Label Variations - Beyond The Logo

[45cellar]

I am always Intrigued by the different Label Variations.

The thing that stands out with many Titles, is just that, the Title.

One Line, Two Lines, Sometimes Three etc & Different Size Font for the same Release.

Considering the Quality Control aspect, did the Label Owners care beyond their Individual Logo.

• Just wondering if this is a Regional Thing,

• Printers allowed to do whatever they wished beyond the Logo.

• Differences Of Time Regarding Press.

Picked this one purely as an example of many, Just happened to be a Brunswick Label.

Here's a DEMO for this release, Is this a clue as to first off the press

with above Stock Copies, or Just a coincidence.

Edited December 5, 2009 by 45cellar

[45cellar]

Here are three others. I know that different Pressing Plants are Involved here, Incuding different time of Issue.

The thing that stands out Beyond that are the Title's and Artist Credits.

Sometimes an attempt made on one line, even by reducing the font size,

& then split the other over a couple of lines.

I'm guessing that the printer had complete control here,

without any Quality Control regarding the credit layout from the Label Owner,

once the Logo had been established & Label Blanks produced.

Edited December 6, 2009 by 45cellar

[45cellar]

Four Lines or two.

[45cellar]

Another Example Regarding the Title. Same Layout as the DEMO below.

And a WEST COAST Monarch Delta # 69164

[Harry Crosby]

Morning roger, intresting stuff, will be watching for the outcome with intrest-HARRY

[45cellar]

Morning roger, intresting stuff, will be watching for the outcome with intrest-HARRY

Morning Harry,

It is something that I have noticed over the years, Major Labels Too.

Almost an "Oh, That'll Do" attitude, Regarding the Label Credits.

Edited December 5, 2009 by 45cellar

[Sean Hampsey]

I think your assessment is spot on Roger. The Blank label is the only fixed aspect. Title, Artist and other credits were largely open to interpretation.

Just so long as the correct information is displayed, the 'label owner' would leave the rest to the Printer / Compositer.

I used to work for a Printer many years ago - long before Apple Macs took over. Typesetting was an art in itself - and nobody would ever second guess a typesetter as to how the type would or should appear.

The rate at which releases were coming off the press would mean that they simply wouldn't have the time to get into the minutiae of 'one line or two' especially as there's no particular 'right or wrong'. It would be just about getting the job done!

Always makes me smile when I observe how much importance the Soul 45 collector puts on such matters. I just think, they've obviously never worked in a busy printers!

Sean

[45cellar]

Many Thanks Sean for confirming my thoughts on this subject,

and for giving a first hand Insight into the day to day life in a Printing Environment.

The printer is often overlooked, yet an plays such an Important part in the collecting of the Various Labels.

To my ears, the music from the 60's is second to none, but to me the Label owners obviously trying for Hit records at the time

appear to have taken their eye off the ball regarding the Impact with certain titles Via the printers..

Where would you split the title, "HOW SWEET IT IS TO BE LOVED BY YOU"

In my opinion, certainly not like this.

Same goes for "THE SOUL BROTHERS" Credit.

Edited December 5, 2009 by 45cellar

[Soulsider]

Well if you are really looking for an answer Roger - I always thought How Sweet It Is should be

How Sweet It Is (To Be Loved By You).

Two lines with the bracketed words on the second line.

Mick

[45cellar]

Well if you are really looking for an answer Roger - I always thought How Sweet It Is should be

How Sweet It Is (To Be Loved By You).

Two lines with the bracketed words on the second line.

Mick

Hi Mick

Exactly, How Sweet It Is (To Be Loved By You), brackets or not,

the Label I mention reads like

How Sweet It Is To

(Be Loved By You)

Edited December 6, 2009 by 45cellar

[Guest Brett F]

Brilliant topic, and one thats always interested me, good to hear Sean's view, knowing he worked at a printers, the thing that really gets me with the the differing label variations is that some are obviously rarer than others.i don't mean different spelt titles just the differing label design, logo and text layouts.........For instance which of the Barbara Mason 's are harder than the other, same as the Jackie Wilson shown above, i have both and of course i have many records where i have noticed these differences etc when looking for vinyl.

