Who Discovered What ?

[JOHNNYBETCHA]

i was assured recently that skiing in the snow was first played at the staffordshire yeoman

[Anoraks Corner]

Just had an alternative cut of In Love (with horns ) e mailed to me from the man himself......Tony Galla.Might play it on Saturday.

Has he got the instrumental (either take) still?

[Ian Dewhirst]

I sold one last year for £25 and it wasn't easy.

Blimey. No demand then? Probably too fast for today's audiences......

Mind you, such a great little Detroit label. I thought it was worth a lot more than £25...........

Ian D

[Guest]

Blimey. No demand then? Probably too fast for today's audiences......

Mind you, such a great little Detroit label. I thought it was worth a lot more than £25...........

Ian D

I like it,just skint at the time i think i've see em for £40 on lists.

[Guest southpaw]

Hi all, looking for some info on Billy Miranda - You could have had a good thing going, who discoverd it/played it out first brilliant tune

[Anoraks Corner]

Hi all, looking for some info on Billy Miranda - You could have had a good thing going, who discoverd it/played it out first brilliant tune

Rob Marriott spin?

[Guest Mrs Simsy]

Just had an alternative cut of In Love (with horns ) e mailed to me from the man himself......Tony Galla.Might play it on Saturday. Got a styrene and paper label of the Perigents....always thought it was a boot.

Really?

Always loved that record.

Wish i could have been around for some of these 30p specials!:lol:

[Chalky]

Rob Marriott spin?

hi David. Thought it was earlier than Rob? Flip is great too.

[Rick Cooper]

So could have been you maybe Rick that discovered it. As for who broke it ... the mystery continues ..

Really? Never heard Keb play that back then. Remember saying to Joan that it was a good tune at Buzzard in about 84 - she said "it was about four years ago". So maybe he played it early 80's (Stafford?) and I missed it. Just surprised as he complained about stuff that wasn't soul - hated Bobby Valentin etc...

I definately could not be said to have discovered Tony Galla just because I owned a copy in 73. I'm sure someone must have argued before that ''discovering'' a record means getting it heard or talked about. For Tony Galla I thought Keb was supposed to have been responsible (or guilty).

I don't know if it's been mentioned before that Tony Galla was a big record in the Baltimore/Pitsburgh area in the late 60s, can anyone confirrm this.

Going back a step how about giving credit for discovering records to some of the record labels owners/employees from the 1960s and early 70s who issued US records that had not been chart hits.Labels such as Sue ,Action ,Pama ,President ,Track ,Beacon, Soul City all have some big early records to their credit. Also employess at EMI, Decca and Pye who managed to get loads of great stuff issued. Names such as Trevor Churchill, John Abbey and Dave Godin deserve a mention.

Rick Cooper

[Sheldonsoul]

who found the likes of the cbs stuff eg shane martin,lynne randell,chapter 5

[Ian Dewhirst]

who found the likes of the cbs stuff eg shane martin,lynne randell,chapter 5

Levine for Lynn Randell and Shane Martin I believe.......not sure about Chapter 5.

Ian D

Edited August 5, 2010 by Ian Dewhirst

[Guest Perception]

There has been many threads about classic 70s discoeries (never boring, keep 'em coming), but I've always wondered who discovered more recent plays ie Ace Spectrum, David Ruffin (Rode By The Place), Exportatios I Want you, 5 Royales, etc..

I got a 100 different 45rpm brand new releases from the USA all unknown to me (circa 1980). I liked a one by Prince Philip Mitchell called "I'm So Happy" on Atlantic.

At an alldayer I mentioned it to Soul Sam who had never heard of it. I noticed a few months later he was playing it in his spot, so I like to think I first introduced it to the Northern Scene.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Perception

[Rick Cooper]

Levine for Lynn Randell and Shane Martin I believe.......not sure about Chapter 5.

Ian D

About 15 US copies of Shane Martin turned up in a parcel of singles at Global records in the early 70s. I'd never heard it or played it so it went on the ''pop''listing sent out to dealers. Within a day Pep from Wolverhampton had ordered 10 copies. This rang alarm bells as Pep only ordered soul singles. I don't think Pep got any , well not at 22p. So Pep may have discovered it or someone in the W Midlands knew it. If Levine had played it first I probably would have known it , although Levine had records in his DJ box that he never played. UK issue collectors such as Dave Stubbs may have known of the CBS tracks before any DJs played them.

Rick

[Ian Dewhirst]

I got a 100 different 45rpm brand new releases from the USA all unknown to me (circa 1980). I liked a one by Prince Philip Mitchell called "I'm So Happy" on Atlantic.

At an alldayer I mentioned it to Soul Sam who had never heard of it. I noticed a few months later he was playing it in his spot, so I like to think I first introduced it to the Northern Scene.

Well, definitely a good call and well done for mentioning it to Sam but many records had been around for years and were 'known' to DJ's, Dealers and Collectors for years including "I'm So Happy" (which was strangely considered to be too traditional and obvious at the time when it first came into my conciousness). I think I heard it on the "Top Of The Line" album first and was surprised that such a traditional Northern type production was still being made in the late 70's. I actually thought "One On One" from the previous album was a goodie too.

