Shirley Lawson Bootlegged

[Pete S]

Shirley Lawson - One More Chance - booted on backbeat demo, extremely accurate counterfeit, done by whoever has done these r&b boots in the last 2 months. be careful if buying an original.

[grant]

Shirley Lawson - One More Chance - booted on backbeat demo, extremely accurate counterfeit, done by whoever has done these r&b boots in the last 2 months. be careful if buying an original.

pretty sure there was one on ebay yesterday pete, buy it now, if i remember it was about 8 or 9 quid?

[paultp]

Buy scratched records!

[Daz Mc]

Your right Pete , theyre dead on , i nearly got fooled myself , but thought 8.99 was too cheap , then realised they were counterfeits.

[Pete S]

Your right Pete , theyre dead on , i nearly got fooled myself , but thought 8.99 was too cheap , then realised they were counterfeits.

I nearly bought the ray Charles "Don't need no doctor" at the record fair last month, it looked spot on. They are from a set of about 25 counterfeits which seem to be mainly late 50's rhythm & blues, I think Charles Sheffield is among them as well.

[Spook]

Looks like its also booted as an issue on the A Side.

ebay link

Quick look it seems the D in 'Don Music Co.' is touching the right hand drumstick, anyone else held one etc?

The same seller is selling them with "The Star' picture and then others with a "One More Chance" picture the Star side does not have the

PROMOTIONAL NOT FOR SALE on the right and (XXX) on the left .

Spook

Edited January 25, 2010 by spook

[pikeys dog]

One of the best things about collecting rare R&B records was the fact that they had slipped under the radar of the bootleggers, so with the odd exception (Screaming Joe Neal, Contours on Motown) you were pretty safe buying blind.

With this spate of look-a-likes, that's now gone out of the window.

[Ernie Andrews]

So would anyone agree that - with todays technology you can nearly or almost identically reprocate a record from the 60s/70s? in all its facets label vynil stamps etc?

[Sebastian]

So would anyone agree that - with todays technology you can nearly or almost identically reprocate a record from the 60s/70s? in all its facets label vynil stamps etc?

No, I don't think many will agree with you on that.

You will not be able to find the right kind of plastic for the vinyl, the new mastering will be different, the paper for the label will be different, the printing style will be different etc.

The only counterfeits of 60s records that have even come close to look and sound convincing I have ever seen were produced during the early 70s.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Sebastian

[Ian Dewhirst]

No, I don't think many will agree with you on that.

You will not be able to find the right kind of plastic for the vinyl, the new mastering will be different, the paper for the label will be different, the printing style will be different etc.

The only counterfeits of 60s records that have even come close to look and sound convincing I have ever seen were produced during the early 70s.

Yep, I go along with that. Pretty much impossible to accurately replicate a 60's record these days. The printing on the labels is the main giveaway.............

Ian D

[Premium Stuff]

So these have just recently surfaced then?

Wouldn't mind seeing a scan of both sides of the boot posted up here - plus matrix details.

One of my top fave sounds this one - have an original promo and I could scan up and post the dead wax marks for it, if someone can do the boot.

Cheers

Richard

[pikeys dog]

So would anyone agree that - with todays technology you can nearly or almost identically reprocate a record from the 60s/70s? in all its facets label vynil stamps etc?

No, but as stated - you can no longer buy the titles "blind".

Ray Charles is the perfect example - it's not an expensive record, and at first glance it looks pretty close to the original - but upon closer inspection the logo is missing some of the correct colour.

But if you didn't have the knowledge of what the label should look like, or if you were in a poorly lit venue then it's probably close enough to fool.

[De-to]

im sure e-bay seller,valleyofsouls,is a soul-source member,

[Cunnie]

Shirley Lawson - One More Chance - booted on backbeat demo, extremely accurate counterfeit, done by whoever has done these r&b boots in the last 2 months. be careful if buying an original.

Thanks for the post Pete

Exactly what this part of the forum is for & hopefully it'll save any members getting stung.

One of the best things about collecting rare R&B records was the fact that they had slipped under the radar of the bootleggers, so with the odd exception (Screaming Joe Neal, Contours on Motown) you were pretty safe buying blind.

