Hi all, just joined the site and have a question.

British 45's, obviously things like Motown and Stateside and such are easy to determine but what about stuff released on Kent/Sevens/Soul City (recent stuff) etc ?

Where a record has not previously been released here in th UK before would this be classed as an original UK issue ?

The value of some for instance the stuff released on Grapevine and the early orange RCA seem to be escalating in price,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, are they worth collecting ??? would be interested to hear from any avid UK collectors.

Thanks,

Nick

  On 09/03/2010 at 14:00, meddlinwivmodern said:

Hi all, just joined the site and have a question.

British 45's, obviously things like Motown and Stateside and such are easy to determine but what about stuff released on Kent/Sevens/Soul City (recent stuff) etc ?

Where a record has not previously been released here in th UK before would this be classed as an original UK issue ?

The value of some for instance the stuff released on Grapevine and the early orange RCA seem to be escalating in price,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, are they worth collecting ??? would be interested to hear from any avid UK collectors.

Thanks,

Nick

I collect British and I always class the Grapevines etc as being separate from my main collection which is just 60's plus the odd rare 70's release (Jon Ford, Skullsnaps etc). Most Grapevine singles are overpriced because of the f*ckwits buying them having little or no knowledge.

  On 09/03/2010 at 14:09, Pete S said:

I collect British and I always class the Grapevines etc as being separate from my main collection which is just 60's plus the odd rare 70's release (Jon Ford, Skullsnaps etc). Most Grapevine singles are overpriced because of the f*ckwits buying them having little or no knowledge.

yep grapevine stuff well over priced...seen sam williams go for silly money before now! god knows what theyre asking for a lester tipton now, wish id bought 100 of each when they were pressed

stick to the proper british stuff mate, loads here to collect and many at reasonable prices!

Thanks guys, my thoughts were that they were over priced. Not collected for so many years now that it seemed ridiculous. When I did collect I bought british whenever I could.

Are there any useful links to the british stuff available on the web ? Used to use price guides but not going to buy any if anything is available on the web.

  On 09/03/2010 at 16:01, meddlinwivmodern said:

Thanks guys, my thoughts were that they were over priced. Not collected for so many years now that it seemed ridiculous. When I did collect I bought british whenever I could.

Are there any useful links to the british stuff available on the web ? Used to use price guides but not going to buy any if anything is available on the web.

keepa close eye on this site mate, always plenty of good bargains coming up - have a look back at some of the sales list, some may still be up for grabs ifyou contat the seller, other than that its sites like john manship, pat brady records, domar records, musicstack and soon.

happy hunting

  On 09/03/2010 at 16:05, grant said:

keepa close eye on this site mate, always plenty of good bargains coming up - have a look back at some of the sales list, some may still be up for grabs ifyou contat the seller, other than that its sites like john manship, pat brady records, domar records, musicstack and soon.

happy hunting

cheers Grant will do.

Nick

  On 09/03/2010 at 14:00, meddlinwivmodern said:

Hi all, just joined the site and have a question.

British 45's, obviously things like Motown and Stateside and such are easy to determine but what about stuff released on Kent/Sevens/Soul City (recent stuff) etc ?

Where a record has not previously been released here in th UK before would this be classed as an original UK issue ?

The value of some for instance the stuff released on Grapevine and the early orange RCA seem to be escalating in price,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, are they worth collecting ??? would be interested to hear from any avid UK collectors.

Thanks,

Nick

To answer this part of the question;

"Where a record has not previously been released here in the UK before would this be classed as an original UK issue ?"

The answer is YES.

as a collector who has not brought for years but in his time used to be ridiculed for having rare uk items in his collection as it was not fashionable - i cannot see why anybody would want to collect labels specifically used to release US labelled classic soul sounds anymore than collect US bootlegs etc.

my collection was all about originals, and that included my UK labels and where possible i would try and get a UK lablled copy of a US release if one existed

i would say to any collector to collect want you like, collect what you can afford (and i really pushed this one to the limits), and if money is an issue as i guess it would be for most collectors with todays high prices collect smart - get collectors to make tapes (do they still exist or is it done with CD's now) of good, collectable, cheaper to purchase sounds UK or US

my collection numbers around 500, of which about 60/70 are UK rarities which includes the likes of - roy hamilton panic is on (demo), cajun hart - find a way (demo), ray pollard - drifter and sad thing (demos), but far more subtle items like sam & bill - i'll try (demo), intrigues - in a moment (demo) - but if i stuck to UK labels only i would have missed out on the other 430 disks i have

  On 09/03/2010 at 17:45, denbo said:

To answer this part of the question;

"Where a record has not previously been released here in the UK before would this be classed as an original UK issue ?"

