Philly International Records Offices In Blaze

[Dave Thorley]

Saw this on another site and though I would share it with you all. The Building that houses the old Philadelphia International Records studio and offices caught fire today, see link to channel 3 news Philadelphia

https://cbs3.com/local/2.Alarm.Fire.2.1508812.html

Dave

[billb]

Saw this on another site and though I would share it with you all. The Building that houses the old Philadelphia International Records studio and offices caught fire today, see link to channel 3 news Philadelphia

https://cbs3.com/loca....2.1508812.html

Dave

https://www.kyw1060.com/Two-Alarm-Fire-In-Historic-Center-City-Building/6407260

While the damage was extensive, it didn't destroy any of their most valuable belongings:

"Our tapes -- 10,000 original recordings -- are in stored underground in a vault secretly somewhere, so that's out."

[Guest lifeandsoul]

Dave, good to see you on friday, one of the reasons i'm going to philly in a couple of weeks time is because someone was gonna show me around here!

[Guest Paul]

I'd just heard about this on facebook.

I hope they can salvage a lot of stuff.

[Guest Paul]

309 S. Broad Street

[Dave Thorley]

Interesting that he says 10,000 recordings. I'm sure they never put out 10,000 recordings so i wonder what un-release tracks are there, hhhuuummm

[Guest]

Interesting that he says 10,000 recordings. I'm sure they never put out 10,000 recordings so i wonder what un-release tracks are there, hhhuuummm

Maybe we'll find out when we are in our 70s, the scene will need a feresh injection of 'unreleased' stuff then!

[Guest]

Maybe we'll find out when we are in our 70s, the scene will need a fresh injection of 'unreleased' stuff then!

[Ian Dewhirst]

Interesting that he says 10,000 recordings. I'm sure they never put out 10,000 recordings so i wonder what un-release tracks are there, hhhuuummm

So many people have tried to get access to them over the years, it's pretty much the holy grail of unreleased recordings IMO. I know of two people that have been close to getting access but got stalled at the last minute - Tony Rounce may be able to throw some light on this as he's put together most of the currently available Philly re-issues over the last 20 years.

I've been told that they had a lot of contractual problems with their acts so didn't want to open a can of worms by releasing some of the previously unavailable stuff. Another theory is that Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff are so wealthy that they didn't particularly need the headaches, hassle and expense of digging into the unreleased stuff which is probably true as well.

Talks are continuing and there could be some light at the end of the tunnel. One thing that concerns me is that the quality of the tapes will be deteriorating all the time - even now some of those master tapes from the 70's are virtually unplayable as the oxide is coming away from the tapes - in some cases so badly that even 'baking' them won't save them so it's a race against time really. Demon currently control the European rights to P.I. so hopefully there'll be some progress in this area soon. Fingers crossed.

Ian D

Edited February 22, 2010 by Ian Dewhirst

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

So many people have tried to get access to them over the years, it's pretty much the holy grail of unreleased recordings IMO. I know of two people that have been close to getting access but got stalled at the last minute - Tony Rounce may be able to throw some light on this as he's put together most of the currently available Philly re-issues over the last 20 years.

I've been told that they had a lot of contractual problems with their acts so didn't want to open a can of worms by releasing some of the previously unavailable stuff. Another theory is that Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff are so wealthy that they didn't particularly need the headaches, hassle and expense of digging into the unreleased stuff which is probably true as well.

Talks are continuing and there could be some light at the end of the tunnel. One thing that concerns me is that the quality of the tapes will be deteriorating all the time - even now some of those master tapes from the 70's are virtually unplayable as the oxide is coming away from the tapes - in some cases so badly that even 'baking' them won't save them so it's a race against time really. Demon currently control the European rights to P.I. so hopefully there'll be some progress in this area soon. Fingers crossed.

Ian D

Yep, what Ian says is true - I was almost on the plane to Philly on two separate occasions when my 'vault visit' was pulled at PIR's end.

When I was putting together PIR releases on Westside, I was told by various PIR personnel that very little of the unreleased material was of releasable standard. I've actually seen lists of unissued PIR masters that involve artists like the Jones Girls, Bobby Rush and Dee Dee Sharp, although how complete the recordings in question are is anybody's guess.

I do know that Kenneth Gamble was particularly concerned about P/Us coming out that were not of the standard of the released stuff. What I don't is if there were any hidden agendas in terms of having to pay extra royalties on hitherto unreleased tracks. And really, it's none of my business...

PIR fans should note, by the way, that I'm currently working with Demon on the first time UK CD issue of several mid 70s PIR albums, among them the O'Jays' "Family Reunion" and Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes' "Wake Up Everybody..."

I suspect, BTW, that many of the 10,000 recordings that are referred to in the story are actually non-PIR, and are multitracks of other Sigma Sound-produced sessions that are not owned by PIR.

