Crossover

[Russell F]

What is your undersanding of the term xover i have asked many people and have had many different replys

[MarkWhiteley]

What is your undersanding of the term xover i have asked many people and have had many different replys

My understanding of it Russ is that transitional period between the 60's & 70's musical styles.

As a broad rule of thumb, 1968 - 1972 datewise

However this has been debated before and no doubt my interpretation is out by a country mile

Let the onslaught begin

M.

[Shinehead]

I first came across the term when it was used by Rod Dearlove in Voices From The Shadows , to describe records from 68 onwards to mid seventies. Records of midtempo with strings .

[Russell F]

Thanks Mark thats what i thought but i did'nt know the dates

[Paul-s]

What is your undersanding of the term xover i have asked many people and have had many different replys

When wigan closed a lot of people were cross that it was over..then formed a reactionary movement called Xover....

[Guest]

I first came across the term when it was used by Rod Dearlove in Voices From The Shadows , to describe records from 68 onwards to mid seventies. Records of midtempo with strings .

Rod was the first person to use the word , using / coining the term he thought suitable to describe records that would have a broader appeal .

As for the use of " crossover " and the application of the term " Modern " to records , Sean Hampsey and Tats Taylor have to be given recognition for its' incoperation / application into the terminology of the soul scene , for their belief in the records from the offset .

Malc Burton

Edited March 21, 2010 by Malc Burton

[Dave Pinch]

I first came across the term when it was used by Rod Dearlove in Voices From The Shadows , to describe records from 68 onwards to mid seventies. Records of midtempo with strings .

THATS PRETTY MUCH IT ALTHO WE COULD SAY 67 ONWARDS

DAVE

[Pete S]

It came about because the originator of the term couldn't pronounce "substandard throwaway B side fodder"

[Guest Dante]

It came about because the originator of the term couldn't pronounce "substandard throwaway B side fodder"

Used to think that too. The guitars, specially tend to be real messy, I supose it's not easy to get a good crossover sound, and there's definitely a lot of garbage, specially group harmonies, but there's also some amazing records: Patti Drew - Stop And Listen being a great example.

[Guest dundeedavie]

i imagine they called it crossover cos calling a good proportion of it "wishy-washy nonsense" would have been deemed offensive

[Ezzie Brown]

isnt it used to desciibe borderline styles of music in many genres.....eg,,,,,,,,country/rock.....or doo-wop /teen .................??????????????/ they just cross over into another style i spose......i cross over between mad and raving mad cheers ez

[Pete S]

Used to think that too. The guitars, specially tend to be real messy, I supose it's not easy to get a good crossover sound, and there's definitely a lot of garbage, specially group harmonies, but there's also some amazing records: Patti Drew - Stop And Listen being a great example.

But that's Northern not crossover!

[jocko]

It came about because the originator of the term couldn't pronounce "substandard throwaway B side fodder"

It's a soul thing Pete, you'll never understand it, now get over to the anything with a beat section or I'll get Captain Ken the Mod to shout at you.

PS it actually means anything that a small group of us want to put on Refo-Soul and can't find another tag for if you really want to know.

[Pete S]

It's a soul thing Pete, you'll never understand it, now get over to the anything with a beat section or I'll get Captain Ken the Mod to shout at you.

PS it actually means anything that a small group of us want to put on Refo-Soul and can't find another tag for if you really want to know.

I wish I could be special like you Jock.

By the way thank you for the very nice birthday greetings the other week, I forgot to say thanks

[Cunnie]

Ah Crossover, that's easy.

Too slow / unknown / rare / new / soulful (delete as applicable) for the Northern scene.

Too old for the Modern scene.

Uncomfortable bed partner of both scenes though & equally brilliant & sometimes awful.

Right what's next then???

[Eddie Hubbard]

After the traditional Motown sound , but before Philly took off in a big way , listen to the crossover thread to get a better idea of the sound .Cheers ,Eddie

[Rotherham Soul]

After the traditional Motown sound , but before Philly took off in a big way , listen to the crossover thread to get a better idea of the sound .Cheers ,Eddie

Tunes that crossed over from the modern room to the main room?

[Pete S]

After the traditional Motown sound , but before Philly took off in a big way , listen to the crossover thread to get a better idea of the sound .Cheers ,Eddie

Couldn't stand the torture Eddie. Just play the B side of any early 70's soul record instead.