With this spate of look-a-likes, that's now gone out of the window.

Only one option left now Joe.

You'll have to get into 2k Banging Soulful House

So would anyone agree that - with todays technology you can nearly or almost identically reprocate a record from the 60s/70s? in all its facets label vynil stamps etc?

Very good point & I'm with you on this.

Don't beleive for 1 minute that it's impossible to copy something from the 60's with todays technology & how do we know that it hasn't happened already?

[Pete S]

im sure e-bay seller,valleyofsouls,is a soul-source member,

Valley of Souls is Mick Smith but he's selling it not making it...

[dthedrug]

Shirley Lawson - One More Chance - booted on back beat demo, extremely accurate counterfeit, done by whoever has done these r&b boots in the last 2 months. be careful if buying an original.

Hi Pete that's the second time its been booted the 1st is on UK SOUL CITY by Dave Godin, as he had only the rights to use the Star and that was for LP use only, Hence it,s Rarity as it was recalled within 12 days by PHILIPS, and all the copies that you see come from Soul City Shop, just when all things started to happen for him, This issue was the start of the demise? of the label, Sue and Island had been getting away with LP only trax for a few years Dave tried it once and got caught out, if you take a look at UK releases after that release and only the PALMER BROS issued dodgy records allegedly through there Copy Control & Jet-star set up? DAVE

Edited February 2, 2010 by dthedrug

[Ian Dewhirst]

Very good point & I'm with you on this.

Don't beleive for 1 minute that it's impossible to copy something from the 60's with todays technology & how do we know that it hasn't happened already?

Well unless you can drag up a printing process from 40-50 years ago with all the attendent machinery (i.e. none digital in any way), find someone who knows all the original processes, source the type of paper that was used for labels back then, replicate the artwork precisely and then get the exact same stamper to put the labels on the record I very much doubt it!

And that's just the labels.

As for the type of vinyl they used back then, it simply can't be done anymore. The last time I checked back in the early 00's, there were only two suppliers of vinyl pellets left and they were both in the former Eastern bloc countries.

It's not that a pretty close copy couldn't be made - it could. But you'll never be able to exactly replicate a record from 40-50 years ago. The correct materials are simply no longer available. And even if by some fluke you got around all the above it would cost you a small fortune in buy in the expertise to copy an original - probably more than the cost of the original record!

You're from industrial town Mart. You should know that LOL.....

Ian D

[Pete S]

Hi Pete that's the second time its been booted the 1st is on UK SOUL CITY by Dave Godin, as he had only the rights to use the Star and that was for LP use only, Hence it,s Rarity as it was recalled within 12 days by PHILIPS, and all the copies that you see come from Soul City Shop, just when all things started to happen for him, This issue was the start of the demise? of the label, Sue and Island had been getting away with LP only trax for a few years Dave tried it once and got caught out, if you take a look at UK releases after that release and only the PALMER BROS issued dodgy records allegedly through there Copy Control & Jet-star set up? DAVE

Very interesting Dave, but I have to disagree with you on one thing, I don't think it's rare on Soul City, I've had half a dozen copies and until 5 years back, used to sell them for 25-30 quid a go. It's just oen of those thats been hyped up.

[Oldfeet]

I have no real world experience of the record creation process but I'd assumed that creating almost identical boots of original records was achievable.

Mind you that was with some BIG assumptions.

Is it not possible to use scrap vinyl records originally produced in the 60's as the source for the 'booted record' vinyl instead of using new vinyl pellets?

If you used an actual 'mint' record release as the master to create the stamps wouldn't that include matrix numbers, correct run in and out lengths?

Then use the latest laser copiers to produce the labels, if 'villains' can source the paper to print fake currency then I'm sure that getting paper similar to the original paper used on a 60's record label is less difficult.

I expect you would end up with a boot that all but a handful of the most knowledgeable record buyers would be able to recognise as fake.

Didn't the american 'mafia' produce millions of 'boots' through the 50's and 60's that are sometimes accepted as originals?

