Is R'nb More To Do With Northern Soul

[Richard Bayley]

.. It seems to be a case of some people wanting to change the template.

Personally, I wouldn't mind it if the template was lobbed off the front of the stage at every nighter I attend, if it lets DJ's spread their wings a bit What was it about the "Stafford generation" (for want of a better term) who had R&B and Modern tunes in the same room as well as more "traditional" Northern sounds?, Just more adventurous? Of course the template changes - thank God - it's called evolution. Lots of folk seem to want to define Northern Soul as "NS that I like", rather than "records that have been played on the NS scene"

It's like Japanese soldiers emerging out of the Jungle after World War II ....... "Yes, they play the odd R&B, Modern and Latin spin these days, and there's even events whare the emphasis is more on soul than beat these days....... no, we didn't burn the Casino down deliberately, but don't worry you can listen to all your old favourites at a 1001 venues across the country... if you insist you can wear your old uniform"

[Raremusicdirect]

Its all Rock And Roll Jim but not as we know it

Can't really add much to these dis-jointed debate.............still havent had any RnR examples that have been played on the Northern scene..........I'd be interested in those..........just to say Yeah or Nah too.........

Many Stateside, including a friend of mine, stated "its all RnB or Rock n Roll"............his main disctinction being the move from primarily black artists performing RnB with mainly local success to the white kids taking it National as Rock n Roll and although some sweeping generalisation there is a point to that statement (imho)......

He didnt have any distinction between his RnB and all our divisions of RnB / Soul / Northern / Rare Soul etc etc........just didnt see them

I accept we have splits now, mightly fine, that have evolved to where they are. I believe the early clubs played a real wide mix, including Jamacian Ska..............its as we move forward that things have narrowed / specialised..........

Happy to be corrected / here your views...............

[Guest dundeedavie]

.I have some rare gospel music somewhere which I might introduce to the RARE SOUL SCENE.Got to make sure I'm the first to play it.

hey you're only about 10 years late but then you knew that, but then i'm talking R&B scene again

[Wiggyflat]

Personally, I wouldn't mind it if the template was lobbed off the front of the stage at every nighter I attend, if it lets DJ's spread their wings a bit What was it about the "Stafford generation" (for want of a better term) who had R&B and Modern tunes in the same room as well as more "traditional" Northern sounds?, Just more adventurous? Of course the template changes - thank God - it's called evolution. Lots of folk seem to want to define Northern Soul as "NS that I like", rather than "records that have been played on the NS scene"

It's like Japanese soldiers emerging out of the Jungle after World War II ....... "Yes, they play the odd R&B, Modern and Latin spin these days, and there's even events whare the emphasis is more on soul than beat these days....... no, we didn't burn the Casino down deliberately, but don't worry you can listen to all your old favourites at a 1001 venues across the country... if you insist you can wear your old uniform"

/quote]

There's thousands and thousands of lesser played/obscure/quality uptempo sixties/seventies records out there so why play r&b.The problem is when the template gets so distorted it is not recognised.The odd R&B,Modern and Latin spins.More the majority and you can forget Modern as well but add dreary midtempo.Ah that same old hackneyed reposte.....listen to your 500/wear your baggies and patches/Wigan Casino blah/Joe 90.It seems people seem to think if you are unhappy about popcorn/midtempo/rare soul/doo wop played at northern soul gigs you must be in the other camp ie only liking the 500 etc.

[Wiggyflat]

lsn't Ralf Donner RNR?

Edited April 14, 2010 by wiggyflat

[Dazdakin]

I aint getting no takers here.

Can anybody tell me which artists have gone into a record studio to record a "northern soul " record???

NONE!!

Thats the difference people, as regards northern v r n b. People who record r n b set out to record r n b whereas northern just happens because its a beat within the music and if it aint got that certain beat then it aint northern, thats also why alot of r n b has crossed over to become northern classics because it just so happened it had that beat to it, and that r n b is fine and dandy because it has the beat, but r n b that can only ever be r n b because it is r n b is most defo not fine and dandy.

I dont give a fiddlers if i get called a dinosaur and living in days gone by, its what i like, no love, that is northern soul.

