Does Northern Soul Celebrate Failure More Than Success?

[Ian Dewhirst]

A whole heap of recent threads on S.S. have lead me to believe that it's currently much more fashionable to ridicule success of any sort and applaud failure.

Why is that?

Some recent instances could include the following examples:-

1) Take such phenomenonally commercially successful Northern Soul records such as "This Old Heart Of Mine" - The Isley Brothers or even the completely reviled "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)" - Frank Wilson. Both records are absolute pinnacles of everything a Northern Soul record should be, yet because the Isley Brothers was eventually a UK Top 10 hit and because Frank Wilson has become something of a cliche on the scene, both records are scorned and treated with disrespect compared to a no-hoper recorded in a shed in Carolina which always had little or no chance of any success.

2) Previously phenomenally successful Northern Soul venues such as, for the sake of arguement, Wigan Casino, which arguably did more to spread the popularity of Northern Soul then any other venue ever, are derided because of their success and the influence they had on the scene at the time. Likewise certain DJ's from certain eras.

3) Certain promoters who have had a long time career (in some cases all their lives) being involved in Northern Soul are derided for catering to large audiences, being commercially successful and essentially making a success of their efforts.

4) Even Berry Gordy, arguably the most influential person in Northern Soul history, is looked upon with suspicion because he was a successful businessman first and foremost and thus not so fashionable when it comes to icons of the scene.

The consistant thread which comes out of all this, is that it would appear that anyone who has any kind of commercial success within Northern Soul circles is treated with suspicion or dread.

Which is weird. Why on earth would anyone decry success in a given field?

So my theory is that failure is fundamental to the popularity of certain areas within Northern Soul circles. Success is frowned upon whereas failure is applauded. Would this be an accurate statement?

Ian D

Edited February 26, 2010 by Ian Dewhirst

[Guest gordon russell]

OF COURSE IT CELEBRATES FAILURE...........MOST EVERY TUNE OUT THERE FAILED AT THE TIME OF RELEASE......

[Ian Dewhirst]

OF COURSE IT CELEBRATES FAILURE...........MOST EVERY TUNE OUT THERE FAILED AT THE TIME OF RELEASE......

Including "This Old Heart Of Mine", "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)" and "She's Fire". But does that make Jackie Wilson's "I Get The Sweetest Feeling" or Johnny Johnson's "Sweet Inspiration" less credible records?

Ian D

[Guest Heartnsoul]

OF COURSE IT CELEBRATES FAILURE...........MOST EVERY TUNE OUT THERE FAILED AT THE TIME OF RELEASE......

Good point. And don't forget that we Brits champion the underdog, love a good old moan, and despise success - we're not American!

[Dave Thorley]

Including "This Old Heart Of Mine", "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)" and "She's Fire". But does that make Jackie Wilson's "I Get The Sweetest Feeling" or Johnny Johnson's "Sweet Inspiration" less credible records?

Ian D

Success is relative, the fact that they got the tracks recorded at all is sometimes a major achievement and so we celebrate that success. Also the tracks we love, we also celebrate for what we see as their soulful quality, even if their peers of the time didn't see it at the time.

Maybe another way of looking at it.

Dave

Edited February 26, 2010 by Dave Thorley

[KevH]

Yes it does.We are a nation who thrive on it.Build it up to knock it down,that's us.Laughing in the face of adversity while someone fiddles.

[Agentsmith]

ian,

id say, as someone who has frequented the scene myself, for nearly 40 years and as a person who is aware of your standing within the community that we are all subject to building our scene up as something unique, unlike other styles of music but contradict its reverence by shunning commercialism in whatever form it happens to rub off on it. we want what we love to be recognised by the rest of the world but jealouslly guard it, fearful that the masses would take it out of our hands and make it just another unappealing format.

there is a fine line or tipping point, its been witnessed in its grossly vulgaric form in the 70's when we unassumingly thought the world would love this new musical trend and maybe commercialism would further the cause to make northern soul appeal to all but the paparazzi, in particular tried to portray it as the next thing off the production line after bay city rollers, mud sweet, slade, gary glitter etc., and as such their efforts succeeded....just as well because in the long run we triumphed over their adversity.

no other musical phenomenon could have submerged and resurfaced unscathed thusblowing the andy warhol myth of 15 mins of fame. were all wiser and a good many amongst us have become capable of enhancing the quality of our music in the commercial sector whith the result that it is regarded with seriousness and respect and is used skilfully without being abused.

northern soul hasnt been broadcast on tv since the 70's...yes there have been occasional local news features and paul o'grady tributes ( yuk!). if we were sufficiently sure that it would be presented in the right light, we'd probably embrace it...grudgingly but for 2 1/2 decades our scene has grown massively and dosnt need the help of outsiders to convince converts, particularly amongst the younger generations, just how appealing this music is.

rob.h

[Guest posstot]

Good point. And don't forget that we Brits champion the underdog, love a good old moan, and despise success - we're not American!

I like that, it'e funny.

[Guest Matt Male]

It depends what you consider to be successful and how that success is measured. For example Wigan, was it successful because it encouraged thousands onto the scene, or was that a failure because it created a populist movement of hangers on and 'tourists' as they were called? It's all a matter of perspective i reckon.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Matt Male

[Guest Heartnsoul]

Success is relative, the fact that they got the tracks recorded at all is sometimes a major achievement and so we celebrate that success. Also the tracks we love, we also celebrate for what we see as their soulful quality, even if their peers of the time didn't see it at the time.