[Steve G]

The term crossover describes records that were between northern and funk tempo wise- slower than trad northern and yet faster than the funk of groups like Ohio Players, Funkadelic etc.....music made in that wonderful late 60s / early 70s period as others have said.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Steve G

[Pete S]

I'm not for a minute saying crossover records aren't soul records, often they are incredible soul records, I just don't class 99% of them as Northern Soul and therefore they mean nothing to me, same as 99% of modern soul. It's just an opinion.

[Russ Vickers]

Crossover is the bastard child of NS & Modern Soul, it was the 'get out' clause used by DJ's who had decided to nail there colours to the wall in either one camp or the other i.e I'm only now playing sixties or I'm now only playing Modern..........when the term Crossover was coined & they realised what they were missing it enabled these DJ's to play from either decade again .........makes me titter, when Xover tunes become exceptable in the Main Room, they then become NS records, Ruby Andrews, Darrell Banks, Chuck Cockerham, Ethics, Earls, Willie Tee, Unique Blend, etc, etc, etc.............

But on a serious note, its the period between late 6ts & mid 7ts (ish), as the grittier 6ts sounds were becoming more sophisticated as recording & production techniques improved, but before the worst of the disco thang kicked in.............just to complicate things though, it can also be applied to a kinda 'sound' which could be earlier or later.

I would say that generally you have to be quite good looking & have a higher understanding of soul music to appreciate Xover, if you dont get it or dont like it, its cos your soul brain is too small.......... .

Russ

[Guest gordon russell]

When wigan closed a lot of people were cross that it was over..then formed a reactionary movement called Xover....

l wasn,t cross it was over ....stopped going in 77/78....then went to yate

[MarkWhiteley]

Xover, if you dont get it or dont like it, its cos your soul brain is too small.......... .

Russ    

Brilliant Russ

[Guest gordon russell]

XOVER IS EASY TO EXPLAIN......HERE GOES IT,S THE MUSIC THAT FOLK COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT ENOUGH BEING PLAYED AT THIS DO OR THAT DO,SO WHEN THE PROMOTER RELENTS TO THE MANY REQUESTS TO PLAY MORE OF IT AND HAS A DJ OR TWO ON THE ROSTA THAT PLAY IT...WE GET SETS OF IT AT THE WRONG TIME OF NIGHT AND THE VERY FOLK WHO ASKED FOR IT HAVE EITHER GONE HOME OR THEY'RE SAT IN A CHAIR SOMEWHERE FAST ASLEEP.....WHILE THE REST OF US WHO WANT SOME KICKING 60,S ECT ARE LEFT TO LISTEN TO IT.........THERE YA GO XOVER

[Chalky]

XOVER IS EASY TO EXPLAIN......HERE GOES IT,S THE MUSIC THAT FOLK COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT ENOUGH BEING PLAYED AT THIS DO OR THAT DO,SO WHEN THE PROMOTER RELENTS TO THE MANY REQUESTS TO PLAY MORE OF IT AND HAS A DJ OR TWO ON THE ROSTA THAT PLAY IT...WE GET SETS OF IT AT THE WRONG TIME OF NIGHT AND THE VERY FOLK WHO ASKED FOR IT HAVE EITHER GONE HOME OR THEY'RE SAT IN A CHAIR SOMEWHERE FAST ASLEEP.....WHILE THE REST OF US WHO WANT SOME KICKING 60,S ECT ARE LEFT TO LISTEN TO IT.........THERE YA GO XOVER

if I was promoting Terry I wouldn't allow an hour of crossover. As good as much of it is most you can't dance too and all you see is an almost empty floor. Also think the term is far removed from what it originally meant, it now relates more to a style rather than the era of the recording it originally related too.

Edited March 21, 2010 by chalky

[Pete S]

its cos your soul brain is too small..........

That's right, you can't just like one type of soul, you have to like all genres of soul or you're a moron not fit to shine the shoes of the ones who can encompass crossover, or even be a member of a 'soul' forum, despite it being coma-enducing.

We're not worthy Russ, you show us the way to go.

[Guest Mrs Simsy]

i imagine they called it crossover cos calling a good proportion of it "wishy-washy nonsense" would have been deemed offensive

[Russ Vickers]

That's right, you can't just like one type of soul, you have to like all genres of soul or you're a moron not fit to shine the shoes of the ones who can encompass crossover, or even be a member of a 'soul' forum, despite it being coma-enducing.

We're not worthy Russ, you show us the way to go.

