Info On Alco Pressing Plant For Dore

[Guest aintgotit]

i acquired a test pressing of i wanna do it with you by the superbs last year, thing is none of it seems to match up with info listed for the issue. For a start the b-side has goddess of love intead of the listed ,"he broke a young girl,s heart" the label says alco ,santa monica, etc and the two numbers in the deadwax are ljb 609 and a triangle followed by 64841 and the b-side has a triangle followed by 57426. theres also a small circle with what looks like the number 29 inside it.i had a look on a website giving all names of label distributors from new york to new orleans , but nothing seems to match these numbers, the notes on the cover suggest it was done in 1966 but their handwritten like everything else.im clueless and any info provided would go towards satisfying my curiosity.thanks

[Guest veep1296]

i acquired a test pressing of i wanna do it with you by the superbs last year, thing is none of it seems to match up with info listed for the issue. For a start the b-side has goddess of love intead of the listed ,"he broke a young girl,s heart" the label says alco ,santa monica, etc and the two numbers in the deadwax are ljb 609 and a triangle followed by 64841 and the b-side has a triangle followed by 57426. theres also a small circle with what looks like the number 29 inside it.i had a look on a website giving all names of label distributors from new york to new orleans , but nothing seems to match these numbers, the notes on the cover suggest it was done in 1966 but their handwritten like everything else.im clueless and any info provided would go towards satisfying my curiosity.thanks

The triangles with the numbers following are examples of how Monarch Recording in LA identified the records they pressed. You can date them from these numbers but I dont have the info to hand. Monarchs logo on the run out was a cicle with MR within.

Possibly some form of reissue....lots of Dore tracks came out twice with different flips..

There are folk on here far more genned up than I who will no doubt shed light on this...

Whoever compiled the Dore 2 Cd set a few years ago may have an answer....Glen Gunton ??

My copy of The Superbs "I wanna...."is Dore 782 , the deadwax being as you describe with "He Broke A Young Girls Heart" on the flip...Delta 57068...

Not really helped you ...good luck.

Regards

David

[Guest ukdiscographer]

The triangles with the numbers following are examples of how Monarch Recording in LA identified the records they pressed. You can date them from these numbers but I dont have the info to hand. Monarchs logo on the run out was a cicle with MR within.

Possibly some form of reissue....lots of Dore tracks came out twice with different flips..

There are folk on here far more genned up than I who will no doubt shed light on this...

Whoever compiled the Dore 2 Cd set a few years ago may have an answer....Glen Gunton ??

My copy of The Superbs "I wanna...."is Dore 782 , the deadwax being as you describe with "He Broke A Young Girls Heart" on the flip...Delta 57068...

Not really helped you ...good luck.

Regards

David

Hope you guys don't think this response is a bit too anorak-like but here goes:

1) ^ (a delta sign in the dead wax) does not necessarily mean the Monarch Records company but rather one of the mastering and metalwork producers who shared the delta system - Alco being one of them.

Having a delta number doesn't mean it was pressed by the same people who did the metalwork - e.g. Alco did the metalwork for Doré, but AFM Engineering, an associated company, did the pressing. Sometimes, as in the case of Monarch, a company did both. Monarch almost always pressed on styrene, whereas AFM used vinyl.

2) The circle with "numbers in it". They are not the digits 2 and 9. If you look carefully there is an oblique line between what appears to be the digits 2 & 9. It's actually a stylized letter L which also forms the right hand part of a letter A. The "9" is actually a letter C, so with the circle around the whole lot ( an "O") makes the whole formation a stylized ALCO logo. This is a similar idea to the M and (sometimes) reversed R in a circle for Monarch Records. Not only did devices like this enable participants in the delta system to identify their products uniquely at the time, but also, forty or so years on, repro merchants never attempted these trademark inscriptions, so they are invaluable in identifying originals from attempted counterfeits.

3) As to the actual test pressing - I think it is a valuable item. Although 'Goddess Of Love" was released multiple times:

-739 c/w Shake, Shake, Shake [inst.] LJB-114 ^42963-X

-748 c/w He Broke A Young Girl's Heart LJB-388 ^59068-X

-801 c/w One Bad Habit LJB-324 ^69965

but to my knowledge it was never coupled with: I Wanna Do It With You Baby LJB-609 ^64841

This latter track was on 782 c/w He Broke A Young Girl's Heart LJB-388 ^59068-X (I think if Dave looks closely he'll see this delta on his Dore 782 copy) but also the released versions of 'Goddess Of Love' are LJB-374 ^57442, so ^57426 is an earlier master or mother number. Quite probably it was just a quality issue but is the Dore master number LJB-388 or something different? Whichever it is, I would say hang on to it (or of course let me make an offer!)

