Does Northern Soul Celebrate Failure More Than Success?

[Guest Paul]

I just realised that I didn't address the other points in Ian's original question - and I assume he's referring to the success of The Casino, Russ Winstanley, Ian Levine, Kev Roberts etc.

Yes, it's odd that many people seem to ridicule success but I think (at least I hope) it's mostly because of different musical tastes, politics or personalities.

My simple theory is that most people have a general tendency to remember the good things about people they like and they remember the bad things about people they dislike. We all have selective memories, often without intention.

I don't have any reason to personally dislike Russ Winstanley (for example) but I didn't rate his taste much as a DJ so I tend to remember the bad tracks he played at The Casino, whereas I tend to remember all the good tracks played at The Mecca by Ian Levine and Colin Curtis.

I have great admiration and respect for successful organisations such as Motown, Stax and Philadelphia International and it's fair to say that most of the obscure soul records which are cherished on the northern and modern soul scenes were influenced (to various degrees) by those great companies.

The late Bob Relf told me that most of the Mirwood / Keymen tracks were heavily influenced by Motown - not just because they liked the Motown sound but because they wanted to sell millions of copies. They were obviously focused on success.

So the question is ...if tracks such as 'My Little Girl', 'The Same Old Thing' and 'Try A Little Harder' had been big hits, would some people still like them so much ?

I hope so.

[Guest soulboy]

Agreed there, most kids who were into soul came from working class backgrounds. But feelings of working class solidarity had nothing to do with my reasons for getting into soul, consciously or otherwise. Same for my mates. As I've said, exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, quintessentially modernist values. It would never have occurred to us that we ought to feel any kind of special affinity with society's less fortunate members, whether they lived in England or North America. Probably explains why we've never had a Labour MP where I lived, and why Labour representation in the South East, as well as trade union membership, are fairly negligible. Same for me today to be honest. I don't particularly care about the social background of the artists, or those who appreciate their work. I like the music, that's it. I don't even care about the exclusivity part any more. That was a teenage thing.

Very true ! I agree with you it is about exclusivity,I always wondered about the money side of it, how 'working class' people could afford to pay out such large amounts on must have records. Was this the start of the Chavisum ? Do you think out of work kids today would scrape up enough money to buy a one off record that no one as ever heard of cos they must have it ?Like a pair of trainers or tee shirt that costs 50 times one from primart ? they dont care that some kid of 10 earned 5 pence a year making them ,they want exclusivity Or is it a case of the emperors new clothes?

[Guest Gogs]

Very true ! I agree with you it is about exclusivity,I always wondered about the money side of it, how 'working class' people could afford to pay out such large amounts on must have records. Was this the start of the Chavisum ? Do you think out of work kids today would scrape up enough money to buy a one off record that no one as ever heard of cos they must have it ?Like a pair of trainers or tee shirt that costs 50 times one from primart ? they dont care that some kid of 10 earned 5 pence a year making them ,they want exclusivity Or is it a case of the emperors new clothes?

Got to say that i was a bit lucky in this respest, when i left school i got a seasonal job working as a salmon river bailiff up in Stornoway, i didn't smoke or drink at the time and got a wage of £30 per week but all my food and board were covered. when i came back home my pal had had his push bike stolen (building our own bikes was a passion we were both into, and we had some crackers). He offered to sell me his entire northern collection for £80, to say i nearly bit his hand off is an understatement, This was my first go at record buying, unfortunatly i never recovered from this.

After going to collage for a year i got a well paid job, but it involved a lot of overtime, this kept me from travelling to venues like Wigan etc, although i did manage to attend local niters such as clouds, Leith town hall etc, where i always had money to buy off the record dealers (though not always wisely).

Don't know if this makes sense, but once the music is in your soul it is there to stay.

[Guest Paul]

Very true ! I agree with you it is about exclusivity,I always wondered about the money side of it, how 'working class' people could afford to pay out such large amounts on must have records. Was this the start of the Chavisum ? Do you think out of work kids today would scrape up enough money to buy a one off record that no one as ever heard of cos they must have it ?Like a pair of trainers or tee shirt that costs 50 times one from primart ? they dont care that some kid of 10 earned 5 pence a year making them ,they want exclusivity Or is it a case of the emperors new clothes?

Hello,

I don't think it was about affordability (in those days) as much as it was about taste and knowledge. Records weren't very expensive and in many cases I bought records as new releases, new imports or deletions and found that some eventually became "in-demand" and started to attract big prices.

I remember having difficulty selling copies of Sam Dees (SSS Int), Bill Brandon (Peidmont), Lew Kirton (Alston), Guitar Ray (Shagg), Stephens & Foster (Jerri), Jimmy Beaumont (Drive), Innersection (Group 5), Seven Souls (Okeh), Wade Flemons (Ramsel), The Out-Of-Sights (Saru) and many others like that for more than a few pounds each in the late 1970s and early 1980s. They weren't in demand and weren't known or considered to be very rare ...which proves that demand drives the prices, not the real or perceived rarity. Obviously I wish I'd kept spare copies of those records so I could have cashed-in at the right time.

This ultra-rare and ultra-expensive aspect of the scene didn't really exist in those days and I'm not really sure when things started to get a bit over the top. Probably in the late '80s but others will know more about that than I do.

I never paid high prices for any records but in recent years I've paid up to £100 or so (...shock, horror!) once in a while for a special 45 or LP. In fact, the most I've ever paid for a 45 is £120 for a fresh mint copy of "I'm Taking On Pain" by Tommy Tate on Okeh. And I suppose that's "small money" to most rare soul fans and collectors.

But, on the other hand, I splashed out on a vintage Fender Precision bass guitar (same as the one played by James Jamerson) and I've spent thousands on equipment in my studio.

So we are all prepared to spend big money on certain things for different reasons... I'm just not into exclusivity, that's all.

I'm one of the common people.

[Guest]

ame='gogs' date='27 February 2010 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1267234707' post='1273782']

Can't say I agree with that, I don't know anyone who thinks that the poor have any virtues, or that they deserve any special consideration, if they deserve any consideration at all. I believe that rare records evolved on the scene because they were exclusive, not because they were unsuccessful (but of course it was their lack of success that made them exclusive--there is a subtle distinction here that is worth pursuing). Exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, the virtues of modernism, and quite the opposite of "socialism".

No mate, the opposite of Socialism is Fascism and buzzing off of getting hold of a rare Northern demo does not make somebody a Fascist, although there are of course Fascists who dig Northern Soul.

Strangely.

Edited February 28, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

I just realised that I didn't address the other points in Ian's original question - and I assume he's referring to the success of The Casino, Russ Winstanley, Ian Levine, Kev Roberts etc.

Yes, it's odd that many people seem to ridicule success but I think (at least I hope) it's mostly because of different musical tastes, politics or personalities.

My simple theory is that most people have a general tendency to remember the good things about people they like and they remember the bad things about people they dislike. We all have selective memories, often without intention.

I don't have any reason to personally dislike Russ Winstanley (for example) but I didn't rate his taste much as a DJ so I tend to remember the bad tracks he played at The Casino, whereas I tend to remember all the good tracks played at The Mecca by Ian Levine and Colin Curtis.

I have great admiration and respect for successful organisations such as Motown, Stax and Philadelphia International and it's fair to say that most of the obscure soul records which are cherished on the northern and modern soul scenes were influenced (to various degrees) by those great companies.

