"crossover" ?

[Guest Paul]

I've been thinking more about this subject tonight and here are my thoughts...

Most so-called "crossover" tracks, in my opinion, are just "soul" tracks which don't fit neatly into other obvious categories - such as 'northern, 'modern', 'deep', 'southern', 'blues', 'disco', 'funk' etc.

To me it's all soul music, and much of this kind of stuff isn't very far removed from hit soul records by artists such as Garland Green, Tyrone Davis, etc.

What is true, in a very general sense, is that most "crossover" tracks have quite a heavy black feel, less obvious sophistication, moderate tempos and slightly relaxed rhythms - swaying more than pushing.

In fact, the musical heart of many of these "crossover" tracks seems to be the bass line, rather than the drum pattern. In many cases these tracks occupy the middle ground somewhere in between traditional ballads (which probably seemed a bit old-fashioned to young black adults in the late 1960s) and common-time uptempo tracks (which probably seemed poppy to young black adults in the late 1960s).

See what I'm getting at? I'm suggesting that most "crossover" records were made with young black adults in mind, rather than black and white teenagers. And they were probably aimed at regional black radio stations more than anything else.

Some could even be described as having an uncommercial (and almost unambitious) feel. So maybe, again in general terms, these kind of records were made by people who were quite content to appeal to regional black audieneces. They certainly weren't aimed at the pop and Motown markets or the funk and disco markets.

Maybe - just maybe - most of these "crossover" tracks resulted from the general rise in black self-awareness and self-respect etc.

If I'm right, even to a degree, then it's a bit ironic that people in the UK are applying the term "crossover" to records which weren't trying to cross over - just the opposite in fact!

Maybe that's why I just can't accept this tag as having any significance? To me, there's nothing "crossover" at all about these records!

These are just my thoughts and I welcome any comments.

Best wishes,

Paul

[Reg Scott]

Hi Paul,

A very well thought out post.

However, in my opinion, the whole 'crossover' sound is just that. In other words it doesn't, and probably never meant to, span any solid definition of a genre from the artists perspective.

Rather, those who listen to and appreciate 'these' tunes noticed a blurring of the edges of genres and attributed the name 'crossover' to a tune that doesn't quite fit symetrically into any specific genre - whatever that may be.

Just my opinion.

Regards,

Greg.

Edited March 26, 2010 by ClearVinyl

[Sean Hampsey]

I've been thinking more about this subject tonight and here are my thoughts...

Most so-called "crossover" tracks, in my opinion, are just "soul" tracks which don't fit neatly into other obvious categories - such as 'northern, 'modern', 'deep', 'southern', 'blues', 'disco', 'funk' etc.

To me it's all soul music, and much of this kind of stuff isn't very far removed from hit soul records by artists such as Garland Green, Tyrone Davis, etc.

What is true, in a very general sense, is that most "crossover" tracks have quite a heavy black feel, less obvious sophistication, moderate tempos and slightly relaxed rhythms - swaying more than pushing.

In fact, the musical heart of many of these "crossover" tracks seems to be the bass line, rather than the drum pattern. In many cases these tracks occupy the middle ground somewhere in between traditional ballads (which probably seemed a bit old-fashioned to young black adults in the late 1960s) and common-time uptempo tracks (which probably seemed poppy to young black adults in the late 1960s).

See what I'm getting at? I'm suggesting that most "crossover" records were made with young black adults in mind, rather than black and white teenagers. And they were probably aimed at regional black radio stations more than anything else.

Some could even be described as having an uncommercial (and almost unambitious) feel. So maybe, again in general terms, these kind of records were made by people who were quite content to appeal to regional black audieneces. They certainly weren't aimed at the pop and Motown markets or the funk and disco markets.

Maybe - just maybe - most of these "crossover" tracks resulted from the general rise in black self-awareness and self-respect etc.

If I'm right, even to a degree, then it's a bit ironic that people in the UK are applying the term "crossover" to records which weren't trying to cross over - just the opposite in fact!

Maybe that's why I just can't accept this tag as having any significance? To me, there's nothing "crossover" at all about these records!

These are just my thoughts and I welcome any comments.

