Singers /songwrighter

[Guest soulboy]

After reading Mark's topic about if the uk kept american soul alive ,and some interesting replys,i just wondered how pissed off the singer /and song wrighters must get at the high prices some records go for ,when they get zero back for all the hard work ! i know some do or did get on to the odd cd [but that seems to have fell by the way side now] and got a bit back that way, If indeed they did in the end ?

[Djmelismo]

After reading Mark's topic about if the uk kept american soul alive ,and some interesting replys,i just wondered how pissed off the singer /and song wrighters must get at the high prices some records go for ,when they get zero back for all the hard work ! i know some do or did get on to the odd cd [but that seems to have fell by the way side now] and got a bit back that way, If indeed they did in the end ?

You are right of course, nevertheless I also do believe that for those artists that are still alive and well and ambitious there would be ways of somehow capitalising on their "new-found" fame by doing reissues or selling original copies or acetates for big money, making new recordings, setting up websites (possibly with certain sections being password protected and one has to pay to get access to certain exclusive content or services), doing interviews, writing articles, touring (there are soul venues all over the world), getting together with other oldies acts and former label mates to set something up, or why not sue people who have used their material without permission. Some/many of the artists that we herald as heroes aren´t even alive today, and in some cases though alive and well may not actually be aware of the fact that they are big in for instance the UK due to a couple of low-budget 45s they recorded locally 45 years ago. Just doing a bit of `stream of consciousness" writing here, inspired by your original post, hope you don´t mind, you obviously spawned something here...LOL...

[boba]

After reading Mark's topic about if the uk kept american soul alive ,and some interesting replys,i just wondered how pissed off the singer /and song wrighters must get at the high prices some records go for ,when they get zero back for all the hard work ! i know some do or did get on to the odd cd [but that seems to have fell by the way side now] and got a bit back that way, If indeed they did in the end ?

even with a CD, people are screwed. if the CD is not a bootleg (which unfortunately it is most of the time, especially coming out of the UK, when it's not on a label like Ace/Kent), the songwriter is actually much less screwed than the artist. The songwriter is entitled to a compulsory rate per song per CD pressed. The artist is not entitled to anything unless they can produce some sort of contract with the original producer saying how much they are owed and under what circumstances (which they never will be able to do, the original producer will always claim that they never made their money back etc.). New US laws about digital streaming and satellite play actually compensate master play and not songwriters (invert the relationship) so if artists sign up at soundexchange.com and their material actually gets a lot of play they actually get some money.

to answer your actual question, though, people I talk to are usually amused / excited about the prices that their records go for. What's frustrating is that when people tell them that their records are getting "play in europe" (ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!!) when they're not and they ask me how they can get money from that and I have to explain that their records are not getting radio play overseas unfortunately. It is hard for people to differentiate between a little bit of nightclub play and a record changing hands for a lot of money and lots of radio play because we don't really have the concept of the first thing over here.

[Guest MBarrett]

I don't know if it's a fair comparison but doesn't this sort of thing happen in all the creative arts.

i.e. just because first editions of certain books start selling for mega money no way the author can complain that he isn't getting a cut.

Loads of painters have sold their works for peanuts or given them away and then find they are worth millions. No share of that for the artist.

This baby just sold for £65million at auction. It would be interesting to know what the sculptor first sold it for.

If it's not a fair comparison - my apologies.

MB

[Guest JIM BARRY]

I don't know if it's a fair comparison but doesn't this sort of thing happen in all the creative arts.

i.e. just because first editions of certain books start selling for mega money no way the author can complain that he isn't getting a cut.

Loads of painters have sold their works for peanuts or given them away and then find they are worth millions. No share of that for the artist.

This baby just sold for £65million at auction. It would be interesting to know what the sculptor first sold it for.

If it's not a fair comparison - my apologies.

MB

I CAN'T BELIEVE A SCULPTURE OF PETER CROUCH WOULD FETCH THAT MUCH

[Guest MBarrett]

I CAN'T BELIEVE A SCULPTURE OF PETER CROUCH WOULD FETCH THAT MUCH

Some of you guys have got quick brains - brilliant!!

MB

[Guest soulboy]

even with a CD, people are screwed. if the CD is not a bootleg (which unfortunately it is most of the time, especially coming out of the UK, when it's not on a label like Ace/Kent), the songwriter is actually much less screwed than the artist. The songwriter is entitled to a compulsory rate per song per CD pressed. The artist is not entitled to anything unless they can produce some sort of contract with the original producer saying how much they are owed and under what circumstances (which they never will be able to do, the original producer will always claim that they never made their money back etc.). New US laws about digital streaming and satellite play actually compensate master play and not songwriters (invert the relationship) so if artists sign up at soundexchange.com and their material actually gets a lot of play they actually get some money.

to answer your actual question, though, people I talk to are usually amused / excited about the prices that their records go for. What's frustrating is that when people tell them that their records are getting "play in europe" (ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!!) when they're not and they ask me how they can get money from that and I have to explain that their records are not getting radio play overseas unfortunately. It is hard for people to differentiate between a little bit of nightclub play and a record changing hands for a lot of money and lots of radio play because we don't really have the concept of the first thing over here.

seems well unfair to me .makes you wonder if the ultimate track is waiting some where to be found ?be it on record or still on some dusty master never to see the light of day ,due to the fact no one gets any money or it would be booted.

[boba]

seems well unfair to me .makes you wonder if the ultimate track is waiting some where to be found ?be it on record or still on some dusty master never to see the light of day ,due to the fact no one gets any money or it would be booted.

it's definitely unfair. even when the record came out, the artist got screwed and only made money off of shows, generally, even if it was a big hit. only the songwriter made some money, possibly. the producer was the person who made the money (again, if it was a hit). and these obscure records are ones that weren't hits where the producers lost money.

[Ady Croasdell]

it's definitely unfair. even when the record came out, the artist got screwed and only made money off of shows, generally, even if it was a big hit. only the songwriter made some money, possibly. the producer was the person who made the money (again, if it was a hit). and these obscure records are ones that weren't hits where the producers lost money.

Only really if the producer was the label owner or licensed it to a biggish label. A lot of the label owners got screwed by distributors too, that's why so many indies had less than ten releases even though some of them may have sold well. There was a scenario where a moderate hit could cost the company more than a flop!

I agree the songwriters are in a much stronger position than the artists and if it's a group forget about it once you split it four or five ways. luckily there are also examples of artists getting good breaks too and enjoying their second time around for what it is. Melvin Davis, Maxine Brown and Dean Parrish all spring to mind and i think the Salt & Pepper guys are tickled pink by the interest in their little Thai pressing.

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

It happens a lot in most music though. an artist dosen't write the song and gets less then someone who writes there songs.

but what joint songwriters they have to share money just like you would being in a band

[Guest soulboy]

Only really if the producer was the label owner or licensed it to a biggish label. A lot of the label owners got screwed by distributors too, that's why so many indies had less than ten releases even though some of them may have sold well. There was a scenario where a moderate hit could cost the company more than a flop!

I agree the songwriters are in a much stronger position than the artists and if it's a group forget about it once you split it four or five ways. luckily there are also examples of artists getting good breaks too and enjoying their second time around for what it is. Melvin Davis, Maxine Brown and Dean Parrish all spring to mind and i think the Salt & Pepper guys are tickled pink by the interest in their little Thai pressing.

You must know more than most ? do you think there is the holy grail still out there waiting to be found ? or are they all known now .