Yes i am very narrow minded when it comes to music, i only like northern, nothing else, simple, so when the scene that i know and love starts to change in the way that it has done over the last few years then yes it bothers me in a big way, and yes will fight my corner and tell it how i see it in whatever way it takes.

[Guest]

[edit]

forget it - cause i don't really care

Edited April 14, 2010 by mikecook

[grantdyche]

This one is a bit Rock and Roll I think

I can not comment on the RnB discussion,Not my field sorry

Grant

[Guest Beeks]

Fact of the matter is the average soulie knows very little about R&B music simply because the stuff they play in the main rooms at soul nights/nighters is very limited and not a true representation of the genre...like Davie has said in a previous thread...it's not all 'Catch That Teardrop'

The current spins in R&B might not be acceptable on the soul scene but to be honest we really don't care...we have our own clubs where the floor gets packed regardless....those that dip their toe in and have a listen might be pleasantly surprised...those that don't want to know...good for you...I don't like modern/disco shite either

These arguements just seem to go round and round...fortunately the world doesn't end when we don't like things we're not accustomed to

[Guest gordon russell]

Then why f**king comment on it...stick to asking people what coloured socks they wear...it's more your level

[Guest JIM BARRY]

I aint getting no takers here.

Can anybody tell me which artists have gone into a record studio to record a "northern soul " record???

NONE!!

Thats the difference people, as regards northern v r n b. People who record r n b set out to record r n b whereas northern just happens because its a beat within the music and if it aint got that certain beat then it aint northern, thats also why alot of r n b has crossed over to become northern classics because it just so happened it had that beat to it, and that r n b is fine and dandy because it has the beat, but r n b that can only ever be r n b because it is r n b is most defo not fine and dandy.

I dont give a fiddlers if i get called a dinosaur and living in days gone by, its what i like, no love, that is northern soul.

Yes i am very narrow minded when it comes to music, i only like northern, nothing else, simple, so when the scene that i know and love starts to change in the way that it has done over the last few years then yes it bothers me in a big way, and yes will fight my corner and tell it how i see it in whatever way it takes.

TOMMY HUNT, LOVING ON THE LOSING SIDE

WIGANS OVATION....SKIING IN THE SNOW

EVELYN THOMAS......WEAK SPOT

THE EXCITERS....BLOWIN UP MY MIND

[Guest gordon russell]

Not having a pop at anyone,but it always makes me laugh when folk say how much they love norman soul and that usually includes all the pop sh8te that was played back in the day. The fact a lot of this pop shite is still loved and hailed as northern......example JAY TRAYNOR UP AND OVER........shite back then and sh*te now,but it,s loved as northern soul (this is just an example)..........yet when some great R&B gets played....another example (minnie eperson)........these northern fans call it sh*te........just a thought,always makes me smile....dave

[Guest dundeedavie]

I aint getting no takers here.

Can anybody tell me which artists have gone into a record studio to record a "northern soul " record???

NONE!!

Thats the difference people, as regards northern v r n b. People who record r n b set out to record r n b whereas northern just happens because its a beat within the music and if it aint got that certain beat then it aint northern, thats also why alot of r n b has crossed over to become northern classics because it just so happened it had that beat to it, and that r n b is fine and dandy because it has the beat, but r n b that can only ever be r n b because it is r n b is most defo not fine and dandy.

I dont give a fiddlers if i get called a dinosaur and living in days gone by, its what i like, no love, that is northern soul.

Yes i am very narrow minded when it comes to music, i only like northern, nothing else, simple, so when the scene that i know and love starts to change in the way that it has done over the last few years then yes it bothers me in a big way, and yes will fight my corner and tell it how i see it in whatever way it takes.

The thing about R&B and the fact that some people don't like it ... it's not the fault of R&B , it's the fault of the Northern Soul DJ's who didn't have the "feeling" for it but played it anyway cos it got good dancefloor action ....

So look at your own DJ's before looking at ours

[manus]

There's thousands and thousands of lesser played/obscure/quality uptempo sixties/seventies records out there so why play r&b.The problem is when the template gets so distorted it is not recognised.The odd R&B,Modern and Latin spins.More the majority and you can forget Modern as well but add dreary midtempo.Ah that same old hackneyed reposte.....listen to your 500/wear your baggies and patches/Wigan Casino blah/Joe 90.It seems people seem to think if you are unhappy about popcorn/midtempo/rare soul/doo wop played at northern soul gigs you must be in the other camp ie only liking the 500 etc.