The answer is YES.

I concur!

  On 09/03/2010 at 19:20, ganesh said:

as a collector who has not brought for years but in his time used to be ridiculed for having rare uk items in his collection as it was not fashionable - i cannot see why anybody would want to collect labels specifically used to release US labelled classic soul sounds anymore than collect US bootlegs etc.

my collection was all about originals, and that included my UK labels and where possible i would try and get a UK lablled copy of a US release if one existed

i would say to any collector to collect want you like, collect what you can afford (and i really pushed this one to the limits), and if money is an issue as i guess it would be for most collectors with todays high prices collect smart - get collectors to make tapes (do they still exist or is it done with CD's now) of good, collectable, cheaper to purchase sounds UK or US

my collection numbers around 500, of which about 60/70 are UK rarities which includes the likes of - roy hamilton panic is on (demo), cajun hart - find a way (demo), ray pollard - drifter and sad thing (demos), but far more subtle items like sam & bill - i'll try (demo), intrigues - in a moment (demo) - but if i stuck to UK labels only i would have missed out on the other 430 disks i have

Ganesh,

Thanks for your views, I like yourself have not collected for years, I had to sell my collection 16 years ago when I got into financial trouble. Redundancy etc . The prices of the vinyl these days both amazes me and sickens me. I used to travel a lot within the States and used to rummage through all the usual places and picked up some right bargains !. However, if I could get a 45 on a British label I would, but obviuosly until recently some of the US 45's never got a release in the UK in the 60's and 70's.

I too only collected originals and never would buy a boot, that is just the way I wanted to collect. But I cannot help being drawn back to those principles for the UK stuff, if it did not get released back in the day then released now on the likes of Soul City/Sevens etc it must be that these are original UK releases of the the US 45's.

Take Doris Troy ''I'll do anythibng'' for instance, Came out on Cameo Parkway, Toast and Mojo I think in the UK, correct me if I am wrong all you die hards, but to me the original UK issue is Cameo Parkway.

Peggy March came out on RCA Victor and then issued on the orange RCA, same applies here. But what about things like Lee Roye 'Tears' ? came out on MCA here in the UK, was it released before ? If not then it has to be the original UK issue.

  On 10/03/2010 at 08:38, meddlinwivmodern said:

Ganesh,

Thanks for your views, I like yourself have not collected for years, I had to sell my collection 16 years ago when I got into financial trouble. Redundancy etc . The prices of the vinyl these days both amazes me and sickens me. I used to travel a lot within the States and used to rummage through all the usual places and picked up some right bargains !. However, if I could get a 45 on a British label I would, but obviuosly until recently some of the US 45's never got a release in the UK in the 60's and 70's.

I too only collected originals and never would buy a boot, that is just the way I wanted to collect. But I cannot help being drawn back to those principles for the UK stuff, if it did not get released back in the day then released now on the likes of Soul City/Sevens etc it must be that these are original UK releases of the the US 45's.

Take Doris Troy ''I'll do anythibng'' for instance, Came out on Cameo Parkway, Toast and Mojo I think in the UK, correct me if I am wrong all you die hards, but to me the original UK issue is Cameo Parkway.

Peggy March came out on RCA Victor and then issued on the orange RCA, same applies here. But what about things like Lee Roye 'Tears' ? came out on MCA here in the UK, was it released before ? If not then it has to be the original UK issue.

The difference is that Lee Roye and hundreds of others were released because of Northern demand, therefore they were automatically tailored to the NS scene. Records from the previous decade came out, didn't sell anything, and so were and still are hard to find. That's why I wouldn't put a UK copy of Lee Roye in my collection (but would do on US). Earlier this year I sold a tremendous UK collection, I kept Chapter 5, Chubby Checker and a few others, I couldn't let labels dictate to me what I was going to buy, so I just buy what I like - I do prefer a nice red and white demo to anything else though.

