Crossover

[Guest fryer]

No you still don't get it do you James? As you well know there is a rich history in this music long before you came along. And when you have entire runs of Meters, Kool, Parliament, JB, Ohio Players etc albums and 45s maybe I might take you more seriously.

What I said was:

"The term crossover describes records that were between northern and funk tempo wise- slower than trad northern and yet faster than the funk of groups like Ohio Players, Funkadelic etc.....music made in that wonderful late 60s / early 70s period as others have said"

That is a perfectly valid description of what was happening musically in the late 60s / early 70s, as to most people funk is precisely that type of sound I described. I was not comparing it to the UK rare / deep funk "scene" but "funk" in it's broader context - I know lots of people that would laugh at anyone who describes the likes of Clinton / Funkadelic etc as anything other than "funk".

Of course I wasn't describing crossover as being between northern and shall we for the sake of clarity call it "deep funk", the scene you are referring to, cos clearly that isn't what crossover is. Any dummy knows that and the fact that you are trying to make an issue of it says more about you than anything else.

Language evolves over time? The meaning of funk has changed? Try telling that to Bootsy Collins next time you see him.

It's nonsense and you know it is.

Deepfunk records were mostly guys emulating James Brown soul who is funk as its best. Not one artist from the period has described parliament as a funk band and i have spoken to many. The perception that Parliament is funk music does not come from the period at all it probably comes from the uk in the 80s who thought because the lyrics said "funk" it must be funk. Some rocky of the bands did crossover into funk e.g like "knee deep" by parliament but they are still a funky rock band and not a funk band.

Kool and the gang = funk

James Brown = Funk

Meters = Funk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DONT CROSS THE LINE!

Parliment / funkadlic = Funky Psychedelic Rock

Ohio Players = Funky rock

[Guest James Trouble]

You are right I am involved with an allnighter that promotes crossover amongst the 60s etc but you don't hear an hour of crossover, it's all a question of getting the balance right.

I didn't hear much music at all the last time I was there, and I was stood next to the speaker stack

Edited March 23, 2010 by James Trouble

[Garethx]

The Ohio Players should not be underestimated by soul fans. The earlier material is the essence of 'funky soul' if you ask me. Their playing on things like the Hermon Hitson NY records, Gloria / Towanda Barnes, George Scott, Nate Adams, Lee Moses etc. is magnificent. A lot of their commercially successful albums of the 70s feature some tremendous falsetto ballads, so characterising them as Funky Rock is slightly simplistic in my view.

Edited March 23, 2010 by garethx

[Guest James Trouble]

The Ohio Players should not be underestimated by soul fans. The earlier material is the essence of 'funky soul' if you ask me. Their playing on things like the Hermon Hitson NY records, Gloria / Towanda Barnes, George Scott, Nade Adams, Lee Moses etc. is magnificent. A lot of their commercially successful albums of the 70s feature some tremendous falsetto ballads, so characterising them as Funky Rock is slightly simplistic in my view.

It's probably not a great example, good point G, I assume it's their mid 70s funky slap bass material with the amazing album art work that is being used in this thread.

Two things that are true on this thread are that Chalky is talking crap about 'crossover' clearing dance floors, and Steve G does not understand what is ment by the term funk or deepfunk in the modern day soul scene that exists outside the traditional northern soul scene.

Edited March 23, 2010 by James Trouble

[Sebastian]

The Ohio Players should not be underestimated by soul fans.

A lot of their commercially successful albums of the 70s feature some tremendous falsetto ballads,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpRSrHVyRYg

:thumbsup:

[Guest wrighty]

Parliament / funkadlic = Funky Psychedelic Rock

i always thought it was p funk

[Garethx]

Going off on a tangent now and probably for another thread but the type of seventies soul that seems to be most popular with younger audiences in Europe and beyond is actually the kind of disco-soul that Sam and Arthur kick-started the Modern Soul scene with in 1979-80.

Witness the enduring and universal appeal of things like Timeless Legend, King Tutt, Emmanuel Taylor etc. Who would have thought those records would have the sheer longevity they've enjoyed?

[Little-stevie]

Yes lets keep this on track with the original question....

[Garethx]

It sounds a lot like The Vibrations "Finding Out The Hard Way" on Okeh.

[Corbett80]

The SJ is nicely put together but i'm not sure the pace is conducive to a busy dancefloor? More a 5am-er? Great production though.

[Sean Hampsey]

Nah, it's just soul.

Sean

[Guest James Trouble]

The SJ is nicely put together but i'm not sure the pace is conducive to a busy dancefloor? More a 5am-er? Great production though.

