What Are The Rare Records?

[Harry Crosby]

Over the past 30dd years now ive been recieving lists, going to soul events and 99% of my time at these events are either spent talking records or looking through record boxes. Over the years ive been told on many occasions that there are no rare records left in the states, obviously this means in quantity?. Every week i`m reading lists with the same stuff on thats been on the lists for all these years, even today i notice another copy of the MOMENTS going through e-bay, how many is that in 6months for sale? and these are meant to be rare records. When i think back over the past twelve months the list goes on. LESTER TIPTONS, EDDIE PARKERS, AL WILLIAMS, GENE TOONES, JACKIE DAYS etc etc. It also seems to me that condition is no object nowadays to the buyer. So in your opinion what are the rare records or indeed are there any that don`t turn up? apart from the obvious of course.

[Bigsoulman]

Over the past 30dd years now ive been recieving lists, going to soul events and 99% of my time at these events are either spent talking records or looking through record boxes. Over the years ive been told on many occasions that there are no rare records left in the states, obviously this means in quantity?. Every week i`m reading lists with the same stuff on thats been on the lists for all these years, even today i notice another copy of the MOMENTS going through e-bay, how many is that in 6months for sale? and these are meant to be rare records. When i think back over the past twelve months the list goes on. LESTER TIPTONS, EDDIE PARKERS, AL WILLIAMS, GENE TOONES, JACKIE DAYS etc etc. It also seems to me that condition is no object nowadays to the buyer. So in your opinion what are the rare records or indeed are there any that don`t turn up? apart from the obvious of course.

Butch's cover up's

[Guest Bearsy]

i really dont know whats rare or not and even those that are considered rare may not be rare cos there could be more just not found yet or in collections of collectors that might not have any links to the Rare Soul Scene, i would say 10ish known copies has to be classes as Rare or does it

[Chalky]

Copies of many of what was considered the rarest of the rare have turned up in recent years. They are still very rare mind. There are still records out there that are known for just the single, two or three known copies.

[Simon M]

Copies of many of what was considered the rarest of the rare have turned up in recent years. They are still very rare mind. There are still records out there that are known for just the single, two or three known copies.

The Parliaments "Rainy Day" seems to be very rare . Who was it that said they would turn up by the box load ?

[NEV]

SMALL SOCIETY

DWIGHT FRANKLIN .......was until he decided to go look in the shed for the 1st time in 30 yrs

[Guest Bearsy]

The Parliaments "Rainy Day" seems to be very rare . Who was it that said they would turn up by the box load ?

if they do i will have a copy

[Guest Brett F]

107th Street Stickball Team ' On Old Broadway' Dorado 45'

F.J. Jones 'Gone And Found Another' P.S. (yellow label take not multi coloured)

Two records that i have, that i never see for sale......Price isn't a factor, but they are rare records, spoke with Andy Dyson about the F. J. Jones he has it but agrees with me. Stickball never seems to turn up.

There must be loads, i think the more popular rare 45's turn up in todays world purely because of exposure via the internet etc.

Other than the obvious northern 45's what are the hardest in that world ?

[Guest Brett F]

SMALL SOCIETY

DWIGHT FRANKLIN .......was until he decided to go look in the shed for the 1st time in 30 yrs

I hope Rey Villar hasn't a shed Nev..........

[Chalky]

i really dont know whats rare or not and even those that are considered rare may not be rare cos there could be more just not found yet or in collections of collectors that might not have any links to the Rare Soul Scene, i would say 10ish known copies has to be classes as Rare or does it

100 is rare in the grand scheme of things. Look at Gene Toones Harry mentioned, it's on ebay once a month yet still considered a rarity. There's plenty more like it. We once did the Rarest Of the Rare topic on Rare Soul Forum and it had to be less than 5 known copies to get in, or some similar figure.

Mello Souls

Contessa...both

June Jackson - Musette

Timmy Carr - Workin'

Little Johnny Hamilton - Dore

Swans - Dore

Kell Osborne - Highland

Edited January 10, 2010 by chalky

[NEV]

I hope Rey Villar hasn't a shed Nev..........

