealers and would never knowingly mislead. He employs 3 times the staff i do and many of these are employed in solely processing records, and to my knowledge none of them are Northern Soul experts.

People who buy second issues for large sums only have themselves to blame, the info is out there to differentiate between bootlegs, re-issues and orginals to avoid mistakes like this. Equally the info is there for Craig and his staff also."

Just a secondhand car dealer IMO

I think my first post was clear enough.

Now I understand why John stopped posting in here.

[Chalky]

the thing is you can't mention the record is a boot or it is removed, that is why they say re-issue. 2nd issue if you don't know the facts could be misleading, I'd never use the term on ebay, can give the impression it is a legit second issue.

[Rbman]

I think my first post was clear enough.

Now I understand why John stopped posting in here.

I work in the legal profession so i would like to think i have a balanced opinion. John Manship posted on this subject today ...... so just when did he stop posting?

And why you're first post?....Big and small dealers must be honest unless....?

[Guest Dante]

I work in the legal profession so i would like to think i have a balanced opinion. John Manship posted on this subject today ...... so just when did he stop posting?

And why you're first post?....Big and small dealers must be honest unless....?

John Manship stopped posting on a regular basis months ago (maybe a year, can't recall).

I meant my first post on the Manship quote, sorry:

Way out of context, he also said something along the lines of "the information is out there for everyone". He wasn't saying dealers should mis-advertise. He was saying that you've got the information, and if you want to pay 200 quid for a boot then it's your money and your decision.

About a month ago he found out he sold a boot in an auction two years before or something. The real price was 10 and he refund the guy. I think that says it all.

[Guest Dante]

To be honest I think this'll be the last post I do on this site..I'm far too busy to explain things that have been in place for an age and have always had a full explanation on the site for everyone to read.

That was on June 12th 2009, he's made 32 posts since then, most of them regarding his sales lists or info on boots / originals.

Man I have too much time

[Steve G]

Really? here is his context.........

"Craig Moerer is the most honest of record dealers and would never knowingly mislead. He employs 3 times the staff i do and many of these are employed in solely processing records, and to my knowledge none of them are Northern Soul experts.

People who buy second issues for large sums only have themselves to blame, the info is out there to differentiate between bootlegs, re-issues and orginals to avoid mistakes like this. Equally the info is there for Craig and his staff also."

Just a secondhand car dealer IMO

Just read the other thread.

CM does seem to be being a bit careless -with WOmbat and Buster & Eddie,,,,,,,Anyway would have thought before anyone parts with $200 for a record they look to check if its an orig / 1st issue etc. So can see both sides of the argument,

[Rbman]

Just read the other thread.

CM does seem to be being a bit careless -with WOmbat and Buster & Eddie,,,,,,,Anyway would have thought before anyone parts with $200 for a record they look to check if its an orig / 1st issue etc. So can see both sides of the argument,

Funny Steve....everyone seems to think it is wrong ...unless its CM........

[Steve G]

Funny Steve....everyone seems to think it is wrong ...unless its CM........

Is he still bumping out all those cheap copies of "Teacherman" he got from Soul Bowl for lots of money ?

Edited May 7, 2010 by Steve G

[Rbman]

the thing is you can't mention the record is a boot or it is removed, that is why they say re-issue. 2nd issue if you don't know the facts could be misleading, I'd never use the term on ebay, can give the impression it is a legit second issue.

This was an Ebay offer for a clear legit second issue Chalky....for John Manship to defend his silence on the subject was IMO wrong.

[Chalky]

This was an Ebay offer for a clear legit second issue Chalky....for John Manship to defend his silence on the subject was IMO wrong.

ahh right

[Rbman]

Is he still bumping out all those cheap copies of "Teacherman" he got from Soul Bowl for lots of money ?

You known he does...but if people want to pay silly money for a disco tune while he has a tea chest full of them then more fool them......

Edited May 7, 2010 by Rbman

[paultp]

Anything bought off ebay is done in the spirit of caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

Anyone who thinks that ebay sellers are honest (or should be) needs to wake up and smell the cocoa IMHO.