  On 09/03/2010 at 14:18, grant said:

yep grapevine stuff well over priced...seen sam williams go for silly money before now! god knows what theyre asking for a lester tipton now, wish id bought 100 of each when they were pressed

stick to the proper british stuff mate, loads here to collect and many at reasonable prices!

Yeah but where does that leave the Grapevine stuff that had never seen a release either here or in the US (ie Betty Boo) ? Is that not proper either ?

  On 10/03/2010 at 10:31, martyn said:

Yeah but where does that leave the Grapevine stuff that had never seen a release either here or in the US (ie Betty Boo) ? Is that not proper either ?

What do you mean by 'proper'?

It's just a question of having a cut off point, date wise.

I wouldn't include Jayboy's in my 'proper' UK collection despite it being a fantastic label. I class it as a 70's (mainly) reissue label. The only one I'd keep would be Ray merrell, the rest would go with the reissues.

Betty Boo lives in my "all time favourites" section anyway but I wouldn't put it with my UK collection.

Edited March 10, 201015 yr by Pete S

  On 10/03/2010 at 10:40, Pete S said:

What do you mean by 'proper'?

It's just a question of having a cut off point, date wise.

I wouldn't include Jayboy's in my 'proper' UK collection despite it being a fantastic label. I class it as a 70's (mainly) reissue label. The only one I'd keep would be Ray merrell, the rest would go with the reissues.

Betty Boo lives in my "all time favourites" section anyway but I wouldn't put it with my UK collection.

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the comments, my original post was really asking about the UK validity of records first issued here in the UK. I accept that yes the USA is the origin of most of NS records and this is most definitely the ORIGINAL of any vinyl as it is it's first source, with the exception of Chapter Five and such.

But when collecting British labels surely, in the case of Lee Roye and all those issued in the 70's this is the first issue in the UK of the record so therefore is the UK original label, irrespective of date ?

Yes to the elitist's among the NS fraternity it is frowned upon to collect these labels but from a British collectors viewpoint they must be original issues ?

Where a record was issued in the 60's did not sell, then issued again,possibly on the same label, then yes that to me is a reissue, like for instance the Peggy March I mentioned in a previous reply.

  On 10/03/2010 at 12:06, meddlinwivmodern said:

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the comments, my original post was really asking about the UK validity of records first issued here in the UK. I accept that yes the USA is the origin of most of NS records and this is most definitely the ORIGINAL of any vinyl as it is it's first source, with the exception of Chapter Five and such.

But when collecting British labels surely, in the case of Lee Roye and all those issued in the 70's this is the first issue in the UK of the record so therefore is the UK original label, irrespective of date ?

Yes to the elitist's among the NS fraternity it is frowned upon to collect these labels but from a British collectors viewpoint they must be original issues ?

Where a record was issued in the 60's did not sell, then issued again,possibly on the same label, then yes that to me is a reissue, like for instance the Peggy March I mentioned in a previous reply.

I think the point re the UK items has been missed- Its not about collecting as people collect bootleg Uk items eg Soul-Sounds label and that isnt frowned upon- Its taken that you can collect anything- Its about playing it out as a DJ is when the question arises as to its originality of release.

ATB Steve and welcome

  On 10/03/2010 at 10:40, Pete S said:

What do you mean by 'proper'?

It's just a question of having a cut off point, date wise.

I wouldn't include Jayboy's in my 'proper' UK collection despite it being a fantastic label. I class it as a 70's (mainly) reissue label. The only one I'd keep would be Ray merrell, the rest would go with the reissues.

Betty Boo lives in my "all time favourites" section anyway but I wouldn't put it with my UK collection.

Sorry Pete, but i play this out. Harder to find and dearer than "dade" issue

Manship quote "RARE demo! Currently massively in-demand and this is certainly it's most-desirable format!"

  On 10/03/2010 at 12:38, Ernie Andrews said:

I think the point re the UK items has been missed- Its not about collecting as people collect bootleg Uk items eg Soul-Sounds label and that isnt frowned upon- Its taken that you can collect anything- Its about playing it out as a DJ is when the question arises as to its originality of release.

ATB Steve and welcome

Spot on Steve, think the point has been missed. The question I was asking is do British collectors regard such records as original UK issues and as such are they worth collecting?

The value is irrelevant to me, if you collect something, whatever it may be, you strive to gain a complete collection as is with records.