Maybe another way of looking at it.

Dave

Well said Dave. Success, like many other concepts in life is always relative.

In other words, the 'success' quotent of many Northern records is judged by the esteem in which they are held on 'the scene' (i.e their pure quality) rather than their commercial success at the time of release, or the value based on rarity and the price that some minted geezer is prepared to pay in order to own them?

[KevH]

Good point. And don't forget that we Brits champion the underdog, love a good old moan, and despise success - we're not American!

Here,here!!!.I'm not American either,and damn glad of it.

[Dave Thorley]

Well said Dave. Success, like many other concepts in life is always relative.

In other words, the 'success' quotent of many Northern records is judged by the esteem in which they are held on 'the scene' (i.e their pure quality) rather than their commercial success at the time of release, or the value based on rarity and the price that some minted geezer is prepared to pay in order to own them?

I've relayed this story enough times, when i met George Brown (Soul brothers Inc - Pyramid), he saw success in terms of them recording a great song, that eventually people somewhere, it just happen to be in europe, appreciated. Local commercial success would have been nice, but he is proud and happy that they made a great record and it's popularity here is the success.

Dave

[Shsdave]

Success is relative, the fact that they got the tracks recorded at all is sometimes a major achievement and so we celebrate that success. Also the tracks we love, we also celebrate for what we see as their soulful quality, even if their peers of the time didn't see it at the time.

Maybe another way of looking at it.

Dave

Totally agree Dave, we are "celebrating" quality music that was never appreciated/or heard beyond a local level (if then!) at the time.

As for example the Isleys This old heart of mine, it's fantastic & one of my all time favourite records, but definately don't want to hear it out tho'. I can play it at home, when I go out I want to hear things that I haven't got at home

As for succesful promoters, for me it's how they go about things. They could run the biggest & best soul night/allnighter in the world but if they're obnoxious individuals who tried to use every post on any subject as a vehicle to promote this imaginary club I don't think I'd feel like helping to line their pockets.

If they advertised their club in the events forum & didn't try ramming it down peoples throats who could possibly have a problem with that? Whether their night was to your taste or not would be immaterial, you'd either attend or not,support or ignore

[Ian Dewhirst]

Good point. And don't forget that we Brits champion the underdog, love a good old moan, and despise success - we're not American!

Good point also. Are the Brits so idiosyncratic that this scene would probably not have thrived without such idiosyncracities?

In other words, our love of commercial failure built the scene in the first place?

Ian D

[Dave Thorley]

Good point also. Are the Brits so idiosyncratic that this scene would probably not have thrived without such idiosyncracities?

In other words, our love of commercial failure built the scene in the first place?

Ian D

Get yourself off to bed, your thinking to hard.

Dave

[Shsdave]

ian,

id say, as someone who has frequented the scene myself, for nearly 40 years and as a person who is aware of your standing within the community that we are all subject to building our scene up as something unique, unlike other styles of music but contradict its reverence by shunning commercialism in whatever form it happens to rub off on it. we want what we love to be recognised by the rest of the world but jealouslly guard it, fearful that the masses would take it out of our hands and make it just another unappealing format.

there is a fine line or tipping point, its been witnessed in its grossly vulgaric form in the 70's when we unassumingly thought the world would love this new musical trend and maybe commercialism would further the cause to make northern soul appeal to all but the paparazzi, in particular tried to portray it as the next thing off the production line after bay city rollers, mud sweet, slade, gary glitter etc., and as such their efforts succeeded....just as well because in the long run we triumphed over their adversity.

no other musical phenomenon could have submerged and resurfaced unscathed thusblowing the andy warhol myth of 15 mins of fame. were all wiser and a good many amongst us have become capable of enhancing the quality of our music in the commercial sector whith the result that it is regarded with seriousness and respect and is used skilfully without being abused.

northern soul hasnt been broadcast on tv since the 70's...yes there have been occasional local news features and paul o'grady tributes ( yuk!). if we were sufficiently sure that it would be presented in the right light, we'd probably embrace it...grudgingly but for 2 1/2 decades our scene has grown massively and dosnt need the help of outsiders to convince converts, particularly amongst the younger generations, just how appealing this music is.

rob.h

Good post Rob you coming to london this year ? Any Dates

[Ian Dewhirst]

Yes it does.We are a nation who thrive on it.Build it up to knock it down,that's us.Laughing in the face of adversity while someone fiddles.

Truer words were never spake. What is it about us that loves to moan about success? Up until now I thought Northern Soul was bulletproof within it's own circle but if the truth's known this scene is probably the most ferociously difficult to survive within itself than any other scene I can think of.

When I started off circa 1970-71, it was accepted that newies to the scene were 'divs' until they'd stayed around long enough to be accepted by one's elders.

However, back then, no one was even thinking about looking forward.

But here we are some 40 years down the line and we're dealing with a whole new set of issues. For instance:-

1) The evolvement of the scene. Those who were around in the 70's didn't necessarily experience the Stafford/100 Club 'lean' years and so a culture gap exposed itself.

2) The evolvement of the music. Northern Soul didn't get easier to find in the 80's, 90's and 00's, so the sound necessarily evolved way beyond the template which was popular in the 70's.