Best wishes,

Paul

All good points Paul, however, the 'crossover' term as we initially applied it on the UK soul scene (i.e.prior to it being misinterpreted, reassigned or simply misunderstood) was purely about the crossover of decades from the 60's to the 70's (a period of 4-5 years) where Soul Music took on more varied rhythm patterns than in previous years. That's why the beat, tempo, rhythm (whatever one prefers to call it) is difficult to pigeon hole. Quite simply, it has (or rather, had) absolutely nothing to do with tempo or pace as it was really only used to plot a period of time in the musics evolution (that rich period, post the 4/4 'Motown classic formula' years).

I think its fair to say though (as I go out on a limb here) that many of your observations are spot on regarding the music itself, in that by this time, even at Motown (i.e. Temptations in the Whitfield years, Marvin Gaye "What's Going On" etc.) many artists and producers had definitely begun to try to appeal (again) much more to a Black audience (doing their own thing) and were often producing more 'soulful' records as a result.

In my experience, those fans (on this side of the pond at least) who embrace that particular 'crossover of the decades' period are more likely to be inclined to be lovers (and collectors) of the deeper shades of Soul, from all eras.

There I've said it.

And it's worth a whipping!

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

As a footnote to the above (in case its not clear) the numerous definitions we've been reading these past few days are probably all correct if we're applying the word 'crossover' in a different 'context' on each occasion i.e. "crosses over from one room to another" "crosses over from obscurity to broader acceptance" "crossing over from one decade to the other" etc. but the latter is most certainly how it was initially applied, from my perspective, on the (UK) Soul scene.

Sean

[Guest Paul]

Thanks Greg and Sean,

I agree with (and respect) all of your views but I was focusing on the music, rather than the scene, and I detected that most of the "crossover" records had the characteristics I described and originated from the period of increased black self-awareness and economic independence etc.

I had intended to mention that two particular cities seem to be quite significant (either in location or in their broader musical influence) and they are Chicago and Memphis, both of which had very large black populations and had developed strong black-to-black economies.

To be honest, even after accepting the points about crossing over from one decade to another etc, I still think the term "crossover" is inappropriate - in the same way that that other tags such as "modern soul" have become so inaccurate.

To me these kind of records sound like they didn't want to cross over to anyone. They sound as if they were made for the kind of people who made them: young black adults.

But it's all subjective and, as I'm sure we will all agree, the term will become even more controversial with the passing of time.

Thanks for your responses.

Best wishes,

[Guest Paul]

As a footnote to the above (in case its not clear) the numerous definitions we've been reading these past few days are probably all correct if we're applying the word 'crossover' in a different 'context' on each occasion i.e. "crosses over from one room to another" "crosses over from obscurity to broader acceptance" "crossing over from one decade to the other" etc. but the latter is most certainly how it was initially applied, from my perspective, on the (UK) Soul scene.

Sean

Absolutely, Sean. To me the term was most used in the music business, originally, to describe crossing over from regional to national or from black to white. So there's no reason why it can't also be used to describe crossing over from one scene to another, etc.

In musical terms, it will always seem contradictory to me but in scene terms, it works.

And it's interesting to note that it's now about twenty years since I first heard the term used on the scene. Where has the time gone?

[Sean Hampsey]

I agree with (and respect) all of your views but I was focusing on the music, rather than the scene, and I detected that most of the "crossover" records had the characteristics I described and originated from the period of increased black self-awareness and economic independence etc.

I had intended to mention that two particular cities seem to be quite significant (either in location or in their broader musical influence) and they are Chicago and Memphis, both of which had very large black populations and had developed strong black-to-black economies.

To be honest, even after accepting the points about crossing over from one decade to another etc, I still think the term "crossover" is inappropriate - in the same way that that other tags such as "modern soul" have become so inaccurate.

To me these kind of records sound like they didn't want to cross over to anyone. They sound as if they were made for the kind of people who made them: young black adults.

Yep, well I thought I'd agreed with you on the above (in that the artists weren't trying to make records to cross over to non-black audiences) and I'm sure you're right.