Relatively new to the scene so who knows Brett ....rare local label that did'nt chart so would'nt have thought they were pressed in great quantlty??

Not referring to the Rey Villar here but in general terms ,what dicates rarity??

At the end of the day ....it comes down to .how many were pressed and how many have survived?

If someone could magically tell us the answer to those two questions ........................it would'nt half spoil the art of collecting

[davidwapples]

i bought my copy of ray pollard soulmate when i saw it afew years ago , it cost me at least 6 times more than i usually pay max and 3 times my max amount beforehand.

i have only seen one other copy on ebay and know of afew other people on here who have copies

i guess stuff like the shrine records and one off acetates are ultimatly rare but even things like red and white motown demos were manufactured in about 500 before distributed , how many survived is another matter and in what condition is another question

[Guest Brett F]

Relatively new to the scene so who knows Brett ....rare local label that did'nt chart so would'nt have thought they were pressed in great quantlty??

Not referring to the Rey Villar here but in general terms ,what dicates rarity??

At the end of the day ....it comes down to .how many were pressed and how many have survived?

If someone could magically tell us the answer to those two questions ........................it would'nt half spoil the art of collecting

Nailed on Nev............

Like you say no one can fully know.and thats a fact.

[Harry Crosby]

100 is rare in the grand scheme of things. Look at Gene Toones Harry mentioned, it's on ebay once a month yet still considered a rarity. There's plenty more like it. We once did the Rarest Of the Rare topic on Rare Soul Forum and it had to be less than 5 known copies to get in, or some similar figure.

Mello Souls

Contessa...both

June Jackson - Musette

Timmy Carr - Workin'

Little Johnny Hamilton - Dore

Swans - Dore

Kell Osborne - Highland

Little Johnny Hamilton - Dore

See i suppose it depends chalky, i know of two copies in york alone, granted it is one of those you never see listed nowadays, just a question was the swans actually released on dore?

[Chalky]

Little Johnny Hamilton - Dore

See i suppose it depends chalky, i know of two copies in york alone, granted it is one of those you never see listed nowadays, just a question was the swans actually released on dore?

Which Little Johnny Hamilton are you talking about? I'm talking about Keep On Moving. Would be surprised if there's more than a couple in the country let alone York.

As for Swans yes it was released and I've seen it.

Edited January 10, 2010 by chalky

[Guest Brett F]

The question i need answering is, when a record company and be it a small local operation, surely they cut more than a handful of 45's, otherwise what would be the economic reason behind it, surely they all (mainly) aspired to actually make some money from the release..so what was an average run?

[Guest Bearsy]

100 is rare in the grand scheme of things. Look at Gene Toones Harry mentioned, it's on ebay once a month yet still considered a rarity. There's plenty more like it. We once did the Rarest Of the Rare topic on Rare Soul Forum and it had to be less than 5 known copies to get in, or some similar figure.

Mello Souls

Contessa...both

June Jackson - Musette

Timmy Carr - Workin'

Little Johnny Hamilton - Dore

Swans - Dore

Kell Osborne - Highland

very true Chalky, lots of rare but not so many rarest of the rare which i guess is more of the case nowadays

[Guest Brett F]

Good topic this, another aside is what is the rarest record you own......in respects of your opinion.?

Chalky what's yours. Harry what's Yours, Nev yours ? etc, etc......i don't think this has been covered on this Forum before has it........

[Guest Bearsy]

oops

Edited January 10, 2010 by Bearsy

[Simon M]

The question i need answering is, when a record company and be it a small local operation, surely they cut more than a handful of 45's, otherwise what would be the economic reason behind it, surely they all (mainly) aspired to actually make some money from the release..so what was an average run?

Sometimes they would do a 100 press just to give out to Dj's or anyone to get exposure . A bit like a free mp3 download for todays artists

Edited January 10, 2010 by Simon M

[Guest Brett F]

Sometimes they would do a 100 press just to give out to Dj's or anyone to get exposure . A bit like a free mp3 download for todays artists

So in that case when we talk of 3 known copies, there could be another 97.......somewhere. thanks for that Simon,

[Guest Bearsy]

So in that case when we talk of 3 known copies, there could be another 97.......somewhere. thanks for that Simon,

i always wondered what it used to cost to get 1 copy pressed and if it got cheaper the more you had pressed, would many pay out for studio, muscicians, singers and the cutting of a tune then to the presses and to only get say half a dozen pressed,

[NEV]

Good topic this, another aside is what is the rarest record you own......in respects of your opinion.?

