Which Era Suppliesthe Best Newies Of Today ?

[Chalky]

Not at all. Yes of course, R/B is an element of musical influence on what became the Motown Sound, crossed with Gospel and pop. But that is talking about the direct genetic musical link between musical styles fashioned and created in America. The 'Northern Soul' scene and that classic, traditional 'northern sound' came from a host of 60s record labels trying to impersonate or pick up on the shirt tails of Motown's success, once the 'Motown Sound' itself had evolved and emerged. These elements then combined thru recognition and affection in England to create a dance orienated scene based around records created in that slipstream. Nobody in America ever used the term 'Northern Soul'. So to me and a lot of others - including PETE it appears - Motown is logically the bedrock of the Northern Soul classic sound.

To sum up, the definition of what made an original classic 'Northern Soul' record was concieved by fans, collectors, DJ's etc. In England.

The musical evolution from R/B to GOSPEL crossed with POP was the creation of Musicians and Producers. Equals = Soul Music. Dancers, Ballads, Deep, midtempo, a host of differing flavours. Created and defined as 'Soul Music' in America.

Two different areas of definition mate. Simple. But a totally different thematic angle as opposed to the original question.

Motown R&B??? Much of the popular Motown is just that pop. It was aimed at a white pop audience. Berry Gordy knew he couldn't mass market and sell millions to the black audience, thats why he didn't use photos of the groups on the sleeves to begin with. There are 100's of labels that strived to create their own sound and not copy/impersonate Motown, other Detroit labels included and many of these are just as important to the scene. Not everyone subscibes to your ideals, Motown, yes it made some great music, some shite too, but it isn't the bedrock of the scene to all of us.

[Mark S]

Dont know about which era supplies the best newies but its about time DJs played some of the brilliant B sides and album tracks that should keep us going for a few more years .

Its all subjective no era produced the best newies and judging by some of the posts on here we will be argueing about the colour of orange juice next

As for posting the question in the first place you mad bugger.

[Chalky]

Any chance we could get back to the orignal question?

Here's a thought: There are tons of decent and lesser known/unknown R&B or 70s tracks that could get plays. But in the long run it's the dancefloor that decides if a track is any good and if it's R&B or 70s/80s stuff that will be tomorrow newies. A few years ago the more hard edge soul/R&B style was 'en vogue' hence many a new tunes were in that style. Then the more funky crossover 70s stuff became the fashion of the day and for some time many a newies/monster spins were from that camp.

But one thing's for sure, the days of good quality 60s soul newies are certainly long gone.

There are tons of lesser known 60's tracks too, or should I say lesser played. You only have to go through dealers websites and listen or refosoul to find them. All it takes is a bit of patience, something DJ's and dancefloors don't have these days. Dunno about tons of 70's, think most 70's, like the 60's, are known (maybe not to the dancers but to dealers and collectors they are known) but again they maybe haven't the quality of previous 70's before them. DJ's and collectors moved onto 70's some years ago when the 60's started to dry up.

Edited January 10, 2010 by chalky

[Guest gordon russell]

So it's either uptempo 60s or midtempo 70s? Tell you what, an allnighter full of midtempo 60s would be empty as well.

you're not wrong there fella.....dreary l call it lol

[Guest]

Motown R&B??? Much of the popular Motown is just that pop. It was aimed at a white pop audience. Berry Gordy knew he couldn't mass market and sell millions to the black audience, thats why he didn't use photos of the groups on the sleeves to begin with. There are 100's of labels that strived to create their own sound and not copy/impersonate Motown, other Detroit labels included and many of these are just as important to the scene. Not everyone subscibes to your ideals, Motown, yes it made some great music, some shite too, but it isn't the bedrock of the scene to all of us.

If BERRY GORDY and MOTOWN had never existed, there would be no such thing as the UK 'NORTHERN SOUL' scene. Period. You are talking out of your arse. Sorry.

Edited January 10, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Chalky]

If BERRY GORDY and MOTOWN had never existed, there would be no such thing as the UK 'NORTHERN SOUL' scene. Period. You are talking out of your arse. Sorry.

How do you know it would never have existed? I dare say there would have be some sort of soul scene without Motown but who is right or wrong I guess we will never know. Other labels were collected just as much if not more, especially for those who preferred it more soulful/gritty. Granted many did get into the scene through Motown but many soon looked elsewhere when they realised it isn't all about Motown, especially since much of it is commercial and as I said aimed at a white pop market.