3) Age. Just like any other musical scene, the stuff which appealed to earlier generations wouldn't necessarily translate to a new, younger audience who preferred to forge their own identity with their musical preferences.

However, the consistant theme throughout, is that if a record was a failure it would probably be embraced by the Northern/Rare Soul scene BECAUSE it was a failure. And the bigger the failure the better. Right?

So we celebrate failure, yes?

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Get yourself off to bed, your thinking to hard.

Dave

LOL, you're probably right Dave, but I'm just a mere vessel when organic creativity beckons........

Plus I'm pissed which probably helps.........

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

ian,

id say, as someone who has frequented the scene myself, for nearly 40 years and as a person who is aware of your standing within the community that we are all subject to building our scene up as something unique, unlike other styles of music but contradict its reverence by shunning commercialism in whatever form it happens to rub off on it. we want what we love to be recognised by the rest of the world but jealouslly guard it, fearful that the masses would take it out of our hands and make it just another unappealing format.

there is a fine line or tipping point, its been witnessed in its grossly vulgaric form in the 70's when we unassumingly thought the world would love this new musical trend and maybe commercialism would further the cause to make northern soul appeal to all but the paparazzi, in particular tried to portray it as the next thing off the production line after bay city rollers, mud sweet, slade, gary glitter etc., and as such their efforts succeeded....just as well because in the long run we triumphed over their adversity.

no other musical phenomenon could have submerged and resurfaced unscathed thusblowing the andy warhol myth of 15 mins of fame. were all wiser and a good many amongst us have become capable of enhancing the quality of our music in the commercial sector whith the result that it is regarded with seriousness and respect and is used skilfully without being abused.

northern soul hasnt been broadcast on tv since the 70's...yes there have been occasional local news features and paul o'grady tributes ( yuk!). if we were sufficiently sure that it would be presented in the right light, we'd probably embrace it...grudgingly but for 2 1/2 decades our scene has grown massively and dosnt need the help of outsiders to convince converts, particularly amongst the younger generations, just how appealing this music is.

rob.h

Yep. Great post Rob. Lots of food for thought right there mate.

Ian D

[Wiggyflat]

I don't know if it is celebrating failure, celebrating the underdog maybe and more importantly being in the know, one step ahead and exclusivity.When it gets known, bootlegged, commercialised then it's dropped.This is what keeps it moving on and on and on...until the well dries up in 50 years or so. I suppose Wigan stopped searching for soul in 78/79 when all the pop started getting played and the searching for good black music stopped.The djs have definately been proven wrong due to the immense amount of good sixties/seventies/eighties tracks out there..even nineties and millenium. Just opened a brown packet to find you did it for me-Al Wilson,In Love-Tony Galla,Its not too late-Al Johnson and a new record If This Aint Love-Nicole Willis....all quality records and were overlooked at the time by the general public (don't know about the Nicole Willis).The problem starts when djs mine the substandard stuff recorded in a toilet which the artists didn't see fit to be released at the time and are playing it because it is exclusive.Exclusive don't mean good.Does it celebrate failure...no.Does it champion the underdog yes.

[Guest daz mycroft]

A whole heap of recent threads on S.S. have lead me to believe that it's currently much more fashionable to ridicule success of any sort and applaud failure.

Why is that?

Some recent instances could include the following examples:-

1) Take such phenomenonally commercially successful Northern Soul records such as "This Old Heart Of Mine" - The Isley Brothers or even the completely reviled "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)" - Frank Wilson. Both records are absolute pinnacles of everything a Northern Soul record should be, yet because the Isley Brothers was eventually a UK Top 10 hit and because Frank Wilson has become something of a cliche on the scene, both records are scorned and treated with disrespect compared to a no-hoper recorded in a shed in Carolina which always had little or no chance of any success.

2) Previously phenomenally successful Northern Soul venues such as, for the sake of arguement, Wigan Casino, which arguably did more to spread the popularity of Northern Soul then any other venue ever, are derided because of their success and the influence they had on the scene at the time. Likewise certain DJ's from certain eras.

3) Certain promoters who have had a long time career (in some cases all their lives) being involved in Northern Soul are derided for catering to large audiences, being commercially successful and essentially making a success of their efforts.

4) Even Berry Gordy, arguably the most influential person in Northern Soul history, is looked upon with suspicion because he was a successful businessman first and foremost and thus not so fashionable when it comes to icons of the scene.

The consistant thread which comes out of all this, is that it would appear that anyone who has any kind of commercial success within Northern Soul circles is treated with suspicion or dread.

Which is weird. Why on earth would anyone decry success in a given field?

So my theory is that failure is fundamental to the popularity of certain areas within Northern Soul circles. Success is frowned upon whereas failure is applauded. Would this be an accurate statement?

Ian D

[Guest daz mycroft]

A whole heap of recent threads on S.S. have lead me to believe that it's currently much more fashionable to ridicule success of any sort and applaud failure.

Why is that?

Some recent instances could include the following examples:-

1) Take such phenomenonally commercially successful Northern Soul records such as "This Old Heart Of Mine" - The Isley Brothers or even the completely reviled "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)" - Frank Wilson. Both records are absolute pinnacles of everything a Northern Soul record should be, yet because the Isley Brothers was eventually a UK Top 10 hit and because Frank Wilson has become something of a cliche on the scene, both records are scorned and treated with disrespect compared to a no-hoper recorded in a shed in Carolina which always had little or no chance of any success.