Am certainly also with you in that, as far as I'm concerned, the 'tags' and 'labels' are pretty much defunct (never did like any of them TBH ) and it is all 'Just Soul' which, of course, is the entire rationale behind our new gig - It's not crossover, Northern or Modern it is just what it says on the tin.

BTW: There's a car load coming down from your neck of the woods, Paul. Would be good to see you with them... and I think you'll find that the Music policy supports your view of how things should be completely.

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

And it's interesting to note that it's now about twenty years since I first heard the term used on the scene. Where has the time gone?

Yep - I'd have said 20 years was about right, Paul.

Bobby Reed, Corey Blake, Joseph Webster, Tom Brock, Sonny Til etc - all very much moldie oldies now mate .

Sean

[Guest Paul]

Yep - I'd have said 20 years was about right, Paul.

Bobby Reed, Corey Blake, Joseph Webster, Tom Brock, Sonny Til etc - all very much moldie oldies now mate .

Sean

True Sean,

Talking about age and the passing of time, go to this thread and have your say

And don't be shy!

[Pete S]

They crossover from being average to being indifferent.

[Guest Paul]

They crossover from being average to being indifferent.

Well I certainly agree with you regarding the Archie Hodge track, as I said in one of the many other "crossover" threads this morning!

Looks like it's crossover season.

[Pete S]

Well I certainly agree with you regarding the Archie Hodge track, as I said in one of the many other "crossover" threads this morning!

Looks like it's crossover season.

Yes it's been Crossover Source week this week, which probably accounts for the board being quieter than usual, half the punters have gone into comas.

The problem I've got with this is that a few weeks ago there was a thread, I think it was about a record by Jackie Trent "You Baby" and someone came on and said they thought we'd left all this behind and moved on and there's no place for records like that nowadays. Well actually, that is a Northern Soul record, like it or not, so is ray merrell, so is paula parfitt, so is dean parrish etc, therefore they qualify for discussion. 90% of crossover records are not Northern Soul so why is that 'good' and certain Northern Soul dancers are 'bad'?

And when they bring out the old "if you don't like crossover you don't like soul music" line - f*ck off, I don't like Iron Maiden but I like Northern Soul.

Soul Snobs.

[Barry]

They crossover from being average to being indifferent.

[Roger Williams]

Yes it's been Crossover Source week this week, which probably accounts for the board being quieter than usual, half the punters have gone into comas.

[Guest Paul]

Pete's on form today!

[Corbett80]

"f*ck off, I don't like Iron Maiden but I like Northern Soul."

What?! You don't like Run To The Hills?!!!

[Mister Fish]

All good points Paul, however, the 'crossover' term as we initially applied it on the UK soul scene (i.e.prior to it being misinterpreted, reassigned or simply misunderstood) was purely about the crossover of decades from the 60's to the 70's (a period of 4-5 years) where Soul Music took on more varied rhythm patterns than in previous years. That's why the beat, tempo, rhythm (whatever one prefers to call it) is difficult to pigeon hole. Quite simply, it has (or rather, had) absolutely nothing to do with tempo or pace as it was really only used to plot a period of time in the musics evolution (that rich period, post the 4/4 'Motown classic formula' years).

I think its fair to say though (as I go out on a limb here) that many of your observations are spot on regarding the music itself, in that by this time, even at Motown (i.e. Temptations in the Whitfield years, Marvin Gaye "What's Going On" etc.) many artists and producers had definitely begun to try to appeal (again) much more to a Black audience (doing their own thing) and were often producing more 'soulful' records as a result.

In my experience, those fans (on this side of the pond at least) who embrace that particular 'crossover of the decades' period are more likely to be inclined to be lovers (and collectors) of the deeper shades of Soul, from all eras.

There I've said it.

And it's worth a whipping!

Sean

Correct and definitive!!

[Pete S]

"f*ck off, I don't like Iron Maiden but I like Northern Soul."

What?! You don't like Run To The Hills?!!!

No, I don't like any Iron Maiden I'm afraid...Bring Your daughter To The Slaughter has a nice ring to it though

[jocko]

Yes it's been Crossover Source week this week, which probably accounts for the board being quieter than usual, half the punters have gone into comas.