It's not conducive to a busy dance floor if the club is full of £unt$ or the DJ can't program a set.

It's urgency that is important not 'pace'. Would sit great next to modern day midtempo crossover northern funk biggies like Magicians and Sag Warfare.

Edited March 23, 2010 by James Trouble

[Wrongcrowd]

One thing strikes me about Rod's piece above and it reinforces my belief that the term itself came from the modern arm of the scene and that looking for that type of sound sprung from on the one hand the paucity of genuinely soulful new releases and the rise of the nascent House music phenomenon on the other.

The Northern scene of the time was playing the 'Crossover' type of record quite seamlessly in the more upfront sets quite a while before the 'Xover' term was coined by folks on the modern scene. Think of late Stafford and its immediate aftermath: stuff like "Pyramid", the various Johnny Gilliam sides being played, Wilson Love, Margie Joseph "One More Chance", The Appointments on De-lite and Red Coach, and dozens more like them were all at least pretty popular and some were downright monsters. No-one seemed to question whether they were appropriate to play at allnighters.

Crossover type sounds were always accepted anyway in my view. Returnees and revisionists would have us believe they were something grafted onto the Northern scene from outside but that was never really the case.

A very good point Gareth, though the label of 'crossover' really and truly describes a soul music and tempo style, which prior to the label being applied had always been a part of the mainstream and broad 'Northern' scene in any case, way before Stafford. So many of the 'Northern classics' played back in the day would now be sidelined to a 'crossover / modern soul' room for being too slow as new plays today..... Mel Britt, Lynn Varnardo, Bobby Hutton, Keanya Collins, Lovelites, Anderson Brothers, Voices of East Harlem, Eloise Laws... great soul records played to full floors, the list could go on and on.

Some people have very short and convenient memories and are hell bent on narrowing the perspective of a scene that was once passionate about the whole of soul music. The narrowness isn't just restricted to sidelining post 60's soul to seperate rooms, 60's mid-tempo soul also doesn't seem to fit today's 'scene' according to some people. I was at a friend's birthday party a couple of weeks back, and one of the DJs played Lee Andrews 'I've Had It' and the question was asked whether this would ever have room as a new play in today's 'Northern rooms'.... the consensus of opinion was a very sad but true no.

[Guest James Trouble]

A very good point Gareth, though the label of 'crossover' really and truly describes a soul music and tempo style, which prior to the label being applied had always been a part of the mainstream and broad 'Northern' scene in any case, way before Stafford. So many of the 'Northern classics' played back in the day would now be sidelined to a 'crossover / modern soul' room for being too slow as new plays today..... Mel Britt, Lynn Varnardo, Bobby Hutton, Keanya Collins, Lovelites, Anderson Brothers, Voices of East Harlem, Eloise Laws... great soul records played to full floors, the list could go on and on.

Some people have very short and convenient memories and are hell bent on narrowing the perspective of a scene that was once passionate about the whole of soul music. The narrowness isn't just restricted to sidelining post 60's soul to seperate rooms, 60's mid-tempo soul also doesn't seem to fit today's 'scene' according to some people. I was at a friend's birthday party a couple of weeks back, and one of the DJs played Lee Andrews 'I've Had It' and the question was asked whether this would ever have room as a new play in today's 'Northern rooms'.... the consensus of opinion was a very sad but true no.

Very true and good points, Cliff. I'm with you 100% on this.

It seems to me that the manifestation of what you are describing is your man at Lifeline, Chalky. People like him in positions of influence and power are holding the scene back with their miopic outlook, restrictive playlists and short memories of what made northern soul great in the first place. And they are as much a problem in the upfront quarters as in the oldies corner.

There's an 1980s Top Of THe World Stafford style soul explosion going on at the moment. But not in the UK, it's in other parts of the world. It's great that it's going on, but sad that it's not in the UK.

I'm sure someone will throw "trouble maker" at me. Well I'm sorry, the whole thing is getting strangled in the UK at the moment and something needs to be said.

Edited March 23, 2010 by James Trouble

[Wrongcrowd]

Nah, it's just soul.

Sean

[Dave Thorley]

Deepfunk records were mostly guys emulating James Brown soul who is funk as its best. Not one artist from the period has described parliament as a funk band and i have spoken to many. The perception that Parliament is funk music does not come from the period at all it probably comes from the uk in the 80s who thought because the lyrics said "funk" it must be funk. Some rocky of the bands did crossover into funk e.g like "knee deep" by parliament but they are still a funky rock band and not a funk band.

Kool and the gang = funk

James Brown = Funk

Meters = Funk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DONT CROSS THE LINE!