Not that I'll be going into the boot industry

[Ian Dewhirst]

I have no real world experience of the record creation process but I'd assumed that creating almost identical boots of original records was achievable.

Mind you that was with some BIG assumptions.

Is it not possible to use scrap vinyl records originally produced in the 60's as the source for the 'booted record' vinyl instead of using new vinyl pellets?

If you used an actual 'mint' record release as the master to create the stamps wouldn't that include matrix numbers, correct run in and out lengths?

Then use the latest laser copiers to produce the labels, if 'villains' can source the paper to print fake currency then I'm sure that getting paper similar to the original paper used on a 60's record label is less difficult.

I expect you would end up with a boot that all but a handful of the most knowledgeable record buyers would be able to recognise as fake.

Didn't the american 'mafia' produce millions of 'boots' through the 50's and 60's that are sometimes accepted as originals?

Not that I'll be going into the boot industry

It's just the reality of having to go through all that trouble to produce a boot which may sell a few hundred. Not worth it.

If you think about it, trying to replicate an original 60's record these days is akin to trying to replicate an original painting. There are just too many experts in this field for anyone to get away with it. If a painting is worth a few hundred grand then there's a real incentive to have a go but a record that's worth a grand or so probably doesn't justify the trouble IMO....

Ian D

[Paul Shirley]

I have no real world experience of the record creation process but I'd assumed that creating almost identical boots of original records was achievable.

Mind you that was with some BIG assumptions.

Is it not possible to use scrap vinyl records originally produced in the 60's as the source for the 'booted record' vinyl instead of using new vinyl pellets?

If you used an actual 'mint' record release as the master to create the stamps wouldn't that include matrix numbers, correct run in and out lengths?

Then use the latest laser copiers to produce the labels, if 'villains' can source the paper to print fake currency then I'm sure that getting paper similar to the original paper used on a 60's record label is less difficult.

I expect you would end up with a boot that all but a handful of the most knowledgeable record buyers would be able to recognise as fake.

Didn't the american 'mafia' produce millions of 'boots' through the 50's and 60's that are sometimes accepted as originals?

Not that I'll be going into the boot industry

yep i agree with this as what about the farther and son team from bolton all over the new's a few months ago ? they fooled all the top arty farty experts including sutherby's and the british museum producing fake replica's of art sculpture you name it they can do it' all from a shed at the botom of the garden and they did it for year's and we are talking real expencive things over a milion pounds worth easy . am holding an old boot in my hand the vinyl is crap with loads of imperfections so i compared it to my original of delites love and you would be a good un if you could tel the diference in the vinyl as this also is done with the waste vinyl or somthing and full of imperfections just like the vinyl on this old boot .the boot isnt of the same record but the vinyl looks exactly the same . and i cant see the label being that ard to do'

[michael-j]

Is it not possible to use scrap vinyl records originally produced in the 60's as the source for the 'booted record' vinyl instead of using new vinyl pellets?

no. you can add some ground up vinyl to the mix, but not use it entirely. and the higher the percentage of non-virgin vinyl, the higher the surface noise (one of the many reasons why many 45s will never sound Mint)

[Iancsloft]

Mr Levine fooled quite a few well known people with his FOUR VANDALS

[Iancsloft]

One very well known icon on the Northern scene got fooled with D S counterfiet of Cant get over these memories

[Ernie Andrews]

500 copies of a £20 record might not be cost effective

But 500 copies of a £300 certainly is especially if you decide to do more than one Tune you could be talking in the Hunfreds of thousands of pounds etc

If fakers can do it with antiques then Im sure some can do it with records

Just look at the Guinness items (Repro-fakes) complete with Carlton stamps- The principal is the same

Same kind of Moulds/ Clay/Paint and stamps - Weather them a bit to make them look old and hey presto

AS this scene is now worldwide the demand is even greater and the market for boots even larger.

Im not yet convinced it cant be done!