Chalky what's yours. Harry what's Yours, Nev yours ? etc, etc......i don't think this has been covered on this Forum before has it........

Now now Brett ...this is Harry's thread ,you can't just take over and change thing's

Rule's are rules and must be abided or where would we be......ANARCHY

May i suggest you start your own thread ,when this one dies down

On the downside Brett ....posting up your rare record might be a bad omen ........

Sod's law ...a box full will turn up next week..so in the word's of Deborah Meadon "IM OUT" or for viewer's in Scotland , Duncan Bannatyne "IM OOT"

[Guest Brett F]

i always wondered what it used to cost to get 1 copy pressed and if it got cheaper the more you had pressed, would many pay out for studio, muscicians, singers and the cutting of a tune then to the presses and to only get say half a dozen pressed,

YEP, GOOD POINT, SURELY NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND, WOULD CUT A HANDFUL OF RECORDS, REMEMBER THIS IS THE USA, MONEY AND SUCCESS BEING THE ABSOLUTE FOR THIS NATION, I UNDERSTAND A FINANCIAL LIMIT TO SOME VENTURES, BUT LIKE YOU SAY WAS IT CHEAPER THE 2ND, THIRD ETC COPY YOU HAD MADE.......

WE NEED IAN DEWHIRST ON BOARD

Edited January 10, 2010 by Brett F

[Chalky]

i always wondered what it used to cost to get 1 copy pressed and if it got cheaper the more you had pressed, would many pay out for studio, muscicians, singers and the cutting of a tune then to the presses and to only get say half a dozen pressed,

it all depends on the pressing plant/studio. Some will press single figure copies, some it may be minimum of 50, 100, 300, 500...whatever. There were stores in the US you could walk into and record a record for a few dollars and come away with a copy of the recording.

So for records which are rare we always use the term "known" as that is the figure known about. There are collectors all over the world that have no association with the Northern Soul scene so who knows what is out there in the big wide world.

Edited January 10, 2010 by chalky

[Guest Brett F]

Now now Brett ...this is Harry's thread ,you can't just take over and change thing's

Rule's are rules and must be abided or where would we be......ANARCHY

May i suggest you start your own thread ,when this one dies down

On the downside Brett ....posting up your rare record might be a bad omen ........

Sod's law ...a box full will turn up next week..so in the word's of Deborah Meadon "IM OUT" or for viewer's in Scotland , Duncan Bannatyne "IM OOT"

Point taken, duly will take a back seat....would be bloody interesting wouldn't it though.....

[Guest Brett F]

it all depends on the pressing plant/studio. Some will press single figure copies, some it may be minimum of 50, 100, 300, 500...whatever. There were stores in the US you could walk into and record a record for a few dollars and come away with a copy of the recording.

So for records which are rare we always use the term "known" as that is the figure known about. There are collectors all over the world that have no association with the Northern Soul scene so who knows what is out there in the big wide world.

Find this hard to believe, what would be the reason, like i stated earlier what would be the financial reason in such action, i don't know the price of a single press but surely one and say 40 wouldn't be too great....would it ?... i only ask because i don't know..

[Guest Bearsy]

it all depends on the pressing plant/studio. Some will press single figure copies, some it may be minimum of 50, 100, 300, 500...whatever. There were stores in the US you could walk into and record a record for a few dollars and come away with a copy of the recording.