4) On a wider point which this query throws up - a delta number does not necessarily mean that a record was pressed on the West Coast, although this is the common understanding. Take ERA records of Hollywood as an example. In their early days, ALCO did their mastering from West Coast studio lacquers (e.g. Gold Star, Capitol, Western Recorders & Radio Recorders) and produced the metalwork for the pressing houses. The mothers carried the delta number and this was then replicated into the disks when they were pressed. But in addition to sending the metalwork next door to places like AFM Engineering, Alco also sent mothers to the Long Island Stamper Co. in Long Island, NY, who in turn produced stampers for pressing houses in the New York and Philadelphia areas. Thus for many Era records that produced national hits (and it was a successful label even early on), even East coast pressings bore a delta number. But this is probably worth a thread of its own, if anybody's interested.......

Edited April 2, 2010 by ukdiscographer

[Guest veep1296]

Hope you guys don't think this response is a bit too anorak-like but here goes:

1) ^ (a delta sign in the dead wax) does not necessarily mean the Monarch Records company but rather one of the mastering and metalwork producers who shared the delta system - Alco being one of them.

Having a delta number doesn't mean it was pressed by the same people who did the metalwork - e.g. Alco did the metalwork for Dor, but AFM Engineering, an associated company, did the pressing. Sometimes, as in the case of Monarch, a company did both. Monarch almost always pressed on styrene, whereas AFM used vinyl.

2) The circle with "numbers in it". They are not the digits 2 and 9. If you look carefully there is an oblique line between what appears to be the digits 2 & 9. It's actually a stylized letter L which also forms the right hand part of a letter A. The "9" is actually a letter C, so with the circle around the whole lot ( an "O") makes the whole formation a stylized ALCO logo. This is a similar idea to the M and (sometimes) reversed R in a circle for Monarch Records. Not only did devices like this enable participants in the delta system to identify their products uniquely at the time, but also, forty or so years on, repro merchants never attempted these trademark inscriptions, so they are invaluable in identifying originals from attempted counterfeits.

3) As to the actual test pressing - I think it is a valuable item. Although 'Goddess Of Love" was released multiple times:

-739 c/w Shake, Shake, Shake [inst.] LJB-114 ^42963-X

-748 c/w He Broke A Young Girl's Heart LJB-388 ^59068-X

-801 c/w One Bad Habit LJB-324 ^69965

but to my knowledge it was never coupled with: I Wanna Do It With You Baby LJB-609 ^64841

This latter track was on 782 c/w He Broke A Young Girl's Heart LJB-388 ^59068-X (I think if Dave looks closely he'll see this delta on his Dore 782 copy) but also the released versions of 'Goddess Of Love' are LJB-374 ^57442, so ^57426 is an earlier master or mother number. Quite probably it was just a quality issue but is the Dore master number LJB-388 or something different? Whichever it is, I would say hang on to it (or of course let me make an offer!)

4) On a wider point which this query throws up - a delta number does not necessarily mean that a record was pressed on the West Coast, although this is the common understanding. Take ERA records of Hollywood as an example. In their early days, ALCO did their mastering from West Coast studio lacquers (e.g. Gold Star, Capitol, Western Recorders & Radio Recorders) and produced the metalwork for the pressing houses. The mothers carried the delta number and this was then replicated into the disks when they were pressed. But in addition to sending the metalwork next door to places like AFM Engineering, Alco also sent mothers to the Long Island Stamper Co. in Long Island, NY, who in turn produced stampers for pressing houses in the New York and Philadelphia areas. Thus for many Era records that produced national hits (and it was a successful label even early on), even East coast pressings bore a delta number. But this is probably worth a thread of its own, if anybody's interested.......

Great informative "anorak" response indeed...right up my street !!

A very interesting thread it would be..

Thanks

David Ferguson in a very wet Burnley

[Ady Croasdell]

So it's a Burnley thing! I see.

[Guest veep1296]

So it's a Burnley thing! I see.

Que ??

[Arthur Fenn]

i acquired a test pressing of i wanna do it with you by the superbs last year, thing is none of it seems to match up with info listed for the issue. For a start the b-side has goddess of love intead of the listed ,"he broke a young girl,s heart" the label says alco ,santa monica, etc and the two numbers in the deadwax are ljb 609 and a triangle followed by 64841 and the b-side has a triangle followed by 57426. theres also a small circle with what looks like the number 29 inside it.i had a look on a website giving all names of label distributors from new york to new orleans , but nothing seems to match these numbers, the notes on the cover suggest it was done in 1966 but their handwritten like everything else.im clueless and any info provided would go towards satisfying my curiosity.thanks

This may help. Lou Bedell ( spelt ok ? ), had 1 or 2 repressed cica 79 and gave a copy to Dave Raistrick & myself, cant remember excatly why he did this other than it was big for Richard (as his Fred Smith c/u, ) so i guess it begs the question does an orig 60s press exist, Arthur.