The late Bob Relf told me that most of the Mirwood / Keymen tracks were heavily influenced by Motown - not just because they liked the Motown sound but because they wanted to sell millions of copies. They were obviously focused on success.

So the question is ...if tracks such as 'My Little Girl', 'The Same Old Thing' and 'Try A Little Harder' had been big hits, would some people still like them so much ?

I hope so.

I know I would have done. There is something wrong with the motives of anybody who would not have.

[Guest]

Agreed there, most kids who were into soul came from working class backgrounds. But feelings of working class solidarity had nothing to do with my reasons for getting into soul, consciously or otherwise. Same for my mates. As I've said, exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, quintessentially modernist values. It would never have occurred to us that we ought to feel any kind of special affinity with society's less fortunate members, whether they lived in England or North America. Probably explains why we've never had a Labour MP where I lived, and why Labour representation in the South East, as well as trade union membership, are fairly negligible. Same for me today to be honest. I don't particularly care about the social background of the artists, or those who appreciate their work. I like the music, that's it. I don't even care about the exclusivity part any more. That was a teenage thing.

I prefer the KEB DARGE analysis....'I was scum from the North and I could relate to records made from scum from Detroit'....

Nail on the head. South East England. Full of geezers who waved wads of money HARRY ENFIELD style in the 80s at Northern fans in towns crushed by Thatcher's brutish economics. Selfish, spoilt buggers. Head for head, probably the least socially emphathising area in England. Nothing to be proud of, that...

The fact that the artists came from Black America and the lower social echelons has always mattered to me. Like KEB, growing up on a shitty estate, I related to those American projects and have often pondered in wonderment at the fantastic levels of musical creativity the Black American ghetto's produced. The older I get, the more relevant those factors become, glad I'm blessed with that realisation too. Makes the appreciation of American Soul Music a much deeper and more wonderous experience. Especially when you go out there and see the shit Black Americans are still putting up with in huge social wastelands.

And you never cared about anything like that in SE England?

That's a real shame, mate.

Edited February 28, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Dave Moore]

If anyone dismissed music made by the likes of:

Berry Gordy

H-D-H

Ashford/Simpson

Kenny Gamble/Leon Huff

Relf/Carmicael/Smith

Van McCoy

Carl Davis

etc etc

Because they made a few shekels out of it they're obviously on the wrong 'scene'.

Mike Terry's favourite record he was involved in: Supremes - Love Is Like An Itching

Carl Davis' favourite record he was involved in Jackie Wwilson - Higher and Higher

If it's good enough for these masters of soul music then it's good enough for some oiyk like me!

[Guest Paul]

Wow, Chorleysoul, you're more of a left-wing radical than I am!

It's very true that social and economic circumstances had an emotional effect on soul music (at least the spirit of the music) and it's interesting that so many of the people who fell in love with soul and black music in the UK tended to be poor or working-class - or at least sympathetic to the difficulties of others.

We had different cultures but there was some common ground and an understanding, even if it wasn't a conscious one.

That's why I don't like to see a record described as a "Wigan sound" (or whatever) when it was recorded thousands of miles away by people in Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia or wherever. I feel it's an insult to the creators, although probably unintentional in most cases. Likewise, the very term 'northern soul' seems unfair to soul fans in the south, east and west ...not to mention the USA where the music was made.

The only point I'd like to add, just for balance and the avoidance of doubt, is that of course many wealthy people liked soul music as much as anyone else. Ian Levine, for example, wasn't from a poor family but he was obviously passionately in love with soul music. Not all soul fans came from council estates.

And isn't this a fascinating thread?

[Guest Paul]

Hello Dave,

If any young producers, arrangers or musicians want to study clasic uptown soul music I reckon 'I Get The Sweetest Feeling' would make a perfect blueprint.

People should study the natural feel, spirit, dynamics and nuances of that track. It would be an education in itself.

It seems so simple but is so hard to emulate.

[Guest]

So my theory is that failure is fundamental to the popularity of certain areas within Northern Soul circles. Success is frowned upon whereas failure is applauded. Would this be an accurate statement?

Ian D

[Rob Wigley]

So that makes the northern scene a bunch of speeded paedophiles dancing all night?

I'd add "Deranged" somewhere in that quote and don't mention the drugs!

Rob

[Guest]

I'd add "Deranged" somewhere in that quote and don't mention the drugs!

Rob

" speeded paedophiles dancing all night " ?

As many venues have an age policy , these people would find it a waste of time , blocked or

not ........

Malc Burton

Edited February 28, 2010 by Malc Burton

[Guest Dante]

" speeded paedophiles dancing all night " ?

As many venues have an age policy , these people would find it a waste of time , blocked or

not ........

Malc Burton

I was just making a reference to Rob's statement that records were like a child to the artists. Wasn't implying nothing else, Malc.

[Guest]

I was just making a reference to Rob's statement that records were like a child to the artists. Wasn't implying nothing else, Malc.

No need to apologise Dante : it was my attempt at being humourous .

Malc Burton

[paultp]

I don't think Northern Soul celebrates failure, its just rebellion against the nonsense of the music business.

If you look at the number 1 records of the early 70's just look at the rubbish! There is the occassional good record in there and I must say I liked Slade at the time. The later 70's number ones are even worse!

Much of this was manufactured pap from the music industry of the time that churned out shite for a dull majority, just like Simon Cowell does today. The biggest selling artist globally last year? Susan Boyle !!

Rare soul music is nearly all music that slipped through the net of a cynical music business and so didn't get any exposure at the time of release.

So Northern soul was a scene populated by people who rejected the shite pumped at them by a cynical music industry and embraced good music that had been ignored by an equally cynical music industry.

I have a download copy of "Rage Against The Machine - Killing In The Name" that I will never listen to (it is truly awful) but I have it as I liked the idea of a movement to stop Simon Cowell claiming the Christmas No 1.

Northern Soul isn't a celebration of failure it is just disgust at what the rest of society thinks passes for music.

[Guest]

The success is 30 40 50 years after the music was recorded it is still being played , danced , loved and in some cases cryed to thanks to all those who love this music and the artists are and will always be given god like status long after they have gone the failure is that there music was not givin the credit it was due at the time and many artists made little or no money .

[Guest soulboy]

I don't think Northern Soul celebrates failure, its just rebellion against the nonsense of the music business.

If you look at the number 1 records of the early 70's just look at the rubbish! There is the occassional good record in there and I must say I liked Slade at the time. The later 70's number ones are even worse!

Much of this was manufactured pap from the music industry of the time that churned out shite for a dull majority, just like Simon Cowell does today. The biggest selling artist globally last year? Susan Boyle !!

Rare soul music is nearly all music that slipped through the net of a cynical music business and so didn't get any exposure at the time of release.

So Northern soul was a scene populated by people who rejected the shite pumped at them by a cynical music industry and embraced good music that had been ignored by an equally cynical music industry.

I have a download copy of "Rage Against The Machine - Killing In The Name" that I will never listen to (it is truly awful) but I have it as I liked the idea of a movement to stop Simon Cowell claiming the Christmas No 1.

Northern Soul isn't a celebration of failure it is just disgust at what the rest of society thinks passes for music.

Im not sure about this but dont they all work for sony ? so in down loading it you were just adding money to the coffers of the likes of Cowell ,Im sure this was a crafty plan just to get more people to buy the as you put it ' manufactured pap' that they turn out! The culture that we were brought up in of buying 45's as long gone ,my son who is 16 as never ever even bought a cd let alone a record ,Thank god hes not in to tecno or the dreaded drum and bass but stone rose's and oasis so when i tell him to turn his 'well my' stereo down at least its not susan Boyle or Nobbie williams ,But the thing is he pays nothing for his music some one will give him a cd or he blue tooths on to his phone then plugs that in to my stereo ! sorry if this is slightly of subject ,But I agree with you about Simon Cowell .