Every record eventually has it's time it seems to me which is why it's always hard to say who discovered what. Travelling around the country doing gigs in the mid 70's showed me that there could be massive variations musically across the North. Remember that back then, there was no internet, no mobiles or texts, the motorway network was in it's infancy and not that many young people even had cars. So anyone with a car, who happened to be a DJ with an insatiable passion for rare soul and a comprehensive network of record contacts had a definite advantage. So on my travels I'd quite often have someone say, "it's a monster in Derby" or "it's massive in Rhyll" or "it packed the floor at York last week" etc, etc, so I'd always investigate a local biggie to see whether it had potential to go bigger elsewhere. For instance, Ila Vann's "You Made Me This Way" broke in Nottingham long before it took off everywhere else and you'd see a similar pattern around the country with different records. As an example, I heard Pep play the Yums Yums "Gonna Be A Big Thing" at an all-dayer in Birmingham and realised that if anyone in Manchester, Wigan, Leeds, Sheffield etc, etc heard the record it would be absolutely huge everywhere. So I made it my mission to track one down and sure enough it went massive the second people heard it. Likewise Porgy & The Monarchs which Levine had written about in a Black Music column and which I decided to track down 'cos I liked his description of it (although I never heard him play it). Likewise, I bought the 'first' copies of "Send Him Back" and "I Go To Pieces" in Burnley, the 'first' copy of Lou Pride in Louth, the 'first' copy of The Four Perfections in Leeds, the 'first' copy of Al De Lory in Petersborough and the 'first' copy of Lenny Curtis in Bradford. Out of those the only one that I can actually 'claim' as a genuine discovery is Lenny Curtis 'cos that was a genuine unknown find on a market stall (and on a label that was considered to be only 'Doo Wop' at the time). All the others had already been heard by the guys who sold them to me.

So, now that we're multiple pages into a long-running thread, I'm coming to the conclusion that a more accurate title for the thread should be "Who Broke What" if the thread is about the key factors which propelled certain records to the top of the tree and mass popularity then, more often than not, the people who actually 'discovered' the records were that vast band of unsung heroes - the small town collector who every so often, will stumble into a genuinely brilliant record but be frustrated by the fact that it was lost or ignored just laying in his/her collection. That's where natural sharks like me would swoop in, realise the potential of the record and then beg, steal or borrow the track, 'break' the record on a big scale and claim the credit. Which is probably fair enough I reckon.

I remember hearing Clyde McPhatter's "Please Give Me One More Chance" and the Ebony's "I'm So Glad I'm Me" on someone else's cassette tape whilst driving back from Sale Mecca one Friday morning in the early hours in the mid 70's and the effect that Clyde McPhatter had on me was so huge that I almost crashed the car at 80mph on the M62. I think Andy Simpson and Bob from Bradford were with me and I'm sure they'll remember how close to death we all were.

So I tracked down a copy of the Clyde McPhatter album the next day. Sadly the only place it really broke was Sheffield Samanthas at the time. Because it was an album track and the grooves were incredibly thin, it always came out out at about half the normal volume and if you tried to boost the volume you'd always get wailing feedback at most venues. The only system it sounded OK on was at Samanthas.

All of which begs the question: Did I 'discover' Clyde McPhatter or did the guy who made the cassette I heard it from 'discover' it?

If we're talking about people who genuinely heard a brilliant record for the first time and then sold it on to a DJ who had the power to 'break' it, then I reckon Simon Soussan and John Anderson would both be top of the list and undoubtably Ian Levine (who famously wouldn't sell anything from his own collection) would also be up there in that rarified arena.

I mean, does anyone else really come close?

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

About 15 US copies of Shane Martin turned up in a parcel of singles at Global records in the early 70s. I'd never heard it or played it so it went on the ''pop''listing sent out to dealers. Within a day Pep from Wolverhampton had ordered 10 copies. This rang alarm bells as Pep only ordered soul singles. I don't think Pep got any , well not at 22p. So Pep may have discovered it or someone in the W Midlands knew it. If Levine had played it first I probably would have known it , although Levine had records in his DJ box that he never played. UK issue collectors such as Dave Stubbs may have known of the CBS tracks before any DJs played them.

Rick

Yep. Good point Rick. The first place I heard it was at the Mecca but obviously that doesn't necessarily mean that Levine or Curtis discoverd it. It would be typical that Pep was first on it 'cos that f*cker never missed anything. However, Levine & Curtis were so switched on that they would have heard about it through the 'jungle grapevine' at the time and been on it quick. I got one of those 15 copies for £3 at the time I seem to remember. Always hated it though. 'Northern' Country & Western like Damita Jo or Beverly Ann IMO but not a bad record in it's own right. Don't blame you for not listening to it though. I wouldn't have either.

Also good point you mentioned earlier about UK labels. Some of those releases really were visionary and turned unknown US acts into UK Pop hits. For instance, Felice Taylor's "I Feel Love Coming On" on President and the Showstopper's "Ain't Nothing But A Houseparty" on Beacon were only ever hits in the UK. That's what I call visionary A&R!

Hope yer well mate. I haven't seen you for 35 years! You're the guy who turned me onto Al Kent's "The Way You've Been Acting Lately" at a Leeds Central All-Nighter all those years ago and, for that reason alone, I truly love ya!

Ian D

[Garethx]

Well, definitely a good call and well done for mentioning it to Sam but many records had been around for years and were 'known' to DJ's, Dealers and Collectors for years including "I'm So Happy" (which was strangely considered to be too traditional and obvious at the time when it first came into my conciousness). I think I heard it on the "Top Of The Line" album first and was surprised that such a traditional Northern type production was still being made in the late 70's. I actually thought "One On One" from the previous album was a goodie too.

Every record eventually has it's time it seems to me which is why it's always hard to say who discovered what. Travelling around the country doing gigs in the mid 70's showed me that there could be massive variations musically across the North. Remember that back then, there was no internet, no mobiles or texts, the motorway network was in it's infancy and not that many young people even had cars. So anyone with a car, who happened to be a DJ with an insatiable passion for rare soul and a comprehensive network of record contacts had a definite advantage. So on my travels I'd quite often have someone say, "it's a monster in Derby" or "it's massive in Rhyll" or "it packed the floor at York last week" etc, etc, so I'd always investigate a local biggie to see whether it had potential to go bigger elsewhere. For instance, Ila Vann's "You Made Me This Way" broke in Nottingham long before it took off everywhere else and you'd see a similar pattern around the country with different records. As an example, I heard Pep play the Yums Yums "Gonna Be A Big Thing" at an all-dayer in Birmingham and realised that if anyone in Manchester, Wigan, Leeds, Sheffield etc, etc heard the record it would be absolutely huge everywhere. So I made it my mission to track one down and sure enough it went massive the second people heard it. Likewise Porgy & The Monarchs which Levine had written about in a Black Music column and which I decided to track down 'cos I liked his description of it (although I never heard him play it). Likewise, I bought the 'first' copies of "Send Him Back" and "I Go To Pieces" in Burnley, the 'first' copy of Lou Pride in Louth, the 'first' copy of The Four Perfections in Leeds, the 'first' copy of Al De Lory in Petersborough and the 'first' copy of Lenny Curtis in Bradford. Out of those the only one that I can actually 'claim' as a genuine discovery is Lenny Curtis 'cos that was a genuine unknown find on a market stall (and on a label that was considered to be only 'Doo Wop' at the time). All the others had already been heard by the guys who sold them to me.