Parliment / funkadlic = Funky Psychedelic Rock

Ohio Players = Funky rock

Firstly you will never hear any of the guys you spoke to mention Parliment/Funkadelic, because you went looking for and speaking to artists that fitted your definition of funk, James Brown wanna b's. Funk as it classified here is a white boy english definition that suits the way they would like the world to be.

Speak to any well know artist in Detroit and they all say to a man that in the late 60's Parliment 'Had the funk', the Funk Brothers 'Had the funk'. Both JB and Parliment 'Had the funk', thats why people like Booty Collins, Pee Wee and others worked with both at different times. The term 'Funk' is much broader than you would like it to be.

[Pete S]

So many of the 'Northern classics' played back in the day would now be sidelined to a 'crossover / modern soul' room for being too slow as new plays today..... Mel Britt, Lynn Varnardo, Bobby Hutton, Keanya Collins, Lovelites, Anderson Brothers, Voices of East Harlem, Eloise Laws... great soul records played to full floors, the list could go on and on.

Why, those records are Northern Soul records and are deemed so because of the beat, they're out and out Northern and always will be. Except Lynn Varnado. I don't know what that is.

[Dave Thorley]

Firstly you will never hear any of the guys you spoke to mention Parliment/Funkadelic, because you went looking for and speaking to artists that fitted your definition of funk, James Brown wanna b's. Funk as it classified here is a white boy english definition that suits the way they would like the world to be.

Speak to any well know artist in Detroit and they all say to a man that in the late 60's Parliment 'Had the funk', the Funk Brothers 'Had the funk'. Both JB and Parliment 'Had the funk', thats why people like Booty Collins, Pee Wee and others worked with both at different times. The term 'Funk' is much broader than you would like it to be.

PS

I'm suprised that you of all people have such a narrow view, as I know you have traveled widely in the States and spoken to many. I can understand others who have this English view of what funk is and when they have been to the U.S. have chosen to hang out in trendy New York clubs with mainly other white guys who have Black sound-a-like DJ names.

But you should be much more open minded, or maybe you are displaying that other trait of the English Funk Scene, being controversial, cuz it's hip

[KevH]

Why, those records are Northern Soul records and are deemed so because of the beat, they're out and out Northern and always will be. Except Lynn Varnado. I don't know what that is.

You can add Turn of the Century,Bobby Franklin,Spaceark,Leroy Hutson and a host of others to the list

They are all crossover (except Anderson Bros.).None fit the remit of NS.If discovered today,they wouldn't get played at any out and out 60's NS venue.

All played at a time of NS transistion.

Imo.

Edited March 23, 2010 by KevH

[Guest James Trouble]

PS

I'm suprised that you of all people have such a narrow view, as I know you have traveled widely in the States and spoken to many. I can understand others who have this English view of what funk is and when they have been to the U.S. have chosen to hang out in trendy New York clubs with mainly other white guys who have Black sound-a-like DJ names.

But you should be much more open minded, or maybe you are displaying that other trait of the English Funk Scene, being controversial, cuz it's hip

He's Scottish.

[Dave Thorley]

He's Scottish.

, OK British, European version of...

[Corbett80]

"It's not conducive to a busy dance floor if the club is full of £unt$ or the DJ can't program a set.

It's urgency that is important not 'pace'. Would sit great next to modern day midtempo crossover northern funk biggies like Magicians and Sag Warfare. "

It not as good as either of those imho, and i wouldn't say its that urgent either. I guess the dancers will decide though. Play it out and see.

Edited March 23, 2010 by corbett80

[Wrongcrowd]

Why, those records are Northern Soul records and are deemed so because of the beat, they're out and out Northern and always will be. Except Lynn Varnado. I don't know what that is.

I agree with you Pete, though not absolutely 'because of the beat'. The point I'm making is thay they have far more in common in terms of production and tempo with thel label 'crossover' that they no longer fit today's narrow definition of 'Northern'....

.... and Lynn Varnardo.... is soul as perfect as it comes....

[Dave Thorley]

Anyway, now to the original question. Why is everone so hung up on labels, definitions.

Why not come on here and rather than constantly giving personal opions. Impart some knowledge on the music we love, why this was done, how that was done, who was involved, why they did this or that.

[Pete S]

I agree with you Pete, though not absolutely 'because of the beat'. The point I'm making is thay they have far more in common in terms of production and tempo with thel label 'crossover' that they no longer fit today's narrow definition of 'Northern'....

.... and Lynn Varnardo.... is soul as perfect as it comes....

I gues I don't even need to tell you that I rate Lynn Varnado about as highly as I rate Agadoo. Those lyrics are truly terrible.