[Ady Croasdell]

Sorry if this has been covered but I've been AWOL from SS seeing LCFC stick it up NFFC.

1) Nobody really derides DILY or the Isleys, it's just we've all heard them 1000 times so don't eagerly await the 1001 play.

2) Wigan gets stick because it's the lowest common denominator for so many casual observers who relate everything through it so if you didn't go or went and didn't think it the best nighter ever it's annoying.

Dunno what DJs you're relating to but probably the fact that a few have played the same set for 30 years would irk a few of the scene regulars.

3) I can't think of any promoter who has promoted for all their life. I didn't start till I was 26 and others have dipped in and out; maybe you could give a for instance as with the club.

4) Again I don't think Berry gets much stick. He's probably like Alex Ferguson of Man Utd who rubs people up the wrong way and it gets carried over into the general picture of them. An opposite example could be Gladys Knight, hugely popular but universally loved, as far as I can see, by Northern Soul fans.

Success isn't particularly frowned upon but as it's our passion we like to see that any aspect of it is gone about in the right way with the right attitude.

So I don't really agree with your points squire!

Cheers

Ady

[Ian Dewhirst]

Sorry if this has been covered but I've been AWOL from SS seeing LCFC stick it up NFFC.

1) Nobody really derides DILY or the Isleys, it's just we've all heard them 1000 times so don't eagerly await the 1001 play.

2) Wigan gets stick because it's the lowest common denominator for so many casual observers who relate everything through it so if you didn't go or went and didn't think it the best nighter ever it's annoying.

Dunno what DJs you're relating to but probably the fact that a few have played the same set for 30 years would irk a few of the scene regulars.

3) I can't think of any promoter who has promoted for all their life. I didn't start till I was 26 and others have dipped in and out; maybe you could give a for instance as with the club.

4) Again I don't think Berry gets much stick. He's probably like Alex Ferguson of Man Utd who rubs people up the wrong way and it gets carried over into the general picture of them. An opposite example could be Gladys Knight, hugely popular but universally loved, as far as I can see, by Northern Soul fans.

Success isn't particularly frowned upon but as it's our passion we like to see that any aspect of it is gone about in the right way with the right attitude.

So I don't really agree with your points squire!

Cheers

Ady

'Twas more of a late Friday night muse after seeing a ton of recent threads which appeared to attack a lot of previously successful records, venues, promoters, businessman and almost anything which has been a commercial success at some time or other, so just interested in people's views Ady.

I've certainly seen a ton of comments deriding many aspects of the scene but the ones which seem to come in for the most stick are the ones which achieved a massive degree of commercial success or, as you say, overexposure in some cases with records. I guess it's hard to be objective when you've heard a record a zillion times but sometimes it seems to me that big success can be a minus on this scene, which is perhaps understandable I guess.

Great Lou Johnson CD by the way! A case in point when you think of all the hits other people had on his songs......

Ian D

[Guest]

If anyone dismissed music made by the likes of:

Berry Gordy

H-D-H

Ashford/Simpson

Kenny Gamble/Leon Huff

Relf/Carmicael/Smith

Van McCoy

Carl Davis

etc etc

Because they made a few shekels out of it they're obviously on the wrong 'scene'.

Mike Terry's favourite record he was involved in: Supremes - Love Is Like An Itching

Carl Davis' favourite record he was involved in Jackie Wwilson - Higher and Higher

If it's good enough for these masters of soul music then it's good enough for some oiyk like me!

Total agreement DAVE. Two utterly fantastic records. The backing track to 'love is like an itching' is stupendous!

[Guest]

Wow, Chorleysoul, you're more of a left-wing radical than I am!

It's very true that social and economic circumstances had an emotional effect on soul music (at least the spirit of the music) and it's interesting that so many of the people who fell in love with soul and black music in the UK tended to be poor or working-class - or at least sympathetic to the difficulties of others.

We had different cultures but there was some common ground and an understanding, even if it wasn't a conscious one.

That's why I don't like to see a record described as a "Wigan sound" (or whatever) when it was recorded thousands of miles away by people in Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia or wherever. I feel it's an insult to the creators, although probably unintentional in most cases. Likewise, the very term 'northern soul' seems unfair to soul fans in the south, east and west ...not to mention the USA where the music was made.

The only point I'd like to add, just for balance and the avoidance of doubt, is that of course many wealthy people liked soul music as much as anyone else. Ian Levine, for example, wasn't from a poor family but he was obviously passionately in love with soul music. Not all soul fans came from council estates.

And isn't this a fascinating thread?

I've thought a lot about all this over the years. I think there was a kind of sub-conscious pick up on the fact that the records encapsulated the emotional highs and lows of relationships and I believe working class people, especially of our generation - the 60s kids/teens - instinctively related to that. I think that lies at the core of the relationship between what we know as 'Northern Soul' and working class people in Modern Britain.

To be honest, what else was there for working class people in the 50s and 60s to get excited about? Outside of Girlfriends, Boyfriends, love, passion....(Oh yes, Football, so no surprise so many of us of that generation are so passionately in love with the game as well).

That was the centre of most people's lives outside of dreary jobs and a pretty well mapped out social channel. 60s Soul records hit in on those aspects and encased them in wonderfully melodic and catchy popular music frameworks. The best pop music ever. The music lifted us out of boring normality and took you to emotional heights that we did not encounter in any other experience. I remember TIM ASHIBENDE saying to me once 'Everybody goes on about The Beatles being songwriting genius's but they couldn't touch Holland-Dozier-Holland' and I think TIM was right.

People like IAN LEVINE were also touched by all that, it was certainly not 'exclusive' to us oiks but at the end of the day the deep bedrock of love and support for American Soul was built amongst the working class and people like IAN and others like him would probably have never mixed so closely with so many of us was it not for his/their love of Soul. Which, socially, is a good thing too.

Yeah, great topic.

Edited March 1, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

I've thought a lot about all this over the years. I think there was a kind of sub-conscious pick up on the fact that the records encapsulated the emotional highs and lows of relationships and I believe working class people, especially of our generation - the 60s kids/teens - instinctively related to that. I think that lies at the core of the relationship between what we know as 'Northern Soul' and working class people in Modern Britain.

To be honest, what else was there for working class people in the 50s and 60s to get excited about? Outside of Girlfriends, Boyfriends, love, passion....(Oh yes, Football, so no surprise so many of us of that generation are so passionately in love with the game as well).

That was the centre of most people's lives outside of dreary jobs and a pretty well mapped out social framework. 60s Soul records hit in on those aspects and encased them in wonderfully melodic and catchy popular music frameworks. The best pop music ever. The music lifted us out of boring normality and took you to emotional heights that we did not encounter in any other experience. I remember TIM ASHIBENDE saying to me once 'Everybody goes on about The Beatles being songwriting genius's but they couldn't touch Holland-Dozier-Holland' and I think TIM was right.

People like IAN LEVINE were also touched by all that, it was certainly not 'exclusive' to us oiks but at the end of the day the deep bedrock of love and support for American Soul was built amongst the working class and people like IAN and others like him would probably have never mixed so closely with so many of us was it not for his/their love of Soul. Which, socially, is a good thing too.

