Which Era Suppliesthe Best Newies Of Today ?

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Hopefully,this should warm things up a little on a cold,cold night....

Just an observation. As the traditional undiscovered Northern style Sixties sounds are becoming harder and harder to find,[mostly, they seem to be originally unissued items these days],the options for finding Soulfull and Danceable newies would seem to come from two main,[though ,wildly different]directions.

So, i`m interested to know that apart from the smattering of new traditional Sixties Northern style sounds which are being played, whether you lot think the best Newies for the Northern scene come from the early Sixties/R&B camp or the Crossover/70`s/80`s Soul sounds.........

Im just interested to know your opinions. Over to you brothers & sisters .......

Edited January 6, 2010 by Ivor Jones

[Cunnie]

That's easy Ivor & you know I'm right as well.

2010 of course

[Guest Matt Male]

Hopefully,this should warm things up a little on a cold,cold night....

Just an observation. As the traditional undiscovered Northern style Sixties sounds are becoming harder and harder to find,[mostly, they seem to be originally unissued items these days],the options for finding Soulfull and Danceable newies would seem to come from two main,[though ,wildly different]directions.

So, i`m interested to know that apart from the smattering of new traditional Sixties Northern style sounds which are being played, whether you lot think the best Newies for the Northern scene come from the early Sixties/R&B camp or the Crossover/70`s/80`s Soul sounds.........

Im just interested to know your opinions. Over to you brothers & sisters .......

Both camps, the stuff i've heard that's new to my ears over the past year or so are 60s and 70s and some new releases. As it's always been.

[Guest]

Hopefully,this should warm things up a little on a cold,cold night....

Just an observation. As the traditional undiscovered Northern style Sixties sounds are becoming harder and harder to find,[mostly, they seem to be originally unissued items these days],the options for finding Soulfull and Danceable newies would seem to come from two main,[though ,wildly different]directions.

So, i`m interested to know that apart from the smattering of new traditional Sixties Northern style sounds which are being played, whether you lot think the best Newies for the Northern scene come from the early Sixties/R&B camp or the Crossover/70`s/80`s Soul sounds.........

Im just interested to know your opinions. Over to you brothers & sisters .......

Personally, in addition to traditional 60s Northern sounding records, I prefer to hear 70s Soul, and some 80s/90s stuff as opposed to early 60s r/b. The starting point for me has always been that uptown 64 sound and then finding a soulful progression from there. Whilst of course there are some cracking Soul records pre-64, I think in general terms, in what we thought of 'northern' originally, it was that slightly more sophisticated and smoother sound, string arrangements, 4/4 beats etc that emerged from 64 onwards that formed the basis of my individual taste. The popularity of DAVE THORLEY'S 'smile' thread last night was also rather telling, the vast, vast majority of the records chosen and posted being 70s Soul anthems.

I fully respect the r/b fans but to me it just sounds like a totally different genre. How far back do you go? Again I respect guys who are into 'Jump Blues' and all that jive but again, it does not hit me like the gems of Detriot, Chicago and New York from 64 onwards.

So for me, in one word....'CROSSOVER'

PS - Very well-framed question, by the way.

Edited January 6, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest dundeedavie]

I fully respect the r/b fans but to me it just sounds like a totally different genre. How far back do you go?

It is a different genre and as long as the sound is right as far back as you have to , i think the earliest tune i play is '53

[Sean Hampsey]

Love the avatar Martin,

To be honest John, I didn't recognise Pele in that hat (rather than the scarf).

It buries him.

Sean

[Cunnie]

To be honest John, I didn't recognise Pele in that hat (rather than the scarf).

It buries him.

Sean

Bloody hell Sean you're miles behind mate. Changed it twice since Pele the Blade.

Anyway go have a listen to the Driza stuff on your 2010 tips thread that I very nearly posted on this thread instead.

Be interesting to hear your opinion on them mate.

[Paul-s]

1970 - 80 mostly (funk edged soul) but remain open to everything, cos you haven't heard it yet!

[Guest]

It is a different genre and as long as the sound is right as far back as you have to , i think the earliest tune i play is '53

Nothing wrong with that and you do acknowledge it as a different genre but he has asked about

QUOTE

'best Newies for the 'Northern' scene'...

I suppose thats when the debate about 'as long as the sound is right' opens up.

Personally I do not like a lot of the r/b choons that are played, so that sound is not 'right' for me as far as 'northern' newies go, but I accept there are others who positively thrive on it. Each to their own I suppose.