[Corbett80]

"Impart some knowledge on the music we love, why this was done, how that was done, who was involved, why they did this or that."

Would love to find out some info on Sag War Fare as it happens.....does anyone know anything? Obviously best to start a new thread i expect?

Edited March 23, 2010 by corbett80

[Guest rachel]

Topic temp closed pending moderation discussion - Corbett, suggest you start another thread for your query.

[Reg]

Topic reopened.

Please remember House Rules and Terms of Use:

[Steve G]

"Impart some knowledge on the music we love, why this was done, how that was done, who was involved, why they did this or that."

Would love to find out some info on Sag War Fare as it happens.....does anyone know anything? Obviously best to start a new thread i expect?

Corbett,

Yes "Girl ! You better change" is the crossover side.

It's on Libra and was recorded in Florida.

Dave T - agree with you - too much pidgeon holing going on, and yes funk is a very broad genre.

Fryer - to me things like "Standing on the verge of getting it on", "A Joyful process" and even "Tear the roof off the sucker"` have always been in my definition of funk. And from the Players stuff like "Who'd she coo?" and "Fire" which I went out and purchased when I first heard it. Nothing to do with the rare / deep funk scene in the UK, and of course I know that.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Fryer - to me things like "Standing on the verge of getting it on", "A Joyful process" and even "Tear the roof off the sucker"` have always been in my definition of funk. And from the Players stuff like "Who'd she coo?" and "Fire" which I went out and purchased when I first heard it. Nothing to do with the rare / deep funk scene in the UK, and of course I know that.

Mine too Steve. Of course they're funk. Always have been and always will be. All the above tracks were played in the predominently Black clubs in the early 70's and were all floorfillers. Try telling George Clinton that "P-Funk (Wants To Get Funked Up)" or "Tear The Roof Off The Sucker (Give Up The Funk)" isn't Funk and he'd have a stroke! No point in being revisionist here.

Ian D

.

[jocko]

Fryer - to me things like "Standing on the verge of getting it on", "A Joyful process" and even "Tear the roof off the sucker"` have always been in my definition of funk. And from the Players stuff like "Who'd she coo?" and "Fire" which I went out and purchased when I first heard it. Nothing to do with the rare / deep funk scene in the UK, and of course I know that.

Mine too Steve. Of course they're funk. Always have been and always will be. All the above tracks were played in the predominently Black clubs in the early 70's and were all floorfillers. Try telling George Clinton that "P-Funk (Wants To Get Funked Up)" or "Tear The Roof Off The Sucker (Give Up The Funk)" isn't Funk and he'd have a stroke! No point in being revisionist here.

Ian D

.

Nice to be able to agree for once Mr D, and I suspect despite your youthfull but slightly LA ravaged looks, you were there at the above time! Although I assume you were one of these old c's that was getting told to go away in James' post earlier that seems to disappeared.

Lost the will to live on this, as assumed this was all about the new funk Boys trying to wind the old soul boys up to make up for the absence of any scene they can spend their time on, but the missing posts seem to mean its too fragmented to follow.

Does this mean you are now back to being a young Funk Boy James and don't love us anymore? Although your shortest post on this earlier, other then the ridiculous point scoring attack on Chalky, actually was on the button, assume that has sadly dissapeared too.

Oh well, back to sticking to my media thread only promise, sadly work means can't play on here much during the day so too much to catch up.

Off for a Kool and The Gang funk session, altogether now Celebrate.......can't beat a bit of revisionism to end the day on.

[George M]

PS

I can understand others who have this English view of what funk is and when they have been to the U.S. have chosen to hang out in trendy New York clubs with mainly other white guys who have Black sound-a-like DJ names.

hi Dave,

Hope this was sarcasm aimed at Fryer and doesn't refer to me - I hang out in trendy clubs all over America, not just in New York:nono:

While I'm over there, I even hang out with people who aren't white, sometimes for whole weeks at a time - even more shockingly, and I know this will be hard to comprehend but some are actual friends of mine, not just people I'm trying to get records off of Just to confuse matters further, one of them is black but with a white-sounding DJ name:swoon:

Back on the subject of crossover, I know it's often attributed to VFTS, but didn't Dean Johnson have something to do with the term coming into popular use? I read an article by him on the subject ages ago, where he was saying how his original definition was really broad (even including gospel tracks off CDs etc) but later got narrowed down so much that it eventually came to just mean "jangly early 70s soul set slightly above midtempo" or thereabouts, but I can't remember what fanzine it was in. Maybe a Manc of a certain age could step forward and shed a bit of light on this (Alan? Dave? Dean, even?).