So, now that we're multiple pages into a long-running thread, I'm coming to the conclusion that a more accurate title for the thread should be "Who Broke What" if the thread is about the key factors which propelled certain records to the top of the tree and mass popularity then, more often than not, the people who actually 'discovered' the records were that vast band of unsung heroes - the small town collector who every so often, will stumble into a genuinely brilliant record but be frustrated by the fact that it was lost or ignored just laying in his/her collection. That's where natural sharks like me would swoop in, realise the potential of the record and then beg, steal or borrow the track, 'break' the record on a big scale and claim the credit. Which is probably fair enough I reckon.

I remember hearing Clyde McPhatter's "Please Give Me One More Chance" and the Ebony's "I'm So Glad I'm Me" on someone else's cassette tape whilst driving back from Sale Mecca one Friday morning in the early hours in the mid 70's and the effect that Clyde McPhatter had on me was so huge that I almost crashed the car at 80mph on the M62. I think Andy Simpson and Bob from Bradford were with me and I'm sure they'll remember how close to death we all were.

So I tracked down a copy of the Clyde McPhatter album the next day. Sadly the only place it really broke was Sheffield Samanthas at the time. Because it was an album track and the grooves were incredibly thin, it always came out out at about half the normal volume and if you tried to boost the volume you'd always get wailing feedback at most venues. The only system it sounded OK on was at Samanthas.

All of which begs the question: Did I 'discover' Clyde McPhatter or did the guy who made the cassette I heard it from 'discover' it?

If we're talking about people who genuinely heard a brilliant record for the first time and then sold it on to a DJ who had the power to 'break' it, then I reckon Simon Soussan and John Anderson would both be top of the list and undoubtably Ian Levine (who famously wouldn't sell anything from his own collection) would also be up there in that rarified arena.

I mean, does anyone else really come close?

Ian D

A great post Ian but one thing we must bear in mind is that the commercial heyday of the Northern scene was a relatively short time: '72 to (at a push) '78-9. It's been almost thirty years since the Casino closed and far longer since Ian Levine was the top man. There have been thirty-years-plus of discoveries which he wasn't involved in. I know he used to claim that the Stafford scene was fuelled by his reject boxes and to an extent that's true. This isn't an anti-Ian post because his legend is cast in iron, but we've always got to remember that context is everything.

Fact is that finding and breaking records in that heyday was numerically like shooting fish in a barrel: invent a musical 'scene' which has no real rules and then find things which fit in with that vague blueprint. Factor in the idea that the most sought after examples would be viewed as junk in the backyards of the country where the music was made and you can't fail but succeed. Play the records to young people who are up for anything in a magically exciting setting involving nationwide travel, staying up all night, relatively easy access to the strongest pharmaceuticals known to man and so on and so on. Anyone who didn't find and break records back then had to be a certified loser.

Contrast with today. The rules have been written in stone for decades. The American record dealing community have been exposed to Northern Soul interest for a lifetime, there are price guides everywhere. The punters know the rules and argue about them infinitely on internet message boards. Any collector who can unearth great sounds and any deejay who can still break great records in 2010 gets my vote.

Edited August 5, 2010 by garethx

[Ian Dewhirst]

A great post Ian but one thing we must bear in mind is that the commercial heyday of the Northern scene was a relatively short time: '72 to (at a push) '78-9. It's been almost thirty years since the Casino closed and far longer since Ian Levine was the top man. There have been thirty-years-plus of discoveries which he wasn't involved in. I know he used to claim that the Stafford scene was fuelled by his reject boxes and to an extent that's true. This isn't an anti-Ian post because his legend is cast in iron, but we've always got to remember that context is everything.

Fact is that finding and breaking records in that heyday was numerically like shooting fish in a barrel: invent a musical 'scene' which has no real rules and then find things which fit in with that vague blueprint. Factor in the idea that the most sought after examples would be viewed as junk in the backyards of the country where the music was made and you can't fail but succeed. Play the records to young people who are up for anything in a magically exciting setting involving nationwide travel, staying up all night, relatively easy access to the strongest pharmaceuticals known to man and so on and so on. Anyone who didn't find and break records back then had to be a certified loser.

Contrast with today. The rules have been written in stone for decades. The American record dealing community have been exposed to Northern Soul interest for a lifetime, there are price guides everywhere. The punters know the rules and argue about them infinitely on internet message boards. Any collector who can unearth great sounds and any deejay who can still break great records in 2010 gets my vote.

Couldn't agree more Gavin. It's 100 times harder to find stuff now then 40 years ago without a doubt and I applaud anyone who manages to do it. I wouldn't quite go as far to say it was as easy as shooting fish in a barrel though - it wasn't quite that easy and some people had to persevere with records for years before they got anywhere. There was tons of good competition record-wise so anything which wasn't 100% obvious was much tougher to break and everyone from back then has their fair share of 'shoulda, woulda, coulda' instances where great records just didn't make it for one reason or another. That's why so many records from back then only found popularity years later. Also, the audiences were generally far bigger and you didn't want to be clearing the floor at Wigan or Cleethorpes otherwise the atmosphere would drop like a stone, so there's pros and cons both ways I guess. But I totally agree that any collector who can unearth great sounds these days really deserves an MBE. It's horrible going to the U.S. these days and watching virtually every dealer pull out Manship's guide from behind the counter.........

