Tim Brown Quote In 96...your Thoughts?

[George G]

I'm from the 'other side'. I figured I'd try to put some legs back on this thread in a conversational manner.

In two places I've lived (Cleveland and Seattle) the most knowledgable people about local music histories have always been people who are from the cities. The person with the most 'preservationist' knowledge of Cleveland soul music was a white Clevelander who started seeing R&B bands in the early 1960s and wrote about some of that in local papers. Unfortunately he was murdered many years ago, but I've read some of what he wrote and it's pretty amazing detail. There's many layers to the 'guardianship' of culture, and records are only a fraction. Music in the 1960s and even more so the 1970s was more about live shows than the records. Records were often nothing more than a way of padding the resume and getting better gigs, unless you were one of the few percent that actually got some substantial airplay and sales. I've been 'schooled' about Cleveland soul music venues from some people who were major figures there and as I said they talk much more about the live shows, the friendships, the excitement living in the times, the after hours joints, famous artists they saw and met, etc than about their records - if they even had records.

I guess that's one question to ask - do people like Tim Brown*and other people who may fancy themselves as guardians or historians have any interest in soul artists who did not cut any records? Why - or why not?

Just like I'll never understand what 'Swinging London' was like in 1966, You (and I) can't understand what Lee/Miles or E.105th and Euclid in Cleveland (or Jackson Street in Seattle) was like.

That's one way of looking at it.

OTOH, I see the reactions of people when they learn their old non-hit records of 30-45 years ago have been played and enjoyed by 1000s of people they've never met. That in of itself is a true 'real life' moment that carries a lot of power. Had there not been a Northern Soul scene, it would never have happened.

*Being not of the scene, the only thing I know about Tim Brown is from the price guide, so I am a blank slate when it comes to his level of expertise with this topic.

[Ian Dewhirst]

I'm from the 'other side'. I figured I'd try to put some legs back on this thread in a conversational manner.

In two places I've lived (Cleveland and Seattle) the most knowledgable people about local music histories have always been people who are from the cities. The person with the most 'preservationist' knowledge of Cleveland soul music was a white Clevelander who started seeing R&B bands in the early 1960s and wrote about some of that in local papers. Unfortunately he was murdered many years ago, but I've read some of what he wrote and it's pretty amazing detail. There's many layers to the 'guardianship' of culture, and records are only a fraction. Music in the 1960s and even more so the 1970s was more about live shows than the records. Records were often nothing more than a way of padding the resume and getting better gigs, unless you were one of the few percent that actually got some substantial airplay and sales. I've been 'schooled' about Cleveland soul music venues from some people who were major figures there and as I said they talk much more about the live shows, the friendships, the excitement living in the times, the after hours joints, famous artists they saw and met, etc than about their records - if they even had records.

I guess that's one question to ask - do people like Tim Brown*and other people who may fancy themselves as guardians or historians have any interest in soul artists who did not cut any records? Why - or why not?

Just like I'll never understand what 'Swinging London' was like in 1966, You (and I) can't understand what Lee/Miles or E.105th and Euclid in Cleveland (or Jackson Street in Seattle) was like.

That's one way of looking at it.

OTOH, I see the reactions of people when they learn their old non-hit records of 30-45 years ago have been played and enjoyed by 1000s of people they've never met. That in of itself is a true 'real life' moment that carries a lot of power. Had there not been a Northern Soul scene, it would never have happened.

*Being not of the scene, the only thing I know about Tim Brown is from the price guide, so I am a blank slate when it comes to his level of expertise with this topic.

Hi George,

I think one of the reasons that records are so revered over here is that often this was the only access we had to most U.S. Soul music from the 60's and 70's, being the other side of the Atlantic and all. This could be a key reason why attitudes differ. It's not like any of these acts were on our doorstep and U.S. air travel was out of reach to most people until the late 70's, so records were pretty much the only option. Whenever U.S. acts came over here to perform they'd generally get a fantastic reception, often much better than in their native homeland. In fact many acts moved over here because they were more popular, Edwin Starr, Tommy Hunt and Jimmy Ruffin being a few obvious examples. Others like J.J. Barnes came over here because there was only ever any demand in the U.K. Seeing him break down in tears when the audience sang along to "Please Let Me In" when he performed at Keighley Variety Club in the early 70's was one of the defining moments of my youth.

In short, maybe the lack of easy access to most Soul music and regular live gigs could be a key factor in the Brits continuing obsession with U.S. Black music. One of those 'the grass is greener on the other side' type scenarios. Conversely, the fact that Soul music was easily available to seek out to U.S. natives throughout the 60's and 70's may have meant that it was undervalued by the indiginous population?

Additionally, some people actually prefer recordings more than live performances. I do for sure. I see the finished recording as being the end result of a lot of factors which created a completed piece of work, whereas I tend to see live performances in a different way altogether - more of a spontaneous situation. As a lover of thousands of records, I've seldom seen a live concert which did justice to the original recording - I can name 'em on one hand actually. To each their own I guess.....

And Tim Brown is about as obsessive as it's possible to get and is really a lover of Deep Soul more than Northern as it happens. He knows his stuff and would quite happily spend his life listening to Deep Soul whilst visiting every Zoo known to man. Strange but true.

Another way of looking at it, is that maybe many of us don't treasure what's on our own doorsteps. I'm not too bothered about the history of dry-stone walling, coal mines or native North England folk music. All I ever wanted to listen to was mostly American Soul music from about '67 onwards because it triggered something within me that I wanted. By the same token, some of the most fanatical collectors of UK music that I've ever met also happen to come from thousands of miles away, so maybe there's something in the whole proximity angle after all.

Interesting thread this. Probably one of the first times it's been properly discussed.

Ian D