[Pete S]

How do you know it would never have existed? I dare say there would have be some sort of soul scene without Motown but who is right or wrong I guess we will never know. Other labels were collected just as much if not more, especially for those who preferred it more soulful/gritty. Granted many did get into the scene through Motown but many soon looked elsewhere when they realised it isn't all about Motown, especially since much of it is commercial and as I said aimed at a white pop market.

I think he means that the template for the style and sound of the music was created by/at Motown, and without that it would never have existed

[Hermanthegerman]

If BERRY GORDY and MOTOWN had never existed, there would be no such thing as the UK 'NORTHERN SOUL' scene. Period. You are talking out of your arse. Sorry.

What about Soul music from other places than Detroit, e.g. New York, Chicago, New Orleans...

Hardly all Motown soundalikes to my ears.

But maybe I´m wrong again and we should bow to the shere genius of Berry Gordy, who invented soul- music...

[Guest posstot]

Not at all. Yes of course, R/B is an element of musical influence on what became the Motown Sound, crossed with Gospel and pop. But that is talking about the direct genetic musical link between musical styles fashioned and created in America. The 'Northern Soul' scene and that classic, traditional 'northern sound' came from a host of 60s record labels trying to impersonate or pick up on the shirt tails of Motown's success, once the 'Motown Sound' itself had evolved and emerged. These elements then combined thru recognition and affection in England to create a dance orienated scene based around records created in that slipstream. Nobody in America ever used the term 'Northern Soul'. So to me and a lot of others - including PETE it appears - Motown is logically the bedrock of the Northern Soul classic sound.

To sum up, the definition of what made an original classic 'Northern Soul' record was concieved by fans, collectors, DJ's etc. In England.

The musical evolution from R/B to GOSPEL crossed with POP was the creation of Musicians and Producers. Equals = Soul Music. Dancers, Ballads, Deep, midtempo, a host of differing flavours. Created and defined as 'Soul Music' in America.

Two different areas of definition mate. Simple. But a totally different thematic angle as opposed to the original question.

Have you got 'O' levels....you're very bright.

[Guest posstot]

If BERRY GORDY and MOTOWN had never existed, there would be no such thing as the UK 'NORTHERN SOUL' scene. Period. You are talking out of your arse. Sorry.

WHAT A LOAD OF UTTER CRAP. Soul music existed before and during the birth of Motown. In just about every Major city and town in America. And they too were born out of the church..blues and jazz, even Classical elements, especially in the production and arrangement of the music. Maybe Detroit, and its Motown production line, Like the industry of the city itself, gained the upper hand because of the business accumin of it's founder Berry Gordy Jnr...and the producers, arrangers, engineers, writers, musicians and artists.

But New york had Chuck Jackson..Sammy Lowe...Baby Washington...Teacho Wiltshire......Sid Barnes..the Brill Building and probably a hell of a lot of street corners.

As Chicago had Major Lance....Curtis Mayfield....Carl Davis......Sonny Sanders....Eugene Record....and just as many Street corners. Then there's California, Los Angeles, Houston, and not forgetting Washington D.C itself. You know Shrine records?

The thing that Motown had was the upper hand on the Marketting, Distribution and production of music.........Not everybody copied Motown.....musically, everyone had there own sound...that's why a lot of us can distinguish Cities by the sound of the music.

Go and buy some slip ons.

[Guest cheryl]

Quite a debate u got going here boys, I have some early crests records on coede date about 58 that I've played out I like the early stuff but I also like late 70s , 80s and 90s stuff and I like the soulful house, I personally think that some people just like what they like and get blinkered sometimes, I also know someone who has played the inkspots at a venue and they are even earlier. Therefore cause I like early stuff n modern stuff I would be very hard pressed to choose at a push I would say pre 63

[Guest Brett F]

Just saw this post, sorry for being late.

Are my posts above yours so difficult to understand- is it my bad english?

And how did you guess I´m from Germany

Oh my dear misguided boy...it was, OH, SO, SO TRANSPARENT............

[Hermanthegerman]

Oh my dear misguided boy...it was, OH, SO, SO TRANSPARENT............

O.K., now I know what to "belittle" means

So what´s the deal with being from Germany, Sir?

[Guest Brett F]

O.K., now I know what to "belittle" means

So what´s the deal with being from Germany, Sir?