Ian D

[TOAD]

I got a 100 different 45rpm brand new releases from the USA all unknown to me (circa 1980). I liked a one by Prince Philip Mitchell called "I'm So Happy" on Atlantic.

At an alldayer I mentioned it to Soul Sam who had never heard of it. I noticed a few months later he was playing it in his spot, so I like to think I first introduced it to the Northern Scene.

No way

a Brand new release from PEPS shop we all had em;)

[Anoraks Corner]

It's horrible going to the U.S. these days and watching virtually every dealer pull out Manship's guide from behind the counter.........

Tangent of interest...lately it seems the shops over here have ditched JM's book and now refer to Popsike.com when pricing stock.

[Guest Perception]

No way

a Brand new release from PEPS shop we all had em;)

It's one thing having a record, but another getting it played to the masses!

[Chalky]

Tangent of interest...lately it seems the shops over here have ditched JM's book and now refer to Popsike.com when pricing stock.

when one sneaks under the radar, several 100 quid cheaper than it should be do they price accordingly or by JM book

[Chalky]

some great tales of yesteryear on this topic especially from Ian D and Rick Cooper.Keep 'em coming makes great reading

[Anoraks Corner]

when one sneaks under the radar, several 100 quid cheaper than it should be do they price accordingly or by JM book

Price 'accordingly'...and fortunately sometimes they don't check at all.

[Ernie Andrews]

back in the day dave withers ,rod shard and dave mcaddon discovered possibly the biggest haul of uk demos ever in a recording studio very close to granada tv which was used for overstock i tumbled it on the 2nd day and still pulled a haul out of it richard searling had been in the building and never knew the haul was there the real winner was radio city dj billy butler who took 5 minutes and bought the lot (the real winner david bowie demos ect) richard walked away with one or 2 gems including chapter five and started hammering it in frustration i think but that made it big but he knew of it before posted by steve siz sale (by the way i discovered joey heatherton "when you call me baby" in a junk shop in brussels on black french brunswick and sue lynne dont pity me in the underground market at derek ords stall !!)

Hi Siz (From Stolen from Ivor?)

I got about a dozen demos The Move/ Steppenwolf/ Moody bluesetc cos I had very little money and your right I went back to get alot more and the whole lot had gone!

I remember someone coming in a disco(soul night) we had downstairs in the cente of manchester with a box of all thses Uk things (might have been you) and being very jealous!

What was the bname of that Street Market in the city centre that used to sell US stuff- I got quite alot of good things from there!

ATb Steve Eckersley

[Citizen P]

Hi Siz (From Stolen from Ivor?)

I got about a dozen demos The Move/ Steppenwolf/ Moody bluesetc cos I had very little money and your right I went back to get alot more and the whole lot had gone!

I remember someone coming in a disco(soul night) we had downstairs in the cente of manchester with a box of all thses Uk things (might have been you) and being very jealous!

What was the bname of that Street Market in the city centre that used to sell US stuff- I got quite alot of good things from there!

ATb Steve Eckersley

Guessing you mean the one on Shudehill.

Can well remember him having hundreds of R.Dean Taylor-Let's go Somewhere-which we never bought.

Tony

[Ernie Andrews]

In one day Tony - I got 2 white demos of tOUCH OF VENUS - Champion

Perigrents - Love on a rampage

Pete Warner - I wanna spenf my life with you

Couple of Wand demos and a few motown white demos and some tohers I cant remember

Just in the right place at the right time cos usually there was very little!

[Eddie Hubbard]

who found the likes of the cbs stuff eg shane martin,lynne randell,chapter 5

Richard Searling discovered Chapter 5 in a shop Manchester where he had gone to buy the left overs from a huge haul of records on UK Demo labels ,bought up by Dave Withers , Dave McCadden and Rod Shard [ modernsoulsucks ] . Just as he started playing it at Wigan , a good mate of ours Jimmy Sheard took a copy to Wigan to sell as an unknown and was amazed to hear it on Searling's playlist . Best wishes ,Eddie

[Sheldonsoul]

Richard Searling discovered Chapter 5 in a shop Manchester where he had gone to buy the left overs from a huge haul of records on UK Demo labels ,bought up by Dave Withers , Dave McCadden and Rod Shard [ modernsoulsucks ] . Just as he started playing it at Wigan , a good mate of ours Jimmy Sheard took a copy to Wigan to sell as an unknown and was amazed to hear it on Searling's playlist . Best wishes ,Eddie

yeh but eddie,jimmy had his copy for a few weeks before he knew it was ever gonna be played so did searling find it first or jimmy. atb pete

[Eddie Hubbard]

yeh but eddie,jimmy had his copy for a few weeks before he knew it was ever gonna be played so did searling find it first or jimmy. atb pete

A good point Pete , I guess we need to give Richard the credit for bringing the record to the attention to the scene , though as always there are the unheralded guys like Jimmy who find these records way before the rush ......Cheers ,Eddie

[Chris L]

Dave will know but again I thought it came out of this incredible trunk load of 45s Dave Burton got off Cas from Warners in 1971. i also thought the original Cooperettes came from there but perhaps it was the second or third.

Yep Dave Burton was working at Harlequin record shop and he bought a trunk load of stuff that included The Coaster, the Cooperettes I picked

up at an electrical shop down the Edgeware road.

[Sheldonsoul]

For those who haven't read the original thread, here it is makes great reading

[Colouredman]

On 08/12/2009 at 19:38, Garethx said:

Who was first to think of George Pepp on Coleman as a potential Northern Monster?

 

On 08/12/2009 at 19:38, Garethx said:

Who was first to think of George Pepp on Coleman as a potential Northern Monster?