Edited January 7, 2010 by chorleysoul

[manus]

It would be crossover for me - but I do like good raw Black R and B and think that at a point it meets the funky edged 70/80s tunes that Paul mentions. As a point of interest I've noticed that a few people I know on the south coast who have come into the Soul scene from the rockabilly/Rock and Roll scene favour the R and B sound where as I came into it via the Motown/Invictus/Reggae route and would go for the crossover - maybe early influences make a difference.

Cheers

Manus

[Dave Pinch]

70`s/crossover up to 2k soul for me. 90%of the pre 1963 stuff leaves me cold but then again so does 90% of the soulful house/garage stuff

dave

[gazman]

70`s/crossover up to 2k soul for me. 90%of the pre 1963 stuff leaves me cold but then again so does 90% of the soulful house/garage stuff

dave

Exactly my sentiments.

gary

[bri pinch]

68 - 73 PERIOD. BUT AGAIN THAT'S ONLY MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION, OTHERS WILL OBVIOUSLY DIFFER.

BRI PINCH

YORK SOUL CLUB, SAT 6TH FEB

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Just a point to pick up on. I deliberately didnt include a later period than the 70s/80s because i think that although there is still SOME great stuff coming out if you dig deep,by and large.most of them are`nt applicable to the Northern scene for a variety of reasons[im talking about the mainstream Northern scene here,NOT what particularly gets played in modern rooms,which,to my mind is an almost entirely different scene in many ways]....Personally, im open minded about where the sounds come from.......As long as they are good,though, i know for many,new releases are just a step too far from what they regard as appropriate for the scene.

Im sure it`ll come as no surprise to anyone who knows me but my personal taste is predominantly for 70s/80s material...........

With the continued blurring of lines, the musical scenery has been changing somewhat and it is this that i have found a personally interesting development for the Northern Soul scene.......

[Pete S]

Well it's not the f*cking 70's or 80's is it?

All the new discoveries are coming from 1958 to 65 and so it should be. What the hell has any 80's music got to do with Northern Soul?

Edited January 7, 2010 by Pete S

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Well it's not the f*cking 70's or 80's is it?

All the new discoveries are coming from 1958 to 65 and so it should be. What the hell has any 80's music got to do with Northern Soul?

Yep, your right Pete. In the main, 80`s stuff has very little to offer the mainstream Northern scene just odd tracks here or there.I suppose if any,its mainly from the very early 80s. Are there really discoveries coming from the late 50`s then ? Christ, that is old......

[Pete S]

Yep, your right Pete. In the main, 80`s stuff has very little to offer the mainstream Northern scene just odd tracks here or there.I suppose if any,its mainly from the very early 80s. Are there really discoveries coming from the late 50`s then ? Christ, that is old......

Loads - but you need to speak to the experts.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Loads - but you need to speak to the experts.

I`ll take your word for it Pete. Quite a bit too early to be appropriate for me im afraid. While i would tend to agree with you regarding 80`s material, its got to be a different story with the 70s stuff .....theres so much great 70s Soul with Northern appeal.... Particularly now.

[Jordirip]

Loads - but you need to speak to the experts.

Back when I was into 'Northern' in the 70's and early 80's, I don't ever remember hearing any 50's stuff. It just didn't have the right sound. The earliest tunes I remember being played were very early 60's and they weren't really my cuppa. Proper 'northern' for me then was '65 - '67, hard 4x4 beat, vibes, echoing strings, sax and vocal harmonies, with other exceptions from later years that had the right sound and atmosphere. However, there were always 70's things being played and even the odd current 80's thing like Keni Burke's "Let Somebody Love you" being played, but I don't remember the 50's stuff. May be I was going to places that didn't play that or is it that as the years have gone by Popcorn and R&B has just been integrated into the scene and has become known as 'northern'?

Jordi

[Pete S]

Back when I was into 'Northern' in the 70's and early 80's, I don't ever remember hearing any 50's stuff. It just didn't have the right sound. The earliest tunes I remember being played were very early 60's and they weren't really my cuppa. Proper 'northern' for me then was '65 - '67, hard 4x4 beat, vibes, echoing strings, sax and vocal harmonies, with other exceptions from later years that had the right sound and atmosphere. However, there were always 70's things being played and even the odd current 80's thing like Keni Burke's "Let Somebody Love you" being played, but I don't remember the 50's stuff. May be I was going to places that didn't play that or is it that as the years have gone by Popcorn and R&B has just been integrated into the scene and has become known as 'northern'?

Jordi

It's just being tugged both ways as far as I'm concerned but rhe R&B is the real roots of the music we know as Northern Soul whereas crossover and modern could be subtitled "where it all started to go wrong" and the sound is so different to 'traditional' Northern that people are having to go back further and further. Ten years ago I'd have laughed if anyone said they'd be playing 50's records - now I can understand why. I don't think you missed them being played, I never heard them either, but I think you would nowadays.