[Ady Croasdell]

Que ??

UKDiscographer is a claret and blue man. I though you knew Dave.

[Prophonics 2029]

I see it now Alco.

[Ezzie Brown]

i had one of these test presses, mickey cruz had it from me for a trade, i traded it of flanny i think...?????????? to me it was very clear and clean recording, looked real, who knows ???????...as i have said before, records should have owner registration documents,it would be very handy...ez

[Guest veep1296]

UKDiscographer is a claret and blue man. I though you knew Dave.

No Adey..I aint a clue who the person behind the name is??

Thanks

David

[Guest aintgotit]

The triangles with the numbers following are examples of how Monarch Recording in LA identified the records they pressed. You can date them from these numbers but I dont have the info to hand. Monarchs logo on the run out was a cicle with MR within.

Possibly some form of reissue....lots of Dore tracks came out twice with different flips..

There are folk on here far more genned up than I who will no doubt shed light on this...

Whoever compiled the Dore 2 Cd set a few years ago may have an answer....Glen Gunton ??

My copy of The Superbs "I wanna...."is Dore 782 , the deadwax being as you describe with "He Broke A Young Girls Heart" on the flip...Delta 57068...

Not really helped you ...good luck.

Regards

David

many thanks d.regards andy

[Guest aintgotit]

Hope you guys don't think this response is a bit too anorak-like but here goes:

1) ^ (a delta sign in the dead wax) does not necessarily mean the Monarch Records company but rather one of the mastering and metalwork producers who shared the delta system - Alco being one of them.

Having a delta number doesn't mean it was pressed by the same people who did the metalwork - e.g. Alco did the metalwork for Dor, but AFM Engineering, an associated company, did the pressing. Sometimes, as in the case of Monarch, a company did both. Monarch almost always pressed on styrene, whereas AFM used vinyl.

2) The circle with "numbers in it". They are not the digits 2 and 9. If you look carefully there is an oblique line between what appears to be the digits 2 & 9. It's actually a stylized letter L which also forms the right hand part of a letter A. The "9" is actually a letter C, so with the circle around the whole lot ( an "O") makes the whole formation a stylized ALCO logo. This is a similar idea to the M and (sometimes) reversed R in a circle for Monarch Records. Not only did devices like this enable participants in the delta system to identify their products uniquely at the time, but also, forty or so years on, repro merchants never attempted these trademark inscriptions, so they are invaluable in identifying originals from attempted counterfeits.

3) As to the actual test pressing - I think it is a valuable item. Although 'Goddess Of Love" was released multiple times:

-739 c/w Shake, Shake, Shake [inst.] LJB-114 ^42963-X

-748 c/w He Broke A Young Girl's Heart LJB-388 ^59068-X

-801 c/w One Bad Habit LJB-324 ^69965

but to my knowledge it was never coupled with: I Wanna Do It With You Baby LJB-609 ^64841

This latter track was on 782 c/w He Broke A Young Girl's Heart LJB-388 ^59068-X (I think if Dave looks closely he'll see this delta on his Dore 782 copy) but also the released versions of 'Goddess Of Love' are LJB-374 ^57442, so ^57426 is an earlier master or mother number. Quite probably it was just a quality issue but is the Dore master number LJB-388 or something different? Whichever it is, I would say hang on to it (or of course let me make an offer!)

4) On a wider point which this query throws up - a delta number does not necessarily mean that a record was pressed on the West Coast, although this is the common understanding. Take ERA records of Hollywood as an example. In their early days, ALCO did their mastering from West Coast studio lacquers (e.g. Gold Star, Capitol, Western Recorders & Radio Recorders) and produced the metalwork for the pressing houses. The mothers carried the delta number and this was then replicated into the disks when they were pressed. But in addition to sending the metalwork next door to places like AFM Engineering, Alco also sent mothers to the Long Island Stamper Co. in Long Island, NY, who in turn produced stampers for pressing houses in the New York and Philadelphia areas. Thus for many Era records that produced national hits (and it was a successful label even early on), even East coast pressings bore a delta number. But this is probably worth a thread of its own, if anybody's interested.......

A-side ljb 609 b-side ljb 374. your right of course about the circle the number 2 becomes an A and the 9 is a C. thanks.