Around 1980 / 81 I think, Keith Minshull and I went on a trip out to visit Neil Rushton (we were always goin somewhere looking for records). Neil had got into some of his other projects and was looking to sell some of his surplus stuff, so he invited Keith and I over. I remember us looking in his garage I think and finding a bunch of stuff, all of which was cheap....pocket change really. We got Louise Lewis with a promotional sleeve (still got it), a proper original Sandy Hadley, maybe some of the Mutt titles in quantity and a load of other things, including  an oddball looking thing by George Pepp, It sounded ok and seemed to have something without necessarily striking us as out and out Northern, so we I bought it, coz Keith wasn’t really bothered about unknown/ oddball stuff but I was.

I then passed it on to either Gary Rushbrooke, did Dave Thorley I think late Wigan, early Stafford time. The rest is history. I’d never had it before or since.

[Ted Massey]

18 hours ago, Colouredman said:

 

Around 1980 / 81 I think, Keith Minshull and I went on a trip out to visit Neil Rushton (we were always goin somewhere looking for records). Neil had got into some of his other projects and was looking to sell some of his surplus stuff, so he invited Keith and I over. I remember us looking in his garage I think and finding a bunch of stuff, all of which was cheap....pocket change really. We got Louise Lewis with a promotional sleeve (still got it), a proper original Sandy Hadley, maybe some of the Mutt titles in quantity and a load of other things, including  an oddball looking thing by George Pepp, It sounded ok and seemed to have something without necessarily striking us as out and out Northern, so we I bought it, coz Keith wasn’t really bothered about unknown/ oddball stuff but I was.

I then passed it on to either Gary Rushbrooke, did Dave Thorley I think late Wigan, early Stafford time. The rest is history. I’d never had it before or since.

Tim you offered me one in a trade for the rare Kim Weston EP on Tamla Motown and i turned you down got one now but should have done it lol. Glad i had the Magnetics I have a girl of you though

[Ian Dewhirst]

I was just trying to find out what year Jimmy Raye was discovered and this thread came up on the search.

Blimey. This was a thread and a half wasn't it? I just spent the last half-hour reading the first 6 pages and I'm not even half-way through yet. If there's nothing on telly or you're not going out tonight, you could do lot worse than have a read through this. A wealth of info........

Ian D

 

[Eddie Hubbard]

9 minutes ago, Ian Dewhirst said:

I was just trying to find out what year Jimmy Raye was discovered and this thread came up on the search.

Blimey. This was a thread and a half wasn't it? I just spent the last half-hour reading the first 6 pages and I'm not even half-way through yet. If there's nothing on telly or you're not going out tonight, you could do lot worse than have a read through this. A wealth of info........

Ian D

 

I remember reading in Black Music about 1975 that Levine had the only copy of Jimmy Raye ,but wasn’t playing it .Soul Sam mentioned something along the lines of “ why is he playing Disco when he has incredible records like Jimmy Raye at his disposal “ .Hope this helps .

[Eddie Hubbard]

On 04/08/2010 at 13:55, Anoraks Corner said:

 

 

Rob Marriott spin?

Rob Marriott taped it for me ,and tipped me off when copies appeared on the front page of Soul Bowl for £6 about 1980 . I actually reviewed it in Rod Dearlove’s Midnight Express Fanzine in the early 80’s .My copy ended up with Mark Wilson in Scotland 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Eddie Hubbard

[Eddie Hubbard]

On 07/12/2009 at 19:48, Sheldonsoul said:

asked a question on the recent jd bryant thread about who discovered it and i think it was tedsoul who replied and said it was kev roberts, which then got me wondering who discovered records like larry clinton,don gardner and and other big tunes like these

I think John Manship discovered Larry Clinton ,covered up as Eddie Seaburg

[Eddie Hubbard]

On 11/12/2009 at 17:01, ste said:

 

 

 

...........................

 

 

have a blues and soul from '73 with the same guy championing something a little bit different:

Dan Folger - Way Of the Crowd.

when was this first played out though?

 

steve

I bought Dan Folger blind in Seattle 1980 after reading an Ian Levine chart of  slow records in Frank Elson’s column .I think Randy Cozens championed it too 

[Sheldonsoul]

On 03/11/2023 at 18:48, Ian Dewhirst said:

I was just trying to find out what year Jimmy Raye was discovered and this thread came up on the search.

Blimey. This was a thread and a half wasn't it? I just spent the last half-hour reading the first 6 pages and I'm not even half-way through yet. If there's nothing on telly or you're not going out tonight, you could do lot worse than have a read through this. A wealth of info........

Ian D

 

Really glad you’ve rejuvenated this thread I was the original poster and completely forgot about this post it does make great reading

[Geeselad]

On 08/12/2009 at 20:12, arnie j said:

 

 

good one,and if i may add to that,who discovered soul bros inc-pyramid, some peeps must have thought this was utter tripe at the time, not me though,stafford heaven to these ears

Tim A told me he bought the first copy from a girl at a dayer late 70's. 

[Chalky]

On 06/11/2023 at 01:04, Geeselad said:

Tim A told me he bought the first copy from a girl at a dayer late 70's. 

I thought John Anderson also had then on the shelves

[Torch56]

An interesting thread.

Very difficult to attribute credit to individuals for discovering or 'breaking' records as nearly all evidence is anecdotal and localised in character. Many claims will be made in good faith but be made unaware that a similar unveiling occurred elsewhere at a different time.

Therefore the following observations are made with that caveat in mind.

Mike Ritson and Stuart Russsell in 'The In Crowd' interviewed Alan S and the following extract is just fascinating:

"Well I got Sandi Sheldon for four shillings. It was knackered, but it played great. And I got a demo of 'Ski-ing In The Snow' for next to nothing off a list, for about 2/6. Bought it blind, just because it was by the Invitations. I got Johnny Sayles like that as well. Half the time it was pure luck."