[Pete S]

I`ll take your word for it Pete. Quite a bit too early to be appropriate for me im afraid. While i would tend to agree with you regarding 80`s material, its got to be a different story with the 70s stuff .....theres so much great 70s Soul with Northern appeal.... Particularly now.

Northern appeal to whom though?

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Back when I was into 'Northern' in the 70's and early 80's, I don't ever remember hearing any 50's stuff. It just didn't have the right sound. The earliest tunes I remember being played were very early 60's and they weren't really my cuppa. Proper 'northern' for me then was '65 - '67, hard 4x4 beat, vibes, echoing strings, sax and vocal harmonies, with other exceptions from later years that had the right sound and atmosphere. However, there were always 70's things being played and even the odd current 80's thing like Keni Burke's "Let Somebody Love you" being played, but I don't remember the 50's stuff. May be I was going to places that didn't play that or is it that as the years have gone by Popcorn and R&B has just been integrated into the scene and has become known as 'northern'?

Jordi

Yes Jordi, totally agree. But that just underlines the point of the thread.........Its too early [for my ears] to be lumped in with the traditional northern stuff. Ive always felt it was a direct result of the Mod/60s only enthusiast`s reluctance to accept later Soul sounds and end up going further back in time for musical pleasure. Im not knocking it if thats what some want but its just not for me.

Regarding 80s , i remember Glenda Mcloud was a huge Northern sound for Clarkie@ 100Club,[think Dave Thorley and Stuart Cosgrove had copies as well]. Larry Wedgeworth`s" No More Games" as well was a biggie for Ian........Respect for the Clarkster.......

Great Days.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Northern appeal to whom though?

Theres any number of people interested in these sounds Pete. I agree that the scene is being tugged in totally different directions[that was the whole point of the thread Pete if you look at the beginning],though its totally down to personal taste as to what is the right course to take.

Would i be correct in assuming you dont care for much of the 70s stuff Pete . I can also have a lot of sympathy for the argument that the 70s was where Soul music in general started to lose its way but to my ears[and i know to many others too], there are simply too many great records from this period outweighing the bad....

[Pete S]

Theres any number of people interested in these sounds Pete. I agree that the scene is being tugged in totally different directions[that was the whole point of the thread Pete if you look at the beginning],though its totally down to personal taste as to what is the right course to take.

Would i be correct in assuming you dont care for much of the 70s stuff Pete . I can also have a lot of sympathy for the argument that the 70s was where Soul music in general started to lose its way but to my ears[and i know to many others too], there are simply too many great records from this period outweighing the bad....

Not saying there aren't, but how many people apart from the vocal minority on here, would want to hear them out as opposed to traditional sounds?

You say, or some people say, that R&B is getting too far away from what is known as Northern Soul - but to me, the 70's sounds (not all of them obviously) have got nothing to do with the music I fell in love with, the real 60's soul sound...thats all...I don't like it because it's not Northern

[Ted Massey]

Back when I was into 'Northern' in the 70's and early 80's, I don't ever remember hearing any 50's stuff. It just didn't have the right sound. The earliest tunes I remember being played were very early 60's and they weren't really my cuppa. Proper 'northern' for me then was '65 - '67, hard 4x4 beat, vibes, echoing strings, sax and vocal harmonies, with other exceptions from later years that had the right sound and atmosphere. However, there were always 70's things being played and even the odd current 80's thing like Keni Burke's "Let Somebody Love you" being played, but I don't remember the 50's stuff. May be I was going to places that didn't play that or is it that as the years have gone by Popcorn and R&B has just been integrated into the scene and has become known as 'northern'?

Jordi

Keni Burke what a record

[Guest posstot]

RnB is NOT a different genre to soul (of the sixties variety){NORTHERN}. It's actually one and the very fooking same. what is different is this Studio 57 gay disco jazz funk, commercial crap and the people who claim it to be "NORTHERN". (SOUL MUSIC)

As for which has given and which is giving us the most "NEWIES"...It can only be 60's and the now so-called Rnb scene where the best music is brought to light today. The RnB scene, to me seems to be a "FUNDEMENATAL" RNB/SOUL music movement trying to give back to the people it's music. As the rest of the Northern scene seems to be being taken away from its original nucleas by a load of pop wallies who think disco is what the northern scene is about, So stop silly and put smooth f.m on.

Offensive language removed.

Can ask member not to do it again & to stick to site rules.