I agree, DJ's seem to be required by the masses to only play original US copies, it is just the way it is. I have no interest in DJing and never did have, I just collected and preferred to be on the floor as punter !

I think Berry Gordy got it right.......... 'It's what's in the groove that counts'

Interesting thread, thanks for all your input guys.

ATB,

Nick

Nick,

I'd just ask who are you collecting for?

If it's for you then it only matters what you think.

I collect for me and although I DJ I don't buy anything on that basis. I buy what I like and what I can afford on original labels. I have the complete run of Grapevine Demos but wouldn't play them out for the reason Pete keeps his 'northern led demand' releases seperate from his 'released at the time' British.

Whatever you decide to do, do it for you nobody else, is the best advice me or anyone else can give.

Ged

  On 10/03/2010 at 08:38, meddlinwivmodern said:

Ganesh,

Thanks for your views, I like yourself have not collected for years, I had to sell my collection 16 years ago when I got into financial trouble. Redundancy etc . The prices of the vinyl these days both amazes me and sickens me. I used to travel a lot within the States and used to rummage through all the usual places and picked up some right bargains !. However, if I could get a 45 on a British label I would, but obviuosly until recently some of the US 45's never got a release in the UK in the 60's and 70's.

I too only collected originals and never would buy a boot, that is just the way I wanted to collect. But I cannot help being drawn back to those principles for the UK stuff, if it did not get released back in the day then released now on the likes of Soul City/Sevens etc it must be that these are original UK releases of the the US 45's.

Take Doris Troy ''I'll do anythibng'' for instance, Came out on Cameo Parkway, Toast and Mojo I think in the UK, correct me if I am wrong all you die hards, but to me the original UK issue is Cameo Parkway.

Peggy March came out on RCA Victor and then issued on the orange RCA, same applies here. But what about things like Lee Roye 'Tears' ? came out on MCA here in the UK, was it released before ? If not then it has to be the original UK issue.

Not sure what point you're making. Yes, technically, what you're talking about are original issues in the UK but if they're released 10, 20, 30, 40 years after the US original then they're all pressings/reissues to me (that's not to say that some of them aren't hard to find nowadays).

Jorge

  On 10/03/2010 at 10:40, Pete S said:

What do you mean by 'proper'?

It's just a question of having a cut off point, date wise.

I wouldn't include Jayboy's in my 'proper' UK collection despite it being a fantastic label. I class it as a 70's (mainly) reissue label. The only one I'd keep would be Ray merrell, the rest would go with the reissues.

Betty Boo lives in my "all time favourites" section anyway but I wouldn't put it with my UK collection.

Pete , look at the post I replied to , thats where 'proper' came from .

I would say Betty Boo (amongst others) is a legit British original , its a first release . It may not be rare but then some of the 60s stateside or London stuff are just as easy to get ......Only playing devils advocate really as I seldom buy British if there's a US original I can get

  On 09/03/2010 at 14:00, meddlinwivmodern said:

The value of some for instance the stuff released on Grapevine and the early orange RCA seem to be escalating in price, are they worth collecting?

I'd say yes Nick.

I sold a Roy Hamilton - 'Cracking up' on the orange RCA (after locating and purchasing a real one). Reissue went for nearly fifty quid on Ebay. I was amazed!

Buying new UK releases maybe will put some money in the pocket of the artist, buying an original 60's 45 certainly doesn't what ever country it was released in.

  On 10/03/2010 at 15:39, Simsy said:

I'd say yes Nick.

I sold a Roy Hamilton - 'Cracking up' on the orange RCA (after locating and purchasing a real one). Reissue went for nearly fifty quid on Ebay. I was amazed!

Thats an import though, he means the UK ones like Beverly Ann etc

  On 11/03/2010 at 16:48, Pete S said:

Thats an import though, he means the UK ones like Beverly Ann etc

PM Pete

  On 10/03/2010 at 12:59, gogs said:

Sorry Pete, but i play this out. Harder to find and dearer than "dade" issue

Manship quote "RARE demo! Currently massively in-demand and this is certainly it's most-desirable format!"

this was never issued on jayboy for the northern scene tho. it came out the same time or just after the usa copy. so its got as much right to be played on jayboy as dade. in the same way as darrell banks uk counterparts have to be played on stateside, red atlantic or yellow stax.......

pete probably wouldn`t buy it or play it tho.

dave

  On 13/03/2010 at 16:00, dave pinch said:

pete probably wouldn`t buy it or play it tho.

dave

How could you know???