[Ian Dewhirst]

Nice to be able to agree for once Mr D, and I suspect despite your youthfull but slightly LA ravaged looks, you were there at the above time! Although I assume you were one of these old c's that was getting told to go away in James' post earlier that seems to disappeared.

LOL, always the charmer Jocko. I was actually in the studio with Parliament the day they recorded "Flashlight" which is tough to beat for a fly on the wall dose of pure funk. I went to the studio to pick up 500 copies of a record by the Glass Family from the engineer Jim Callon and ended up staying all night being entertained by George & co. Wouldn't have changed that experience for anything.

No surprise that my looks are LA ravaged then.......

Ian D

[Wiggyflat]

Well after going to prestatyn i can say one thing is for sure, the top northern dj's take the funk collectors very seriously (listening and trading records). Many of the new big northern spins were considered big funk records over the last 15 years at some point. Willie coco / micky and soul gen / black sugar / sweet mixture / willie wright .... the list goes on and top northern guys are tapping the funk scene for new and rare spins, so todays funk is tomorrow northern but only after a big name dj has made it so.

I'm confused. I bought Grease Wheels 45 by the Smokin Shades Of Black at Dingwalls from a dealer called Alan in 88. I bought it as a funk instrumental (a break from buying Candido and Jack Costanzo LP's). Just dug it out and I now think of it as a great northern soul instrumental...does this mean it has crossed over as it's gone from the funk box to the northern box?? .

[Guest Paul]

I'm glad this has calmed down a bit because I was getting a bit disturbed at some of the comments - especially the personal stuff. There's no need for that.

It's all soul and (mostly) black music from different eras and with different styles, feels, tempos and rhythm patterns etc. The more we try to categorise it (and further sub-categorise it) we'll find that some tracks just won't fit neatly into any particular sub-category. So what's the point?

And who the hell are we (any of us) to try to dictate just what is or isn't a real funk record or an authentic deep funk record or whatever? We're just playing games with someone else's music here, like a bunch of librabrians debating if a book should be in the "political history" section or the "historical politics" section.

Over time, most people around the world have generally considered that "funk" is a syncopated groove with the accent most usually on the first beat, not the second and fourth. But even then, some funk records will break that rule yet they may still feel "funky" in other ways. Nothing can change that basic general description.

As for "crossover", it's just another trendy scene term, like "northern soul" and "modern soul" (hardly a very accurate description for forty-year-old records) which really don't mean anything in musical terms - especially as the scenes keep changing as different styles rise or fall in popularity. But theses terms exist and some people think they are necessary so I can live with that.

Originally, in the music business, the term "crossover" was most often used to describe a record crossing over from regional to national markets or to describe a "black" record crossing over to "white" markets.

What really annoyed me with this thread is one person trying to tell another person that he is "wrong" or "out of touch" or whatever. It's all subjective and there are no rules. There's no competition here; no prizes to be won ...just a few egos to be boosted or deflated by scoring a few points.

As for the new (or forthcoming) Sharon Jones track, it's very nice but not as strong - in my own subjective opinion - as the other Sharon Jones tracks I have loved for years. And I have a suspicion that some people wouldn't be quite so excited about it if it was already available to the general public. It may soon become yesterday's record for yesterday's people.

Anyway, that's enough from me. Just please drop the personal insults; we all have the right to our own views and individual musical preferences, even those of us who aren't pioneering and ground-breaking progresssive DJs with big wallets (...and that's a joke, by the way).

I'm crossing over, just so I can come back again.

[dthedrug]

Don't sit on the fence Dave

What about them folk who could/ can afford to buy rare northern but want to buy/ play and listen to the crossover sound...

Well it,s like this I like playing the blues & listening to all aspects of American Black Music and Hilbilly, I also Love Reggae! and still have a nice small collection of classics fro 68-71..But I would never impose on someones night out by playing Dico records, that were being played at The NEW PENNY DISCO in Watford?? Xover is for the Limp Wristed Types..Look what happened at Blackpool Mecca YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!? DAVE the WAG.

[Guest Brett F]

In regards 'crossover/70' s soul', my take on it, is that artists (including writers, musicians etc) that started their careers earlier and continued into the late 1960's and through into the mid 70's were indeed creative people, and any self respecting person involved in a musical dimension would I imagine want to develop those creative aspects and in my view, many would fine tune their own work and reach a peak in these very years (late 60's early /mid 70's). Surely the advent of studio equipment, like multi- track recorders must have seemed heaven sent to these artistic talents (remembering that in the early days 2/4 track machines were the norm, in fact Ampex didn't make a 16 track-recorder till 1968). All artists and talented people wish to develop their talents and many take an interesting and rewarding learning curve. Thankfully for me I enjoy 1960's soul music, but feel my own tastes have shifted over a number of years to a point where these 70's soul records are at the pinnacle for my taste and ears.