2) Previously phenomenally successful Northern Soul venues such as, for the sake of arguement, Wigan Casino, which arguably did more to spread the popularity of Northern Soul then any other venue ever, are derided because of their success and the influence they had on the scene at the time. Likewise certain DJ's from certain eras.

3) Certain promoters who have had a long time career (in some cases all their lives) being involved in Northern Soul are derided for catering to large audiences, being commercially successful and essentially making a success of their efforts.

4) Even Berry Gordy, arguably the most influential person in Northern Soul history, is looked upon with suspicion because he was a successful businessman first and foremost and thus not so fashionable when it comes to icons of the scene.

The consistant thread which comes out of all this, is that it would appear that anyone who has any kind of commercial success within Northern Soul circles is treated with suspicion or dread.

Which is weird. Why on earth would anyone decry success in a given field?

So my theory is that failure is fundamental to the popularity of certain areas within Northern Soul circles. Success is frowned upon whereas failure is applauded. Would this be an accurate statement?

Ian D

[Guest daz mycroft]

probabably this answer is rather simplistic to the other comments other people have so eloquently posted. however here goes . My father( in the fifties i may add ) was an avid collector of US rnb. in which my Grandfather god bless him hated as he always purchaced Ella fitzgerald Count Basie etc. My Dad always loved Jackie Wilson ( be grudgingly) right up until the late 60,s

However when he first heard Benny troy which was my fave at the time he totally dismissed it as " disco shit" now i am having the same discussions with my kids regarding The Roots Jhon legend etc.

I dont think its about celebrating Failiure, more the constant need of the youth of this country to experiment and innovate with US BLACK music.

[Guest Gogs]

Always been something i can't understand about this scene, it's a northern record one minute then gets re-released, the artists get their money and it's no longer northern soul ??

[Guest Paul]

Just a quick reply because I don't want to get sidetracked into issues of socialism and sympathy etc. (you'll be very please to hear) but yes, you're quite right. Most of us have a natural (sub-conscious) tendency to support the poor and unsuccessful underdogs rather than the rich and successful chart-toppers and award-winners.

To some it may be a bit of an "alternative" or "exclusitivity" thing (as in anti-fashion etc) but I firmly believe that I genuinely love and rate the music I'm interested in. It just happens that a lot of it wasn't very successful.

I don't think I'm fooling myself about this but I do admit that I'm particularly drawn to sad songs and stories ...so maybe I'm a bit of a manic depressive?

As teenagers some of us may have been attracted (to various degrees) by the fact that it seemed so "hip" and "different" but I also enjoy a lot of music by famous and successful artists so I'm convinced it's natural musical taste.

And it's all in direct contrast to most common attitudes of today where so many poor and "ordinary" people are obsessed with rich, successful and powerful celebrities. Things have certainly changed a lot over the years.

Let me know if you can recommend a good therapist.

[Guest Gogs]

Just a quick reply because I don't want to get sidetracked into issues of socialism and sympathy etc. (you'll be very please to hear) but yes, you're quite right. Most of us have a natural (sub-conscious) tendency to support the poor and unsuccessful underdogs rather than the rich and successful chart-toppers and award-winners.

HEY Paul i think you have just answered my question

[Guest Ollie Lailey]

I like soul records because they sound good. The fact that they were not a hit has a small part to do with it, but mostly because they capture a moment. A moment where a few boys or girls were cutting a track, maybe thinking that it would be a hit, but mainly because they could and they had a talent. I feel privileged that i get to hear these moments. If i'm honest the fact that most people i know of my age (29) will never hear or "get" these records gives me a bit of a satisfaction. Wrong? I know but what are you gonna do?

Edited February 27, 2010 by Ollie Lailey

[Guest Dante]

probabably this answer is rather simplistic to the other comments other people have so eloquently posted. however here goes . My father( in the fifties i may add ) was an avid collector of US rnb. in which my Grandfather god bless him hated as he always purchaced Ella fitzgerald Count Basie etc. My Dad always loved Jackie Wilson ( be grudgingly) right up until the late 60,s

However when he first heard Benny troy which was my fave at the time he totally dismissed it as " disco shit" now i am having the same discussions with my kids regarding The Roots Jhon legend etc.

I dont think its about celebrating Failiure, more the constant need of the youth of this country to experiment and innovate with US BLACK music.

Well, they have good taste. thought you were going to say Black Eyed Peas or something, but the Roots is agreat band!

Anyway, I think it's not exactly failure what it's been celebrated, more the uniqueness and sense of belonging and, even owning, the music.

Let me try to explain. There are dozens of rare _______ scenes in the world, from doo wop to 2000s indie. All of them are based in discovering good music in a particular genre. It usually happens that when an artist or style (Motown, as far as NS go) has major success, hundreds of other artist try to emulat their style, and very few make the charts. So, the rare soul, doo wop, garage, whatever crowd seeks for those records not because they failed, but because they will be theirs. Those records become their 'secret' and give the scene a sense of cohesion, belonging and identity from the mainstream culture. Not everybody can talk about, say, Towanda Barnes in the same way they can talk about Diana Ross. TW is a northern soul discovery, so only those who are initiated can discuss her, wich makes them feel good about themselves, their knowledge and their scene. If TW goes mainstream, as it happened with Frank Wilson, every Joe out there knows it and the feel of owning (as a scene) the record, vanishes.