Nothing i have spent many a time in your fair country, was taken in and given incredible hospitality by dear German friends in Dortmund around 1996, they also came to my then flat and i put them up for two weeks a year later, superb friends..............

[Hermanthegerman]

Nothing i have spent many a time in your fair country, was taken in and given incredible hospitality by dear German friends in Dortmund around 1996, they also came to my then flat and i put them up for two weeks a year later, superb friends..............

Dortmund´s close to my place, I might know your mates, if they had or have some link with the german soul scene...

[Guest Brett F]

Dortmund´s close to my place, I might know your mates, if they had or have some link with the german soul scene...

Pm me.

[Guest]

Have you got 'O' levels....you're very bright.

Nice one mate...did you sit there with a smug little grin after you'd posted that?

Do sarcastic one liners do it for you?

Go on then, indulge yourself.

[Guest]

WHAT A LOAD OF UTTER CRAP. Soul music existed before and during the birth of Motown. In just about every Major city and town in America. And they too were born out of the church..blues and jazz, even Classical elements, especially in the production and arrangement of the music. Maybe Detroit, and its Motown production line, Like the industry of the city itself, gained the upper hand because of the business accumin of it's founder Berry Gordy Jnr...and the producers, arrangers, engineers, writers, musicians and artists.

But New york had Chuck Jackson..Sammy Lowe...Baby Washington...Teacho Wiltshire......Sid Barnes..the Brill Building and probably a hell of a lot of street corners.

As Chicago had Major Lance....Curtis Mayfield....Carl Davis......Sonny Sanders....Eugene Record....and just as many Street corners. Then there's California, Los Angeles, Houston, and not forgetting Washington D.C itself. You know Shrine records?

The thing that Motown had was the upper hand on the Marketting, Distribution and production of music.........Not everybody copied Motown.....musically, everyone had there own sound...that's why a lot of us can distinguish Cities by the sound of the music.

Go and buy some slip ons.

If you want to throw insults around, dont give it the large one from behind a computer. You can state a position in a debate without having to resort to that.

First. Start reading a little bit slower. My post said without Berry Gordy and Motown, there would be no such thing as the 'Northern Soul' scene.

Not 'no such thing such as Soul music'. Two distinctly different statements.

It's a position which holds up from every angle, mate.

You don't even know me. Are you thinking that you are going to give me a history of Soul lesson? You think you are telling me anything in that post I don't know?

Ok, it's a good subject for a thread, so I will write an opening clarification tonight and post it tomorrow. Then you can absorb it and respond with your

erudite wisdom.

Edited January 10, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

How do you know it would never have existed? I dare say there would have be some sort of soul scene without Motown but who is right or wrong I guess we will never know. Other labels were collected just as much if not more, especially for those who preferred it more soulful/gritty. Granted many did get into the scene through Motown but many soon looked elsewhere when they realised it isn't all about Motown, especially since much of it is commercial and as I said aimed at a white pop market.

I love these statements lol!

[Pete S]

My post said Without Berry Gordy and Motown, there would be no such thing as the 'northern Soul' scene.

I agreed with you. There would certainly have been 'soul' per se but it probably wouldn't have sounded like it did!

[Guest]

What about Soul music from other places than Detroit, e.g. New York, Chicago, New Orleans...

Hardly all Motown soundalikes to my ears.

But maybe I´m wrong again and we should bow to the shere genius of Berry Gordy, who invented soul- music...

No mate, he did not invent Soul Music. I most certainly never implied anything of the sort so why purport that? He hired certain Writers and Producers who musically perfected a certain strand of it and then GORDY sold it to the world. The onfollowing influence of both the musical and commercial elements inspired a whole generation of Black Artists and Producers, Label owners etc to believe that they too could grab a little of the 'pop' pie. The affect in Detroit alone was enough to ignite the single biggest geographical catalogue of records that would one day form the basis of the UK 'Northern Soul scene'. Say what you want, without Motown and the Detroit offshoots, there is simply no way in which the UK Northern Soul scene would have existed in the way or to the degree to which we know it. As for the race aspects, these people who keep going on about 'a white audience' when they are white themselves, make me smile. Its as if they are saying white people cannot appreciate Soul Music and if white people like a style of Soul, it must mean it is not Soul anymore!...DAVID RUFFIN howling on 'Aint to proud to beg' is not Soul? GLADYS on 'Everybody needs love', MARVIN on 'Chained', BOBBY TAYLOR on 'Blessed' - Not Soul? SMOKEY on 'Swept for you baby' not Soul? We could go on all night.