[Paul Shirley]

wait until the chinese get on to the northern scene then we are doomed!! kwev loberts of taiwan

Edited January 26, 2010 by steptoe

[Crumb]

500 copies of a £20 record might not be cost effective

But 500 copies of a £300 certainly is especially if you decide to do more than one Tune you could be talking in the Hunfreds of thousands of pounds etc

If fakers can do it with antiques then Im sure some can do it with records

Just look at the Guinness items (Repro-fakes) complete with Carlton stamps- The principal is the same

Same kind of Moulds/ Clay/Paint and stamps - Weather them a bit to make them look old and hey presto

AS this scene is now worldwide the demand is even greater and the market for boots even larger.

Im not yet convinced it cant be done!

Yes, but the forgers had got the original moulds, that would be like the bootleggers having the original stampers. And even then they were caught out because the colours weren't an exact match to the originals.

[Oldfeet]

Yes, but the forgers had got the original moulds, that would be like the bootleggers having the original stampers. And even then they were caught out because the colours weren't an exact match to the originals.

I know I might not understand the production of vinyl records 100% but surely the vinyl record is just a 'positive' copy of the original 'negative' metal stampers, so to recreate the stampers you can use an original vinyl record in a reverse process to create new stampers, so the bootleggers don't need the original stampers, which were probably trashed after use and thrown into a bin.

Never mind bootlegging £300 records, something popular like 'Seven Day Fool' that goes for around £50 and is always a popular sale if you booted and sold 500 of them you could take £25,000 ...... I'm really surprised there aren't more boots and really glad that there aren't and I'm very thank full for this forum and the experts on it that highlight the boots when they find them as well as JM's and Tim's guides.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Mr Levine fooled quite a few well known people with his FOUR VANDALS

T'wasn't a boot though Ian. There was nothing to compare it to was there?

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

I know I might not understand the production of vinyl records 100% but surely the vinyl record is just a 'positive' copy of the original 'negative' metal stampers, so to recreate the stampers you can use an original vinyl record in a reverse process to create new stampers, so the bootleggers don't need the original stampers, which were probably trashed after use and thrown into a bin.

Never mind bootlegging £300 records, something popular like 'Seven Day Fool' that goes for around £50 and is always a popular sale if you booted and sold 500 of them you could take £25,000 ...... I'm really surprised there aren't more boots and really glad that there aren't and I'm very thank full for this forum and the experts on it that highlight the boots when they find them as well as JM's and Tim's guides.

No, it doesn't work like that. In order to make an exact copy of the original pressing you need the original stampers. Stampers have their own individual imprints so anyone who's even halfway sussed, owns a genuine original or who has access to the price guides should be able to tell the difference. I can probably tell 99% of fakes without too much trouble.......

That's not to say I haven't been almost fooled on occasion but there again I don't spend much time examining run-out grooves and dead wax these days.......

Ian D

[Godzilla]

I know I might not understand the production of vinyl records 100% but surely the vinyl record is just a 'positive' copy of the original 'negative' metal stampers, so to recreate the stampers you can use an original vinyl record in a reverse process to create new stampers...

Have go. Take a record and a lump of metal and then try and hammer a copy from the vinyl into the metal. If you're not making much of an imprint maybe it would be worth heating them up before knocking them together.

Sounds foolproof!

[Ian Dewhirst]

Have go. Take a record and a lump of metal and then try and hammer a copy from the vinyl into the metal. If you're not making much of an imprint maybe it would be worth heating them up before knocking them together.

Sounds foolproof!

Damn. I just wrecked a Don Gardner, a Del Larks and a Billy Woods trying that. If Oldfeet could explain how one achieves this it may save me a few quid...........

Ian D

[Oldfeet]

Damn. I just wrecked a Don Gardner, a Del Larks and a Billy Woods trying that. If Oldfeet could explain how one achieves this it may save me a few quid...........

Ian D

Sure, you use the vinyl record, which is a more robust material than the original acetate/lacquer master from which the original stampers were created, and put it through the same traditional vinyl record creation process by silvering it and then electroplating it with a nickel alloy before creating the 'mothers' to create new stampers which should be a perfect copy. The assumption being you use the best/mint copies of the record you can find, at least two, one for each side of the record. I'm not sure of the final quality but with the differences found in genuine records because of different vinyl mixes, poor stampers and actual playing it might be as good as an original.