Edited February 22, 2010 by TONY ROUNCE

[Soul Shrews]

Tony as I'm sure you know theres at least 3 unreleased Jean Carne tracks...........also a complete Billy Paul LP and an LP of Jerry Butlers, according to Dexter Wansell.

When we visited 309 Broad St I also remember seeing a tape of Lou Rawls with "Me & Mrs Jones " on the cover

Not forgetting the OJays CD "Together We Are One" from 2004 of course

Hope theres not too much damage and Thom Bells piano escaped unscathed !!!

Cheers Paul

[Agentsmith]

i dont know about all the legal wrangling but dosnt everybody think it constitutes a crime that unreleased material of any description shuold be allowed to wallow away and deteriorate beyond recognition for the sake of just a few people's misguided beliefs?...i.e. punters would not be interested in listening to and buying the product thus enhancing the undoubted reputation of the artists and writers and producers who, afterall, gave of their own time and effort in an attempt to find a hit.

you know the oil shortages of 1974 put paid to a lot of vinyl, melted down and lost forever....god knows how many tunes we missed then....and then we have to comprehend something as unfair as genuinely unheard material being trashed because it was filed and forgotten about.

rob.h

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Tony as I'm sure you know theres at least 3 unreleased Jean Carne tracks...........also a complete Billy Paul LP and an LP of Jerry Butlers, according to Dexter Wansell.

When we visited 309 Broad St I also remember seeing a tape of Lou Rawls with "Me & Mrs Jones " on the cover

Not forgetting the OJays CD "Together We Are One" from 2004 of course

Hope theres not too much damage and Thom Bells piano escaped unscathed !!!

Cheers Paul

There's also enough mixed down repertoire for a complete Patti LaBelle 'Live' album - all that got released was her stupendous version of "If You Don't Know Me By Now".

I seem to recall seeing a lot of unreleased bits and pieces from around the time that MFSB Mk. 1 defected from G&H to become the Salsoul Orchestra. I suspect that at least some of that never got released at the time because the 'renegade' musicians and arrangers would have had to get paid if it had. This is just a theory of mine, but it would seem to hold water...

Edited February 22, 2010 by TONY ROUNCE

[Soul Shrews]

Tony your theory is like a bucket

Having had the privilege of seeing Patti Labelle live a couple of times the thought of a live LP is fantastic.

Did "If You Don't.............." get a 12 inch release or just the Pt 1/2 45???

Cheers Paul

[Guest phillybuster]

I suspect, BTW, that many of the 10,000 recordings that are referred to in the story are actually non-PIR, and are multitracks of other Sigma Sound-produced sessions that are not owned by PIR.

[Ian Dewhirst]

i dont know about all the legal wrangling but dosnt everybody think it constitutes a crime that unreleased material of any description shuold be allowed to wallow away and deteriorate beyond recognition for the sake of just a few people's misguided beliefs?...i.e. punters would not be interested in listening to and buying the product thus enhancing the undoubted reputation of the artists and writers and producers who, afterall, gave of their own time and effort in an attempt to find a hit.

you know the oil shortages of 1974 put paid to a lot of vinyl, melted down and lost forever....god knows how many tunes we missed then....and then we have to comprehend something as unfair as genuinely unheard material being trashed because it was filed and forgotten about.

rob.h

Yep, it is a crime but the age old dilemma of who pays for the restoration/studio work/courier charges on the tapes keeps coming up. It's really quite expensive to restore these old tapes these days. I had a similar problem at Salsoul where we had access to the tapes but the sheer act of getting them into a studio, cleaning them up, studio time @ $250 per hour, Engineers charges, getting them transferred to digital and then getting 'em back to the UK essentially cost too much for the actual amount that the CD's or vinyl would sell. Also, as with many of the companies in the 60's and 70's, their contracts didn't cover digital media (i.e. CD's) so technically that would mean that the artists would all have to be individually contacted again and issued with new contracts and that could open a can of worms for many companies to say nothing of the legal costs. Sad but true.

It all depends on the companies and the contracts they issued at the end of the day. It is possible and luckily companies like Ace/Kent and Numero do an excellent job with certain catalogues but the costs can be very prohibitive. Ironically, exactly the same thing seems to be happening with the majors right now where the costs of accessing the original masters from the U.S. and dealing with the attendant paperwork makes it not financially viable to licence certain tracks.

Everything keeps coming back to the money and with CD sales receeding and Download sales stagnant it's very difficult to persuade people that it's financially viable to spend a lot of time and effort in investigating and restoring unreleased masters. Incredibly frustrating.......