So for records which are rare we always use the term "known" as that is the figure known about. There are collectors all over the world that have no association with the Northern Soul scene so who knows what is out there in the big wide world.

for as little as a few dollars to make and press a single record

a lot of the "rare" tunes seem to me to be quite a production involved ie- muscisions, lead vocal, backing vocal etc so the said producer would have to pay a good few dollars out before a record was pressed, if that was the case and if the said producer was trying to make a hit which would of led to making money then the more first presses would of been given out to djs for air time and the more you get out the more chance of the record being a success and after all it must of been a business decision taking into account love for the music, time and cost, if it was me i would of wanted to get a record out everywhere and anywhere as long as it came within a budget and to take such a thing on a budget would of had to of been in place but then again it is the USA after all

my thoughts anyway and i hope they kind of make sense

[Harry Crosby]

Which Little Johnny Hamilton are you talking about? I'm talking about Keep On Moving. Would be surprised if there's more than a couple in the country let alone York.

As for Swans yes it was released and I've seen it.

OOOps very sorry chalky, thought you were on about the other little johnny hamilton, & many thanks for the info on the swans, i honestly didn`t know it reached release

[Sean Hampsey]

it all depends on the pressing plant/studio. Some will press single figure copies, some it may be minimum of 50, 100, 300, 500...whatever. There were stores in the US you could walk into and record a record for a few dollars and come away with a copy of the recording.

You could cerainly do that Chalky.

We even had Booths in this country back in the 60's where you could go and cut a record for about 10 shillings (50p).

Brett - The economics were and are the same as with any manufacturing process - the more you press, the cheaper the unit price as the set up cost is liquidated over a greater number.

Even the very small labels would have found it viable to press 300+ rather than a handful.

This is why even the very rarest records will turn up... every now and then.

The 'survivors' are all still out there!

Sean

[Harry Crosby]

for as little as a few dollars to make and press a single record

a lot of the "rare" tunes seem to me to be quite a production involved ie- muscisions, lead vocal, backing vocal etc so the said producer would have to pay a good few dollars out before a record was pressed, if that was the case and if the said producer was trying to make a hit which would of led to making money then the more first presses would of been given out to djs for air time and the more you get out the more chance of the record being a success and after all it must of been a business decision taking into account love for the music, time and cost, if it was me i would of wanted to get a record out everywhere and anywhere as long as it came within a budget and to take such a thing on a budget would of had to of been in place but then again it is the USA after all

my thoughts anyway and i hope they kind of make sense

Good point bearsy, then theres the "HARD NUMBER" thing on a major label, ie jackey beavers on revilot

[Guest Brett F]

You could cerainly do that Chalky.

We even had Booths in this country back in the 60's where you could go and cut a record for about 10 shillings (50p).

Brett - The economics were and are the same as with any manufacturing process - the more you press, the cheaper the unit price as the set up cost is liquidated over a greater number.

Even the very small labels would have found it viable to press 300+ rather than a handful.

This is why even the very rarest records will turn up... every now and then.

The 'survivors' are all still out there!

Sean

Thanks Sean, very interesting, i think we could do with a dayer, without music, where we could just ask questions...

[Chalky]

OOOps very sorry chalky, thought you were on about the other little johnny hamilton, & many thanks for the info on the swans, i honestly didn`t know it reached release

nowt to be sorry about pal, should have made it clearer in original post which one. There could be at least two copies of the Swans, certainly know of and have seen one.

[Guest Brett F]

You could cerainly do that Chalky.

We even had Booths in this country back in the 60's where you could go and cut a record for about 10 shillings (50p).

Brett - The economics were and are the same as with any manufacturing process - the more you press, the cheaper the unit price as the set up cost is liquidated over a greater number.

Even the very small labels would have found it viable to press 300+ rather than a handful.

This is why even the very rarest records will turn up... every now and then.

The 'survivors' are all still out there!

Sean

Agreed on this point Sean, but hell, what about the musicians, the producing etc and good God what about A & R, you aren't goin to tell me Laskeys allowed a full scale band into a 1960's phone box and let them play for 3 minutes are you ..............

Edited January 10, 2010 by Brett F

[Sean Hampsey]

Agreed on this point Sean, but hell, what about the musicians, the producing etc and good God what about A & R, you aren't goin to tell me Laskeys allowed a full scale band into a 1960's phone box and let them play for 3 minutes are you ..............