Brett

Edited March 24, 2010 by Brett F

[Baz Atkinson]

The article rings a bell can anyone shed light on it? Again the broad definition -and Paul is so right on this agree with everything he says its all subjective with various definitions attached to pigeon hole what is seventies soul music!!!

BAZ A

hi Dave,

Hope this was sarcasm aimed at Fryer and doesn't refer to me - I hang out in trendy clubs all over America, not just in New York:nono:

While I'm over there, I even hang out with people who aren't white, sometimes for whole weeks at a time - even more shockingly, and I know this will be hard to comprehend but some are actual friends of mine, not just people I'm trying to get records off of Just to confuse matters further, one of them is black but with a white-sounding DJ name:swoon:

Back on the subject of crossover, I know it's often attributed to VFTS, but didn't Dean Johnson have something to do with the term coming into popular use? I read an article by him on the subject ages ago, where he was saying how his original definition was really broad (even including gospel tracks off CDs etc) but later got narrowed down so much that it eventually came to just mean "jangly early 70s soul set slightly above midtempo" or thereabouts, but I can't remember what fanzine it was in. Maybe a Manc of a certain age could step forward and shed a bit of light on this (Alan? Dave? Dean, even?).

[Guest wrighty]

It's all soul and (mostly) black music from different eras and with different styles, feels, tempos and rhythm patterns etc. The more we try to categorise it (and further sub-categorise it) we'll find that some tracks just won't fit neatly into any particular sub-category. So what's the point?

And who the hell are we (any of us) to try to dictate just what is or isn't a real funk record or an authentic deep funk record or whatever?

What really annoyed me with this thread is one person trying to tell another person that he is "wrong" or "out of touch" or whatever. It's all subjective and there are no rules. There's no competition here; no prizes to be won ...just a few egos to be boosted or deflated by scoring a few points.

ball's been kicked out lads, game over

[Dave Thorley]

Morning All

On topic today:D

I always have a problem with labels, have had heated conversations with Pete S over definition of Northern in the past.

I have and always will view records simply, can they be played, do they have a beat the matches or that is simular to the current general style in the soul clubs, is there some hookline in there that is infectious, are they soulful.

When they were made is an irrelevance, I love soul music that makes you want to get up and dance. To say this whole thread is pointless would be unfair to the many well written postings, but why is so much time and effort being spent on something that can't really be diffined.

This record just feels right now, 30, 20 years ago it may not, but now it does. The same applies in reverse it may have felt right 30 years ago but now it out of place.

[Guest James Trouble]

I'm confused. I bought Grease Wheels 45 by the Smokin Shades Of Black at Dingwalls from a dealer called Alan in  88. I bought it as a funk instrumental (a break from buying Candido and Jack Costanzo LP's). Just dug it out and I now think of it as a great northern soul instrumental...does this mean it has crossed over as it's gone from the funk box to the northern box?? .

Classic Deepfunk, and very far removed from p-funk gimmickry that seems to get associated with "funk".

Been a spin for Butch recently as well, when he plays away from clubs, such as Lifeline and the 100 Club, which restrict and shackle his playlist.

It's tracks like this that are being embraced alongside all other kinds of 'old soul' records in exciting and dynamic playlists all around the world, but influencial elements in the "Northern Soul" scene in the UK seem to be repulsed by it. Why? It's not as if it doesn't work, it clearly does fill dance floors, the dancers love it. And I would imagine that this would have been a big hit at clubs like Cleethorpes Pier had it been featured in a playlist there.

FFS if Mickey and The Soul Generation - How Good Is Good can pack the dance floor at Stoke Kings Hall, played as an unknown, first time out at the club, and gets a round of applause from the full dance floor at the end, I'm pretty sure clubs that label themselves as 'upfront' or are in a position to push playlists because of the make up of the crowd they attract because of their city center location can take the shackles off in the name of excitment?

What has changed so much over the years that tracks which are like "The Crow", Undisputed Truth "You + Me", Country Road or one of the countless funk, disco, (and crossover) sounds that are now concidered Northern Soul Oldies can not be accepted by those in positions of influence?

I think half the problem is fear, fear of the unknown, and misunderstanding which stems from the p-funk + Ohio Players style slap bass gimmickry that is assotiated with the word 'funk' and 'funk scene'.

I appologise for use of the c word yesterday, but it's getting ridiculous when people who really should know better than to dismiss the deepfunk scene and collectors as "white boys with silly names hanging out in trendy clubs". It would be like saying the "Northern Soul scene is a bunch old of over weight fat northern men with silly moustaches hanging out in dirty working men's clubs in the middle of nowhere". Of course it will wind us up, no matter how accurate the observation.