Ian D

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

i dont know about all the legal wrangling but dosnt everybody think it constitutes a crime that unreleased material of any description shuold be allowed to wallow away and deteriorate beyond recognition for the sake of just a few people's misguided beliefs?...i.e. punters would not be interested in listening to and buying the product thus enhancing the undoubted reputation of the artists and writers and producers who, afterall, gave of their own time and effort in an attempt to find a hit.

you know the oil shortages of 1974 put paid to a lot of vinyl, melted down and lost forever....god knows how many tunes we missed then....and then we have to comprehend something as unfair as genuinely unheard material being trashed because it was filed and forgotten about.

rob.h

Hi Rob,

Let's not assume that every unreleased piece of music in any tape vault is kept there just to upset soul collectors.

It's true that, in the 60s, a standard session was four songs and a label would often hold back a killer cut for an artist's second single, only to find that the first one didn't sell enough for a second single to be released. But by the 70s, and thanks to the advent of multi-track tapes, 4 song sessions disappeared and labels were generally recording less material. Thus they were leaving less in the can than they had done in the previous decade

I don't know where you're getting 'misguided beliefs' from, unless you've actually heard every unreleased PIR track and can say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it's all killer, no filler and should be released without further delay. Quite a lot of unreleased material from that decade and later (not just PIR, I should stress) almost certainly stayed in the vault for the very good reason that it is inferior in some way to the released stuff.

Maybe the singer had a cold or laryngitis on the day of a session, maybe they just weren't feeling the tune, maybe the track was shelved in anticipation of some overdubbed strings and horns that never happened, maybe the artist, producer or arranger fell out with the label over contractual or royalty matters and the label causing tracks to be held back while matters resolved (or not, as the case may be) - there are all manner of reasons why things stay in a vault and, in my experience at least, 'to annoy UK record collectors' is seldom at the top of any US record executives' list...

Inferior quality repertoire does little to 'enhance the undoubted reputation of the artists in my experience. Most singers and musicians only want to be shown in what they percieve to be their best light, and you would be surprised to learn how many are actually not terribly grateful at all that the Ace's and Demon's of this world want to exhume what they quite often regard as worthless rejects.

I'm not having a pop, really I'm not, but you're only seeing your view of what is really a very big picture that should be looked at from every available angle. I also think you've misunderstood Ian's earlier point about decaying tapes. During the 1970s, most record companies - and particularly black-owned ones, it seems - used a kind of Ampex tape stock that was unstable in its composition, although nobody (not even Apmex) knew that at the time. It was only later on, when reels of tape were pulled to digitise their contents for the CD market, that these Ampex tapes needed to be baked in a kiln, sometimes for several days, to shop them shedding oxide or sticking while they were revolving.

Given that it takes a lot of time, and cost a fair few bob, for a reel of tape to be baked, you can perhaps understand why some record companies are not prepared to put too much time and sink too much investment into baking multitracks of unissued material that may, at the end of the day, yield nothing releaseable...

Ironically, tapes from the 60s and earlier tend to be much better preserved than their 80s and 80s counterparts for that very reason. Digging out and copying a 60s session tape is a walk in the park by comparison.

Hope I've managed to provide a bit of helpful insight here. I'm not necessarily defending the actions of companies who sit on unreleased catalogue for what often seems - to an ooutside observer - like no reason at all. But I can often see their point and I'm always willing to accept that they might have one...

Cheers,

TONY

[Guest veep1296]

Saw this on another site and though I would share it with you all. The Building that houses the old Philadelphia International Records studio and offices caught fire today, see link to channel 3 news Philadelphia

https://cbs3.com/loca....2.1508812.html

Dave

Some of G&H stuff is here at Masterworks (Pete Humphreys) that was Frankford Wayne Mastering....

The Broad St Studios about 4 years ago

[Ian Dewhirst]

There's also enough mixed down repertoire for a complete Patti LaBelle 'Live' album - all that got released was her stupendous version of "If You Don't Know Me By Now".

I seem to recall seeing a lot of unreleased bits and pieces from around the time that MFSB Mk. 1 defected from G&H to become the Salsoul Orchestra. I suspect that at least some of that never got released at the time because the 'renegade' musicians and arrangers would have had to get paid if it had. This is just a theory of mine, but it would seem to hold water...

Also when Sigma Sound closed down they had a wealth of 2" Masters stored there from various companies. They called up Salsoul and asked them if they wanted the Salsoul masters back and Salsoul refused because they didn't want to pay the courier charges for a stack of heavy 2" masters from Philly to New York! To be fair, at the time, Salsoul was defunct and no one could see a future in reissues at that point.

Several years later, Tom Moulton got a call out of the blue and was asked if he wanted to purchase some Salsoul 2" masters for $500 each. He managed to get "Dr Love" and "Let No Man Put Asunder" - First Choice and I think "Love Sensation" - Loleatta Holloway back but the seller disappeared as quickly as he'd sprung up. So no one knows if those original Salsoul masters that were junked by Sigma are still around or not....

Ian D