Of course not. I was merely supporting Chalky's comment that there were stores in the US you could walk into and record a record for a few dollars and come away with a copy of the recording, by explaining that we could even do that over here - for a 'one-off'.

The stuff 'Rare Soul' fans tend to collect is covered in the second part of my post.

Sean

[Guest Brett F]

Of course not. I was merely supporting Chalky's comment that there were stores in the US you could walk into and record a record for a few dollars and come away with a copy of the recording, by explaining that we could even do that over here - for a 'one-off'.

The stuff 'Rare Soul' fans tend to collect is covered in the second part of my post.

Sean

I eagerly await part 2..........

[NEV]

100 is rare in the grand scheme of things. Look at Gene Toones Harry mentioned, it's on ebay once a month yet still considered a rarity. There's plenty more like it. We once did the Rarest Of the Rare topic on Rare Soul Forum and it had to be less than 5 known copies to get in, or some similar figure.

Mello Souls

Contessa...both

June Jackson - Musette

Timmy Carr - Workin'

Little Johnny Hamilton - Dore

Swans - Dore

Kell Osborne - Highland

Back on to the original question for Harry

ARTHUR WILLIS can't be too many kickin about

[Chalky]

you only have to sit and listen to some of the unissued stuff that is now out there, the Motown, the RCA stuff, some of it with full orchestra and whatever supporting the artist. The studio time alone must have cost a few bob let alone the production costs, and what for, to get rejected and shelved, stored in a dusty vault to be found many years later.

Edited January 10, 2010 by chalky

[Chalky]

Agreed on this point Sean, but hell, what about the musicians, the producing etc and good God what about A & R, you aren't goin to tell me Laskeys allowed a full scale band into a 1960's phone box and let them play for 3 minutes are you ..............

but they weren't always phone boxes were they, often small studios trying to make extra money.

[Sean Hampsey]

you only have to sit and listen to some of the unissued stuff that is now out there, the Motown, the RCA stuff, some of it with full orchestra and whatever supporting the artist. The studio time alone must have cost a few bob let alone the production costs, and what for, to get rejected and shelved, stored in a dusty vault to be found many years later.

Worth noting that, in the case of Motown, the label owned the Studio facility and the Musicians were mostly salaried, so the cost was covered as a 'fixed 'cost' (it cost the same whether it was utilised or not).

This is why they were able to record 24/7 at no further expense... and could therefore afford to implement strict quality control and have such a high 'rejection rate'.

In the case of RCA, it was a 'Major' label - consequently the Pop hits from Paul Anka et al paid for all the rejects.

In contrast, it was the 'Megatones and Cabells' of this world where a guy could lose his shirt if he overpaid for Artists, Production and Promotion... which is why they did it 'on the cheap and in limited numbers.

Sean

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sean Hampsey

[De-to]

woo hoo thank f**k nobodys mentioned a certain motown record that manny auctioned a while ago,

[Anoraks Corner]

OK, off on a tangent and I am talking about well-known tunes rather than the more recent discoveries:

I think the 'foreign' (-ie non US/UK) label release rarities, will come into play more and more with collectors in the future, as the search for genuinely rare discs continues. I'm not talking about the well-documented Continental European releases, but some of the Australian, Argentinian, Indian, Greek and Japanese pressed discs. Their genuine rarity can't be denied with their certainly very limited pressing runs...now add their eye-catching label designs and sleeves...they certainly add a certain sparkle to any collection. How many Japanese copies of Lada Edmund Jr's 'The Larue' have you ever seen?!

Now back to the chat about the rare US releases!

[Harry Crosby]

OK, off on a tangent and I am talking about well-known tunes rather than the more recent discoveries:

I think the 'foreign' (-ie non US/UK) label release rarities, will come into play more and more with collectors in the future, as the search for genuinely rare discs continues. I'm not talking about the well-documented Continental European releases, but some of the Australian, Argentinian, Indian, Greek and Japanese pressed discs. Their genuine rarity can't be denied with their certainly very limited pressing runs...now add their eye-catching label designs and sleeves...they certainly add a certain sparkle to any collection. How many Japanese copies of Lada Edmund Jr's 'The Larue' have you ever seen?!