Yeah, great topic.

[/quote

Excellent constructive an thoughtful reply .

Malc Burton

[Guest]

I've thought a lot about all this over the years. I think there was a kind of sub-conscious pick up on the fact that the records encapsulated the emotional highs and lows of relationships and I believe working class people, especially of our generation - the 60s kids/teens - instinctively related to that. I think that lies at the core of the relationship between what we know as 'Northern Soul' and working class people in Modern Britain.

To be honest, what else was there for working class people in the 50s and 60s to get excited about? Outside of Girlfriends, Boyfriends, love, passion....(Oh yes, Football, so no surprise so many of us of that generation are so passionately in love with the game as well).

That was the centre of most people's lives outside of dreary jobs and a pretty well mapped out social framework. 60s Soul records hit in on those aspects and encased them in wonderfully melodic and catchy popular music frameworks. The best pop music ever. The music lifted us out of boring normality and took you to emotional heights that we did not encounter in any other experience. I remember TIM ASHIBENDE saying to me once 'Everybody goes on about The Beatles being songwriting genius's but they couldn't touch Holland-Dozier-Holland' and I think TIM was right.

People like IAN LEVINE were also touched by all that, it was certainly not 'exclusive' to us oiks but at the end of the day the deep bedrock of love and support for American Soul was built amongst the working class and people like IAN and others like him would probably have never mixed so closely with so many of us was it not for his/their love of Soul. Which, socially, is a good thing too.

Yeah, great topic.

[/quote

---------------------------------------------------

Excellent constructive and thoughtful reply .

Malc Burton

Edited March 1, 2010 by Malc Burton

[Little-stevie]

A whole heap of recent threads on S.S. have lead me to believe that it's currently much more fashionable to ridicule success of any sort and applaud failure.

Why is that?

Some recent instances could include the following examples:-

1) Take such phenomenonally commercially successful Northern Soul records such as "This Old Heart Of Mine" - The Isley Brothers or even the completely reviled "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)" - Frank Wilson. Both records are absolute pinnacles of everything a Northern Soul record should be, yet because the Isley Brothers was eventually a UK Top 10 hit and because Frank Wilson has become something of a cliche on the scene, both records are scorned and treated with disrespect compared to a no-hoper recorded in a shed in Carolina which always had little or no chance of any success.

2) Previously phenomenally successful Northern Soul venues such as, for the sake of arguement, Wigan Casino, which arguably did more to spread the popularity of Northern Soul then any other venue ever, are derided because of their success and the influence they had on the scene at the time. Likewise certain DJ's from certain eras.

3) Certain promoters who have had a long time career (in some cases all their lives) being involved in Northern Soul are derided for catering to large audiences, being commercially successful and essentially making a success of their efforts.

4) Even Berry Gordy, arguably the most influential person in Northern Soul history, is looked upon with suspicion because he was a successful businessman first and foremost and thus not so fashionable when it comes to icons of the scene.

The consistant thread which comes out of all this, is that it would appear that anyone who has any kind of commercial success within Northern Soul circles is treated with suspicion or dread.

Which is weird. Why on earth would anyone decry success in a given field?

So my theory is that failure is fundamental to the popularity of certain areas within Northern Soul circles. Success is frowned upon whereas failure is applauded. Would this be an accurate statement?

Ian D

Storm in a tea cup Ian...

OVER 10,000 members and a few comments on any of the above don't mean too much really...

With regards to sucess, i have no problem with that, i do have a problem with some people though in the way they get to where they wanna be and who they shit on to get there... Maybe i am an idealist but would like to think that success can come about from hard work but retaining the respect of people also, some have the success but will never get the respect from many because of the way they go about business....

[Guest]

Sorry if this has been covered but I've been AWOL from SS seeing LCFC stick it up NFFC.

Cheers

Ady

See what I mean about our passions for Soul and football!

[Guest]

Storm in a tea cup Ian...

OVER 10,000 members and a few comments on any of the above don't mean too much really...

With regards to sucess, i have no problem with that, i do have a problem with some people though in the way they get to where they wanna be and who they shit on to get there... Maybe i am an idealist but would like to think that success can come about from hard work but retaining the respect of people also, some have the success but will never get the respect from many because of the way they go about business....

Nothing wrong with that type of ideaology, Steve. Pity everybody did not subscribe to the same principles.

To examine the subject from a slightly different angle, I could not help noticing the advert at the bottom of this page for a 'MOTOWN TRIBUTE' Weekend featuring 'The Four Tops' and 'The Supremes'.

Whilst personally wishing every good record ever played on our scene had originally been seen successful for the artists and writers, this type of event throws up certain questions.

Perhaps when it gets to this type of thing, the level of exploitation regarding commercially 'successful' acts or recorded material does become distasteful/crass. I know when I see these type of things advertised, I am glad I am part of something a little more dedicated.

I doubt very much whether there will be performance royalties winging their way to Messrs H-D-H following this weekend's show's and the countless others in Holiday Camps all over Europe this summer.

Having said that, an offshoot is possible further CD sales of 'Greatest Hits' packages after people have been to the shows and returned home, so perhaps there is a 'qualifiable' justification - including relevant royalty payments - even for these type of events?

Edited March 1, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Steve G]

I prefer the KEB DARGE analysis....'I was scum from the North and I could relate to records made from scum from Detroit'....

Nail on the head. South East England. Full of geezers who waved wads of money HARRY ENFIELD style in the 80s at Northern fans in towns crushed by Thatcher's brutish economics. Selfish, spoilt buggers. Head for head, probably the least socially emphathising area in England. Nothing to be proud of, that...

The fact that the artists came from Black America and the lower social echelons has always mattered to me. Like KEB, growing up on a shitty estate, I related to those American projects and have often pondered in wonderment at the fantastic levels of musical creativity the Black American ghetto's produced. The older I get, the more relevant those factors become, glad I'm blessed with that realisation too. Makes the appreciation of American Soul Music a much deeper and more wonderous experience. Especially when you go out there and see the shit Black Americans are still putting up with in huge social wastelands.

And you never cared about anything like that in SE England?

That's a real shame, mate.

So tongue in cheek, and a good wind up......but just in case anyone takes this load of old rubbish seriously........and knowing how the internet is so widely used for "research" these days......I wouldn't want the NS history to be totally rewritten off of the back of the above.......

The south has had plenty of people into soul music, and in the 60s and 70s too. For what it is worth outposts from all over the UK 'popped' up to Wigan and as for Yate, last time I looked it would broadly be classed as 'the south' and supported a highly succesfully fortnightly allnighter for years.

Back in those days before wannabe intellectuals tried to categorise everything (apart from Tony Cummings who was at it even then with his Black Music analyses ) it was fair to say the most people got into northern soul because it was away from the mainstream. It was not what the BBC was playing at us, it was underground, non conformist and yet had a sense of togetherness, and you had to seek it out to find it. "Class" wasn't really a major factor - the point was on the dancefloor the background of the person next to you didn't matter. In fact in the SE reggae probably had as big a following as soul amongst the working class council estates where I lived, and amongst the soul fraternity, soul also meant things like James Brown, Ohio Players, Whispers etc. more than it ever meant Frank Wilson. Also popular on the council estates in the SE were Slade, Quo, Mud, Alvin Stardust; yes Chorleysoul all favourites amongst the "working class" girls I used to date.