[Guest Phoenix8049]

Well thank you everybody for all your comments and explainations.

It seems like the scene has moved on from how i knew it.

I am not saying that is a bad thing,it's just not what got me into the scene in the first place.

Maybe its time to admit, i am getting old and stick to the nostalgia trip like a lot of my non Northern soul friends do.

I always used to think i was a bit more hip than them.even liking mainstream music up until the mid to late 90s.

Then suddenly you got boy and girl dance troups posing as bands,and rock bands who cannot play a note posing as bands.

I dont just want to go to a venue where they play just oldies that i know and can dance too,that finishes at midnight.

And i have to go home like Cinderella.

I want to go to a nighter that plays old stuff and new,that i can get excited about and dance until 8a.m.

When the Paramedics are called to give me Oxygen.

I can sit at home in my rocking chair and listen to rare soul,R&B,Modern soul Reggae Rock and roll country,techno dance. 24/7. god knows i have tons of all that stuff here.

Stu

[Guest]

Please, please can someone close this thread........round and round and round we go. There's no such thing as northern soul anyway, it's simply a phrase used to describe RnB records that were popular in certain places at a certain time.....

[grantdyche]

Nope,you're not convincing me that RNB is Northern Soul.....Jay Traynor isn't Soul but l tell you what.....................lt's Northern Soul!

Yes it is

[Julie Moore]

Well thank you everybody for all your comments and explainations.

It seems like the scene has moved on from how i knew it.

I am not saying that is a bad thing,it's just not what got me into the scene in the first place.

Maybe its time to admit, i am getting old and stick to the nostalgia trip like a lot of my non Northern soul friends do.

I always used to think i was a bit more hip than them.even liking mainstream music up until the mid to late 90s.

Then suddenly you got boy and girl dance troups posing as bands,and rock bands who cannot play a note posing as bands.

I dont just want to go to a venue where they play just oldies that i know and can dance too,that finishes at midnight.

And i have to go home like Cinderella.

I want to go to a nighter that plays old stuff and new,that i can get excited about and dance until 8a.m.

When the Paramedics are called to give me Oxygen.

I can sit at home in my rocking chair and listen to rare soul,R&B,Modern soul Reggae Rock and roll country,techno dance. 24/7. god knows i have tons of all that stuff here.

Stu

Stu dont be like that its defeastsist there`s a whole world of great music out there

[Stevie]

I aint getting no takers here.

Can anybody tell me which artists have gone into a record studio to record a "northern soul " record???

NONE!!

Thats the difference people, as regards northern v r n b. People who record r n b set out to record r n b whereas northern just happens because its a beat within the music and if it aint got that certain beat then it aint northern, thats also why alot of r n b has crossed over to become northern classics because it just so happened it had that beat to it, and that r n b is fine and dandy because it has the beat, but r n b that can only ever be r n b because it is r n b is most defo not fine and dandy.

I dont give a fiddlers if i get called a dinosaur and living in days gone by, its what i like, no love, that is northern soul.

Yes i am very narrow minded when it comes to music, i only like northern, nothing else, simple, so when the scene that i know and love starts to change in the way that it has done over the last few years then yes it bothers me in a big way, and yes will fight my corner and tell it how i see it in whatever way it takes.

Why do you feel that you have to 'fight your corner'? Just enjoy the music you like and attend the venues that play it. I love R&B and do just that.

In answer to your first question, Ian Levine will provide a list..

[Guest Beeks]

There's thousands and thousands of lesser played/obscure/quality uptempo sixties/seventies records out there so why play r&b.

Surely the question should be why not?

Plenty of R&B DJs that will spin a few early soul records into their sets...but not much the other way around...why is R&B such a dirty word? Considering you can trace most of the big soul artists to their R&B roots?