Now back to the chat about the rare US releases!

Think your probably right here dave, look at some of the south american stuff thats been thrown up over the fast couple of years

[Guest Bearsy]

Worth noting that, in the case of Motown, the label owned the Studio facility and the Musicians were mostly salaried, so the cost was covered as a 'fixed 'cost' (it cost the same whether it was utilised or not).

This is why they were able to record 24/7 at no further expense... and could therefore afford to implement strict quality control and have such a high 'rejection rate'.

In the case of RCA, it was a 'Major' label - consequently the Pop hits from Paul Anka et al paid for all the rejects.

In contrast, it was the 'Megatones and Cabells' of this world where a guy could lose his shirt if he overpaid for Artists, Production and Promotion... which is why they did it 'on the cheap and in limited numbers.

Sean

would be very interesting to know how many "This is my rainy day" was pressed and even how many copies of the Mello Souls too for example

they both sound like they have a very big production about them so for all the pay out to get them pressed just how many did get pressed and if more than say 10 then just where are them little buggers hiding

[boba]

Over the past 30dd years now ive been recieving lists, going to soul events and 99% of my time at these events are either spent talking records or looking through record boxes. Over the years ive been told on many occasions that there are no rare records left in the states, obviously this means in quantity?. Every week i`m reading lists with the same stuff on thats been on the lists for all these years, even today i notice another copy of the MOMENTS going through e-bay, how many is that in 6months for sale? and these are meant to be rare records. When i think back over the past twelve months the list goes on. LESTER TIPTONS, EDDIE PARKERS, AL WILLIAMS, GENE TOONES, JACKIE DAYS etc etc. It also seems to me that condition is no object nowadays to the buyer. So in your opinion what are the rare records or indeed are there any that don`t turn up? apart from the obvious of course.

we already had this thread like 6 months ago. everybody posts the few random records that they or their friends have in their collections that they have decided is ultra rare (often times because the people who have sold it to them have gassed them up to milk them on the price). many of the records aren't actually that rare. what's more ridiculous is people trying to list how many copies in existence of each one there are. there are literally thousands of records that are ultra-rare that don't come up for sale, you just don't see them for sale every day and people don't talk about them and people in the know will pick them up will fight over them when they do. it's pointless to try to list them all.

[George G]

If you don't mind the comments from a Yank outsider, I have spent a lot of time researching the 'ecomonics's of the US record business, primarily in 60s garage bands, and more recently, soul and funk.

There were a few different levels on how records were pressed and distributed. I'll start with the bottom.

Many US cities had recording studios that offered 'packages' to aspiring recording artists. For, say, $300, you could have a couple hours of recording time and the studio would then have a few hundred copies of your record pressed. The studio would handle all the 'paperwork' and 3 or so weeks after the session the group would have all the copies in their possesion. They would distribute by word of mouth - selling them at their live shows, getting the local music store to sell them (often on consignment), and get a few to radio stations and promoters in the area. Many they would send a copy or two to a relative in a different part of the country. Sometimes, the recording session and records cost would be part of a 'battle of the bands' or talent show prize.

This model was pretty common for US garage bands. Over the years, label names like Fenton, Orlyn, WAM, all of which were 'house' labels assigned by the studio to their custom, or vanity, records, have become legendary to garage collectors as Shrine, etc are to soul collectors.

A good example of this would be the Shaddows and Insights 45s on United Audio. UA was the house label for the United Audio recording studio in Youngstown, OH. It was formerly WAM and later Peppermint (Peppermint was a different facility). The groups recorded the 45s in the studios and had the studio send the tapes to QCA for pressing and had the house label placed on the record. In the case of the Shaddows, they had a person with the money fund the cost of recording and pressing, in hopes of having a successful payback. In the case of the Insights, they and their manager funded the cost of the recording.

In other cases, groups would record in places like local radio stations, school music rooms, even clubs, and take their tapes and send them to a custom pressing plant.

During the 'prime time' (mid 60s - early 70s) there were something like 30 custom pressing plants in the US. You all know the big ones - Monarch, RCA, ARP, Wakefield, QCA, but there others like Kelmar and Pama in Cleveland that are not as well known but pressed some significant records. These plants advertised for custom work in trade mags like Billboard. The big ones like Rite and Wakefield advertised constantly.