The problem I've got with this is that a few weeks ago there was a thread, I think it was about a record by Jackie Trent "You Baby" and someone came on and said they thought we'd left all this behind and moved on and there's no place for records like that nowadays. Well actually, that is a Northern Soul record, like it or not, so is ray merrell, so is paula parfitt, so is dean parrish etc, therefore they qualify for discussion. 90% of crossover records are not Northern Soul so why is that 'good' and certain Northern Soul dancers are 'bad'?

And when they bring out the old "if you don't like crossover you don't like soul music" line - f*ck off, I don't like Iron Maiden but I like Northern Soul.

Soul Snobs.

And I wonder what makes people think your are grumpy Peter eh, I could never imagine. I suspect more than a littly hypocrisy from you on here, but not time to challenge, one question though, WTF has Dean Parrish to do with Jackie Trent? One is a soul singer and one sounds like SHE is gargling hot semen while trying to sign, not sure why you even think of them in the same vein.

Oh and it was me that made the Jackie Trent comment. obviously just wishful thinking on my part!

Edited March 26, 2010 by jocko

[Barry]

and one sounds like SHE is gargling hot semen while trying to sign

Well, I never knew she was deaf Jocko...is it any wonder?

[jocko]

Well, I never knew she was deaf Jocko...is it any wonder?

Surely its obvious from the way she sings.........

[Barry]

Surely its obvious from the way she sings.........

Obvious!

[Pete S]

And I wonder what makes people think your are grumpy Peter eh, I could never imagine.

I dunno, except it's only you who seems to keep going on about it...

[Pete S]

WTF has Dean Parrish to do with Jackie Trent?

Pay attention, THEY-ARE-BOTH-WHITE-PEOPLE-WHO-MADE-NORTHERN-SOUL-RECORDS. They are also both experts in speed-knitting apparently.

[jocko]

I dunno, except it's only you who seems to keep going on about it...

Maybe in public.....

Pay attention, THEY-ARE-BOTH-WHITE-PEOPLE-WHO-MADE-NORTHERN-SOUL-RECORDS. They are also both experts in speed-knitting apparently.

Whats the colour of their skin got to do with it?? Dean's a bona fide soul singer to most people I know.......

[Pete S]

Maybe in public.....

Whats the colour of their skin got to do with it?? Dean's a bona fide soul singer to most people I know.......

You asked what the connection was, I told you, both white singers with northern records

Edited March 26, 2010 by Pete S

[Cunnie]

You asked what the connection was, I told you, both white singers with northern records

More like criminal records.

Saved you the troule Jocko

[Lfcjunkie]

All good points Paul, however, the 'crossover' term as we initially applied it on the UK soul scene (i.e.prior to it being misinterpreted, reassigned or simply misunderstood) was purely about the crossover of decades from the 60's to the 70's (a period of 4-5 years) where Soul Music took on more varied rhythm patterns than in previous years. That's why the beat, tempo, rhythm (whatever one prefers to call it) is difficult to pigeon hole. Quite simply, it has (or rather, had) absolutely nothing to do with tempo or pace as it was really only used to plot a period of time in the musics evolution (that rich period, post the 4/4 'Motown classic formula' years).

I think its fair to say though (as I go out on a limb here) that many of your observations are spot on regarding the music itself, in that by this time, even at Motown (i.e. Temptations in the Whitfield years, Marvin Gaye "What's Going On" etc.) many artists and producers had definitely begun to try to appeal (again) much more to a Black audience (doing their own thing) and were often producing more 'soulful' records as a result.

In my experience, those fans (on this side of the pond at least) who embrace that particular 'crossover of the decades' period are more likely to be inclined to be lovers (and collectors) of the deeper shades of Soul, from all eras.

There I've said it.

And it's worth a whipping!

Sean

absolutely spot on sean Ive always thought crossover as going by the date etc Late 60s to early 70s and always thought the music as a sound surely nearer to the american negro these kind of tunes can't have been expected to hit the charts or anything like motown &stax etc I think youve hit the nail on the head "doing their own thing"

all the best

dave L

[Pete S]

More like criminal records.

Saved you the troule Jocko

Ker-ching!