Hello,

It's worth remembering that many of the President / Jay Boy 45s were issued as new releases so it's unfair to categorise them as reissue labels.

Although a lot of the early Jay Boy singles were back-catalogue things, as time went on (particularly from 1975) they focused more on contemporary music via their licensing deal with TK.

Apart from the hits by KC & The Sunshine Band and George McCrae, they issued great soul 45s by Willie & Anthony, Miami featuring Robert Moore, Jackie Beavers, Ruby Wilson etc - all as new releases.

Likewise, on the main President label they issued new 45s by Latimore, Archie Bell & The Drells, Little Beaver, Gwen McCrae, Toby King, The Controllers, Otis Clay etc.

And on their Seville label they had contemporary releases by Snoopy Dean and Little Milton (also via TK) and other interesting stuff by Dooley Silverspoon etc - not to forget that great obscure 45 by George Flame. And I almost forgot about their Crystal label (new or fairly recent stuff by Diane Jenkins, Wisdom etc) and Barak Records which released those great 45s by Sir Ted Ford and Jackie Payne in 1977.

So I think they should be recognised as being contemporary and even a bit adventurous at times. And it's worth noting that when TK switched UK licensees to RCA and then to CBS the soul output was much less interesting - just a handful of good 45s by Facts Of Life, The Controllers and Latimore.

The same applies to Contempo who are often unfairly described as a reissue label. Most of their 45s were contemporary and many were also quite adventurous in my opinion.

Best regards,

Paul

Hear Hear Paul!

  On 13/03/2010 at 18:00, Pete S said:

How could you know???

pete you not committing yourself, i know you love these 70's sounds

  On 13/03/2010 at 18:53, Paul Mooney said:

Hello,

It's worth remembering that many of the President / Jay Boy 45s were issued as new releases so it's unfair to categorise them as reissue labels.

Although a lot of the early Jay Boy singles were back-catalogue things, as time went on (particularly from 1975) they focused more on contemporary music via their licensing deal with TK.

Apart from the hits by KC & The Sunshine Band and George McCrae, they issued great soul 45s by Willie & Anthony, Miami featuring Robert Moore, Jackie Beavers, Ruby Wilson etc - all as new releases.

Likewise, on the main President label they issued new 45s by Latimore, Archie Bell & The Drells, Little Beaver, Gwen McCrae, Toby King, The Controllers, Otis Clay etc.

And on their Seville label they had contemporary releases by Snoopy Dean and Little Milton (also via TK) and other interesting stuff by Dooley Silverspoon etc - not to forget that great obscure 45 by George Flame. And I almost forgot about their Crystal label (new or fairly recent stuff by Diane Jenkins, Wisdom etc) and Barak Records which released those great 45s by Sir Ted Ford and Jackie Payne in 1977.

So I think they should be recognised as being contemporary and even a bit adventurous at times. And it's worth noting that when TK switched UK licensees to RCA and then to CBS the soul output was much less interesting - just a handful of good 45s by Facts Of Life, The Controllers and Latimore.

The same applies to Contempo who are often unfairly described as a reissue label. Most of their 45s were contemporary and many were also quite adventurous in my opinion.

Best regards,

Paul

Very worthwhile observations as usual Paul, but you have me thinking now, you do mean Toby Kang don't you, and are you referring to one or more 7"/45 UK releases from his much sought after US LP on Chelsea ? If so what were they ?

  On 15/03/2010 at 04:44, sunnysoul said:

Very worthwhile observations as usual Paul, but you have me thinking now, you do mean Toby Kang don't you, and are you referring to one or more 7"/45 UK releases from his much sought after US LP on Chelsea ? If so what were they ?

Hello,

The Toby King 45 I referred to was 'First Man To Die From The Blues', issued in the US on TK's Drive label and in the UK on President (1975 I think).

It wasn't from his rare Chelsea LP.

And I think King is his real name.

Buy British, some great tunes coming out today, tomorrows collectables.

  On 16/03/2010 at 16:57, funkyfeet said:

Buy British, some great tunes coming out today, tomorrows collectables.

OK , Ill get right on it