Regarding the number of pressings, the standard figures seem to be 250, 500, and 1000. In some cases records would have some modest success and the band would re-press another 500-1000. 100 seems to be minimum. There are some records that I have seen documentation for a pressing of less than 100 but those are few and far between, as most of the larger plants had a minimum order of 100, or 200. Pama, the place in Cleveland, did some 100 press runs, and a documented press of 85 for a record.

The now famous Boddie/Kelmar pressing plant in Cleveland had pressed at least 200 of every record. You can go to my BuckeyeBeat site and look under the Soul Kitchen label for documented pressing runs. For example, Jackie Russell was a 500 pressing (done at Kelmar in Cleveland) but due to a dispute between Russell and Boddie, a lot of the copies were not distributed (most of them ended up in storage a good number were water damaged). Very few copies of this record were found 'in the wild' (I found one 20 or so years ago).

Well, that's enough for now. If there's interest I will post similar details.

- George

[boba]

If you don't mind the comments from a Yank outsider, I have spent a lot of time researching the 'ecomonics's of the US record business, primarily in 60s garage bands, and more recently, soul and funk.

There were a few different levels on how records were pressed and distributed. I'll start with the bottom.

Many US cities had recording studios that offered 'packages' to aspiring recording artists. For, say, $300, you could have a couple hours of recording time and the studio would then have a few hundred copies of your record pressed. The studio would handle all the 'paperwork' and 3 or so weeks after the session the group would have all the copies in their possesion. They would distribute by word of mouth - selling them at their live shows, getting the local music store to sell them (often on consignment), and get a few to radio stations and promoters in the area. Many they would send a copy or two to a relative in a different part of the country. Sometimes, the recording session and records cost would be part of a 'battle of the bands' or talent show prize.

This model was pretty common for US garage bands. Over the years, label names like Fenton, Orlyn, WAM, all of which were 'house' labels assigned by the studio to their custom, or vanity, records, have become legendary to garage collectors as Shrine, etc are to soul collectors.

A good example of this would be the Shaddows and Insights 45s on United Audio. UA was the house label for the United Audio recording studio in Youngstown, OH. It was formerly WAM and later Peppermint (Peppermint was a different facility). The groups recorded the 45s in the studios and had the studio send the tapes to QCA for pressing and had the house label placed on the record. In the case of the Shaddows, they had a person with the money fund the cost of recording and pressing, in hopes of having a successful payback. In the case of the Insights, they and their manager funded the cost of the recording.

In other cases, groups would record in places like local radio stations, school music rooms, even clubs, and take their tapes and send them to a custom pressing plant.

During the 'prime time' (mid 60s - early 70s) there were something like 30 custom pressing plants in the US. You all know the big ones - Monarch, RCA, ARP, Wakefield, QCA, but there others like Kelmar and Pama in Cleveland that are not as well known but pressed some significant records. These plants advertised for custom work in trade mags like Billboard. The big ones like Rite and Wakefield advertised constantly.

Regarding the number of pressings, the standard figures seem to be 250, 500, and 1000. In some cases records would have some modest success and the band would re-press another 500-1000. 100 seems to be minimum. There are some records that I have seen documentation for a pressing of less than 100 but those are few and far between, as most of the larger plants had a minimum order of 100, or 200. Pama, the place in Cleveland, did some 100 press runs, and a documented press of 85 for a record.

The now famous Boddie/Kelmar pressing plant in Cleveland had pressed at least 200 of every record. You can go to my BuckeyeBeat site and look under the Soul Kitchen label for documented pressing runs. For example, Jackie Russell was a 500 pressing (done at Kelmar in Cleveland) but due to a dispute between Russell and Boddie, a lot of the copies were not distributed (most of them ended up in storage a good number were water damaged). Very few copies of this record were found 'in the wild' (I found one 20 or so years ago).

Well, that's enough for now. If there's interest I will post similar details.