Brett

by the way i've thought for a long time there should be a sub section, purely for people to post up label scans. i think it would be interesting for vinyl anoraks and the mentally institutionalized..............

Edited December 21, 2009 by Brett F

[45cellar]

Brilliant topic, and one thats always interested me, good to hear Sean's view, knowing he worked at a printers, the thing that really gets me with the the differing label variations is that some are obviously rarer than others.i don't mean different spelt titles just the differing label design, logo and text layouts.........For instance which of the Barbara Mason 's are harder than the other, same as the Jackie Wilson shown above, i have both and of course i have many records where i have noticed these differences etc when looking for vinyl.

Brett

by the way i've thought for a long time there should be a sub section, purely for people to post up label scans. i think it would be interesting for vinyl anoraks and the mentally institutionalized..............

Thanks Brett

Definiteley Interesting to see record scans, We tried at Hitsville to cover a few of the Labels >>> LINK <<<

Here's a Rare Brunswick Stock Copy, Yet I have seen at least 3 Different Label Variations.

Three pictured below.

Makes you wonder why it's so bloomin' hard to find.

Once a record was recorded, it astounded me that certain aspects were left almost to chance,

sometimes with with spelling mistakes or totally random split of credits over more than one line.

A similar thread has been started, but regarding the "" and the lack of company advertising on such.

Apart from MOTOWN related labels, a lot of the DETROIT Stuff came in just a plain White or brown Sleeve.

Missed oppourtunity or what.

Edited December 21, 2009 by 45cellar

[Harry Crosby]

Great thread, ive allways wondered if any labels wich changed format ie RCA/MGM etc at certain dates, if there were any on the change over point that mistakedly were pressed on the previous format, lots of rumours at one time of things like judy freeman on black rca stock, as we now know these were just rumours, but certainly a great talking point at the time. As roger has said a lot of the labels were just put together with no thought of mistakes etc so i suppose it could have happened. would be nice eh

[45cellar]

Great thread, ive allways wondered if any labels wich changed format ie RCA/MGM etc at certain dates, if there were any on the change over point that mistakedly were pressed on the previous format, lots of rumours at one time of things like judy freeman on black rca stock, as we now know these were just rumours, but certainly a great talking point at the time. As roger has said a lot of the labels were just put together with no thought of mistakes etc so i suppose it could have happened. would be nice eh

Hi Harry

Here's one from earlier this year. The Chalfontes - He Loves Me - Black Label.

(I've used the Confessin' Side For Comparison To The One from ebay).

Edited December 21, 2009 by 45cellar

[45cellar]

Here's an oddity that I managed to win on ebay this year,

Possibly a test run at the printers when Logo Changed from one Design to another.

[Harry Crosby]

Hi Harry

Here's one from earlier this year. The Chalfontes - He Loves Me - Black Label.

(I've used the Confessin' Side For Comparison To The One from ebay).

Wow great stuff roger

[45cellar]

Wow great stuff roger

I tried my best to win it, but got outbid at the Last Minute

Certainly never seen one before, Just goes to show though, who knows what may be out there.

Hopefully, the M-G-M or RCA Variations, that you mention Harry.

Edited December 21, 2009 by 45cellar

[Harry Crosby]

I tried my best to win it, but got outbid at the Last Minute

Certainly never seen one before, Just goes to show though, who knows what may be out there.

Hopefully, the M-G-M or RCA Variations, that you mention Harry.

Ive never seen that variation before roger, don`t know wether ive asked this before, but whats the story behind the yellow RCA demo`s ie BEVERLEY ANN, DON RAY, PEGGY MARCH. Were they from a different plant or something?-HARRY

[45cellar]

Ive never seen that variation before roger, don`t know wether ive asked this before, but whats the story behind the yellow RCA demo`s ie BEVERLEY ANN, DON RAY, PEGGY MARCH. Were they from a different plant or something?-HARRY

I have two of those listed, I will try to find something out.