Theres always one...............& I thought it would be you Pete lol.......as many of you know, I enjoy most kinds of Black Dance Music that the NS umbrella encompasses, so long as it has the X factor & its mixed into sets by competent DJ's then I'll pretty much enjoy anything............including traditional NS oldies hahahahahaha......

Russ

[Pete S]

Theres always one...............& I thought it would be you Pete lol.......as many of you know, I enjoy most kinds of Black Dance Music that the NS umbrella encompasses, so long as it has the X factor & its mixed into sets by competent DJ's then I'll pretty much enjoy anything............including traditional NS oldies hahahahahaha......

Russ

[jocko]

You really are acting your age and its related grumpiness now Petra, I suspect Russ, like me, was being very toungue in cheek in response to your early remarks!

I don't think anyone actually knows what it is now, and more to the point whether anyone who cares, gives a flying f**k what Northern fans think of crossover.

And of course the real point here is you are obviously spending half your days in the crossover thread under an assumed name or else you wouldn't know so much about it now!!

[Baz Atkinson]

Crossover is just a label -like most things on the site -often kicked about -talked about and definetly ridiculed -the thread explains perfectly what it is ie the brilliant body of work from 69-79 that on more than one occasion woul fit a bucket load of genres discussed on here !!! 107.000 HITS SO FAR AND I HAVE NOT EVEN SCRATCHED THE SURFACE OF MY COLLECTION[and also many of the contribuers] AND THAT IS THE TRUTH -the seventies just produced the most amazing period in soul music -again amplified in the thread - and before the cynics try and kick me in the bollocks and have a go at me -pm me come round to my house and see my sixties collection all anexed up and as sad as an aanorak lol!! I love it all but imho it all leads to the seventies ie the brillaint studios -sigma-muscle shoals-stax- endless really and the period in the history when a record of magnitude of say "whats going on " can be made!!!

Im proud as f--k that what was a bit fun on a friday is now turning into the definitive quide for seventies soul-if say a total stranger wanted to get into the period then point him/he the way of the thread and just start at page one and get your knowledge "its all there logo information,artistes,studio information etc etc" and we are not scratching the surface,Pete beleive it or not i respect your view -your open and honest about what you like and thats refreshing to acertain extent -but im afraid northern soul is completly and utterly lost to me -infact I honestly dont know what the f--k it is anymore and more to the point I dont really care !!

jock im deffo at next lifeline mate -and theres a lift for you if you get down to milson pines on the afternoon -!!!

BAZ A.

[jocko]

if I was promoting Terry I wouldn't allow an hour of crossover. As good as much of it is most you can't dance too and all you see is an almost empty floor. Also think the term is far removed from what it originally meant, it now relates more to a style rather than the era of the recording it originally related too.

I agree with you totally re the current definition being different, but that is really as a symptom I think of the whole 70's movement now being attached to it, I do think you are being a bit simplistic, and unfair over it being the cause of empty dancefloors, is that not now the due to the same reason as ever, dj's who don't know what to do with that sort of music???

I know for a fact Soul Essence doesn't have a minute of empty dance floor never mind an hour and it plays "crossover" all weekend, or a fair chunk of it, and I suspect Just Soul and Monumental and similar dos have very busy dance floors all night, so I think the issue is horse for courses, people go to these venues knowing exactly what they want. I don't really know many crossover fans that go to an all-nighter expecting an hour of it to be honest, in fact most don't go to all nighters now, which I think is an interesting observation, but for another thread,

The real issue is I suspect lots of people judge it without knowing what it really is or any of it history, lots of the initial stuff was not slow or even mid-tempo, that's more prominent now and is used only at the right venues, the original stuff was appearing at end of Stafford, Buddy Ace, Buddy Connor, etc etc so its hardly new, the Stafford playlists were littered with crossover in its original definition and it was still up-tempo dance music.

An Andy Whitmore set is full of "kicking" stuff and is very rarely down tempo, just sadly lots of todays DJ's haven't been able to replace guys like him, although interesting to see lots of his plays ala Ethics, Larry Davis, Cloveers, now recognised as worthy of play at these kicking uptempo do's, years after being crossover classics. I wouldn't mind but lots of these kicking 60's that people getting excited over arent' really that new, the ones I read about are basically lots of rehashes of stuff that was being played all over the place in the 80's, mixed in with this now much maligned crossover!

I am off over the crossover thread to post some stuff that isn't really crossover, just to keep people confused.......