Just my two cents.

[Guest Dave Turner]

Well, they have good taste. thought you were going to say Black Eyed Peas or something, but the Roots is agreat band!

Anyway, I think it's not exactly failure what it's been celebrated, more the uniqueness and sense of belonging and, even owning, the music.

Let me try to explain. There are dozens of rare _______ scenes in the world, from doo wop to 2000s indie. All of them are based in discovering good music in a particular genre. It usually happens that when an artist or style (Motown, as far as NS go) has major success, hundreds of other artist try to emulat their style, and very few make the charts. So, the rare soul, doo wop, garage, whatever crowd seeks for those records not because they failed, but because they will be theirs. Those records become their 'secret' and give the scene a sense of cohesion, belonging and identity from the mainstream culture. Not everybody can talk about, say, Towanda Barnes in the same way they can talk about Diana Ross. TW is a northern soul discovery, so only those who are initiated can discuss her, wich makes them feel good about themselves, their knowledge and their scene. If TW goes mainstream, as it happened with Frank Wilson, every Joe out there knows it and the feel of owning (as a scene) the record, vanishes.

Just my two cents.

Great explanation, hit it right on the head

[Guest Ollie Lailey]

Well, they have good taste. thought you were going to say Black Eyed Peas or something, but the Roots is agreat band!

Anyway, I think it's not exactly failure what it's been celebrated, more the uniqueness and sense of belonging and, even owning, the music.

Let me try to explain. There are dozens of rare _______ scenes in the world, from doo wop to 2000s indie. All of them are based in discovering good music in a particular genre. It usually happens that when an artist or style (Motown, as far as NS go) has major success, hundreds of other artist try to emulat their style, and very few make the charts. So, the rare soul, doo wop, garage, whatever crowd seeks for those records not because they failed, but because they will be theirs. Those records become their 'secret' and give the scene a sense of cohesion, belonging and identity from the mainstream culture. Not everybody can talk about, say, Towanda Barnes in the same way they can talk about Diana Ross. TW is a northern soul discovery, so only those who are initiated can discuss her, wich makes them feel good about themselves, their knowledge and their scene. If TW goes mainstream, as it happened with Frank Wilson, every Joe out there knows it and the feel of owning (as a scene) the record, vanishes.

Just my two cents.

Spot on mate.

[harpo1]

Great point!

Of course any artist who makes a record does so with the hope that they will achieve recognition, and maybe be able to make a career, and some cash, too. It is sad that in many cases those hopes and dreams did not come to fruition, and they ended up having to find other careers, maybe being able to still perform locally, or in church etc...etc...

We have listened to these recordings for so long in many cases with the artistes not knowing , its sad thats the case.

Most of those who have found out have been gratefull, and in some cases overawed, shame it was not many more

ph

[Agentsmith]

Good post Rob you coming to london this year ? Any Dates

dunno yet dave, do miss it tho. will stay in touch oh.....and i would love to see another YELLOW LABEL SET!....KNOW WHAT I MEAN?.....that'll get the mentalists thinkin'

rob.h

[Dave Thorley]

LOL, you're probably right Dave, but I'm just a mere vessel when organic creativity beckons........

Plus I'm pissed which probably helps.........

Ian D

So was I, so I took the bed option....

[Rob Wigley]

By celebrating "The Underdog" or "failure" we are helping to keep something alive that would have otherwise been lost.

Most true artist/ musicians see their work as their children-they conceive them, bring them in to the world, help them take their first steps, pick them up when they fall and unconditionally love them-forever.

So when a bunch of nutters from England find one of these records (children) makes it big to a whole bunch of people in the UK /world and the word eventually spreads back to the artist in the USA-he can then dust off his "Creation" and say "We'll son you did me proud, at last 46 year old and you made it !!" and tell his friends and neighbours how he's BIG in England.

Otherwise its "Don't mention the record"-yes we celebrate "Failure" because the truth is The Yanks, in general, don't want to know about it, in any walk of life!

Rob

[Epic]

I look at it this way - Van Gogh never sold a painting when he was alive - perhaps if KRL or Ian Dewhirst's "MasterPaints" had been around marketing him then he may have done a bit better.

Think most peoples introduction to Soul in the late 60s/early 70s was via Motown . Berry Gordy surrounded himself with talent & new how to market a product.

On the talent side lots of other labels had it in abundance, but not the marketing to go with it - perhaps if every 60s soul record ever made had been a massive hit there may never have been a Northern Soul scene.

Ponder this - if "Stop In The Name Of Love" had been dismissed by Motown quality control & "Do I Love You" had been a worldwide hit - which record would have been played on the Northern scene ? Which wins - Rarity or Quality ?

[Dazdakin]

ian,

id say, as someone who has frequented the scene myself, for nearly 40 years and as a person who is aware of your standing within the community that we are all subject to building our scene up as something unique, unlike other styles of music but contradict its reverence by shunning commercialism in whatever form it happens to rub off on it. we want what we love to be recognised by the rest of the world but jealouslly guard it, fearful that the masses would take it out of our hands and make it just another unappealing format.

there is a fine line or tipping point, its been witnessed in its grossly vulgaric form in the 70's when we unassumingly thought the world would love this new musical trend and maybe commercialism would further the cause to make northern soul appeal to all but the paparazzi, in particular tried to portray it as the next thing off the production line after bay city rollers, mud sweet, slade, gary glitter etc., and as such their efforts succeeded....just as well because in the long run we triumphed over their adversity.

no other musical phenomenon could have submerged and resurfaced unscathed thusblowing the andy warhol myth of 15 mins of fame. were all wiser and a good many amongst us have become capable of enhancing the quality of our music in the commercial sector whith the result that it is regarded with seriousness and respect and is used skilfully without being abused.