[Pete S]

RnB is NOT a different genre to soul (of the sixties variety){NORTHERN}. It's actually one and the very fooking same. what is different is this Studio 57 gay disco jazz funk, commercial crap and the people who claim it to be "NORTHERN". (SOUL MUSIC)

As for which has given and which is giving us the most "NEWIES"...It can only be 60's and the now so-called Rnb scene where the best music is brought to light today. The RnB scene, to me seems to be a "FUNDEMENATAL" RNB/SOUL music movement trying to give back to the people it's music. As the rest of the Northern scene seems to be being taken away from its original nucleas by a load of pop wallies who think disco is what the northern scene is about, So stop silly and put smooth f.m on.

That's what I was saying, though not so aggresively.

[Guest]

RnB is NOT a different genre to soul (of the sixties variety){NORTHERN}. It's actually one and the very fooking same. what is different is this Studio 57 gay disco jazz funk, commercial crap and the people who claim it to be "NORTHERN". (SOUL MUSIC)

As for which has given and which is giving us the most "NEWIES"...It can only be 60's and the now so-called Rnb scene where the best music is brought to light today. The RnB scene, to me seems to be a "FUNDEMENATAL" RNB/SOUL music movement trying to give back to the people it's music. As the rest of the Northern scene seems to be being taken away from its original nucleas by a load of pop wallies who think disco is what the northern scene is about, So stop silly and put smooth f.m on.

Offensive language removed.

Can ask member not to do it again & to stick to site rules.

Of course we can play semantics about the word 'genre' and what it really represents or constitutes. But to try and purport that the style of pre-64 r/b that is currently played, represents the same stylistic components as the type of 'Northern' Soul that JORDIRIP has descibed perfectly in a previous post is utter bollocks mate. Like I have said, each to their own but there are large amounts of people who whilst acknowledging the fundamental chronological relevance of the r/b stuff, do not particularly like those records or that style in general. (Of course, vice versa with 70s Soul and thats the crux of the problem - There is simply not ONE suitable answer to the original question posed in this thread!)

However, the transformation from r/b, to what became known as 'Soul' particularly the 'Uptown' dance orienated variety spearheaded by Motown, is historically documented in countless musical histories. The evolution of Black Music from the raw edged r/b towards a style that elevated the Motor City sound to the World's pop charts, is a solid fact and to pretend that there are not significant stylistic and atmospheric differences between these forms of black music is ridiculous.

What I find most interesting here, is the parallel between the original Twisted Wheel argument in the 60s and this contempoary counterpart. In a lengthy debate on SS about ROGER EAGLE'S motives for leaving the Wheel, the subject of his prefence for gritty r/b was raised constantly. This at odds with what he saw as a more commercial type of sound (actually U.S Uptown Soul) as then preferred by the younger Wheel Dancers. This musical evolution is supposedly behind EAGLE'S departure from the scene. Ok. So here we are in 2010. The guys at the Wheel actually went forward by adopting the Uptown dancers and the Northern Soul scene of the 70s emerged from that adoption and passion for the dance music of Detroit, Chicago etc...

So how is a progression achieved by going backwards yet again to music that supposedly created the original argument back in the mid 60s? It is not. It is a backwards retrospective movement to the extreme and when people start talking about a supposed multitude of 50s tracks that have been played on the Northern Soul scene, the debate becomes laughable! I think we all would be able to run off a few dozen each if there had ever really been any significant number of 50s records played over the last 30 years. In fact, the only time I started to think 50s records were appearing was when people started playing early 60s r/b that sounded mighty close to rock'n'roll which is fine if you like that type of thing, but a real turn off if your bag is tuneful, melodic 60s Dance Soul or 70s crossover movers.

As for the South Coast Rockabilly theory, I am originally from Southampton and there has always been a solid hardcore of Northern fans from our city, going right back to the early 70s. The musical tastes of the original 70s Northern fans in our area always veered from 64-70s and onwards. It is only in comparitively very recent years that younger guys have started playing r/b in the area and personally I think the age factor has a little to do with it.

Yes, there were Rockabillys on the 80s club scene and yes, some of them crossed over and became Soul fans but the majority of us started off with Motown influenced Detroit and still treasure that route. In actual fact, it is some of the guys and DJ's who have come off the scooter scene in the south that have really championed r/b not ex-Rockabillies! Finally, to dismiss 70s Soul as 'gay disco studio 57 crap' belies a prejudice and an ignorance that demeans this debate and a very cursory dig will throw up countless Soul gems from the 70s, that are much closer to the original Motown sound and spirit than the early 60s r/b stuff.

Peace to us all.

Edited January 8, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Pete S]

Of course we can play semantics about the word 'genre' and what it really represents or constitutes. But to try and purport that the style of pre-64 r/b that is currently played, represents the same stylistic components as the type of 'Northern' Soul that JORDIRIP has descibed perfectly in a previous post is utter bollocks mate. Like I have said, each to their own but there are large amounts of people who whilst acknowledging the fundamental chronological relevance of the r/b stuff, do not particularly like those records or that style in general. (Of course, vice versa with 70s Soul and thats the crux of the problem - There is simply not ONE suitable answer to the original question posed in this thread!)