Others have commented on here that Sandi Sheldon was a Dave Godin discovery initially, but the Ski-ing In The Snow reference suggests that he pioneered its exposure to the scene, and the same applies to Johnny Sayles. His use of pre-decimal currency indicates that he obtained these records before February 1971 and strengthens that particular claim. Johnny Sayles was a big Catacombs sound in November 1971, when I first attended. Ski-ing In The Snow also featured on the playlist and enjoyed amazing longevity on the scene. I distinctly remember it being played at the Torch, late '72/early 73, but it really peaked in popularity in that summer at the Cats, post Torch, pre Wigan, until it disappeared along with the rest of Pep's records out of the DJ booth.

Probably the record most associated with Alan S was "That Beatin' Rhythm" by Richard Temple, which by all accounts was a one off for a time at Temple Street. Such was its status that according to The Strange World Of Northern Soul, Ian Levine and Les Cockell made the trip to Wolverhampton specifically to hear it. Pretty sure Alan was the first to have Cigarette Ashes as well.

Bob Crocker, who was tragically killed in the same car crash that hospitalised Alan for three months in March, 1971, discovered the Major Lance classic, 'You Don't Want Me No More' but never had the chance to play it, according to Graham Warr as quoted in Neil Rushton's book, Northern Soul Stories. Instead that honor fell to Alan at the Catacombs and that copy was loaned to Keith Minshull at the Torch where of course it became huge.

The late Blue Max commented earlier in this thread about the number of sounds unearthed at the Catacombs and it was not without some justification that the Blues and Soul adverts for the club in 1972 used to inform readers that it was "Where the sounds begin". I suspect the first airing for the Velours was there, mid '73. Pep brought it up one Wednesday night and gave it a couple of plays to instant and universal acclaim. On the following Saturday it rammed the dancefloor and the collective synchronised clapping echoed approval around the alcoves and corridors.

Quite possibly Pep obtained  the record from the aforementioned Graham Warr. To read Graham's account of his finds in Miami in 1972,, which is in Neil Rushton's book, is to share in the stuff of dreams. Hundreds of boxes of old soul records available for purchase of approximately 1p per record. The sheer number of copies of items like the Hesitations, Younghearts, and Soul Twins (500 of each) is impressive enough but they were already featuring on playlists at the time. Even more impressive is the list of items that were then unknown but would go on to grace decks for years to come, one of which was the Velours.

I'm sure there are many other examples of discoveries that first saw the light of day at WV2 but the ravages of time have limited the potential to tell the full story. However, what we can say is that 'Where  the sounds begin' was not an idle boast.

 

 

[Eddie Hubbard]

11 hours ago, Torch56 said:

An interesting thread.

Very difficult to attribute credit to individuals for discovering or 'breaking' records as nearly all evidence is anecdotal and localised in character. Many claims will be made in good faith but be made unaware that a similar unveiling occurred elsewhere at a different time.

Therefore the following observations are made with that caveat in mind.

Mike Ritson and Stuart Russsell in 'The In Crowd' interviewed Alan S and the following extract is just fascinating:

"Well I got Sandi Sheldon for four shillings. It was knackered, but it played great. And I got a demo of 'Ski-ing In The Snow' for next to nothing off a list, for about 2/6. Bought it blind, just because it was by the Invitations. I got Johnny Sayles like that as well. Half the time it was pure luck."

Others have commented on here that Sandi Sheldon was a Dave Godin discovery initially, but the Ski-ing In The Snow reference suggests that he pioneered its exposure to the scene, and the same applies to Johnny Sayles. His use of pre-decimal currency indicates that he obtained these records before February 1971 and strengthens that particular claim. Johnny Sayles was a big Catacombs sound in November 1971, when I first attended. Ski-ing In The Snow also featured on the playlist and enjoyed amazing longevity on the scene. I distinctly remember it being played at the Torch, late '72/early 73, but it really peaked in popularity in that summer at the Cats, post Torch, pre Wigan, until it disappeared along with the rest of Pep's records out of the DJ booth.

Probably the record most associated with Alan S was "That Beatin' Rhythm" by Richard Temple, which by all accounts was a one off for a time at Temple Street. Such was its status that according to The Strange World Of Northern Soul, Ian Levine and Les Cockell made the trip to Wolverhampton specifically to hear it. Pretty sure Alan was the first to have Cigarette Ashes as well.

Bob Crocker, who was tragically killed in the same car crash that hospitalised Alan for three months in March, 1971, discovered the Major Lance classic, 'You Don't Want Me No More' but never had the chance to play it, according to Graham Warr as quoted in Neil Rushton's book, Northern Soul Stories. Instead that honor fell to Alan at the Catacombs and that copy was loaned to Keith Minshull at the Torch where of course it became huge.

The late Blue Max commented earlier in this thread about the number of sounds unearthed at the Catacombs and it was not without some justification that the Blues and Soul adverts for the club in 1972 used to inform readers that it was "Where the sounds begin". I suspect the first airing for the Velours was there, mid '73. Pep brought it up one Wednesday night and gave it a couple of plays to instant and universal acclaim. On the following Saturday it rammed the dancefloor and the collective synchronised clapping echoed approval around the alcoves and corridors.

Quite possibly Pep obtained  the record from the aforementioned Graham Warr. To read Graham's account of his finds in Miami in 1972,, which is in Neil Rushton's book, is to share in the stuff of dreams. Hundreds of boxes of old soul records available for purchase of approximately 1p per record. The sheer number of copies of items like the Hesitations, Younghearts, and Soul Twins (500 of each) is impressive enough but they were already featuring on playlists at the time. Even more impressive is the list of items that were then unknown but would go on to grace decks for years to come, one of which was the Velours.

I'm sure there are many other examples of discoveries that first saw the light of day at WV2 but the ravages of time have limited the potential to tell the full story. However, what we can say is that 'Where  the sounds begin' was not an idle boast.