So I think at best where you live or how you were brought up has only a slight bearing, if any, on you getting into soul music. Though it's very concvenient for us to all tag ourselves as repressed working class kids who related to Al Williams "I am nothing", the more plausible reason was because at the time it was a fashionable underground scene, with smart clothes, obscure music, and sense of belonging.

As for Ian's question, yup we are always celebrating success, just look at the Lifeline events lookback thread.

Where we tend to moan is when we hear people harping on endlessly about yesterday's successes, like some old semi senile grandparent reliving past glories of a generation ago - it's like a stuck record.

[Guest becchio]

Agreed there, most kids who were into soul came from working class backgrounds. But feelings of working class solidarity had nothing to do with my reasons for getting into soul, consciously or otherwise. Same for my mates. As I've said, exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, quintessentially modernist values. It would never have occurred to us that we ought to feel any kind of special affinity with society's less fortunate members, whether they lived in England or North America. Probably explains why we've never had a Labour MP where I lived, and why Labour representation in the South East, as well as trade union membership, are fairly negligible. Same for me today to be honest. I don't particularly care about the social background of the artists, or those who appreciate their work. I like the music, that's it. I don't even care about the exclusivity part any more. That was a teenage thing.

without meaning to sound devisive (again) , i think there is a bit of a north/south difference and i think it still affects the "scene"(i hate that word) to this day .

in the north of england and other surrounding areas it was NOT MAINLY ABOUT any of the things iv highlighted above in your post . i think thats more a southern mod type perspective that youv hinted at .

northern soul (in the north !) welcomed all , it was widespread and it was NOT underground and i dont think it ever thought of itself as being "exclusive" or "underground" up here at all . it was about working class people (mostly) working hard all week and then going out dancing in (usually) dancehalls to , in my opinion, the best dance music in the world.

i agree with you though in that i dont think it was about "working class solidarity" or identifying with the artists" (though in some ways personally i did/do) mostly because there was no need to have working class solidarity in a place where the vast majority of the people where working class anyway , unlike the south and south east im guessing . we had no one to unite against because we where all (mostly) the same

btw please dont think im having a go at southerners/the south here because im not and i do love london btw, i really do . its just i think there are big differences in our upbringings/areas ect and its the elephant in the room that we all ignore in these types of threads .

to sum it up i think the souths "rare" soul scene is more about fashion , style , exclusivity , the mod thingy , record collecting and one up manship and that the norths scene er MOSTLY isnt , its still more of a dance scene up here MORE than anything else , i think.

please understand me , im not trying to be a troll , cause trouble or be devisive its just an observation . im not saying anyones "thing" is better than anyone elses, im just saying its different . and maybe thats PARTLY why people say/think the scene is split . maybe its partly a geographical and social difference that is dividing us

or maybe our perceptions of each other are totally wrong ! . mine included because , unlike id expected, i have to say that the 100 club anniversary allnighter was far far better than (at that time) most alnighters i was attending in the north !

oh god im in trouble from both sides now , looool

Edited March 1, 2010 by becchio

[Ady Croasdell]

Agree with the Supremes 'Itching' I used to play it a lot in the 80s, but how do you dance to 'Higher & Higher' without falling over?

[Guest becchio]

So tongue in cheek, and a good wind up......but just in case anyone takes this load of old rubbish seriously........and knowing how the internet is so widely used for "research" these days......I wouldn't want the NS history to be totally rewritten off of the back of the above.......

The south has had plenty of people into soul music, and in the 60s and 70s too. For what it is worth outposts from all over the UK 'popped' up to Wigan and as for Yate, last time I looked it would broadly be classed as 'the south' and supported a highly succesfully fortnightly allnighter for years.

Back in those days before wannabe intellectuals tried to categorise everything (apart from Tony Cummings who was at it even then with his Black Music analyses ) it was fair to say the most people got into northern soul because it was away from the mainstream. It was not what the BBC was playing at us, it was underground, non conformist and yet had a sense of togetherness, and you had to seek it out to find it. "Class" wasn't really a major factor - the point was on the dancefloor the background of the person next to you didn't matter. In fact in the SE reggae probably had as big a following as soul amongst the working class council estates where I lived, and amongst the soul fraternity, soul also meant things like James Brown, Ohio Players, Whispers etc. more than it ever meant Frank Wilson. Also popular on the council estates in the SE were Slade, Quo, Mud, Alvin Stardust; yes Chorleysoul all favourites amongst the "working class" girls I used to date.

So I think at best where you live or how you were brought up has only a slight bearing, if any, on you getting into soul music. Though it's very concvenient for us to all tag ourselves as repressed working class kids who related to Al Williams "I am nothing", the more plausible reason was because at the time it was a fashionable underground scene, with smart clothes, obscure music, and sense of belonging.

As for Ian's question, yup we are always celebrating success, just look at the Lifeline events lookback thread.

Where we tend to moan is when we hear people harping on endlessly about yesterday's successes, like some old semi senile grandparent reliving past glories of a generation ago - it's like a stuck record.

but like iv said in the above post , thats the difference !!!

in the north it WASNT UNDERGROUND . many of us didnt get into "it" through "choice" because we didnt have a choice ! it was flippin mandatory in certain areas if you liked dancing that that was what you got into . if you liked rock music then you got into zep or sabbath . that was the only choice you could make . but some of us didnt have a choice , we coudnt have avoided it even if we'd wanted to. most people KNEW they would end up at wigan ect because that was what we were brought up to be expected to do .

it wasnt UNDERGROUND here in the north at that time , far from it

Edited March 1, 2010 by becchio

[Guest becchio]

Agree with the Supremes 'Itching' I used to play it a lot in the 80s, but how do you dance to 'Higher & Higher' without falling over?

you have to be in a rough arse pub preferably in the north of england (halifax is good) with a load of old soulies egging you on and be completely p***ed out of your head . then its easy and actually its fun ! then you fall over

Edited March 1, 2010 by becchio

[Ady Croasdell]

but like iv said in the above post , thats the difference !!!

in the north it WASNT UNDERGROUND . many of us didnt get into "it" through "choice" because we didnt have a choice ! it was flippin mandatory in certain areas if you liked dancing that that was what you got into . if you liked rock music then you got into zep or sabbath . that was the choice you could make . but some of us didnt have a choice , we coudnt have avoided it even if we'd wanted to. most people KNEW they would end up at wigan ect because that was what we were brought up to be expected to do .

it wasnt UNDERGROUND here in the north at that time , far from it

It was underground in 69 up North when I got into it, same time as the Wheel, only a few mod/skin gangs seemed to know about it, thousands didn't. Not until Dave Godin described it did it get any kind of acknowledgement.

[Guest becchio]

It was underground in 69 up North when I got into it, same time as the Wheel, only a few mod/skin gangs seemed to know about it, thousands didn't. Not until Dave Godin described it did it get any kind of acknowledgement.

well yes perhaps , my uncle went to the wheel and he was a bit moddish in dress but i think it was mainly the music and dancing for him.

i dont think the mod thing had the same impact up here , we didnt have the "swinging 60s" the way london did . it was still "grim" like the 50s had been , according to what iv heard from the older people round here . less discoteque and more dancehall i suppose

iv been talking about "northern soul " in the 70s early 80s as i dont really remember the 60s , so i cant say

Edited March 1, 2010 by becchio

[Guest]

So tongue in cheek, and a good wind up......but just in case anyone takes this load of old rubbish seriously........and knowing how the internet is so widely used for "research" these days......I wouldn't want the NS history to be totally rewritten off of the back of the above.......