- George

there are a lot of records where 500 copies were pressed that are ultra-rare. If people like john anderson never found the stock or found the stock but passed on it or the stock was moved into local people's collections via shows (but not distributed) and then the rest was thrown out, the records will be ultra-rare. In the last thread, for example, the intentions on tiki was brought up, and the members of the group told me that 500 copies were pressed. the record is still very hard to find. the fact that 500 or even 200 copies were pressed, however, makes speculating on how many copies actually exist a stupid activity.

[Harry Crosby]

we already had this thread like 6 months ago. everybody posts the few random records that they or their friends have in their collections that they have decided is ultra rare (often times because the people who have sold it to them have gassed them up to milk them on the price). many of the records aren't actually that rare. what's more ridiculous is people trying to list how many copies in existence of each one there are. there are literally thousands of records that are ultra-rare that don't come up for sale, you just don't see them for sale every day and people don't talk about them and people in the know will pick them up will fight over them when they do. it's pointless to try to list them all.

Cheers for that boba, good reply

[Harry Crosby]

If you don't mind the comments from a Yank outsider, I have spent a lot of time researching the 'ecomonics's of the US record business, primarily in 60s garage bands, and more recently, soul and funk.

There were a few different levels on how records were pressed and distributed. I'll start with the bottom.

Many US cities had recording studios that offered 'packages' to aspiring recording artists. For, say, $300, you could have a couple hours of recording time and the studio would then have a few hundred copies of your record pressed. The studio would handle all the 'paperwork' and 3 or so weeks after the session the group would have all the copies in their possesion. They would distribute by word of mouth - selling them at their live shows, getting the local music store to sell them (often on consignment), and get a few to radio stations and promoters in the area. Many they would send a copy or two to a relative in a different part of the country. Sometimes, the recording session and records cost would be part of a 'battle of the bands' or talent show prize.

This model was pretty common for US garage bands. Over the years, label names like Fenton, Orlyn, WAM, all of which were 'house' labels assigned by the studio to their custom, or vanity, records, have become legendary to garage collectors as Shrine, etc are to soul collectors.

A good example of this would be the Shaddows and Insights 45s on United Audio. UA was the house label for the United Audio recording studio in Youngstown, OH. It was formerly WAM and later Peppermint (Peppermint was a different facility). The groups recorded the 45s in the studios and had the studio send the tapes to QCA for pressing and had the house label placed on the record. In the case of the Shaddows, they had a person with the money fund the cost of recording and pressing, in hopes of having a successful payback. In the case of the Insights, they and their manager funded the cost of the recording.

In other cases, groups would record in places like local radio stations, school music rooms, even clubs, and take their tapes and send them to a custom pressing plant.

During the 'prime time' (mid 60s - early 70s) there were something like 30 custom pressing plants in the US. You all know the big ones - Monarch, RCA, ARP, Wakefield, QCA, but there others like Kelmar and Pama in Cleveland that are not as well known but pressed some significant records. These plants advertised for custom work in trade mags like Billboard. The big ones like Rite and Wakefield advertised constantly.

Regarding the number of pressings, the standard figures seem to be 250, 500, and 1000. In some cases records would have some modest success and the band would re-press another 500-1000. 100 seems to be minimum. There are some records that I have seen documentation for a pressing of less than 100 but those are few and far between, as most of the larger plants had a minimum order of 100, or 200. Pama, the place in Cleveland, did some 100 press runs, and a documented press of 85 for a record.

The now famous Boddie/Kelmar pressing plant in Cleveland had pressed at least 200 of every record. You can go to my BuckeyeBeat site and look under the Soul Kitchen label for documented pressing runs. For example, Jackie Russell was a 500 pressing (done at Kelmar in Cleveland) but due to a dispute between Russell and Boddie, a lot of the copies were not distributed (most of them ended up in storage a good number were water damaged). Very few copies of this record were found 'in the wild' (I found one 20 or so years ago).

Well, that's enough for now. If there's interest I will post similar details.

- George

very well put, and informative reply george, fascinating stuff

[dthedrug]

very well put, and informative reply george, fascinating stuff

Excellant, I have to agree with Harry DITTO his this write up DAVE KIL