However, the transformation from r/b, to what became known as 'Soul' particularly the 'Uptown' dance orienated variety spearheaded by Motown, is historically documented in countless musical histories. The evolution of Black Music from the raw edged r/b towards a style that elevated the Motor City sound to the World's pop charts, is a solid fact and to pretend that there are not significant stylistic and atmospheric differences between these forms of black music is ridiculous.

What I find most interesting here, is the parallel between the original Twisted Wheel argument in the 60s and this contempoary counterpart. In a lengthy debate on SS about ROGER EAGLE'S motives for leaving the Wheel, the subject of his prefence for gritty r/b was raised constantly. This at odds with what he saw as a more commercial type of sound (actually U.S Uptown Soul) as then preferred by the younger Wheel Dancers. This musical evolution is supposedly behind EAGLE'S departure from the scene. Ok. So here we are in 2010. The guys at the Wheel actually went forward by adopting the Uptown dancers and the Northern Soul scene of the 70s emerged from that adoption and passion for the dance music of Detroit, Chicago etc...

So how is a progression achieved by going backwards yet again to music that supposedly created the original argument back in the mid 60s? It is not. It is a backwards retrospective movement to the extreme and when people start talking about a supposed multitude of 50s tracks that have been played on the Northern Soul scene, the debate becomes laughable! I think we all would be able to run off a few dozen each if there had ever really been any significant number of 50s records played over the last 30 years. In fact, the only time I started to think 50s records were appearing was when people started playing early 60s r/b that sounded mighty close to rock'n'roll which is fine if you like that type of thing, but a real turn off if your bag is tuneful, melodic 60s Dance Soul or 70s crossover movers.

As for the South Coast Rockabilly theory, I am originally from Southampton and there has always been a solid hardcore of Northern fans from our city, going right back to the early 70s. The musical tastes of the original 70s Northern fans in our area always veered from 64-70s and onwards. It is only in comparitively very recent years that younger guys have started playing r/b in the area and personally I think the age factor has a little to do with it.

Yes, there were Rockabillys on the 80s club scene and yes, some of them crossed over and became Soul fans but the majority of us started off with Motown influenced Detroit and still treasure that route. In actual fact, it is some of the guys and DJ's who have come off the scooter scene in the south that have really championed r/b not ex-Rockabillies! Finally, to dismiss 70s Soul as 'gay disco studio 57 crap' belies a prejudice and an ignorance that demeans this debate and a very cursory dig will throw up countless Soul gems from the 70s, that are much closer to the original Motown sound and spirit than the early 60s r/b stuff.

Peace to us all.

Yes but what's your point?

Edited January 8, 2010 by Pete S

[manus]

Err I wasn't putting forward a "Rockabilly theory" I was making the observation that a couple of people I know whose early exposure to Rockabilly seems to have stayed with them and maybe influences their tastes now at Soul events and how my own Motown/Invictus/Reggae background influences mine. It's was just an observation not a theory and most likely bollocks but you seem to be agreeing with it when you use the example of "Scooter boys" and their influences. There's plenty of people down here on the South Coast who have come the Motown route I agree and lot's of them still around at events.

Personally I see RB/Funk/Uptown/70s/Modern as as all interlinked and I like listening and buying from all eras/types - there's lots of good stuff being released right now. If pinned down to actual favourite periods or types it would be classic midtempo 60/70s and deep/southern but I'll listen to anything good.

Cheers

Manus

[Jordirip]

what is different is this Studio 57 gay disco jazz funk, commercial crap and the people who claim it to be "NORTHERN". (SOUL MUSIC)

As the rest of the Northern scene seems to be being taken away from its original nucleas by a load of pop wallies who think disco is what the northern scene is about, So stop silly and put smooth f.m on.

What a load of paranoid, ignorant shite. Put yer pitchfork away.

[Pete S]

What a load of paranoid, ignorant shite. Put yer pitchfork away.

[Hermanthegerman]

What a load of paranoid, ignorant shite. Put yer pitchfork away.

Why? He´s right!

[Jordirip]

Ha Ha!! That's exactly what I had in my mind Pete.

[Jordirip]

Why? He´s right!

Oh no he isn't.

[Hermanthegerman]

[Jordirip]

Don't go all Rene Magritte on me.

[Guest]

Yes but what's your point?

There is a number of them contained in that text Pete, I would of thought they were self evident.