[KevH]

Rod was the first person to use the word , using / coining the term he thought suitable to describe records that would have a broader appeal .

As for the use of " crossover " and the application of the term " Modern " to records , Sean Hampsey and Tats Taylor have to be given recognition for its' incoperation / application into the terminology of the soul scene , for their belief in the records from the offset .

Malc Burton

Spot on as usual Malc.They also formed Crossover because they knew better looking women would flock to that scene.And drive their hubby's home after a hard night's shuffling... .

Also the "marking system" was invented (1 - 10. Anything less than an 8 was not to be played.....or was Northern ).Tin hat on.

[Paul-s]

Ah Crossover, that's easy.

Too slow / unknown / rare / new / soulful (delete as applicable) for the Northern scene.

Too old for the Modern scene.

Uncomfortable bed partner of both scenes though & equally brilliant & sometimes awful.

Right what's next then???

ABSOLUTELY GREAT DESCRIPTION...

[Paul-s]

Used to think that too. The guitars, specially tend to be real messy, I supose it's not easy to get a good crossover sound, and there's definitely a lot of garbage, specially group harmonies, but there's also some amazing records: Patti Drew - Stop And Listen being a great example.

I wouldn't call that xover..

[Steve G]

XOVER IS EASY TO EXPLAIN......HERE GOES IT,S THE MUSIC THAT FOLK COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT ENOUGH BEING PLAYED AT THIS DO OR THAT DO,SO WHEN THE PROMOTER RELENTS TO THE MANY REQUESTS TO PLAY MORE OF IT AND HAS A DJ OR TWO ON THE ROSTA THAT PLAY IT...WE GET SETS OF IT AT THE WRONG TIME OF NIGHT AND THE VERY FOLK WHO ASKED FOR IT HAVE EITHER GONE HOME OR THEY'RE SAT IN A CHAIR SOMEWHERE FAST ASLEEP.....WHILE THE REST OF US WHO WANT SOME KICKING 60,S ECT ARE LEFT TO LISTEN TO IT.........THERE YA GO XOVER

Hey Terry, pop your head round the door at Soul Essence - there you'll find everyone dancing until 5 a.m. rammed dancefloor and when the last record gets to fade everyone cheers and chants "one more one more". Now that's crossover.

[jocko]

Hey Terry, pop your head round the door at Soul Essence - there you'll find everyone dancing until 5 a.m. rammed dancefloor and when the last record gets to fade everyone cheers and chants "one more one more". Now that's crossover.

I was just on my way back up to chastise Terry but you are much more qualified, and very well said!!

You really need to write more Mr G (cmon how much flattery is it going to take before we see Blackbeat 2010, at least an online version )

[Little-stevie]

Hey Terry, pop your head round the door at Soul Essence - there you'll find everyone dancing until 5 a.m. rammed dancefloor and when the last record gets to fade everyone cheers and chants "one more one more". Now that's crossover.

I think we had this topic of late???

Some pretty good descriptions on that thread if i remember correct...

Will have a look in the morning....

[Pete S]

the seventies just produced the most amazing period in soul music

F*ck me I must have missed that!

[Mike Lofthouse]

cheers and chants "one more one more". Now that's crossover.

...and this year Steve we want the the 'one more' (or even two).....

[Guest]

That's right, you can't just like one type of soul, you have to like all genres of soul or you're a moron not fit to shine the shoes of the ones who can encompass crossover, or even be a member of a 'soul' forum, despite it being coma-enducing.

We're not worthy Russ, you show us the way to go.

This is exactly how I felt the other day, when you made your rude comment to me on my Glen Miller / Stag post !

fooking annoying innit Bruv !

[Steve G]

...and this year Steve we want the the 'one more' (or even two).....

Only if you all shout loudly and stamp your feet

[Mike Lofthouse]

Only if you all shout loudly and stamp your feet

Maybe if we did it quietly it would go unnoticed by the owners

[Eddie Hubbard]

I'm not for a minute saying crossover records aren't soul records, often they are incredible soul records, I just don't class 99% of them as Northern Soul and therefore they mean nothing to me, same as 99% of modern soul. It's just an opinion.

Thats fair enough Pete ,I wouldn't consider many of them to be Northern Soul either , however many have crossed back to the Northern Soul rooms [ Richard Caiton , Bitter and The Sweet etc ] , so this blurs the line somewhat .Cheers mate ,Eddie

[Pete S]

This is exactly how I felt the other day, when you made your rude comment to me on my Glen Miller / Stag post !

fooking annoying innit Bruv !