I think most will agree that there is too much pigeon holeing going on. Whether it's Deepfunk, Northern Soul, Crossover, Modern Soul, Disco, RnB, or whatever, it seems that these tags are used as much as a label of derision and ridicule rather than to attach any positive accolade.

Back on to the original question, what is crossover?

I like the description that crossover soul is a bit like northern soul (whatever that is) but a bit more jangly. Silly but probably accurate.

Edited March 24, 2010 by James Trouble

[Baz Atkinson]

Ive just noticed the original poster who asked the question is new to site "fook me lol" he/she has enough on here to be put off for life!!! jUST ENJOY THE MUSIC AND SITE AND CHECK ALL THE THREADS IN THE SOUL AUDIO SECTION -lol.!!!!

BAZ A

[John Reed]

Isn't one or the biggest problems when defining terms like "Crossover", "DeepFunk" or "Northern", is that the same records means different things to different people, which is why there are so many arguments. These, IMO are not real black music genres, but "Club Scenes". I can't comment on club scenes outside of the UK, but these "scenes" have all included records which are not their predefined core sounds of: Crossover - late 60 early 70's mid-tempo records, DeepFunk - JB'esc type records, Northern - Motownesc records

Looking through the top 100 Northern thread, there are many records that I personally think are crossover. Maybe I heard them at crossover venues first and my thinking would be different if I heard these at Northern do's first.

I do think Rod's article in Voices was a formative piece of writing and as previously said was written at a time when "House" records were infiltrating the then "modern soul" playlists. I've also questioned records included as I wouldn't class Cornelius & Carol - So I Can Love You - E Enterprises as crossover, as it's an 81 release, so for me I'd class it as 80's soul.

I also remember this debate when people asked what "Rare Groove" was in the 80's and similar arguments raged. I think when Norman Jay or another DJ on that scene was asked "What rare groove was?"; their reply was "Whatever you want it to be". I think the same can be said for Crossover, Northern, etc, .....

Edited March 24, 2010 by John Reed

[Steve G]

Isn't one or the biggest problems when defining terms like "Crossover", "DeepFunk" or "Northern", is that the same records means different things to different people, which is why there are so many arguments. These, IMO are not real black music genres, but "Club Scenes". I can't comment on club scenes outside of the UK, but these "scenes" have all included records which are not their predefined core sounds of: Crossover - late 60 early 70's mid-tempo records, DeepFunk - JB'esc type records, Northern - Motownesc records

A very fair point John, and some people often forget that there is a world of interest and knowledge outside of the "club scene(s) as well.

Steve

[Little-stevie]

Another epic comes towards a close,...

Paul Mooney's post is something that rings true to me...

I collect and play music, of many styles...

Love my bangiing 60s alongside many other forms...

Go easy folks and just dig what you wanna dig and leave others to do the same....

Does that make us Bi soulful ( one who can embrace black music in many forms )... One day we love the macho stompers and another we are slack wristed jingly jangly carpet dancers...

Say it out loud, its part of the healing process.. I will....

My name is Steve, i like a bit of everything

I aint Martha or Arthur

I am bi soulful....

Come join me and leave the pigeons to scratch around looking for boxes...

Next topic....

Can you define cross under

Edited March 24, 2010 by little-stevie

[Dave Thorley]

Classic Deepfunk, and very far removed from p-funk gimmickry that seems to get associated with "funk".

Been a spin for Butch recently as well, when he plays away from clubs, such as Lifeline and the 100 Club, which restrict and shackle his playlist.

It's tracks like this that are being embraced alongside all other kinds of 'old soul' records in exciting and dynamic playlists all around the world, but influencial elements in the "Northern Soul" scene in the UK seem to be repulsed by it. Why? It's not as if it doesn't work, it clearly does fill dance floors, the dancers love it. And I would imagine that this would have been a big hit at clubs like Cleethorpes Pier had it been featured in a playlist there.

FFS if Mickey and The Soul Generation - How Good Is Good can pack the dance floor at Stoke Kings Hall, played as an unknown, first time out at the club, and gets a round of applause from the full dance floor at the end, I'm pretty sure clubs that label themselves as 'upfront' or are in a position to push playlists because of the make up of the crowd they attract because of their city center location can take the shackles off in the name of excitment?

What has changed so much over the years that tracks which are like "The Crow", Undisputed Truth "You + Me", Country Road or one of the countless funk, disco, (and crossover) sounds that are now concidered Northern Soul Oldies can not be accepted by those in positions of influence?