The south has had plenty of people into soul music, and in the 60s and 70s too. For what it is worth outposts from all over the UK 'popped' up to Wigan and as for Yate, last time I looked it would broadly be classed as 'the south' and supported a highly succesfully fortnightly allnighter for years.

Back in those days before wannabe intellectuals tried to categorise everything (apart from Tony Cummings who was at it even then with his Black Music analyses ) it was fair to say the most people got into northern soul because it was away from the mainstream. It was not what the BBC was playing at us, it was underground, non conformist and yet had a sense of togetherness, and you had to seek it out to find it. "Class" wasn't really a major factor - the point was on the dancefloor the background of the person next to you didn't matter. In fact in the SE reggae probably had as big a following as soul amongst the working class council estates where I lived, and amongst the soul fraternity, soul also meant things like James Brown, Ohio Players, Whispers etc. more than it ever meant Frank Wilson. Also popular on the council estates in the SE were Slade, Quo, Mud, Alvin Stardust; yes Chorleysoul all favourites amongst the "working class" girls I used to date.

So I think at best where you live or how you were brought up has only a slight bearing, if any, on you getting into soul music. Though it's very concvenient for us to all tag ourselves as repressed working class kids who related to Al Williams "I am nothing", the more plausible reason was because at the time it was a fashionable underground scene, with smart clothes, obscure music, and sense of belonging.

As for Ian's question, yup we are always celebrating success, just look at the Lifeline events lookback thread.

Where we tend to moan is when we hear people harping on endlessly about yesterday's successes, like some old semi senile grandparent reliving past glories of a generation ago - it's like a stuck record.

Just for the record, I come from Southampton mate and went to Wigan and Yate as did quite a few people from that area. A number of us still go to do's today, so don't think I am having a pop at the south in general because I am not. But there is a big difference between attitudes in Hampshire, Dorset, Gloucestershire etc than from those epitomised by WEEKEND WARRIOR in his contribution regarding SE England. It was him who raised the political essence (quite rightly), this being that that part of the country has poor Trade Union affiliation history and a distinct lack of support for Labour Politicians traditionally over the years. I was being tongue in cheek with the 'note waving' but in a serious discussion, I would still maintain - as I believe he would - that the area differs considerably in it's social attitudes/social history to many areas where Northern Soul originally caught on. Southampton for instance is a Port city and has a long history of active Trade Union membership and support and equally still holds 2 Labour MP's to this day. It is a very different social environment to places like Camberley, Guildford etc.

As regards the music, we are talking on two levels here. First there is the question, why were so many attracted to the 'scene' and your comments regarding mainstream, elitism etc are fair enough but people only attracted by those elements alone will not give lifelong dedication. The bigger question is why were so many working class kids and teenagers bowled over MUSICALLY by Motown and Soul then by natural progression 'Northern' Soul in the first place. Perhaps you need to read my later posting to understand what I mean fully by all that.

If you do not, then you will not understand where I am coming from on this stuff.

To be honest, it is you talking rubbish on the class aspect. I know that when I first started going to Soul do's - either in Commercial Mecca Dance Halls or Northern Soul nights, it was blatantly obvious that Soul was a form of music which attracted a very working class orientated following, I cannot ever recall hearing that many Public Schoolboy accents over the years especially during the 70s! The diffence with Northern Soul was that you had to travel for it and you ended up with MAINLY loads of other Working class teenagers from all over the country, not just your local environment. That was one of the things which made it special and why so many friendships have lasted over the years. As for all the stuff about Reggae and Slade, yeah of course I recall all that too mate, but you don't get too many of the type of people you are talking about still going to Reggae Weekenders or All-Nighters nowadays do you? As for the Glam Rock scene, that is not exactly thick on the ground with events now either is it?

Edited March 1, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest becchio]

So tongue in cheek, and a good wind up......but just in case anyone takes this load of old rubbish seriously........and knowing how the internet is so widely used for "research" these days......I wouldn't want the NS history to be totally rewritten off of the back of the above.......

The south has had plenty of people into soul music, and in the 60s and 70s too. For what it is worth outposts from all over the UK 'popped' up to Wigan and as for Yate, last time I looked it would broadly be classed as 'the south' and supported a highly succesfully fortnightly allnighter for years.

Back in those days before wannabe intellectuals tried to categorise everything (apart from Tony Cummings who was at it even then with his Black Music analyses ) it was fair to say the most people got into northern soul because it was away from the mainstream. It was not what the BBC was playing at us, it was underground, non conformist and yet had a sense of togetherness, and you had to seek it out to find it. "Class" wasn't really a major factor - the point was on the dancefloor the background of the person next to you didn't matter. In fact in the SE reggae probably had as big a following as soul amongst the working class council estates where I lived, and amongst the soul fraternity, soul also meant things like James Brown, Ohio Players, Whispers etc. more than it ever meant Frank Wilson. Also popular on the council estates in the SE were Slade, Quo, Mud, Alvin Stardust; yes Chorleysoul all favourites amongst the "working class" girls I used to date.

So I think at best where you live or how you were brought up has only a slight bearing, if any, on you getting into soul music. Though it's very concvenient for us to all tag ourselves as repressed working class kids who related to Al Williams "I am nothing", the more plausible reason was because at the time it was a fashionable underground scene, with smart clothes, obscure music, and sense of belonging.

As for Ian's question, yup we are always celebrating success, just look at the Lifeline events lookback thread.

Where we tend to moan is when we hear people harping on endlessly about yesterday's successes, like some old semi senile grandparent reliving past glories of a generation ago - it's like a stuck record.

no no no .im sorry but no

it WAS mainstream ( in the 70s) , it was played eveywhere when i was growing up (west yorks) , cafes , fairgrounds, school discos, youth clubs , pubs , you didnt "seek it out " it was eveywhere . YOU COUDNT AVOID THE BLASTED THING lol

[Steve G]

no no no .im sorry but no

it WAS mainstream ( in the 70s) , it was played eveywhere when i was growing up (west yorks) , cafes , fairgrounds, school discos, youth clubs , pubs , you didnt "seek it out " it was eveywhere . YOU COUDNT AVOID THE BLASTED THING lol

Just don't buy that> Wigan membership 100,000 and everyone into the scene went there over 8 years + tens of thousands of "tourists" as well. Maybe in 75 it went overground for a few weeks when Footsee and all that was in the charts and it crossed over, but for the rest of the time NS has been an underground pursuit, far from the madding crowd. Yes do agree some played in youth clubs as well.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Steve G

[Guest Paul]

So tongue in cheek, and a good wind up......but just in case anyone takes this load of old rubbish seriously........and knowing how the internet is so widely used for "research" these days......I wouldn't want the NS history to be totally rewritten off of the back of the above.......

The south has had plenty of people into soul music, and in the 60s and 70s too. For what it is worth outposts from all over the UK 'popped' up to Wigan and as for Yate, last time I looked it would broadly be classed as 'the south' and supported a highly succesfully fortnightly allnighter for years.

Back in those days before wannabe intellectuals tried to categorise everything (apart from Tony Cummings who was at it even then with his Black Music analyses ) it was fair to say the most people got into northern soul because it was away from the mainstream. It was not what the BBC was playing at us, it was underground, non conformist and yet had a sense of togetherness, and you had to seek it out to find it. "Class" wasn't really a major factor - the point was on the dancefloor the background of the person next to you didn't matter. In fact in the SE reggae probably had as big a following as soul amongst the working class council estates where I lived, and amongst the soul fraternity, soul also meant things like James Brown, Ohio Players, Whispers etc. more than it ever meant Frank Wilson. Also popular on the council estates in the SE were Slade, Quo, Mud, Alvin Stardust; yes Chorleysoul all favourites amongst the "working class" girls I used to date.