It's also as if they believe there is one particular stylistic strand of music which is 'pop'. Which is ridiculous being the term 'pop' is simply an abbreviation of the term 'popular' and over the decades many different strands of musical styles were 'popular' in the US. What do you think Chess, Wand, Mirwood and all the other companies wanted? Small sales to a blacks-only audience? Writers and Producers like CURTIS MAYFIELD, FRED SMITH and all the others were all hoping their records might cross over into the pop charts because the amounts shifted there resulted in big financial incentives - and a hell of a lot of records from New York and Chicago did make the pop charts mate....Does that make them 'white man's music'? Like I said, I will write an opening posting and post it tomorrow on the subject. But please stop changing the tense of what I am actually saying...

Edited January 10, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

I agreed with you. There would certainly have been 'soul' per se but it probably wouldn't have sounded like it did!

I know you did PETE, thats because you actually understand what I am saying. That dance template was Motown's and the other Detroit guys expanded on it to a sublime level. How anybody believes our scene would have existed in any where near the degree it does without that template is a joke. As you know!

[Chalky]

As for the race aspects, these people who keep going on about 'a white audience' when they are white themselves, make me smile. Its as if they are saying white people cannot appreciate Soul Music and if white people like a style of Soul, it must mean it is not Soul anymore! DAVID RUFFIN howling on 'Aint to proud to beg' is not Soul? GLADYS on 'Everybody needs love', MARVIN on 'Chained', BOBBY TAYLOR on 'Blessed' - Not Soul? SMOKEY on 'Swept for you baby' not Soul? We could go on all night.

It is clearly documented that Motown sales were aimed at a white pop market and not the black R&B market, that is where the big sales were and still are. And just where did I say white people can't appreciate soul? Nowhere and I didn't infer it either.

[Hermanthegerman]

....Does that make them 'white man's music'?

But please stop changing the tense of what I am actually saying...

Yes, if you do so too, Sir.

Dunno where you got that quote from, definetely not from me...

Edited January 10, 2010 by hermanthegerman

[Guest]

It is clearly documented that Motown sales were aimed at a white pop market and not the black R&B market, that is where the big sales were and still are. And just where did I say white people can't appreciate soul? Nowhere and I didn't infer it either.

(Can't be bothered with a new thread, nothing more to say on the subject after this.)

You just don't get it do you? You can't have it both ways lol! You are saying Motown is not a Soul label. I've just given you perfect examples of Motown records that were extremely Soulful and you say nothing about the examples. The stuff about Motown being 'pop' and not Soul is cliched and disengenuous and I do not just mean when used by you. It has become a stock-in-trade quote whenever people want to knock the label. In my previous posts I mean that what you are saying transposes - in meaning - to saying that Motown was not supposedly aimed at black people, it was only aimed at white - from your way of thinking, Motown is not Soul it is pop - therefore it would have to mean all the white people who are deeply into Motown are not Soul fans. Its just a further application of your logic...which is actually based in miscomprehension. Mine follows a different course.

Motown was a Soul label that excelled in crossing over into the pop charts. It made great records in a dance Soul style and yes, a lot of white people loved them. Because they were great records. So, in fact did a lot of black people in America as well. I've said this before on here but if you walked into the Top Twenty Club in Detroit in the mid-60s you would have seen crowds of black people dancing to Motown records and watching Motown acts. Never mind the usual stuff about DIANA ROSS, no white male singers of the time sounded like LEVI STUBBS or DAVID RUFFIN or MARVIN GAYE and not many black guys were consistently that good either. All the big Motown stars regularly played at the Harlem Apollo - jesus christ mate - the audience there was not only 99 per cent black, it was also the most hostile in the USA if it did not rate an act - how the hell did the Motown acts get booked into there constantly if there were not thousands of black people in New York who liked their records and their performances? Are you serious? I have talked to black people in New York who went to those concerts. Do you think any of them say 'yes we went, but we did not think that Marvin was a Soul singer?' The MOTOWN REVUE went down a storm in Harlem to a virtually complete black audience - the most famous and critical black Soul audience in the world, bar none. That's the fact, mate. It's not one which the Motown 'pop' critics ever take into account though. Oh hang on, maybe the audience at The Apollo were not really Soul fans - by your logic they could not have been, could they? After all, they liked Motown, which is just a 'pop' label. Yeah, right.