It baffles me that it seems to be the sub genre that everyone loves to lay into considering some of the shite that masquerades as soul

Of course most of us have a penchant for popcorn and maybe a smattering of garage...i'll be the first to admit I have some rockabillyesque 45s in my box...but to label real gritty R&B 'without soul' is just total bullshit i'm afraid

[grantdyche]

Thank you Captain Snore There's 27 users on at the moment and cos you're fed up doesn't mean we are

The police will be here soon:thumbsup:

[Guest gordon russell]

Nope,you're not convincing me that RNB is Northern Soul.....Jay Traynor isn't Soul but l tell you what.....................lt's Northern Soul!

there ya go..........ya wouldn,t give a fig for something like dewy black take love where l find it.....one of the best upbeat/uptempo r&b dancers i,ve ever fookin heard,but you love some out and out pop shite like jay traynor........because you call it norman soul.......you win fella.....theres no answer to that

[Guest Phoenix8049]

lt wasn't me that said that RNB was a crime against Soul Music ....

The RnB police wont arrest you webby just

as long as you put down that copy of Jay Traynor

and come quietly hehe.

Stu

[Guest]

i played this at a gig last year (red label ) and lost the floor in an instant - to the call of, "you can get that R&B sh*te off"

[Wiggyflat]

R&B fans get annoyed at criticism because this music means as much to us as the hardcore " I live and breathe northern soul " brigade ... I think also if you had come on with a valid argument or a valid question the it would have been a discussion rather than the one you did ask which was VERY badly thought out .

To be honest if that had of been your first post people would have been justified in thinking you knew sod all about soul or R&B .

But youre an r&b fan..and you play and listen to r&b.Wouldn't you be pissed off if someone went to one of youre r&b gigs and played a set of uptempo late sixties and seventies northern soul and proceeded to preach to you that it was r&b and.....why are you pissed off with it.You lot are just dinosaurs this is the new r&b its called northern soul.

[Pete Coulson]

i played this at a gig last year (red label ) and lost the floor in an instant - to the call of, "you can get that R&B sh*te off"

morons, this is a great tune

[grantdyche]

lt wasn't me that said that RNB was a crime against Soul Music ....

Got to agree really Phil,You would think from some peoples answers / replies that RnB or even RnR or and even Northern Soul was the cure for all,Its not!!

At the end of the day they are just songs with people singing them,I as I have mentioned many times before on these and many other pages like to listen and dance to Northern Soul,That does not negate the fact that other people like RnB or RnR,

Your original post about RnB relating to Northern or RnR,Has Iam afraid to say been reduced to YET AGAIN OLDIES vs NEWIES, Thats the way I view it,If Iam wrong then somebody please let me know(as Iam sure you will),

I think once again that it is time to put this little baby to sleep,

When I say oldies vs newies I can only state that I prefer the older end of the spectrum,Many people may read this and think Bullshit,That is their opinion,In 10 years time the newer end of the crew will want to listen to the oldies of their generation,Hence the popularity of the many "Old Skool" venues playing 80's stuff that you or I may call Disco

Anyroad thats how I see it

[Guest]

Thank you Captain Snore There's 27 users on at the moment and cos you're fed up doesn't mean we are

20 of those users are just checking to see if you've grown a brain cell since they last looked, hope makes fools of us all on occasion.

6 of the remaining 7 users are praying your account has been closed so that we no longer have to wade through piles of your unintelligent, inane witterings to try and find a thread worth reading.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Guest

[Guest Beeks]

Just got hold of this popcorn monster tonight...won't tell you how much I paid but worth every penny IMO...may not be soul but it's a cracker that's been on my wants for some time

[Guest]

packed in going around mid 75, ...............sarah, that why i never heard it i spose

Bloody hell mate never thought you were that old

[Guest Beeks]

20 of those users are just checking to see if you've grown a brain cell since they last looked, hope makes fools of us all on occasion.

6 of the remaining 7 users are praying your account has been closed so that we no longer have to wade through piles of your unintelligent, inane witterings to try and find a thread worth reading.

[Guest JIM BARRY]

Just got hold of this popcorn monster tonight...won't tell you how much I paid but worth every penny IMO...may not be soul but it's a cracker that's been on my wants for some time

BEEKS, THIS IS A GENUINE QUESTION,"WHAT CONSTITUTES A POPCORN RECORD" I REALLY DON'TKNOW!!

[Pete Eccles]

Just got hold of this popcorn monster tonight...won't tell you how much I paid but worth every penny IMO...may not be soul but it's a cracker that's been on my wants for some time

Ah the old Jeremy Beadle CU,

[Guest kevnewry]

Got to agree really Phil,You would think from some peoples answers / replies that RnB or even RnR or and even Northern Soul was the cure for all,Its not!!