1. There are definite, significant 'style' differnces between earlier r/b and 60S Uptown Soul. This will result in some people liking r/b and some not. People like BERRY GORDY understood that difference lucidly and exploited it to the maximum.

2. Trying to pretend they are the same styles of music simply because they are in the main, created by Black Americans is stupid and akin to saying that British beat pop is the same as British progressive Rock, simply because it is made by white British 60s/early 70s Musicians.

3. Where there is a serious difference in tase and affection for musical styles, ( which there clearly is) it is impossible to answer the question 'from which era should the newies come' to a collective mutually satisfying conclusion. It will simply evolve into an argument, usually with bitter overtones, as me and you well know!

4. As regards 'Rockabilly's, I well remember in the late 70s and early 80s when 50s clothing was all the rage on the South Coast, I wore it myself for years, but very few genuine Rockabilly's have ever migrated from that scene onto the Rare Soul scene. The genuine guys are as passionate about Rockabilly as we are about Soul. R/B has been much more the taste of guys from the scooter scene in the South. Again, there is a distinct diffence between genuine Rockabilly's and Scooter Boys, so no, I am not agreeing with our friend's point on that.

5. Comments like 'Gay disco' are ignorant and redundant and I'm not expanding any further on that.

Point 3 should probably be Point 4, but hopefully this gives you the gist?

Edited January 8, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Pete S]

There is a number of them contained in that text Pete, I would of thought they were self evident.

1. There are definite, significant 'style' differnces between earlier r/b and 60S Uptown Soul. This will result in some people liking r/b and some not.

People like BERRY GORDY understood that difference lucidly and exploited it to the maximum.

2. Trying to pretend they are the same styles of music simply because they are in the main, created by Black Americans is stupid and akin to saying that British beat pop is the same as British progressive Rock, simply because it is made by white British 60s/early 70s Musicians.

3. Where there is a serious difference in tase and affection for musical styles, ( which there clearly is) it is impossible to answer the question 'from which era should the newies come' to a collective mutually satisfying conclusion. It will simply evolve into an argument, usually with bitter overtones, as me and you well know!

4. As regards 'Rockabilly's, I well remember in the late 70s and early 80s when 50s clothing was all the rage on the South Coast, I wore it myself for years, but very few genuine Rockabilly's have ever migrated from that scene onto the Rare Soul scene. The genuine guys are as passionate about Rockabilly as we are about Soul. R/B has been much more the taste of guys from the scooter scene in the South. Again, there is a distinct diffence between genuine Rockabillies and Scooter Boys, so no, I am not agreeing with our friend's point on that.

5. Comments like 'Gay disco' are ignorant and redundant and I'm not expanding any further on that.

Point 3 should probably be Point 4, but hopefully this gives you the gist?

The thing is, you mention Roger Eagle and how he became disenchanted when the faster style records became more popular than the R&B that he championed, but then you say that the R&B that he championed in today's context should not be championed by the latest generation of soulies because it's not 'proper' Northern Soul.

As for the term Gay Disco - why is this ignorant and redundant, a lot of 70's disco records are exactly like that. Shit disco records. People love throwing the word ignorant around don't they, it makes them seem more intellectually superior to us mere mortals who dislike gay disco music.

[manus]

There is a number of them contained in that text Pete, I would of thought they were self evident.

1. There are definite, significant 'style' differnces between earlier r/b and 60S Uptown Soul. This will result in some people liking r/b and some not. People like BERRY GORDY understood that difference lucidly and exploited it to the maximum.

2. Trying to pretend they are the same styles of music simply because they are in the main, created by Black Americans is stupid and akin to saying that British beat pop is the same as British progressive Rock, simply because it is made by white British 60s/early 70s Musicians.

3. Where there is a serious difference in tase and affection for musical styles, ( which there clearly is) it is impossible to answer the question 'from which era should the newies come' to a collective mutually satisfying conclusion. It will simply evolve into an argument, usually with bitter overtones, as me and you well know!

4. As regards 'Rockabilly's, I well remember in the late 70s and early 80s when 50s clothing was all the rage on the South Coast, I wore it myself for years, but very few genuine Rockabilly's have ever migrated from that scene onto the Rare Soul scene. The genuine guys are as passionate about Rockabilly as we are about Soul. R/B has been much more the taste of guys from the scooter scene in the South. Again, there is a distinct diffence between genuine Rockabilly's and Scooter Boys, so no, I am not agreeing with our friend's point on that.

5. Comments like 'Gay disco' are ignorant and redundant and I'm not expanding any further on that.

Point 3 should probably be Point 4, but hopefully this gives you the gist?