As for using the 'original stampers' in one of your previous posts, I didn't know any pressing plant kept them, they'd be long gone and useless, did you mean using the original 'mothers', which might have been kept, to make new stampers?

The vinyl record gets wrecked in the process but you have new stampers to create as many copies as they can before they to fail, I've been told that's anything between 500 and 2000 depending on the quality you require.

I'm not sure why either of you would want to hit metal covering a record with hammers , maybe you're stupid ?

It would be interesting to find out from a pressing company to see if they could do it in theory

[Samson]

So who's posting the Shirley lawson Boot Label scan? Lets document the differences .

[Pete S]

Interestingly, the Shirley Lawson boot isn't aimed at the Northern scene; it's part of a batch of r&b boots/lookalikes but I don't really know who they are aimed at. The people behind it are the same ones who did all the UK label psych and freakbeat repros about 4 years ago and are not on the Northern scene.

[Cunnie]

Well unless you can drag up a printing process from 40-50 years ago with all the attendent machinery (i.e. none digital in any way), find someone who knows all the original processes, source the type of paper that was used for labels back then, replicate the artwork precisely and then get the exact same stamper to put the labels on the record I very much doubt it!

And that's just the labels.

As for the type of vinyl they used back then, it simply can't be done anymore. The last time I checked back in the early 00's, there were only two suppliers of vinyl pellets left and they were both in the former Eastern bloc countries.

It's not that a pretty close copy couldn't be made - it could. But you'll never be able to exactly replicate a record from 40-50 years ago. The correct materials are simply no longer available. And even if by some fluke you got around all the above it would cost you a small fortune in buy in the expertise to copy an original - probably more than the cost of the original record!

You're from industrial town Mart. You should know that LOL.....

Ian D

Thing is though Ian they were pretty dam close to perfect copy's way back in the 70's with things like the Anderson Brothers & Jimmy Radcliffe (Musicor) so I'm sure it would be far easier now.

Lets say for example a mint William Powell appears on the bay & goes for something like 5k who's going to know how real it is as there's nothing to compare it to. Whats the chance of 2 folks being in the same room to be able to check it out & even if they are slightly different who's to say which one is real & which is the fake. There are plenty of other things out there similar that this could happen with to make it worthwhile. Things like The Combinations & Margret Little spring to mind & who's to say it ain't happened already.

Just look how many original A&M copy's of God Save The Queen - Sex Pistols there are on popsike. Probably more copy's on there than were actually pressed.

Only a few months ago a couple of Lester Tiptons cropped up. Not suggesting for a moment they were fakes but suppose they were, the winners ain't got anything to compare it to unless they were lucky or stupid enough to buy it twice.

There are other scenario's too Ian. Look at all the copy's of Ain't Gonna Run - Royal Esquires that have suddenly appeared. This was thought to be a one off for quite a while & changed hands for vast amounts of cash but now there are mint unplayed copy's everywhere & all supposedly from the same source. Again not suggesting they ain't real but would anyone be that suprised if the guy wasn't pressing them up somewhere along with all the other stuff on the Prix label?

Industrial town? Sadly not any more Ian or I'd be working today fella.

[Sebastian]

Thing is though Ian they were pretty dam close to perfect copy's way back in the 70's with things like the Anderson Brothers & Jimmy Radcliffe (Musicor) so I'm sure it would be far easier now.

It's the other way around. It was much easier to manufacture a convincing counterfeit during the early-to-mid 70s because the production methods were similar to those during the 60s. But despite trying really hard, the bootleggers always got something wrong (the number of turns in the run-out or run-in grooves, the width of the playing surface, volume of the sound etc.).

Another point is that a record that is only available on styrene quite simply can't be counterfeited these days, because there are no pressing plants left that make styrene records.

[Sebastian]

Just look how many original A&M copy's of God Save The Queen - Sex Pistols there are on popsike. Probably more copy's on there than were actually pressed.

25000 copies were pressed.

Most of them were destroyed, but it is believed that about 100-200 copies slipped out.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Sebastian

[Guest Dave Turner]

Thing is though Ian they were pretty dam close to perfect copy's way back in the 70's with things like the Anderson Brothers & Jimmy Radcliffe (Musicor) so I'm sure it would be far easier now.