A fool and his moola etc

Edited May 8, 2010 by paultp

[Dave Rimmer]

Have I missed something here. I gather someone paid a lot of money for a legit second issue that Craig Moerer sold on ebay.

What has this got to do with John Manship ?

[Bitchdj]

Anything bought off ebay is done in the spirit of caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

Anyone who thinks that ebay sellers are honest (or should be) needs to wake up and smell the cocoa IMHO.

A fool and his moola etc

MOST e-bay sellers ARE honest or else no-one would risk buying ANYTHING off there... YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE WE ARE ALL AT IT !!! its only a verry small percentage that cannot be trusted and the clue lies in their feedback etc etc

[boba]

Really? here is his context.........

"Craig Moerer is the most honest of record dealers and would never knowingly mislead. He employs 3 times the staff i do and many of these are employed in solely processing records, and to my knowledge none of them are Northern Soul experts.

People who buy second issues for large sums only have themselves to blame, the info is out there to differentiate between bootlegs, re-issues and orginals to avoid mistakes like this. Equally the info is there for Craig and his staff also."

Just a secondhand car dealer IMO

He had up the 2nd press of the rappers on roach, I emailed them early in the auction to make them aware of it, they did not revise the listing in any way and it went for way too much money.

[dthedrug]

Should big record dealers declare on Ebay or elsewhere that the record they are selling is a second issue or boot?

:hatsoff2:My Old Friend Mick Smith Has Always given this info, plus his records are cheaper than most, I can fully garantteehe is a safe dealer, other dealers i would recomend are Dave stutt from stoe and ian clarke norfolk Wil Johnson Decibel records and if you have deep pockets Ranking Johnny Manship is a Mo st Descriptive site that alyas a good reed and pete smith always has good reckords for sale, I fully recomend all of them to cater for your needs:ph34r: DAVE

[Guest]

He had up the 2nd press of the rappers on roach, I emailed them early in the auction to make them aware of it, they did not revise the listing in any way and it went for way too much money.

BOb,

I'm suprised, maybe Craig not "hands on" enough these days, he does have a massive set-up and does not process records himself. But he does have our Manship's Price Guide 5 which covers in detail 1000s of bootlegs with fully 1100+ full colour scans, so there is no excuse for not acting upon informative emails, which I'm sure he'll be the first to admit. I shall be speaking to him this week on another Vinyl selling problem (fraudulent Pay Pal & Credit Card scams) that seem to be prevelent at the moment, so i will mention it to him. He a good honest guy who will I'm sure address this issue.

Likewise if a collector does not see the need to have the same info at his fingertips, then arguably he has not taken due diligence in his buying. I want to state all dealers have a 100% responsibilty to provide the correct details for every record they sell. Misleading description like "original recording" that seem to litter dealoer sites on GEMM are misleading.

With all the under-hand tricks in the vinyl collector scene I'm surprised Craig has come under fire. Ask Chris Gwatkin, Hasse Huss, Carl Willingham and most probably most of this forum, how they have been misled by some well-known dealers, or more recently all the unfortunates who trusted a producer and bought the Robby Lawson re-press as an original.

My advice would be if in doubt, just check it out, I'm only a phone call away, and I do that type of query almost hourly. The info is there for both collectors and dealers, the impression coming through is a minority of dealers find it more profitable not to know, and collectors feels £29 would be better spent on another record. There is no disputing the info on Northern Soul re-issues, counterfeits and 2nd. presses is available and anyone who is involved in Record Collecting should seek it out.

I have had "My Collecting Northern Soul" definative guide to Bootlegs with a single page dedicated to each record, on hold now for almost two years as I can't seem to find the time to put it into book form all the scans and matrix details are on file and ready to go, but new bootlegs seems to be made almost weekly thing . It seems the market needs a clear guide specifically dealing with this age old problem. I'll get my finger out, and make a start..