I think half the problem is fear, fear of the unknown, and misunderstanding which stems from the p-funk + Ohio Players style slap bass gimmickry that is assotiated with the word 'funk' and 'funk scene'.

I appologise for use of the c word yesterday, but it's getting ridiculous when people who really should know better than to dismiss the deepfunk scene and collectors as "white boys with silly names hanging out in trendy clubs". It would be like saying the "Northern Soul scene is a bunch old of over weight fat northern men with silly moustaches hanging out in dirty working men's clubs in the middle of nowhere". Of course it will wind us up, no matter how accurate the observation.

I think most will agree that there is too much pigeon holeing going on. Whether it's Deepfunk, Northern Soul, Crossover, Modern Soul, Disco, RnB, or whatever, it seems that these tags are used as much as a label of derision and ridicule rather than to attach any positive accolade.

Back on to the original question, what is crossover?

I like the description that crossover soul is a bit like northern soul (whatever that is) but a bit more jangly. Silly but probably accurate.

James

I in no way dismiss the 'Deep Funk' scene. I think it's influence over the wider rare soul scene in the past few years has been one of the great positives and have said so, publicly on more than one occasion. I simple have a problem when people who had nothing to do with making the music tell everyone what this or that definition of whatever is. As you righty say the definition of 'Deep Funk' is clearly documented, but it's a definition generated here and not by the musicians.

I still feel that us guys here deciding weather that respected group or another is a funk group is insulting to them. They made the music for god sake, they know better than anyone if they were laying down a funk track.

I also agree that the UK scene will for ever more suffer from all the baggage it has to carry around with it, this is the great advantage that most other parts of the world don't have to deal with. That is also why things seem much freshers there than here. But athough it is easy to travel most places now, I still live here and so just critirsizing the UK scene(s) serves no positive purpose. Old many might be and forgetful maybe, but many of these guys laid down the roots of scenes that flourish worldwide.

So if I offended, you or anyone else yesterday, sorry

But will everyone stop with this obsession of labeling everything. 'Is it soulful, good, is it dancable, good.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Dave Thorley

[Wrongcrowd]

I gues I don't even need to tell you that I rate Lynn Varnado about as highly as I rate Agadoo. Those lyrics are truly terrible.

Pete, I know you'll always speak your mind, and you're entitled to your opinion, but honestly there's something going on with you that translates the most soulful of tunes into the worst crass pop, and you need some serious help.... Lynn Varnardo = Agadoo, are you for real ??!!

To describe the lyrics of Wash And Wear Love as 'truly terrible' is just a touch at odds with Dave Godin's review of it in Blues & Soul, as a new play...... but then what did Dave know.... it's all being rewritten anyhow....

Apologies for going off topic here, but I feel a lot better now....

[Pete S]

Pete, I know you'll always speak your mind, and you're entitled to your opinion, but honestly there's something going on with you that translates the most soulful of tunes into the worst crass pop, and you need some serious help.... Lynn Varnardo = Agadoo, are you for real ??!!

To describe the lyrics of Wash And Wear Love as 'truly terrible' is just a touch at odds with Dave Godin's review of it in Blues & Soul, as a new play...... but then what did Dave know.... it's all being rewritten anyhow....

Apologies for going off topic here, but I feel a lot better now....

Yeah I'm for real, but just for you I'll say I like it and it's the best thing I've ever heard, is that ok for you? And the lyrics are like poetry.

Dave Godin tipped Lou & Laura Poole on Jayboy, he didn't know everything.

[Guest Paul]

Take a track such as the brilliant 'Wrong Crowd' by Prince George...

I reckon it could be defined by different people as being 'northern', 'modern', 'funky', whatever ...and it's pretty damn soulful too. So how do you define a record like that?

And what about 'Before 2001' by Rufus Wood or 'So Is The Sun' by The World Column? You can detect traces of soul, jazz, funk and even rock in there. So what bag do you put it in?

The more you analyse some tracks, the more difficult it gets.

So the answer is to categorise records in very simple ways ...such as "45 rpm" or "popular" or "stereo" or whatever.

I prefer mono records myself but each to his own.

[Dave Thorley]

PS not going to give up on this Parliament thing though. I can remember sitting round with a bunch of respected artists in Detroit. They were talking about back in the day, as often they do and Parliaments influence came up in conversation. Someone said I think it was Joe Hunter or McKinley Jackson, 'we would be driving back late at night through west Detroit and George's group would be playing this new club, you could feel the funk six blocks away'. They were talking about 68/69 long before all the P-Funk stuff you refurre to, Parliment a funk group, oh yes.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Dave Thorley