At the end of the day they are just songs with people singing them,I as I have mentioned many times before on these and many other pages like to listen and dance to Northern Soul,That does not negate the fact that other people like RnB or RnR,

Your original post about RnB relating to Northern or RnR,Has Iam afraid to say been reduced to YET AGAIN OLDIES vs NEWIES, Thats the way I view it,If Iam wrong then somebody please let me know(as Iam sure you will),

I think once again that it is time to put this little baby to sleep,

When I say oldies vs newies I can only state that I prefer the older end of the spectrum,Many people may read this and think Bullshit,That is their opinion,In 10 years time the newer end of the crew will want to listen to the oldies of their generation,Hence the popularity of the many "Old Skool" venues playing 80's stuff that you or I may call Disco

Anyroad thats how I see it

Always been a minefield Grant, and it always will be mate.

"DANCE TO THE MUSIC...... or sit the fook down and listen" Thats what I say!!!!!

[Guest]

Just got hold of this popcorn monster tonight...won't tell you how much I paid but worth every penny IMO...may not be soul but it's a cracker that's been on my wants for some time

imho, not really the best choice of record to convince me that it has a place at a soul event - or soul forum

[Wiggyflat]

Fact of the matter is the average soulie knows very little about R&B music simply because the stuff they play in the main rooms at soul nights/nighters is very limited and not a true representation of the genre...like Davie has said in a previous thread...it's not all 'Catch That Teardrop'

The current spins in R&B might not be acceptable on the soul scene but to be honest we really don't care...we have our own clubs where the floor gets packed regardless....those that dip their toe in and have a listen might be pleasantly surprised...those that don't want to know...good for you...I don't like modern/disco shite either

These arguements just seem to go round and round...fortunately the world doesn't end when we don't like things we're not accustomed to

The average soulie knows little about R&B.Mass generalisation.I have thousands of R&B records.I like R&B.See my British Sue posts on collecting British.I like jazz especially British Jazz, Don Rendell, Ian Carr, Tubby Hayes,Stan Tracey,Joe Harriot etc.I don't expect to hear my jazz at a northern soul gig.I don't expect people to start playing Tubby Hayes and trying to tell me it's the new northern soul.Your comment we have our own clubs hits the nail on the head....if I want to listen to R&B I can go to one of these clubs or try the R&B room but don't try telling me it's northern soul or rare soul and foisting it on people at northern soul venues because it's flavour of the week.Oh and a sign that people are losing an argument is when they start calling other forms of music as "shite". There's good and bad.Geat debate by the way.

[Guest Beeks]

BEEKS, THIS IS A GENUINE QUESTION,"WHAT CONSTITUTES A POPCORN RECORD" I REALLY DON'TKNOW!!

To be honest Jimmy i'm no expert...it's a belgian thing and there are quite a few records that fall under the 'popcorn umbrella' you're best off asking Nashee on here...she's the 'Oracle' on all things in that particular area of expertise...most of it is not my bag but things like this...Freddie Neil 'Heartbreak Bound' and Jamie Coe 'Cleopatra' are brilliant and monsters on the scene

[Guest JIM BARRY]

To be honest Jimmy i'm no expert...it's a belgian thing and there are quite a few records that fall under the 'popcorn umbrella' you're best off asking Nashee on here...she's the 'Oracle' on all things in that particular area of expertise...most of it is not my bag but things like this...Freddie Neil 'Heartbreak Bound' and Jamie Coe 'Cleopatra' are brilliant and monsters on the scene

[Guest kevnewry]

Ah the old Jeremy Beadle CU,

Just noticed that quip Pete

[Guest Beeks]

imho, not really the best choice of record to convince me that it has a place at a soul event - or soul forum

Not trying to convince you of anything Mike...it's a popcorn record...just trying to get a point across that we...as an R&B crowd are a lot more receptive to several musical crossovers INCLUDING soul music...yet the NORTHERN SOUL crowd...and I do stress the Northern lot...as rare soulies tend to be a little more receptive...don't want to listen to any R&B despite the fact it was INSTRUMENTAL in the development of soul music as we know it