Agree with all you said here apart from the young generation bit......Mmm where are they?? as i dont see them in the amounts that this scene surly needs.

What this scene needs is another MOD explosion akin to the one that happened in the late 70,s early 80's, i seem to remember that boosted attendances all over the country with the outcome being that some came and went but alot stayed on till this day.

In short we need fresh blood for this scene to survive beyond another 15 yrs or so, otherwise it will just become an underground internet record collectors scene and that on its own is just pants.

IMHO!!

northern soul hasnt been broadcast on tv since the 70's...yes there have been occasional local news features and paul o'grady tributes ( yuk!). if we were sufficiently sure that it would be presented in the right light, we'd probably embrace it...grudgingly but for 2 1/2 decades our scene has grown massively and dosnt need the help of outsiders to convince converts, particularly amongst the younger generations, just how appealing this music is.

rob.h

[Zed1]

Ponder this - if "Stop In The Name Of Love" had been dismissed by Motown quality control & "Do I Love You" had been a worldwide hit - which record would have been played on the Northern scene ? Which wins - Rarity or Quality

An excellent analogy, which if you take to it's logical conclusion would mean we'd all hate the Supremes now because they'd have committed the hanus crime of being a success on the NS scene, ergo - the exception which proves our own rule.....

That uniquely British trait of Championing the underdog may apply to the NS scene, but that other trait we seem so good at then comes into play, ie 'We build 'em up to knock 'em down'.

Edit..

Random observations...

Analogy - Analogy

Hanus - Hanus

Edited February 27, 2010 by Teapot

[Guest]

Can't say I agree with that, I don't know anyone who thinks that the poor have any virtues, or that they deserve any special consideration, if they deserve any consideration at all. I believe that rare records evolved on the scene because they were exclusive, not because they were unsuccessful (but of course it was their lack of success that made them exclusive--there is a subtle distinction here that is worth pursuing). Exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, the virtues of modernism, and quite the opposite of "socialism".

[KevH]

Truer words were never spake. What is it about us that loves to moan about success? Up until now I thought Northern Soul was bulletproof within it's own circle but if the truth's known this scene is probably the most ferociously difficult to survive within itself than any other scene I can think of.

When I started off circa 1970-71, it was accepted that newies to the scene were 'divs' until they'd stayed around long enough to be accepted by one's elders.

However, back then, no one was even thinking about looking forward.

But here we are some 40 years down the line and we're dealing with a whole new set of issues. For instance:-

1) The evolvement of the scene. Those who were around in the 70's didn't necessarily experience the Stafford/100 Club 'lean' years and so a culture gap exposed itself.

2) The evolvement of the music. Northern Soul didn't get easier to find in the 80's, 90's and 00's, so the sound necessarily evolved way beyond the template which was popular in the 70's.

3) Age. Just like any other musical scene, the stuff which appealed to earlier generations wouldn't necessarily translate to a new, younger audience who preferred to forge their own identity with their musical preferences.

However, the consistant theme throughout, is that if a record was a failure it would probably be embraced by the Northern/Rare Soul scene BECAUSE it was a failure. And the bigger the failure the better. Right?

So we celebrate failure, yes?

Ian D

Ian,there are people on the scene who've been around for say,20 years,who are regarded by some as "new" of even "divs" still.

What's the saying in Life of Brian - "30 years behind the bell,and proud of it!.Spare a few shekels for a NS leper?".

Edited February 27, 2010 by KevH

[funkyfeet]

Remember a lot of successes were actually failures until found and pushed by the soul scene, and I guess something like the Mellow Souls would suffer the same fate if it was suddenly taken into that arena.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I just like good music whether it's a success or not is irrelevant.

[Agentsmith]

daz,

im sure that malc's corresponding thread (will we all be dead) will dissapate any aspertions that may be cast about wether the scene will survive, as basically these two threads are closely engaged and the fact that as you or anyone else may witness week in, week out, the calender is burgeoning under a mountain of events and, whilst that is another bone of contention, i believe that punters are not nesessarily spread thin. you cant fail to notice either, that the mod scene IS still going strong after the initial stigma of commercial interference and thats NOT underground either...the clothes and scooters infact, have attracted the opposite interest from a broader swathe of the public, spurred on by designers/manufactureres who, by no strange quirk of fate, emerged from that very same embrionic first revival and deemed it to be cool to wear sharp clothes and ride remodelled scooters. weve been to this lectern before addressing where the legions of new followers are coming from.....but they ARE coming, we are not reliant either, on the major cities like in the 60's with nothing in between. soul music envelopes all of the various subcultures and every urban sprawl now boasts its enclaves, hence everyone's competing to have a good gig, plenty of choice, a good variety of music and, unlike today's contrived pop pewk the scene dosnt suffer from under-aged, bottle smashing, knife wielding, drug-crazed drunken brawls in the street....thats a significantly good reason for attracting younger age groups to proper, honest-to-goodness soul music that can be danced to and enjoyed without the threat of some yob trying to muscle in on your girl.