The most ironic thing about your theories and refusal to accept Motown as the bedrock of the Northern scene, is in fact the way that you highlight the appeal of the label to white people but fail to realise that this also included a good few thousand in the North of England who loved it with a deep, deep passion. Not only the label, but the onfollowing style of Dance Soul that it spawned in and around Detroit, a style that was subsequently picked up on across the nation by small labels and companies trying to get a bit of the action. How many 'Northern Soul' i.e Dance Soul records made say from 65-69, were made by small companies owned by guy's who had been inspired and influenced directly by GORDY'S success? Incalculable but a huge amount, for sure. You can most certainly count the ultra-esoteric SHRINE within that camp, for a start. Of course Chicago and other cities were developing their own variations on Uptown Dance Soul but it was the Motown Sound that crossed over and transcended the race barrier bigtime, both in acceptance of Black Soul records as popular hits (which is all 'pop' means) and the accompanying financial success. When supposed Soul purists sneer at Motown, they are missing a very serious point. It's as if black artists have somehow committed a sin by being commercially successful. At the end of the day, the Motown stable was so powerful because it contained a fantastic array of genuine musical talent, both sides of the recording desk.

Which is precisely why my statement regarding the existence of the 'Northern Soul' scene is a valid one. The influence of the Motown sound swamped the North of England to the point wherein even The Beatles covered a number of Motown songs. LAMONT DOZIER, SMOKEY ROBINSON and THE HOLLAND BROTHERS were bona fide songwriting geniuses and when people label their material as 'pop', as if it is some type of derogatory comment, it is an insult to the greatest black songwriters of the 20th Century. GORDY of course had other great black talents like IVY JOE and NORMAN WHITFIELD, MICKEY STEVENSON, EARL VAN DYKE, FRANK WILSON et al and a serious examination of the catalogue throws up a huge amount of fantastic bona-fide Soul records. PETE'S comments about 'template' were spot on. The first and second wave of Motown hits opened up people's ears to Dance Soul in the UK and the product that spewed out of Detroit in response refined and extended the elements. The original Northern Soul dance 'sound' that people sweated for as they dug through piles of old records in US warehouses, was that of ten thousand Motown imitators. Another solid fact. The list is bloody endless. As years went on, yes, the scene opened up to a whole host of other musical styles and became the richer for it. But Motown laid down the foundations.

The pioneers who scoured those warehouses were primarily looking for unknown records that carried a Motownesque beat and musical formula. If that beat and the magical caucophany of strings, vibes, tambourines, piano's and honking saxes had never been laid down in the Snakepit, there would have been none such definable recipe for the Northern pioneers to adhere to. The amount of records cut by black Americans in the 60s would have shrunk drastically. There would not have been the huge engine of example, of reaching and touching the dream. Motown was the single biggest influence on the US Soul industry as a whole. As such, whatever scene that would have emerged in the UK built around American Soul Music most certainly would not have been the one that we recognise - in retrospect - as the dance orienated 'Northern Soul' scene of the early to mid 1970s.

A legion of bass players trying to play like JAMES J. An army of drummers hammering out those 4/4 style beats all over the USA. From JJ BARNES downwards, a whole generation of young black guys dreaming of being the next MARVIN GAYE or JIMMY RUFFIN. Ten thousand male groups looking at THE TEMPTATIONS and THE FOUR TOPS and believing that perhaps they could outsing or dance them. Every female group in America thinking that they would be the next MARTHA REEVES AND THE VANDELLAS or THE SUPREMES. You mentioned marketing. Exactly. GORDY marketed his groups in a highly affective and professional manner and the images were taken up by a whole generation of black performers. The smart, slick Motown male artists were a stylistic blueprint for British Mods and the artwork that Motown employed was aped relentlessly. In the mirror and on the dancefloor, British girls copied the Motown female artists.

The black TAMLA MOTOWN label, created specifically for Great Britain became the most beloved black music label in the history of UK Popular Music. The passion for collecting Motown releases, demo's etc and earlier releases via Stateside, Oriole, Fontanna etc, was undoubtedly the single biggest element within the original blueprint of Northern Soul record collecting culture.

In a style sense, in a musical sense and in a historic sense Motown was undoubtedly the initial bedrock of the 'Northern Soul' scene.

(The later disastrous forrays into cabaret land and Theatre glitz, the murky business dealings and bitterness were a great shame but then nobody gets it right forever, look at people like PAUL McCARTNEY).

Edited January 12, 2010 by chorleysoul