Go figure

[Guest Phoenix8049]

The average soulie knows little about R&B.Mass generalisation.I have thousands of R&B records.I like R&B.See my British Sue posts on collecting British.I like jazz especially British Jazz, Don Rendell, Ian Carr, Tubby Hayes,Stan Tracey,Joe Harriot etc.I don't expect to hear my jazz at a northern soul gig.I don't expect people to start playing Tubby Hayes and trying to tell me it's the new northern soul.Your comment we have our own clubs hits the nail on the head....if I want to listen to R&B I can go to one of these clubs or try the R&B room but don't try telling me it's northern soul or rare soul and foisting it on people at northern soul venues because it's flavour of the week.Oh and a sign that people are losing an argument is when they start calling other forms of music as "shite". There's good and bad.Geat debate by the way.

Well Said Wiggy.

I have always found something i like in every Genre of music you can name.

Including classical.

I believe you should widen your spectrum of music.

But maybe thats just me, being brought up thru 6 decades of music if my maths are right.

Stu

[Wiggyflat]

Not trying to convince you of anything Mike...it's a popcorn record...just trying to get a point across that we...as an R&B crowd are a lot more receptive to several musical crossovers INCLUDING soul music...yet the NORTHERN SOUL crowd...and I do stress the Northern lot...as rare soulies tend to be a little more receptive...don't want to listen to any R&B despite the fact it was INSTRUMENTAL in the development of soul music as we know it

Go figure

You don't get it.I don't want to hear R&b at a northern soul gig.I expect popcorn,mid tempo,doowop, ballads and some uptempo at a rare soul gig.Got nothing to do about being receptive.I expect to hear R&b at an R&b gig.I expect to hear a choir in church.I don't expect to hear a vicar playing Black Sabbath in church and telling me its the new gospel music and calling me unreceptive because I don't like it in church.

[Guest Beeks]

You don't get it.I don't want to hear R&b at a northern soul gig.I expect popcorn,mid tempo,doowop, ballads and some uptempo at a rare soul gig.Got nothing to do about being receptive.I expect to hear R&b at an R&b gig.I expect to hear a choir in church.I don't expect to hear a vicar playing Black Sabbath in church and telling me its the new gospel music and calling me unreceptive because I don't like it in church.

That wasn't the OPs question though was it...he was saying that R&B has more of a connection with R&R than soul...which...as far as real R&B is concerned...is utter bollocks

To answer your question R&B is rarely played in the main room of soul events anyway...bar a few overplayed watered down efforts...and you'd have to be a bit of a nob to disapprove of a second room playing alternative sounds...it's how promoters get that extra 50/100 through the door if they have a modern/R&B/Rare room

What I do know though is if they slipped in a soul record at an R&B night I wouldn't whine like a bitch which you seem to be doing

[Mike]

Here's a tip that l always give out.....if it starts webbydublin then don't go there,l'm certainly not asking you to......you'll only get disapointed.....and you'll start moaning again...and again...and again..............................

nah dont work like that

time you started to wise up how it does

ask you now drop the off topic posts in this forum

if you want to chat goto chat room or Club Place

ta

mike

[Wiggyflat]

That wasn't the OPs question though was it...he was saying that R&B has more of a connection with R&R than soul...which...as far as real R&B is concerned...is utter bollocks

To answer your question R&B is rarely played in the main room of soul events anyway...bar a few overplayed watered down efforts...and you'd have to be a bit of a nob to disapprove of a second room playing alternative sounds...it's how promoters get that extra 50/100 through the door if they have a modern/R&B/Rare room

What I do know though is if they slipped in a soul record at an R&B night I wouldn't whine like a bitch which you seem to be doing

"Whine like a bitch".You are obviously on the backfoot if it's coming down to personal insults.Nob is spelt with a K.

Edited April 14, 2010 by wiggyflat

[Guest Beeks]

"Whine like a bitch".You are obviously on the backfoot if it's coming down to personal insults.

That's right...you concentrate on the insult and not the content...and if telling you that you 'whine like a bitch' hurts your feelings then you don't know me that well and possibly you need to grow a thicker skin

[Mike]

offtopic post deleted

enoughs enough - closing thread

if wish to carry on discussing any of the points that have been raised here

then feel free to start a new thread