 

 

Fantastic info 

[Roburt]

11 hours ago, Torch56 said:

I got Sandi Sheldon for four shillings. It was knackered, but it played great. And I got a demo of 'Ski-ing In The Snow' for next to nothing off a list, for about 2/6. Bought it blind, just because it was by the Invitations. I got Johnny Sayles like that as well. Half the time it was pure luck."

Back in 68/69/70, most US soul 45's were either obtained from Soul City Record Shop (who would sell out of an in-demand item in a couple of days), F L Moores in L Buzzard (70 onwards if my memory is working OK still) OR from mailing list auctions.

Mailing lists would be sent out about every 2 months by each dealer involved back then. Just lists of artists names, track name & label. As stated above, most folk (certainly me) would scan each list for familiar artist names (the Sapphires, Tony Clarke, etc) or label names (Soul Clock, Original Sound, Audio Arts, Sansu) and take a punt on unknown items. To win a known sound on US 45 you'd have to bid  over 10/6d or even 12/6d) but if you bid blind on an item, you could win it for 3/- (15p) if you were lucky.

I'd bid on 10 to 12 'blind' on each list I got -- using the label as my guide or a known artist. I even bid on a Mala 45 by Gino Washington with the Altrosonics & Versatones just coz of our Geno W, the label it was on & I was also fascinated by the long artist / group name. Won it & was very happy I had done. Got other 45's that later became sought after items, but it was just by pure luck. Looking back, many other top sounds were totally ignored just coz our knowledge back then was so limited.

      

[Manfromsoul45s]

On 27/04/2021 at 20:42, Colouredman said:

 

Around 1980 / 81 I think, Keith Minshull and I went on a trip out to visit Neil Rushton (we were always goin somewhere looking for records). Neil had got into some of his other projects and was looking to sell some of his surplus stuff, so he invited Keith and I over. I remember us looking in his garage I think and finding a bunch of stuff, all of which was cheap....pocket change really. We got Louise Lewis with a promotional sleeve (still got it), a proper original Sandy Hadley, maybe some of the Mutt titles in quantity and a load of other things, including  an oddball looking thing by George Pepp, It sounded ok and seemed to have something without necessarily striking us as out and out Northern, so we I bought it, coz Keith wasn’t really bothered about unknown/ oddball stuff but I was.

I then passed it on to either Gary Rushbrooke, did Dave Thorley I think late Wigan, early Stafford time. The rest is history. I’d never had it before or since.

Mine came from you and Butch around the Stafford Era

[Wiggyflat]

20 hours ago, Torch56 said:

An interesting thread.

Very difficult to attribute credit to individuals for discovering or 'breaking' records as nearly all evidence is anecdotal and localised in character. Many claims will be made in good faith but be made unaware that a similar unveiling occurred elsewhere at a different time.

Therefore the following observations are made with that caveat in mind.

Mike Ritson and Stuart Russsell in 'The In Crowd' interviewed Alan S and the following extract is just fascinating:

"Well I got Sandi Sheldon for four shillings. It was knackered, but it played great. And I got a demo of 'Ski-ing In The Snow' for next to nothing off a list, for about 2/6. Bought it blind, just because it was by the Invitations. I got Johnny Sayles like that as well. Half the time it was pure luck."

Others have commented on here that Sandi Sheldon was a Dave Godin discovery initially, but the Ski-ing In The Snow reference suggests that he pioneered its exposure to the scene, and the same applies to Johnny Sayles. His use of pre-decimal currency indicates that he obtained these records before February 1971 and strengthens that particular claim. Johnny Sayles was a big Catacombs sound in November 1971, when I first attended. Ski-ing In The Snow also featured on the playlist and enjoyed amazing longevity on the scene. I distinctly remember it being played at the Torch, late '72/early 73, but it really peaked in popularity in that summer at the Cats, post Torch, pre Wigan, until it disappeared along with the rest of Pep's records out of the DJ booth.

Probably the record most associated with Alan S was "That Beatin' Rhythm" by Richard Temple, which by all accounts was a one off for a time at Temple Street. Such was its status that according to The Strange World Of Northern Soul, Ian Levine and Les Cockell made the trip to Wolverhampton specifically to hear it. Pretty sure Alan was the first to have Cigarette Ashes as well.

Bob Crocker, who was tragically killed in the same car crash that hospitalised Alan for three months in March, 1971, discovered the Major Lance classic, 'You Don't Want Me No More' but never had the chance to play it, according to Graham Warr as quoted in Neil Rushton's book, Northern Soul Stories. Instead that honor fell to Alan at the Catacombs and that copy was loaned to Keith Minshull at the Torch where of course it became huge.

The late Blue Max commented earlier in this thread about the number of sounds unearthed at the Catacombs and it was not without some justification that the Blues and Soul adverts for the club in 1972 used to inform readers that it was "Where the sounds begin". I suspect the first airing for the Velours was there, mid '73. Pep brought it up one Wednesday night and gave it a couple of plays to instant and universal acclaim. On the following Saturday it rammed the dancefloor and the collective synchronised clapping echoed approval around the alcoves and corridors.

Quite possibly Pep obtained  the record from the aforementioned Graham Warr. To read Graham's account of his finds in Miami in 1972,, which is in Neil Rushton's book, is to share in the stuff of dreams. Hundreds of boxes of old soul records available for purchase of approximately 1p per record. The sheer number of copies of items like the Hesitations, Younghearts, and Soul Twins (500 of each) is impressive enough but they were already featuring on playlists at the time. Even more impressive is the list of items that were then unknown but would go on to grace decks for years to come, one of which was the Velours.

I'm sure there are many other examples of discoveries that first saw the light of day at WV2 but the ravages of time have limited the potential to tell the full story. However, what we can say is that 'Where  the sounds begin' was not an idle boast.

 

 

I have a letter from Feb 71 addressed to Phil Saxe and Rob Bellars from a Dave Lowe who was a bit miffed he had lost out on their auction of a Sandi Sheldon.