Lets say for example a mint William Powell appears on the bay & goes for something like 5k who's going to know how real it is as there's nothing to compare it to. Whats the chance of 2 folks being in the same room to be able to check it out & even if they are slightly different who's to say which one is real & which is the fake. There are plenty of other things out there similar that this could happen with to make it worthwhile. Things like The Combinations & Margret Little spring to mind & who's to say it ain't happened already.

Just look how many original A&M copy's of God Save The Queen - Sex Pistols there are on popsike. Probably more copy's on there than were actually pressed.

Only a few months ago a couple of Lester Tiptons cropped up. Not suggesting for a moment they were fakes but suppose they were, the winners ain't got anything to compare it to unless they were lucky or stupid enough to buy it twice.

There are other scenario's too Ian. Look at all the copy's of Ain't Gonna Run - Royal Esquires that have suddenly appeared. This was thought to be a one off for quite a while & changed hands for vast amounts of cash but now there are mint unplayed copy's everywhere & all supposedly from the same source. Again not suggesting they ain't real but would anyone be that suprised if the guy wasn't pressing them up somewhere along with all the other stuff on the Prix label?

Industrial town? Sadly not any more Ian or I'd be working today fella.

Ian, take look at this Royal Esquires on the Bay - item 220544363119

Selling quite a few on Prix and also Tammy. All in multiples and Mint. Ok, could have come by boxes of old warehoused Mint stock and could possibly be kosher.

Another give away is the multiple copies of Towanda Barnes.

What make me uneasy though is all the other listings such as the doo wop stuff that seller mostly openly states they are reissues (boots) and on coloured wax with comments such as

EXTREMELY RARE REPRO DOO WOP 45. THESE ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND NOW SOME PRESSED IN THE EARLY 1970'S.. VERY SOUGHT AFTER BY COLLECTORS. THE GUY WHO PUT THESE OUT BACK WHEN IS A LEGEND IN THE HOBBY.

GREAT NORTHERN SOUL 45 "JOHNNY WATSON" ON THE REDWAX VALISE LABEL# 6913 NOT MANY PRESSED (UNRELEASED TRACK NEVER ON VINYL) (PRESSED ABOUT 12 YEARS A GO BY OWNER)

Edited January 27, 2010 by Dave Turner

[Cunnie]

It's the other way around. It was much easier to manufacture a convincing counterfeit during the early-to-mid 70s because the production methods were similar to those during the 60s. But despite trying really hard, the bootleggers always got something wrong (the number of turns in the run-out or run-in grooves, the width of the playing surface, volume of the sound etc.).

Another point is that a record that is only available on styrene quite simply can't be counterfeited these days, because there are no pressing plants left that make styrene records.

Good reply's Sebastian but how do we know they 'ALWAYS' got something wrong?

What if just the once they got it bang on. We could all be sitting on them in our collections & be none the wiser. Look at all the Dwight Franklins that have suddenly turned up for a start. Something strange going on there.

Suppose a new discovery was copied for example something like a top DJ's cover up.

Who would know?

25000 copies were pressed.

Most of them were destroyed, but it is believed that about 100-200 copies slipped out.

Thought it was only about 25 that leaked out but not sure.

No expert on Punk but would be interesting to know how many real v copy's there are though.

[Pete S]

Good reply's Sebastian but how do we know they 'ALWAYS' got something wrong?

What if just the once they got it bang on. We could all be sitting on them in our collections & be none the wiser. Look at all the Dwight Franklins that have suddenly turned up for a start. Something strange going on there.

Suppose a new discovery was copied for example something like a top DJ's cover up.

Who would know?

Thought it was only about 25 that leaked out but not sure.

No expert on Punk but would be interesting to know how many real v copy's there are though.

yes you're right, 25 or less, the other copies on the market were given to A & M staff in retirment packages etc.

[Sebastian]

Look at all the Dwight Franklins that have suddenly turned up for a start. Something strange going on there.

Dwight Franklin recently pressed up new copies of it.