You seem to be missing my point I only used the Rockabilly pair as an example I could have used other examples such as Scooter boys but they sprang to mind when I originally posted. So forget the Rockabillys if you can and think of what I was actually saying which was about early influences and their possible longevity.

Cheers

Our Friend ( no longer in the North)

[Hermanthegerman]

There is a number of them contained in that text Pete, I would of thought they were self evident.

2. Trying to pretend they are the same styles of music simply because they are in the main, created by Black Americans is stupid and akin to saying that British beat pop is the same as British progressive Rock, simply because it is made by white British 60s/early 70s Musicians.

It springs to mind this point more likely applies to 60´s Soul compared to 70´s funk/disco/whateveryouwannacallit:whistling:

[Guest]

It springs to mind this point more likely applies to 60´s Soul compared to 70´s funk/disco/whateveryouwannacallit:whistling:

Disagree totally. I am not talking about classic 70s 'Funk' which is another style completely. Nor what would be recognised as blatant 120 beats per minute plus 'Disco'. Why is it that people insist on throwing in all these musical red herrings whenever this subject arises?

Personally I think there are myriad 70s SOUL records that are far nearer to classic mid-60s stuff, especially 60s midtempo, in terms of style.

The productions might be a little more sophisticated and smoother, the high hats a little faster in some cases but generally the musical/technical components are similar. Tuneful, light pop/jazz flavoured chord patterms with big hook sing a long choruses punctuated by gospel style vocals with secular themes. I.E Records made by Soul Artists trying to have crossover Pop hits at the same time...Records like THE IMPRESSIONS 'Miracle Woman, RONNIE DYSON 'I think I'll tell her', BARABARA HALL 'VIP', PATTI AUSTIN 'Cant forget the one I love', GENE DOZIER 'You're the best girl', TYRONE DAVIS and AL GREEN'S early to mid 70s stuff, much of the Invictus catalogue, lots of the early 70s Motown output, even records like CANDI STATON and THE BLACKBYRDS and million sellers like THE O'JAYS 'Love train', all those type of records are clearly within the same style arena as a lot of 60s records. They are uptempo, melodic dance Soul records. There are literally countless examples.

Early 60s R/B can be defined as a rawer, grittier, less melodic sound, wherein the chord patterns used are distinctly different and more blues flavoured albeit at a pace, than those employed within 60s Uptempo/midtempo and 70s crossover Soul. Funker, jerkier rythym patterms are more apparent and there is less emphasis on melody. The blues flavored elements ensure that certain records bear a resemblance to what people would recognise as a rock'n'roll style, R/B being of course the true root of that style of music anyway. R/B is essentially a 50s style music. Therein lies the problem. Whatever people say, for a huge amount of people, that technical jump as employed by SMOKEY, HDH, BERRY GORDY, DON DAVIS and all the other exponents of mid 60s Uptown Soul was what attracted so many people to what became known as 'Northern Soul' in the first place. Trying to tell us that R/B records are the same musical style as Uptown 60s Soul simply won't wash.

Edited January 8, 2010 by chorleysoul

[Guest]

You seem to be missing my point I only used the Rockabilly pair as an example I could have used other examples such as Scooter boys but they sprang to mind when I originally posted. So forget the Rockabillys if you can and think of what I was actually saying which was about early influences and their possible longevity.

Cheers

Our Friend ( no longer in the North)

Fair enough mate.

[Pete S]

Disagree totally. I am not talking about classic 70s 'Funk' which is another style completely. Nor what would be recognised as blatant 120 beats per minute plus blatant 'Disco'. Why is it that people insist on throwing in all these musical red herrings whenever this subject arises?

Personally I think there are myriad 70s SOUL records that are far nearer to classic mid-60s stuff, especially 60s midtempo, in terms of style.

The productions might be a little more sophisticated and smoother, the high hats a little faster in some cases but generally the musical/technical components are similar. Tuneful, light pop/jazz flavoured chord patterms with big hook sing a long choruses punctuated by gospel style vocals with secular themes. I.E Records made by Soul Artists trying to have crossover Pop hits at the same time...Records like THE IMPRESSIONS 'Miracle Woman, RONNIE DYSON 'I think I'll tell her', BARABARA HALL 'VIP', PATTI AUSTIN 'Cant forget the one I love', GENE DOZIER 'You're the best girl', TYRONE DAVIS and AL GREEN'S early to mid 70s stuff, much of the Invictus catalogue, lots of the early 70s Motown output, even records like CANDI STATON and THE BLACKBYRDS and million sellers like THE O'JAYS 'Love train', all those type of records are clearly within the same style arena as a lot of 60s records. They are uptempo, melodic dance Soul records. There are literally countless examples.