[Roburt]

I got my dates a bit off above ... F L Moores was already going strong in the old detached house on Leighton Rd, Linslade in early 69. He was advertising his stock of import 45's & LP's but still calling them R&B rather than soul ... though he was just going by MOORE and DISC DELETIONS back then.

I worked for the railways & so got free train travel. I'd head down from Donny to Leighton Buzzard on Saturday mornings & spend 3 hours or so going thru what he had on the shelves in the house. This was just before he cottoned on to the value of some of the US soul 45's he had in abundance back then, so he was selling most at 2/6 each. I can recall coming across copies of the Soul Bros 6 "You Better Check Yourself" on US Atlantic and snapping up a copy (coz I knew the group from their UK Atlantic release).  

His old house was demolished a good while back but it stood next to the one in the pic below & looked quite similar (as I recall). Not sure when the house was actually demolished but he moved his biz (record sales) to a unit above 2 High St, L Buzzard over Xmas 1969 (see 2nd pic) -- I visited both locations. 1st time @ the High St address being in late March 70 as I remember buying a Tammi Terrell 45 from there (bought it as she'd just died). 

BTW, the guy in Brighton who was also placing sales ads must have had some good stuff too -- can't recall if I wrote off for his list or not (well it was 54 years ago).

Edited November 9, 2023 by Roburt

[Roburt]

Back to the mid 60's and how many of us got started on the quest for US soul 45's ....

BACK THEN, we knew very little & had few pointers '/ aids to help our search (no tinternet, no discogs, no evilbay).

So we had to learn from what was easily available here. I took pointers from mid 60's UK albums that you could buy from your local record store. Jimmy James & Vags 'New Religion' LP (66), the comp LP 'Sing A Song Of Soul' (66) and the Bell Cellar of Soul' series (68 on) introduced me to tracks by the Radiants, Jackie Ross, Ko Ko Taylor, James Phelps, Bobby Moore, Knight Bros, James Carr, Diamond Joe, Barbara Perry, Clifford Curry & Jimmy Radcliffe + stuff like "Ain't No Big Thing", "Ain't Love Good, Ain't Love Proud", "This Heart Of Mine", Hi-Didley Dee Dum Dum (It's A Good Feelin') & "The Entertainer" which I had to try to find out who'd done the original US version. 

It took a while but I got to know who'd recorded those songs first. So I now had a whole list of names to look out for when looking at the next auction mailing list I received. It would be a while later that I cottoned on to tracks by the likes of the Kittens, the Fuller Brothers, Tony Clarke, etc.

My brother was a merchant seaman at the time -- going on routes out of Manchester to Argentina (no use at all) & up the Great Lakes (of great use). I'd ask him to pop into any record shops he'd pass when on-shore in Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, etc to pick up 45's from their discount boxes. He never did (he had no clue on what labels. artists to buy as he had no idea on soul stuff). Luckily it was easier with albums as you got a clue on many LP covers if it was by a black act. So I did get brought home some great soul LP's out of the cheap racks (Freddie Scott, Spyder Turner & a few more).  

 

[Roburt]

I married a Hull lass, so spent many hours in ULLL in the mid to late 60's & thru the 70's.

Lots of decent vinyl in 2nd hand shops there. The Uni had a history of booking live US blues acts to play their venues, so some folk would be attracted to Hull Uni by the social scene on campus. So many black music fans ended up as students in the city. If you fell lucky, you could find decent soul / R&B stuff in the 2nd hand shops on Beverly Rd / Princes Ave for many years (students getting skint & selling some of their records off). Also, with ULL being a big port you would find German, Dutch 45's in those same shops sometimes. Picked up a UK copy of Chubby's "You Just Don't Know" and a German Dee Dee Sharpe 45 on one visit in the 60's. 

I have no idea how the link came about but there was a Record Exchange shop in ULL (on Princess Ave, then Anlaby Rd) that had strong links with (Book &) Record Exchange in west London. I had no idea of the link at the time, but the London shops would send 45's up to the ULL shop on a regular basis. I recall picking up UK CBS / Epic demo 45's from their Anlaby Rd shop around 72/73 and wondering how the shop obtained them. 

I would start heading down to London to visit those Record & Tape Exchange shops (Shepherds Bush, Camden) from the early 80's -- mind you they were the haunts of the likes of Roger Banks & Paul Temple, so the NS stuff got snapped up quickly.  

[Geeselad]

4 hours ago, Roburt said:

I married a Hull lass, so spent many hours in ULLL in the mid to late 60's & thru the 70's.

Lots of decent vinyl in 2nd hand shops there. The Uni had a history of booking live US blues acts to play their venues, so some folk would be attracted to Hull Uni by the social scene on campus. So many black music fans ended up as students in the city. If you fell lucky, you could find decent soul / R&B stuff in the 2nd hand shops on Beverly Rd / Princes Ave for many years (students getting skint & selling some of their records off). Also, with ULL being a big port you would find German, Dutch 45's in those same shops sometimes. Picked up a UK copy of Chubby's "You Just Don't Know" and a German Dee Dee Sharpe 45 on one visit in the 60's. 

I have no idea how the link came about but there was a Record Exchange shop in ULL (on Princess Ave, then Anlaby Rd) that had strong links with (Book &) Record Exchange in west London. I had no idea of the link at the time, but the London shops would send 45's up to the ULL shop on a regular basis. I recall picking up UK CBS / Epic demo 45's from their Anlaby Rd shop around 72/73 and wondering how the shop obtained them. 

I would start heading down to London to visit those Record & Tape Exchange shops (Shepherds Bush, Camden) from the early 80's -- mind you they were the haunts of the likes of Roger Banks & Paul Temple, so the NS stuff got snapped up quickly.  

The basement of Camden record and tape exchange was amazing. Thousands of 45's, used to pick up loads of UK Motown and exchange it with minshull for imports, around 87/88