[Guest aintgotit]

This may help. Lou Bedell ( spelt ok ? ), had 1 or 2 repressed cica 79 and gave a copy to Dave Raistrick & myself, cant remember excatly why he did this other than it was big for Richard (as his Fred Smith c/u, ) so i guess it begs the question does an orig 60s press exist, Arthur.

THE LJB 609 HAS REI FOLLOWING A HYPHEN SO i GUESS MAYBE ITS ONE OF THOSE . THANKS ARTHUR

Edited April 4, 2010 by whatsthiscalled

[Guest BoughtMyPoints]

... On a wider point which this query throws up - a delta number does not necessarily mean that a record was pressed on the West Coast, although this is the common understanding. Take ERA records of Hollywood as an example. In their early days, ALCO did their mastering from West Coast studio lacquers (e.g. Gold Star, Capitol, Western Recorders & Radio Recorders) and produced the metalwork for the pressing houses. The mothers carried the delta number and this was then replicated into the disks when they were pressed. But in addition to sending the metalwork next door to places like AFM Engineering, Alco also sent mothers to the Long Island Stamper Co. in Long Island, NY, who in turn produced stampers for pressing houses in the New York and Philadelphia areas. Thus for many Era records that produced national hits (and it was a successful label even early on), even East coast pressings bore a delta number. But this is probably worth a thread of its own, if anybody's interested.......

ALCO was located on the north west corner of Santa Monica Blvd and El Centro in Hollywood, almost diagonally across from Gold Star, located almost on the south east corner of Santa Monica and Vine. It was housed in a 2 storey brick building that is still standing.

As far as I recollect, ALCO did not do the full metal processing of the lacquers, restricting themselves to running off stampers from the metal "mothers".

The "mothers" were processed for most of the independent L.A. pressing plants by James G Lee Processing, known as Greg Lee, located in the south central Los Angeles/Compton area.

ALCO was primarily a record pressing plant but small, with no more than 24 manual presses operated in 2's by pressmen. Monarch was a far larger plant in south central Los Angeles. ALCO could not produce by itself enough pressings to satisfy demand if a record were an actual hit.

As far as I recall, Monarch was the first big plant to close in the L A area. But many others soon followed such as Wadell in Burbank. Rainbo in the actual city of Santa Monica (later moving to Canoga Park) prospered through diversification into other forms of duplication coupled with increased automation, all the time picking up presses from liquidated plants.

As a side note, the Greg Lee delivery driver would come around the Hollywood mastering rooms around noon each day. If mastering an especially "hot" record, the acetate(s) would be cut in the morning so that it would go into the (chemical) bath that same day. That would be the old school Gold Star way.

If artists demanded to be involved, they had to pony up the vastly higher "name" mastering studio costs and would receive instructions for where the lacquers had to be shipped!

Yes, by the 1980's, Gold Star was no longer a "name" studio.

[Guest aintgotit]

ALCO was located on the north west corner of Santa Monica Blvd and El Centro in Hollywood, almost diagonally across from Gold Star, located almost on the south east corner of Santa Monica and Vine. It was housed in a 2 storey brick building that is still standing.

As far as I recollect, ALCO did not do the full metal processing of the lacquers, restricting themselves to running off stampers from the metal "mothers".

The "mothers" were processed for most of the independent L.A. pressing plants by James G Lee Processing, known as Greg Lee, located in the south central Los Angeles/Compton area.

ALCO was primarily a record pressing plant but small, with no more than 24 manual presses operated in 2's by pressmen. Monarch was a far larger plant in south central Los Angeles. ALCO could not produce by itself enough pressings to satisfy demand if a record were an actual hit.

As far as I recall, Monarch was the first big plant to close in the L A area. But many others soon followed such as Wadell in Burbank. Rainbo in the actual city of Santa Monica (later moving to Canoga Park) prospered through diversification into other forms of duplication coupled with increased automation, all the time picking up presses from liquidated plants.

As a side note, the Greg Lee delivery driver would come around the Hollywood mastering rooms around noon each day. If mastering an especially "hot" record, the acetate(s) would be cut in the morning so that it would go into the (chemical) bath that same day. That would be the old school Gold Star way.

If artists demanded to be involved, they had to pony up the vastly higher "name" mastering studio costs and would receive instructions for where the lacquers had to be shipped!

Yes, by the 1980's, Gold Star was no longer a "name" studio.

wow , you sound like you know the area well, are you a californian?

[Ficklefingers]

i had one of these test presses, mickey cruz had it from me for a trade, i traded it of flanny i think...?????????? to me it was very clear and clean recording, looked real, who knows ???????...as i have said before, records should have owner registration documents,it would be very handy...ez

Said copy now resides in my collection Ezzy, having purchased it off Mickey last year.

As a point of interest for the topic starter - my copy is exactly as he describes his own.

Fingers