The recently pressed copies has got the matrix etchings scratched out.

More info here:

[Ian Dewhirst]

Thing is though Ian they were pretty dam close to perfect copy's way back in the 70's with things like the Anderson Brothers & Jimmy Radcliffe (Musicor) so I'm sure it would be far easier now.

The Anderson Bros boot didn't fool me for a milisecond Mart. I had an early original and I could tell immediately plus the quality was abysmal I seem to remember..........

The only ones that ever had me perplexed were a Richard 'Popcorn' Wylie "Rosemary What Happened" white promo on Karen which I swear was a boot (but I can't remember anyone booting it) which I found in the Carnaby Street indoor market for 75p in the late 80's (which just doesn't seem right) and a couple of MGM promos - The Embers, The Velours and Lou Roberts I think, which I can't remember being booted but which sure looked like boots to me.

But I concurr with Sebastian. It would be nigh-on impossible to boot anything 100% accurately these days and hope that it would fool everyone. Not a chance in hell in my view. Too many sniffer dogs focussing on every minute detail!

And for the record, the one which I thought was a definite boot from the word go was "Wee Ooh I'll Let It Be You Babe" by Louise Lewis (Miss L.L.). It looked like a boot in the first place and they all came from Simon so if it was gonna be any boot which had been 'set-up' from the word go, I'd say it was that one.

Ian D

[pikeys dog]

Ian, take look at this Royal Esquires on the Bay - item 220544363119

Selling quite a few on Prix and also Tammy. All in multiples and Mint. Ok, could have come by boxes of old warehoused Mint stock and could possibly be kosher.

Another give away is the multiple copies of Towanda Barnes.

What make me uneasy though is all the other listings such as the doo wop stuff that seller mostly openly states they are reissues (boots) and on coloured wax with comments such as

EXTREMELY RARE REPRO DOO WOP 45. THESE ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND NOW SOME PRESSED IN THE EARLY 1970'S.. VERY SOUGHT AFTER BY COLLECTORS. THE GUY WHO PUT THESE OUT BACK WHEN IS A LEGEND IN THE HOBBY.

GREAT NORTHERN SOUL 45 "JOHNNY WATSON" ON THE REDWAX VALISE LABEL# 6913 NOT MANY PRESSED (UNRELEASED TRACK NEVER ON VINYL) (PRESSED ABOUT 12 YEARS A GO BY OWNER)

Whilst this seller does sell bootlegs/reissues - it is well documented that he turned up the entire Prix label in quantity - including all the shite releases on the label.

The Royal Esquires I've seen all appear to be absolutely 'bob on' - just very new as they hadn't seen the light of day for 30 odd years.

[Guest Dave Turner]

Whilst this seller does sell bootlegs/reissues - it is well documented that he turned up the entire Prix label in quantity - including all the shite releases on the label.

The Royal Esquires I've seen all appear to be absolutely 'bob on' - just very new as they hadn't seen the light of day for 30 odd years.

Thought possibly so, but was wary. As I stated it could have been a warehouse, back of a garage type find. I did note there was no mention of reissue etc with the Prix stuff whereas the seller does openly admit reissue with most of the other items. I'll probably go for a couple of the Prix releases if as you say they're kosher.

Do you have any links at all for seller turning up the quantity, would like to read it if so.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Dave Turner

[pikeys dog]

Thought possibly so, but was wary. As I stated it could have been a warehouse, back of a garage type find. I did note there was no mention of reissue etc with the Prix stuff whereas the seller does openly admit reissue with most of the other items. I'll probably go for a couple of the Prix releases if as you say they're kosher.

Do you have any links at all for seller turning up the quantity, would like to read it if so.

Here's some posts from around the time...

Posted 06 January 2005 - 10:12 PM

john parker, on Jan 6 2005, 04:58 PM, said:

would be interested to see one of the Royal Esquires that has "turned up"- I have an original pre-find copy- it may be interesting to see what is in the run out groove

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've already done this John, they were both identical, just a case of the record turning up in quantity.

Ady.