WE CREATED THIS CULTURE, IT WAS GIVEN A TITLE THAT WAS DIFFERENT AND WE FLOCKED TO IT AND, LONG AFTER (TONIGHT IS ALL OVER) WERE GONE, THE FLAME WILL STILL BE CARRIED BY OTHERS BECAUSE WE LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR GENERATIONS TO CARRY ON FLYING THE FLAG FOR NORTHERN SOUL.....IT ISNT A FAD, NEVER HAS BEEN, NEVER WILL BE...ITS LIFE AS WE KNOW IT AND LIKE THE STARS, ITS ETERNAL.

rob.h

[Ian Parker]

I think of Northern Soul as more of a success

It's kept us all interested for many years!

Debbie x

[Tony A]

daz,

im sure that malc's corresponding thread (will we all be dead) will dissapate any aspertions that may be cast about wether the scene will survive, as basically these two threads are closely engaged and the fact that as you or anyone else may witness week in, week out, the calender is burgeoning under a mountain of events and, whilst that is another bone of contention, i believe that punters are not nesessarily spread thin. you cant fail to notice either, that the mod scene IS still going strong after the initial stigma of commercial interference and thats NOT underground either...the clothes and scooters infact, have attracted the opposite interest from a broader swathe of the public, spurred on by designers/manufactureres who, by no strange quirk of fate, emerged from that very same embrionic first revival and deemed it to be cool to wear sharp clothes and ride remodelled scooters. weve been to this lectern before addressing where the legions of new followers are coming from.....but they ARE coming, we are not reliant either, on the major cities like in the 60's with nothing in between. soul music envelopes all of the various subcultures and every urban sprawl now boasts its enclaves, hence everyone's competing to have a good gig, plenty of choice, a good variety of music and, unlike today's contrived pop pewk the scene dosnt suffer from under-aged, bottle smashing, knife wielding, drug-crazed drunken brawls in the street....thats a significantly good reason for attracting younger age groups to proper, honest-to-goodness soul music that can be danced to and enjoyed without the threat of some yob trying to muscle in on your girl.

WE CREATED THIS CULTURE, IT WAS GIVEN A TITLE THAT WAS DIFFERENT AND WE FLOCKED TO IT AND, LONG AFTER (TONIGHT IS ALL OVER) WERE GONE, THE FLAME WILL STILL BE CARRIED BY OTHERS BECAUSE WE LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR GENERATIONS TO CARRY ON FLYING THE FLAG FOR NORTHERN SOUL.....IT ISNT A FAD, NEVER HAS BEEN, NEVER WILL BE...ITS LIFE AS WE KNOW IT AND LIKE THE STARS, ITS ETERNAL.

rob.h

I must congratulate you on a fantastic post, all true and commonsense to read, keep the faith and the flag flying.

Regards, Tony.

[Guest Dante]

By celebrating "The Underdog" or "failure" we are helping to keep something alive that would have otherwise been lost.

Most true artist/ musicians see their work as their children-they conceive them, bring them in to the world, help them take their first steps, pick them up when they fall and unconditionally love them-forever.

So when a bunch of nutters from England find one of these records (children) makes it big to a whole bunch of people in the UK /world and the word eventually spreads back to the artist in the USA-he can then dust off his "Creation" and say "We'll son you did me proud, at last 46 year old and you made it !!" and tell his friends and neighbours how he's BIG in England.

Otherwise its "Don't mention the record"-yes we celebrate "Failure" because the truth is The Yanks, in general, don't want to know about it, in any walk of life!

Rob

So that makes the northern scene a bunch of speeded paedophiles dancing all night?

[Guest Paul]

ame='gogs' date='27 February 2010 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1267234707' post='1273782'

Can't say I agree with that, I don't know anyone who thinks that the poor have any virtues, or that they deserve any special consideration, if they deserve any consideration at all. I believe that rare records evolved on the scene because they were exclusive, not because they were unsuccessful (but of course it was their lack of success that made them exclusive--there is a subtle distinction here that is worth pursuing). Exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, the virtues of modernism, and quite the opposite of "socialism".

Hello,

It isn't about agreeing or disagreeing, it's about our obvious differences. Neither is right or wrong, just very different.

It's interesting that we hold such opposite views (especially about people) but, like I said, things have changed so very much over the years - and not just on the soul scene. And it's fascinating that we can be into the same (or similar) things but for entirely different reasons.

The rarity and exclusivity factors are interesting but they are almost incidental to me, I'm just obsessed with the music and the original culture behind it. I was a schoolboy when I first fell in love with soul music and in those days I didn't know (or care) that some of it was rare or exclusive.

In fact, I grew up in a working-class town with a very strong 'northern soul' following and for some reason it tended to be the "poor" kids who got into soul music while the "rich" kids got into heavy rock etc. That's just the way it seemed to be at the time.

It wasn't even called 'northern soul' then, let alone 'rare soul'. And I started out buying records with my school lunch money so there was no chance of any one-upmanship. To each his own, as they say, but I'm not impressed by one-upmanship and I don't like the concept of admiring people for having (or being able to afford) something that others don't have or can't afford.

But the scene today is quite different in some ways to the scene I grew up on. Again, no disrespect to anyone, but I personally think the scene today (the 'rare soul' scene) potentially alienates a lot of people who may well love soul music but can't afford to "compete" or who find it all a bit too elitist. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the scene is quite small?