So I think at best where you live or how you were brought up has only a slight bearing, if any, on you getting into soul music. Though it's very concvenient for us to all tag ourselves as repressed working class kids who related to Al Williams "I am nothing", the more plausible reason was because at the time it was a fashionable underground scene, with smart clothes, obscure music, and sense of belonging.

As for Ian's question, yup we are always celebrating success, just look at the Lifeline events lookback thread.

Where we tend to moan is when we hear people harping on endlessly about yesterday's successes, like some old semi senile grandparent reliving past glories of a generation ago - it's like a stuck record.

To be fair, Steve, you can't say someone's views are rubbish just because they don't match your views or experiences. We all have different views, mostly influenced by our different experiences - such as when we got into soul music and where we grew up.

For some reason, the town I grew up in (Newton Aycliffe in County Durham) had a huge soul following on the early 1970s so there was nothing "different" or "underground" about club soul music (or what became known as 'northern soul') for me when I was a teenager. If anything it was common, not exclusive ...you couldn't hear anything else at the time.

Yet in other nearby towns, for some strange reason, it was a very different story.

So I was exposed to imports and obscurities when I was still at school, alongside the usual Motown stuff and current chart hits by Freda Payne, Donnie Elbert, Millie Jackson, Chairmen Of The Board etc. It all sounded pretty much the same to me at the time.

It was the music that I fell in love with. It had nothing to do with being different, underground, exclusive or whatever.

I accept that others have had different experiences but that's how it was for me. It's also a fact that it was very much a white working-class thing, probably because it was a white working-class town. I'm just pointing out the facts, not trying to explain the reasons.

It may be that where you grew up there were less people into 'northern soul' but that just goes to show how time and place had such a big effect on us all.

Finally, without wanting to sound niaeve, I also felt that I related quite naturally to the feelings and the spirit of the music (for whatever reason) and that certainly drew me deeper into the music and the culture behind it.

But, like I said elsewhere, the fact that we all like the same music means that we have something in common.

[Guest Paul]

no no no .im sorry but no

it WAS mainstream ( in the 70s) , it was played eveywhere when i was growing up (west yorks) , cafes , fairgrounds, school discos, youth clubs , pubs , you didnt "seek it out " it was eveywhere . YOU COUDNT AVOID THE BLASTED THING lol

That's exactly how it was for me.

[Guest]

Agree with the Supremes 'Itching' I used to play it a lot in the 80s, but how do you dance to 'Higher & Higher' without falling over?

Get on the bassline groove, not the beat

[Guest isis]

Moot point really, the great thing about the NS scene is the financial or chart success of a record is taken out of the equation. HDH made bucket loads of cash, but are still mightily revered, yet the Holland Bros are the first to admit for them it was all about the money, that shouldn't make their contribution any less valid . Then you look at the likes of Raynoma Singleton or Fred Bridges (my hero) who made bugger all, but I look at them all with the same respect and admiration. I will dance with equal vigour and joy to a Motown chart hit as to a Shrine rarity...as they say...it's whats in the groove that counts.

Edited March 1, 2010 by isis

[Steve G]

It was the music that I fell in love with. It had nothing to do with being different, underground, exclusive or whatever.

I accept that others have had different experiences but that's how it was for me. It's also a fact that it was very much a white working-class thing, probably because it was a white working-class town. I'm just pointing out the facts, not trying to explain the reasons.

Finally, without wanting to sound niaeve, I also felt that I related quite naturally to the feelings and the spirit of the music (for whatever reason) and that certainly drew me deeper into the music

Fair enough Paul, but 95% of the songs dealt with relationships rather than living in a sh*t hole of an estate didn't they. Soul did have a big following in the early 70's but it was really northern that I was talking about; to us that was always much more underground. I wasn't really thinking of the Freda Paynes etc. which were played on radio, was thinking more about the Eddie Fosters / Yvonne Bakers - which were never in the mainstream.

Reminds me of a funny story Sam told me about his residency in Wrexham in the 70s. 100% Motown, soul, and dare I say it a bit of northern (Donnie Elbert style I am sure ). Anyway Peter Powell turns up as part of the R1 roadshow and says to Sam "I am goig to start of with some Quo". Sam tells him "No you're not, you'll get lynched if you play anything like that here". Thereafter Sam spent the entire time Powell was on pulling the tunes out for Powell to play.

[Guest]

To be fair, Steve, you can't say someone's views are rubbish just because they don't match your views or experiences. We all have different views, mostly influenced by our different experiences - such as when we got into soul music and where we grew up.

So I was exposed to imports and obscurities when I was still at school, alongside the usual Motown stuff and current chart hits by Freda Payne, Donnie Elbert, Millie Jackson, Chairmen Of The Board etc. It all sounded pretty much the same to me at the time.

It was the music that I fell in love with. It had nothing to do with being different, underground, exclusive or whatever.

I accept that others have had different experiences but that's how it was for me. It's also a fact that it was very much a white working-class thing, probably because it was a white working-class town. I'm just pointing out the facts, not trying to explain the reasons.

It may be that where you grew up there were less people into 'northern soul' but that just goes to show how time and place had such a big effect on us all.

Finally, without wanting to sound niaeve, I also felt that I related quite naturally to the feelings and the spirit of the music (for whatever reason) and that certainly drew me deeper into the music and the culture behind it.

Very definetly PAUL, about WHERE, WHEN and importantly HOW we grew up.

In Southampton at the end of the 60s we went to Saturday morning Disco Sessions at the big Southampton Top Rank. The big records which I loved were The Elgins, Freda Payne, Chairmen of the board, Johnny Johnson, The Tams, The Isley Bothers and all those 69-71 Motown gems and reissues, this stuff played alongside a few pop tunes and the Trojan Reggae/ska stuff. That was when I fell in love with the sound I later came to recognise as 'Northern Soul' and yes, I too felt quite a strong emotional bond with that music immediately. At lunchtime, people would walk down through the town to the Royal Pier Mecca Ballroom and the same type of sounds would be played there for the afternoon disco session. These were the halycon suedehead days, the best fashions ever in my view.

There were black and white kids at these sessions, given the social make up of the city but it was overwhelmingly working class and we are talking 300-500 kids every week. Then we graduated to Evenings at the same venues and in tandem with baggy trousers, along came Philly and the 70s Soul sound which was adopted as easily and happily as the original Motown style stompers of a few years previous. Huge Discos full of hundreds of working class teenagers all grooving to the music of Black America....Definetly mainstream in fact, very much so. It was the middle class kids in Southampton who were viewed as 'weirdos' with their badges and T-Shirts bearing the names of Progressive bands that were never in the Pop charts and who nobody I knew had ever heard of....As such when I had my first visits to 'Northern Soul' venues, the musical transition was seamless as it was for a number of my mates and from my first encounters the love affair grew and grew...

It was certainly not very long before the words 'Northern Soul' entered the national consciousness, the Casino thing exploded (or imploded depending on your viewpoint) and the 'scene' became the focus of frenzied media examination/exploitation for a while.