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 07:41 PM

Soulsville, on Jan 6 2005, 06:39 AM, said:

I'd be interested to see that email. I'm sure someone on this site contacted him and he stated that he bought the remaining stock of Fab Vegas and Prix.

Did he definately tell you they were re-presses????

Cheers,

Jamie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I contacted him and questioned him about the validity of The Royal Esquires and Frederick Hymes The prix stuff he said he bought directly from the owner to be honest he has a lot of prix stuff for sale thats not worth pressing so that might be kosha He also said that the Fab Vegas stuff he got directly form the owner Both times he wouldn't reveal the quantities but he said there wasn't a lot I then asked him about the potential for "copying" this stuff He said the task is practically impossible not only do you have to have acess to the masters and they have to be in the right condition but the right type of vinyl and the right type of paper He said the type of paper they used in the 6t's has not been available for a long time it was found to have toxic problems He then said he will make avialable custom presings of choons that "northern" collectors know are repro's things like the Ringleaders All Of My Life (which to be honest i have no problem with for the simple reason it's never been released therefor totally un acesible Isnt it a 1 off acetate) Obviously he probably figures that if we are worth our salt we should know that Towanda Barnes/Ohio Players is really only available on the Trip album Although someone mentioned on Soultalk (might have been Chalkie) that the O Players did cut love slipped on a Compass acetate. Which makes sense when you think about it "cos Searling never played Love Slipped from an Lp it was a c/u 45

DJ

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[Steve G]

Thought possibly so, but was wary. As I stated it could have been a warehouse, back of a garage type find. I did note there was no mention of reissue etc with the Prix stuff whereas the seller does openly admit reissue with most of the other items. I'll probably go for a couple of the Prix releases if as you say they're kosher.

Do you have any links at all for seller turning up the quantity, would like to read it if so.

Yep we've documented this one before as PD says. They found clem martin the label owner and he had a garage full of his old stuff, good and bad. He has since died and his widow found some other stuff - acetates etc. Sometimes it does happen that way.

Interesting story on Dave godin and Shirley Lawson - thanks DtheD

[pikeys dog]

More....

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Sean Hampsey

Massive everywhere

Group: Mint

Posts: 4,847

Joined: 18-November 05

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 11:48 PM

soulman1964, on May 16 2007, 01:26 AM, said:

i think they are both the same, delt with both of them in the past....same paypal address, also look at listings for royal esquires, exactly the same

Joe & Richie are big buddies.

They both sell 'each others' stock.

Spoke to Joe on Richie's Phone... so they are not one and the same person (although you never actually SEE them in the one place at the one time ).

Richie is one of the USA's most 'respected' Record dealers.

Loves the high life... but a bit of a pain in the ass (IMO).

All the Prix estate ended up with them and the Frederick Hymes 45's came from them also.

The store in Vegas is all top Dollar. You get the impression he doesn't actually want to sell anything... but he does have some very nice titles.

Would be surprised if they've 'ceased operations' online voluntarily though!

Sean

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Edited January 27, 2010 by pikeys dog

[Marc Forrest]

One of the best things about collecting rare R&B records was the fact that they had slipped under the radar of the bootleggers, so with the odd exception (Screaming Joe Neal, Contours on Motown) you were pretty safe buying blind.

With this spate of look-a-likes, that's now gone out of the window.

Although the amount of recently bootlegged R&B, early Soul, Titty shakers or what ever you wanna call them 45s is almost frightening I believe that the amount of re-pressed and booted Jump Blues, DooWop and R&B 45s from the ealy Seventies to mid eighties still is much bigger.

It never was safe to buy blind if you didn`t do your homework IMO.

Marc

[Marc Forrest]

Interestingly, the Shirley Lawson boot isn't aimed at the Northern scene; it's part of a batch of r&b boots/lookalikes but I don't really know who they are aimed at.

At a wild gues they are mainly aimed at the Funk and R&B crowd, especially the young(er) DJ´s and collectors who can`t afford or don`t want to hunt down the originals and/or want to play safe with tested "killers". AlbertWashington/Finch, Gloria Irving/Charm and other semi-known tunes plus such R&B oldies as Charles Sheffield (second repress already!) make me do believe so..