At least we have one thing in common: we like the same music.

[manus]

Hello,

It isn't about agreeing or disagreeing, it's about our obvious differences. Neither is right or wrong, just very different.

It's interesting that we hold such opposite views (especially about people) but, like I said, things have changed so very much over the years - and not just on the soul scene. And it's fascinating that we can be into the same (or similar) things but for entirely different reasons.

The rarity and exclusivity factors are interesting but they are almost incidental to me, I'm just obsessed with the music and the original culture behind it. I was a schoolboy when I first fell in love with soul music and in those days I didn't know (or care) that some of it was rare or exclusive.

In fact, I grew up in a working-class town with a very strong 'northern soul' following and for some reason it tended to be the "poor" kids who got into soul music while the "rich" kids got into heavy rock etc. That's just the way it seemed to be at the time.

It wasn't even called 'northern soul' then, let alone 'rare soul'. And I started out buying records with my school lunch money so there was no chance of any one-upmanship. To each his own, as they say, but I'm not impressed by one-upmanship and I don't like the concept of admiring people for having (or being able to afford) something that others don't have or can't afford.

But the scene today is quite different in some ways to the scene I grew up on. Again, no disrespect to anyone, but I personally think the scene today (the 'rare soul' scene) potentially alienates a lot of people who may well love soul music but can't afford to "compete" or who find it all a bit too elitist. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the scene is quite small?

At least we have one thing in common: we like the same music.

Agree with you Paul I grew up just down the road from you ,as you know, and almost everyone I knew who was into the music was from council estates or rented space from private landlords - It's something I've always been proud of - we were poor but stylish and into Black American music and Reggae. If it wasn't for the working class and poor of this country giving "consideration" to Black Music I wouldn't be sitting writing this half pissed on a Saturday night in 2010.

All the best

Manus

[Guest]

Agree with you Paul I grew up just down the road from you ,as you know, and almost everyone I knew who was into the music was from council estates or rented space from private landlords - It's something I've always been proud of - we were poor but stylish and into Black American music and Reggae. If it wasn't for the working class and poor of this country giving "consideration" to Black Music I wouldn't be sitting writing this half pissed on a Saturday night in 2010.

All the best

Manus

Agreed there, most kids who were into soul came from working class backgrounds. But feelings of working class solidarity had nothing to do with my reasons for getting into soul, consciously or otherwise. Same for my mates. As I've said, exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, quintessentially modernist values. It would never have occurred to us that we ought to feel any kind of special affinity with society's less fortunate members, whether they lived in England or North America. Probably explains why we've never had a Labour MP where I lived, and why Labour representation in the South East, as well as trade union membership, are fairly negligible. Same for me today to be honest. I don't particularly care about the social background of the artists, or those who appreciate their work. I like the music, that's it. I don't even care about the exclusivity part any more. That was a teenage thing.

[Guest Paul]

Agree with you Paul I grew up just down the road from you ,as you know, and almost everyone I knew who was into the music was from council estates or rented space from private landlords - It's something I've always been proud of - we were poor but stylish and into Black American music and Reggae. If it wasn't for the working class and poor of this country giving "consideration" to Black Music I wouldn't be sitting writing this half pissed on a Saturday night in 2010.

All the best

Manus

Hello Manus,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers the original spirit of the soul scene - at least as it was in the North East in the mid-to-late 1970s.

The original interest in soul and black music in this country was a love affair; and it was mostly poor and working-class people who fell in love with it.

We were so enthusiastic about sharing our love of music that we often gave records away to friends rather than try to "impress" them with one-upmanship etc. I often bought two copies of a record because I knew one of my friends would love it.

No wonder we are so poor (he he) but I'm sure we are rich in other ways.

Things have certainly changed but I'm convinced that many soul fans today still have that same spirit. They would rather help someone than try to impress them.

We all need to make a living (and I'm happy to make my living in the music business) but money isn't everything.

Take care,

[Guest Paul]

Agreed there, most kids who were into soul came from working class backgrounds. But feelings of working class solidarity had nothing to do with my reasons for getting into soul, consciously or otherwise. Same for my mates. As I've said, exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, quintessentially modernist values. It would never have occurred to us that we ought to feel any kind of special affinity with society's less fortunate members, whether they lived in England or North America. Probably explains why we've never had a Labour MP where I lived, and why Labour representation in the South East, as well as trade union membership, are fairly negligible. Same for me today to be honest. I don't particularly care about the social background of the artists, or those who appreciate their work. I like the music, that's it. I don't even care about the exclusivity part any more. That was a teenage thing.

Like I said, we may have been attracted to the music for different reasons but in the end you like the music for what it is. That's what's important.

[Guest Gogs]

ame='gogs' date='27 February 2010 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1267234707' post='1273782']

Can't say I agree with that, I don't know anyone who thinks that the poor have any virtues, or that they deserve any special consideration, if they deserve any consideration at all. I believe that rare records evolved on the scene because they were exclusive, not because they were unsuccessful (but of course it was their lack of success that made them exclusive--there is a subtle distinction here that is worth pursuing). Exclusivity and one-up-man-ship, the virtues of modernism, and quite the opposite of "socialism".

Sorry to dis-agree but being Scottish and following the national football & rugby teams, i know all about supporting the under-dog