The thing is, people can go on all day about the 'underground' nature of things, i.e venues, niters, drugs, the specific 'scene' aspects, but thousands of us actually began our love affair with the music itself long before we heard the term 'Northern Soul' and as such were perfectly primed to embrace that scene once exposed to it. And the route we came by was mainstream. We'd fell in love with the records that had actually been 'hits'. The one's all the other Northern Soul artists and Producers were trying to eagerly and desperately emulate, so the social and cultural question of overground/underground or putting it another way - success/failure - is actually a lot more complicated than it initially appears.

Personally I was always aware that this music was Black America's great gift to us. I was avidly reading DAVE GODIN at school whilst going to those early Top Rank Disco's and his words inspired me from the start. Having a Trade Union Steward as a Dad helped further, as he attempted to educate me about workers rights, the civil rights struggle and other associated themes.

I remember back in 78/9 when JAMES COIT'S 'Black Power' was huge, it was about two years after I'd first read GEORGE JACKSON'S seminal US Prison autobiography 'Soledad Brother', (incidentally, whilst serving a sentence in Detention Centre in Gloucester!) and I made the lyrical connection with that record, Northern Soul and the struggle in Black America quite easily, so the sarcastic comments about 'I am nothing' are actually completely misplaced, both conceptually and factually. If you were into MARVIN GAYE'S 'Whats going on' album seriously, surely you could not fail to see the connection between Northern Soul and the social/civic/economical struggle of Black Americans. But now I am falling into the same trap - supposing everybody's experience was the same as mine....

Edited March 1, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

Moot point really, the great thing about the NS scene is the financial or chart success of a record is taken out of the equation. HDH made bucket loads of cash, but are still mightily revered, yet the Holland Bros are the first to admit for them it was all about the money, that shouldn't make their contribution any less valid . Then you look at the likes of Raynoma Singleton or Fred Bridges (my hero) who made bugger all, but I look at them all with the same respect and admiration. I will dance with equal vigour and joy to a Motown chart hit as to a Shrine rarity...as they say...it's whats in the groove that counts.

A million miles away from being a mute point mate, in fact it could not be more relevant and lucid.

That is a very interesting post because it encapsulates what IAN D was talking about beautifully....perfectly in fact.

On the one hand you state that 'The Holland Bros are the first to admit for them, it was all about the money'. (I have a sneaking suspicion they might just have got a little creative satsifaction at the same time, by the way, just my view.)

But then you say FRED BRIDGES - who, in your words - 'made bugger all' is your personal HERO.

No matter how earnestly you say you'd dance to either option with equal vigour, it is impossible to disguise the subtle inference that your HERO'S work - in your view, may be musically superior. (An opinion, I quickly state, you have every right to hold).

I apologise if I am wrong but it is a fantastic crystalisation of the original point.

Edited March 1, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Little-stevie]

some really good posts on the social history around the uk but i do think its swerving from the question posted at the start..

Maybe a new topic regarding the social history,i guess many have a have some different take on that....

Does Northern soul celebrate failure more than success???

[Guest isis]

A million miles away from being a mute point mate, in fact it could not be more relevant and lucid.

That is a very interesting post because it encapsulates what IAN D was talking about beautifully....perfectly in fact.

On the one hand you state that 'The Holland Bros are the first to admit for them, it was all about the money'. (I have a sneaking suspicion they might just have got a little creative satsifaction at the same time, by the way, just my view.)

But then you say FRED BRIDGES - who, in your words - 'made bugger all' is your personal HERO.

No matter how earnestly you say you'd dance to either option with equal vigour, it is impossible to disguise the subtle inference that your HERO'S work - in your view, may be musically superior. (An opinion, I quickly state, you have every right to hold).

I apologise if I am wrong but it is a fantastic crystalisation of the original point.

Thats the point, Fred Bridges because his songwriting, to me , is the best...not because he made less money and is therefore more "deserving". If his and HDH's positions were reversed, I'd still feel the same, or if HDH had written "A Dream"...then HDH would be my top of the pops. As I said...all equally valid.

Edited March 1, 2010 by isis

[Guest]

some really good posts on the social history around the uk but i do think its swerving from the question posted at the start..

Maybe a new topic regarding the social history,i guess many have a have some different take on that....

Does Northern soul celebrate failure more than success???

Like I just explained Steve - it depends where you start. A lot of us came to love the music by initially celebrating it's success. I.E via the titles that were 'Soul' records that became Pop hits in the late 60s/early 70s. Then when we realised there were thousands of unknown records we got into that as 'Northern Soul' and likewise celebrated the commercial 'failures.'

But to me, the great ISLEYS, FOUR TOPS, ARETHA FRANKLIN, MARTHA REEVES, MARVIN GAYE etc, etc hits are all as important as the rarer more esoteric stuff. Those records were/are 'the golden gateway' you could say, so I think in all honesty, 'Northern Soul' as a collective entity celebrates both success and failure.

Both. lol

Edited March 1, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest mickeyb]

but like iv said in the above post , thats the difference !!!

in the north it WASNT UNDERGROUND . many of us didnt get into "it" through "choice" because we didnt have a choice ! it was flippin mandatory in certain areas if you liked dancing that that was what you got into . if you liked rock music then you got into zep or sabbath . that was the only choice you could make . but some of us didnt have a choice , we coudnt have avoided it even if we'd wanted to. most people KNEW they would end up at wigan ect because that was what we were brought up to be expected to do .

it wasnt UNDERGROUND here in the north at that time , far from it

How come only about 2 or 3 thousand people attended allnighters every week (less than that if Cleethorpes or Sams wasn't on) if it was mandatory in the North? (including all of us Southerners). Don't want a row, just seems like an underground scene to me

[Little-stevie]

How come only about 2 or 3 thousand people attended allnighters every week (less than that if Cleethorpes or Sams wasn't on) if it was mandatory in the North? (including all of us Southerners). Don't want a row, just seems like an underground scene to me

I think it was more the term northern soul was not underground, very much a common word and many knew something about it.. Northern on the play list at our youth club and then the early teenage discos for 14/ 17 year olds.... Lots of my mates would dance along but never took it any further in the future... Maybe only a few thousand full timers but many many many more who dipped a toe in now and again...

Many mates would always want to hear the classics but some of us had moved on to more underground sounds that the disco did not play...

[Ian Dewhirst]

Like I just explained Steve - it depends where you start. A lot of us came to love the music by initially celebrating it's success. I.E via the titles that were 'Soul' records that became Pop hits in the late 60s/early 70s. Then when we realised there were thousands of unknown records we got into that as 'Northern Soul' and likewise celebrated the commercial 'failures.'

But to me, the great ISLEYS, FOUR TOPS, ARETHA FRANKLIN, MARTHA REEVES, MARVIN GAYE etc, etc hits are all as important as the rarer more esoteric stuff. Those records were/are 'the golden gateway' you could say, so I think in all honesty, 'Northern Soul' as a collective entity celebrates both success and failure.

Both. lol

Bingo! Right answer Chorleysoul. Well done. (I never actually thought of that ).

Actually that's exactly how it happened for me thinking about it. I heard all the Motown hits as a kid growing up and I guess it was a natural path to eventually go deeper. Also it helped that I was in Motown/Northern friendly place where every Youth Club played Motown, Soul and the 'available' Northern and there were whispers about this place in Manchester called the Wheel - so it wasn't too hard to gravitate towards Northern being in the middle of Leeds, Wakefield, Dewsbury, Bradford and Huddersfield - all ferocious Soul havens in the late 60's/early 70's.

It's interesting how some people moved deeper into Northern travelling around the country whilst others chose to keep to a more local level and just go to the local Soul nights though......

Golden gateway is exactly the right term!

Ian D