John

[Dave Pinch]

You known he does...but if people want to pay silly money for a disco tune while he has a tea chest full of them then more fool them......

steady on now rock and roll man:ph34r:

dave

[Guest gordon russell]

At the end of the day as the americans say.....money talks and bulls**t walks......if you don,t know your onions and pay a shed load for a boot....tough!!!......there are plenty on this site that would put someone right if they asked the question about a record....atb peggy

[Steve G]

Likewise if a collector does not see the need to have the same info at his fingertips, then arguably he has not taken due diligence in his buying. John

That's my point, a fool and his money etc. Any other collectible, you'd be very careful I'd have thought. If you went to an antiques fair and someone said "It's an original Clarice Cliff Steele Teapot £700 to you Guv, but as your Missus is so good looking £675 to you, can't say fairer than that" you'd want to check the authenticity of the item, so why is record buying any different?

Three examples now of Craig getting it wrong, so he needs to "tighten the drum up" on his operation. Being big is no ecxuse for a string of errors.

Steve

Edited May 8, 2010 by Steve G

[Russoul1]

some "reissuses" "counterfiets" do get through the net, for example the joe douglas - crazy things belguim boot, which until quite

recently was never thought to have been booted was believed to have been purchased from a known site for £200 a few years before.

Edited May 8, 2010 by russoul1

[Bigsoulman]

some "reissuses" "counterfiets" do get through the net, for example the joe douglas - crazy things belguim boot, which until quite

recently was never thought to have been booted was purchased from JMs site for £200 a few years before being known.

What does this boot look like Russ?

[Bigsoulman]

What does this boot look like Russ?

Ignore that post Russ, found what I was looking for

[Manfromsoul45s]

That's my point, a fool and his money etc. Any other collectible, you'd be very careful I'd have thought. If you went to an antiques fair and someone said "It's an original Clarice Cliff Steele Teapot £700 to you Guv, but as your Missus is so good looking £675 to you, can't say fairer than that" you'd want to check the authenticity of the item, so why is record buying any different?

Three examples now of Craig getting it wrong, so he needs to "tighten the drum up" on his operation. Being big is no ecxuse for a string of errors.

Steve

There's gotta be something dodgy about that Steve. Cliff Steele's never made teapots...

[Guest]

some "reissuses" "counterfiets" do get through the net, for example the joe douglas - crazy things belguim boot, which until quite

recently was never thought to have been booted was purchased from JMs site for £200 a few years before being known.

[/quote)

Thanks Russ we now know Joe Douglas, certainly wasn't sold by us, appreciate your edit. John

Edited May 8, 2010 by john manship

[paultp]

MOST e-bay sellers ARE honest or else no-one would risk buying ANYTHING off there... YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE WE ARE ALL AT IT !!! its only a verry small percentage that cannot be trusted and the clue lies in their feedback etc etc

The main point I was trying to make was that buying off ebay is "buyer beware". I didn't mean to suggest all ebay sellers were dishonest, I meant that people shouldn't think all ebay sellers are honest.

ebay feedback can't really be trusted anymore as they remove feedback from sellers where they think the seller has attempted a resolution. I bought a cheap record recently which turned up battered, the seller offered a refund that didn't include postage (and took the attitude that he couldn't care less what happened). I pointed out that there was no point returning it as it would cost me more than the record. I left neutral feedback explaining this and ebay removed it and wouldn't explain why. Also, sellers with high levels of feedback tend to absorb negs and they disappear after a year. I've come across sellers who will say anything to get the neg removed and then screw you afterwards and are pleased with themselves, only one or two though.

[funkyfeet]

Always try to list my items an honestly as possibly, but we are all human and make mistake, tell me someone who hasn't, if pointed out I will always amend a listing, did it here on SS with the Petals, had a few enquiries then releasied that I had just put Mercury and not the multi coloured label which I should have done, amended correctly once pointed out.

Also myself included I don't know everything, so I have no doubt I will make mistakes in the future, as stated there are also new boots/re-issues out everyday it's hard to keep up.

Also some boot are rarer than originals and are collectable in their own right, which is why some go for money, and of course $200 for a boot may seem cheap to some people when an Original is $5000.

Buyer should always be aware, I've lost count of the people on SS who say they have been ripped of one way or another on ebay over the years, and most of you have a great deal of knowledge so you have obviously made mistakes yourself, the deal was too good you couldn't resist, do your homework is always the key. Ask questions, read feedback, ask a friend.