Early 60s R/B can be defined as a rawer, grittier, less melodic sound, wherein the chord patterns used are distinctly different and more blues flavoured albeit at a pace, than those employed within 60s Uptempo/midtempo and 70s crossover Soul. Funker, jerkier rythym patterms are more apparent and there is less emphasis on melody. The blues flavored elements ensure that certain records bear a resemblance to what people would recognise as a rock'n'roll style, R/B being of course the true root of that style of music anyway. R/B is essentially a 50s style music. Therein lies the problem. Whatever people say, for a huge amount of people, that technical jump as employed by SMOKEY, HDH, BERRY GORDY, DON DAVIS and all the other exponents of mid 60s Uptown Soul was what attracted so many people to what became known as 'Northern Soul' in the first place. Trying to tell us that R/B records are the same musical style as Uptown 60s Soul simply won't wash.

It'll wash cleaner than your analogy that 70's soul is more akin to the classic 60's soul though. I just can't see it, sorry, and the litmus test is that IF it did relate to 60's soul, then I would immediately open my ears to it and like it wouldn't I, which is what automatically happens when I hear a 60's sounding record. When I hear a 70's sounding record, I just shut down because the elements that make great 60's soul music have been replaced by something else.

One of your examples, the O'Jays "Love Train" has absolutely nothing in common with 60's styles whatsoever, nothing - apart from the vocalists.

n.b. this is in fact akin to you telling me that because I like 60's rocksteady that I should enjoy 70's roots reggae, but I detest 70's roots reggae because - and here we go again - it sounds nothing like the 60's music!

Edited January 8, 2010 by Pete S

[manus]

Fair enough mate.

[Paul-s]

Well it's not the f*cking 70's or 80's is it?

All the new discoveries are coming from 1958 to 65 and so it should be. What the hell has any 80's music got to do with Northern Soul?

Your dogma never ceases to amaze Pete. Well done, an example for all to follow.

70s used to feature quite a lot back at Wigan, Cleethorpes and everywhere else?

It seems that those who stopped listening after 1868...whoops sorry i mean 1968, have adopted a know it all, heard it all attitude, that seems totally contrary to ANY scene where people purportedly love music.

The best new discoveries are coming out of the 70s and the old guard (you) seem to be going back to 50s Rockabilly....

Each to his own, but maybe you should try listening to it all (or at least some) before making such sweeping and fascile statements.

[Pete S]

Your dogma never ceases to amaze Pete. Well done, an example for all to follow.

70s used to feature quite a lot back at Wigan, Cleethorpes and everywhere else?

It seems that those who stopped listening after 1868...whoops sorry i mean 1968, have adopted a know it all, heard it all attitude, that seems totally contrary to ANY scene where people purportedly love music.

The best new discoveries are coming out of the 70s and the old guard (you) seem to be going back to 50s Rockabilly....

Each to his own, but maybe you should try listening to it all (or at least some) before making such sweeping and fascile statements.

Ah here he comes, thinks he's got someone he can pick on now.

It's not my fault if you haven't got a clue what constitutes northern soul Paul.

Where are all these fantastic discoveries then?

These ultra obscure things you keep banging on about which nobody else has ever heard of, never get played anywhere and have as much chance of "going big" as I do of being president of the Green party?

The 70's that used to get played at those venues you mention, which you probably pretend you went to, were in the main uptempo 4/4 dancers. Not funk or crossover.

[Epic]

On this thread there is a reference to "gay disco" being played on the Northern Scene. Can someone please give me the titles of some of these records & where,who & when has played them.

[Paul-s]

Ah here he comes, thinks he's got someone he can pick on now.

It's not my fault if you haven't got a clue what constitutes northern soul Paul.

Where are all these fantastic discoveries then?

These ultra obscure things you keep banging on about which nobody else has ever heard of, never get played anywhere and have as much chance of "going big" as I do of being president of the Green party?

The 70's that used to get played at those venues you mention, which you probably pretend you went to, were in the main uptempo 4/4 dancers. Not funk or crossover.

Ask Gill Cousins or Cliffe Steele if i pretended to go to venues Petey 4/4 what a load of toss!Just cos thats the only beat you can count in mate, dont presume its the only one that exists.

Not picking on anyone, just your outrageously uninformed and biggotted statements. Jonathon Capree (you probably aint heard it cos of your dinosaur approach to music) is one of those new discoveries of mine that people dance to at the moment. Jesus, the further you get out of touch , the more you grasp at the past because you rely on selling a load of banged out oldies! Update Pete, open those cloth ears and do a bit of research. At least the proper record dealers have a modicum of knowledge and keep up with things. Your a closed book that everyone has already read. zzzzzz

[Paul-s]

Me pretending to be at a venue....