No not really.

p.s. which Glen Miller post, there's so many of them.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Pete S

[Chalky]

I do agree with you Jock about most of what you say but not everything the dj's play is crossover but 70s dance music, there is a difference IMO yet everyone these days seems to class everything 70s as crossover.

I've heard some great sets, especially from the likes of Andy Whitmore, Steve G, Dave Rippoles to full dancefloors but they do program plenty of records of the right tempo which I wouldn't necessarily class as crossover. I've also heard some dj's play an hour of plodders to an empty dancefloor, often quality crossover but not what you want at an allnighter. As you say venues like Soul Essence is a different experience, those that go there go for crossover, 70s dance and modern.

I agree with you totally re the current definition being different, but that is really as a symptom I think of the whole 70's movement now being attached to it, I do think you are being a bit simplistic, and unfair over it being the cause of empty dancefloors, is that not now the due to the same reason as ever, dj's who don't know what to do with that sort of music???

I know for a fact Soul Essence doesn't have a minute of empty dance floor never mind an hour and it plays "crossover" all weekend, or a fair chunk of it, and I suspect Just Soul and Monumental and similar dos have very busy dance floors all night, so I think the issue is horse for courses, people go to these venues knowing exactly what they want. I don't really know many crossover fans that go to an all-nighter expecting an hour of it to be honest, in fact most don't go to all nighters now, which I think is an interesting observation, but for another thread,

The real issue is I suspect lots of people judge it without knowing what it really is or any of it history, lots of the initial stuff was not slow or even mid-tempo, that's more prominent now and is used only at the right venues, the original stuff was appearing at end of Stafford, Buddy Ace, Buddy Connor, etc etc so its hardly new, the Stafford playlists were littered with crossover in its original definition and it was still up-tempo dance music.

An Andy Whitmore set is full of "kicking" stuff and is very rarely down tempo, just sadly lots of todays DJ's haven't been able to replace guys like him, although interesting to see lots of his plays ala Ethics, Larry Davis, Cloveers, now recognised as worthy of play at these kicking uptempo do's, years after being crossover classics. I wouldn't mind but lots of these kicking 60's that people getting excited over arent' really that new, the ones I read about are basically lots of rehashes of stuff that was being played all over the place in the 80's, mixed in with this now much maligned crossover!

I am off over the crossover thread to post some stuff that isn't really crossover, just to keep people confused.......

Edited March 22, 2010 by chalky

[Guest Brett F]

Soul Essence, Nantwich Dab of Soul, Monumental, Filthy Soul, Just Soul, Chill Out Metrodome, Morecambe weekeder, Greatstone all packed dancefloors, and these are just a few of the venues that champion Crossover in their respective dj sets, and thank God for these venues, because i'd just be sat home playing records to myself if they didn't exist. We are all different soul fans, let's just stick to what we like , Baz Atkinson sums it all up for me, I'm in your camp Baz when the blood letting begins.

[Chalky]

think the problems arise when "crossover" dj's are programed into a predominaty northern night/allnighter, that's where the empty dancefloors can often happen and therefore some can't stick to what they like. The venues you mention are crossover, 70's and modern soul nights so you are hardly going to get empty dancefloors and complaints from 60's diehards.

As others quite rightly said get over to the crossover Friday topic for a better understanding. That will explain the genre far better than words on this topic.

Soul Essence, Nantwich Dab of Soul, Monumental, Filthy Soul, Just Soul, Chill Out Metrodome, Morecambe weekeder, Greatstone all packed dancefloors, and these are just a few of the venues that champion Crossover in their respective dj sets, and thank God for these venues, because i'd just be sat home playing records to myself if they didn't exist. We are all different soul fans, let's just stick to what we like , Baz Atkinson sums it all up for me, I'm in your camp Baz when the blood letting begins.

[Guest James Trouble]

weird HTML edit>

Edited March 22, 2010 by James Trouble

[Pete S]

It's silly when people talk about 'funk' when quite clearly they don't have a clue about what it is or what it means.

Funkadelic and Ohio Players As ridiculous as saying that Northern Soul is Skiing In The Snow and Soft Cell.

But if you ask a regular Joe like me for an instant answer to the question "name a funk band of the 70's" I'd probably blurt out "The JB's" or "Kool & The Gang"! It's a question of scratching the surface to find out what's underneath I think.