[Funky 4 Corners]

re Craig Moerer, he's a dead straight guy and would be very insulted if he thought someonr had accused him of knowingly selling a boot. I recently bought an Atlantic 45 from him that was issued / pressed in the late 50s but this copy was thinish vinyl and mint cond. Suspicious I thought and contacted him and he offered me a full refund immediately but as it turned out (after checking with a couple of guys in the US) it was most likely a legit copy pressed at Monarch.

[Dave Fleming]

I can see both sides of the argument,i agree that the info is out there for buyers but the same info is out there for sellers also,i know not everybody is aware of SS,but Jm`s books should be well kown to most collectors/sellers to source this type of info from,

but surely less knowledgeable buyers would put there trust in well respected sellers to be selling original 1st press records unless stated,this post is not aimed at anybody in this thread,just my general opinion on the whole collecting game.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Dave Fleming

[funkyfeet]

I can see both sides of the argument,i agree that the info is out there for buyers but the same info is out there for sellers also,i know not everybody is aware of SS,but Jm`s books should be well kown to most collectors/sellers to source this type of info from,

but surely less knowledgeable buyers would put there trust in well respected sellers to be selling original 1st press records unless stated,this post is not aimed at anybody in this thread,just my general opinion on the whole collecting game.

Lots of ebayer sellers out there that have been trading for years haven't a clue about soul music it's just a record to them. I most probably list incorrectly pop items, you can't know everything. I would guess the majority of ebay seller have never ever heard of JM or even SS.

[Premium Stuff]

A few years ago now I bought a Richard 'Popcorn' Wylie "Rosemary What Happened" WDJ from Craig.

When I got it I wasn't convinced about it. So I checked out the deadwax markings against JM's Bootleg Guide. This indicated it was the counterfeit.

I got straight onto Craig and it was sorted out immediately with no hassle whatsoever.

Admittedly, this is a tough one as it's a good fake copy - but any dealer should be going out of their way to use the information that is available to us all as collectors (and available at modest cost compared to the price of the vinyl we buy and sell).

Cheers

Richard

[Dazdakin]

Well in my opinion Craig Moron is a complete twat!

I brought from him off his set sale list Malibus "Gee Baby" demo $55

When it arrived it was an issue and not the demo.

His reply was yes it was an issue and had meant to change the listing before it was sold, would not budge on price and said he would refund but i had to pay the postage to return it.

Some 4 months after it is still for sale on his list as a demo!!

Greedy banker!!

[KevH]

Well in my opinion Craig Moron is a complete twat!

I brought from him off his set sale list Malibus "Gee Baby" demo $55

When it arrived it was an issue and not the demo.

His reply was yes it was an issue and had meant to change the listing before it was sold, would not budge on price and said he would refund but i had to pay the postage to return it.

Some 4 months after it is still for sale on his list as a demo!!

Greedy banker!!

Are you trying your best to be offensive!!!?.CM selling a demo for $55? .Sure it wasn't the boot for that price? Better check.

I admire CM and JM.Both have forgotten more than most will know.Even so,they can make mistakes.The pressing/2nd issue/repress area is a minefield.

Buyer beware.Do your homework.If still not sure - buy it....OR DON'T.No one's twisting arms here.

If you make a cock up - tough.Swings and roundabouts.....

[boba]

BOb,

I'm suprised, maybe Craig not "hands on" enough these days, he does have a massive set-up and does not process records himself. But he does have our Manship's Price Guide 5 which covers in detail 1000s of bootlegs with fully 1100+ full colour scans, so there is no excuse for not acting upon informative emails, which I'm sure he'll be the first to admit. I shall be speaking to him this week on another Vinyl selling problem (fraudulent Pay Pal & Credit Card scams) that seem to be prevelent at the moment, so i will mention it to him. He a good honest guy who will I'm sure address this issue.

Likewise if a collector does not see the need to have the same info at his fingertips, then arguably he has not taken due diligence in his buying. I want to state all dealers have a 100% responsibilty to provide the correct details for every record they sell. Misleading description like "original recording" that seem to litter dealoer sites on GEMM are misleading.

With all the under-hand tricks in the vinyl collector scene I'm surprised Craig has come under fire. Ask Chris Gwatkin, Hasse Huss, Carl Willingham and most probably most of this forum, how they have been misled by some well-known dealers, or more recently all the unfortunates who trusted a producer and bought the Robby Lawson re-press as an original.

My advice would be if in doubt, just check it out, I'm only a phone call away, and I do that type of query almost hourly. The info is there for both collectors and dealers, the impression coming through is a minority of dealers find it more profitable not to know, and collectors feels £29 would be better spent on another record. There is no disputing the info on Northern Soul re-issues, counterfeits and 2nd. presses is available and anyone who is involved in Record Collecting should seek it out.

I have had "My Collecting Northern Soul" definative guide to Bootlegs with a single page dedicated to each record, on hold now for almost two years as I can't seem to find the time to put it into book form all the scans and matrix details are on file and ready to go, but new bootlegs seems to be made almost weekly thing . It seems the market needs a clear guide specifically dealing with this age old problem. I'll get my finger out, and make a start..

John

I buy from him all the time and I have never had a problem returning anything and he is a conservative grader and I don't think he's the person running the auctions. But what I reported was true. He currently has it in stock explicitly listed as "2nd pressing" so maybe someone convinced him as otherwise since but if you find the auction in popsike all it says is "keb darge spin". I'm pretty sure I even got a response confirming that it was the 80s style press (I can try to find the email). He also sold the mixed emotions recent repress as an "80s press" and got money for that too. I don't think it's intentional fraud but the person doing the auctions is not knowledgable. I have one other bad experience but I'll keep it to myself.

[Chalky]

if a record is a second issue, legitimately done by the label there is nothing to stop the seller saying so, if it is a boot, reissue should suffice, the prospective buyer can then do his homework, if not no ones fault if things go wrong but his/her own. I know the info is out there but the sellers information should be as clear as it could possible be, saves any hassle later if some arises.

[Pete S]

Are you trying your best to be offensive!!!?.CM selling a demo for $55? .Sure it wasn't the boot for that price? Better check.

I admire CM and JM.Both have forgotten more than most will know.Even so,they can make mistakes.The pressing/2nd issue/repress area is a minefield.

Buyer beware.Do your homework.If still not sure - buy it....OR DON'T.No one's twisting arms here.

If you make a cock up - tough.Swings and roundabouts.....

I thought that myself, malibus demo should be about 125 dollars

[Pete S]

Craig Moerer is a great guy and a top seller, his integrity is faultless in my opinion, however he should know the score with this Buster & Eddie record with all his experience and be honest about it, and if he didn't know because one of his employees was dealing with it, he should really be around to check their work.

[NEV]

Craig Moerer is a great guy and a top seller, his integrity is faultless in my opinion, however he should know the score with this Buster & Eddie record with all his experience and be honest about it, and if he didn't know because one of his employees was dealing with it, he should really be around to check their work.

No axe to grinde with Mr Moerer ..well apart from his prices for set sale items are somewhat ludicrous

However..... he has had that copy of Toby Bullard on ebay, and his website, for long enough, at a ridiculous price and no mention of it being a boot...and he knows

https://www.recordsbymail.com/search.php

he wants more for it than the real thing

[Guest martyn]

Think we are missing a point here . The point being that he DID reply to a prospective buyer that it was a second issue . Even gong so far as telling the buyer what an original issue & demo looked like . So , why in the first instance wasnt this listed as a second issue ? I have no idea at what point in the auction the prospective buyer asked the question , but , again , if the information was there why was it not listed as a second issue if the intention was honourable ?........It may be beneficial for some of the posters to view the original (no pun intended ) thread with the link to the auction before posting .

Edited May 8, 2010 by martyn

[Dazdakin]

I thought that myself, malibus demo should be about 125 dollars

Yes i agree with both of you it was listed very cheap which is why i brought the damn thing at that price, still dont make it right though that when it arrives its not as listed.......does it??

[Agentsmith]

seems to me that selling via SS is the best option for anyone as everyone knows everyone else...so to speak,...less of a minefield than ebay?

rob.h