I also have a Red DEMO,

have seen a White DEMO of The Metros.

Edited December 22, 2009 by 45cellar

[Pete S]

Ive never seen that variation before roger, don`t know wether ive asked this before, but whats the story behind the yellow RCA demo`s ie BEVERLEY ANN, DON RAY, PEGGY MARCH. Were they from a different plant or something?-HARRY

No, simply in 1968 they phased out the white demos and replaced them with yellow and they stayed like that through the 70's and 80's.

[Harry Crosby]

No, simply in 1968 they phased out the white demos and replaced them with yellow and they stayed like that through the 70's and 80's.

Thanks pete,

[De-to]

just found this on e-bay usa motown from the phillipines,

[45cellar]

just found this on e-bay usa motown from the phillipines,

Motown certainly travelled the globe, Notice that they use the U.S.A. MOTOWN Logo.

Not sure how many countries did, Holland springs to mind & possibly Brazil.

Normally Tamla_Motown.

PopSike.com

Edited December 22, 2009 by 45cellar

[Guest Dave Turner]

Japanese collector's page dealing with Goldwax label variations ----

https://tinyurl.com/yzloago

[45cellar]

Japanese collector's page dealing with Goldwax label variations ----

https://tinyurl.com/yzloago

There's two or three, I haven't seen before on there, Many Thanks for the LINK Dave.

[De-to]

not seen this before with solid centre,

[45cellar]

not seen this before with solid centre,

Me neither, that center reminds me of a Diamond label I have of "Chubby Checker" I think the Diamond label is Hong Kong.

[Guest Dave Turner]

There's two or three, I haven't seen before on there, Many Thanks for the LINK Dave.

Roger, the English is a little pigeon due to being translated but one can get the essential gist.

I have often wondered with various labels when (ie what label number) the label design was changed on 1st issues. It is a minefield when reissues, pressing plants etc etc come into the equation.

Having recently got back into collecting vinyl ( what a mug ) I naturally require first issues, for instance a 1965 release being a 1965 record and not a 1967 reissue.

Dakar for example, at what number did it change from this

to this?

[45cellar]

Roger, the English is a little pigeon due to being translated but one can get the essential gist.

I have often wondered with various labels when (ie what label number) the label design was changed on 1st issues. It is a minefield when reissues, pressing plants etc etc come into the equation.

Having recently got back into collecting vinyl ( what a mug ) I naturally require first issues, for instance a 1965 release being a 1965 record and not a 1967 reissue.

Dakar for example, at what number did it change from this

to this?

I'm not sure when Dakar Label changed Design Dave, I will try to find out.

[Guest Dave Turner]

I'm not sure when Dakar Label changed Design Dave, I will try to find out.

Roger, don't go to any great length as it was just an example and one of many. We probably all have a favourite design for any particular label but with my collecting head on I want the first issue and not what looks nicest. With Goldwax I prefer the plain yellow with the disc as the "O" (as the Wee Willie Walker on the site) but if the original issue was one of the other designs then that's the one I would prefer to have in my box.

It would be a monumental work but its a shame there isn't a defintive book on the subject.

C'mon Roger get typing and scanning as I think you're the guy to write it

[45cellar]

I'm not sure when Dakar Label changed Design Dave, I will try to find out.

Here's a couple of Motown DEMO's, Different pressing plants,

Beyond The MOTOWN Logo, the credits are a completely different layout.

[45cellar]

Roger, don't go to any great length as it was just an example and one of many. We probably all have a favourite design for any particular label but with my collecting head on I want the first issue and not what looks nicest. With Goldwax I prefer the plain yellow with the disc as the "O" (as the Wee Willie Walker on the site) but if the original issue was one of the other designs then that's the one I would prefer to have in my box.

It would be a monumental work but its a shame there isn't a defintive book on the subject.

C'mon Roger get typing and scanning as I think you're the guy to write it

Definitely a Monumental Task Dave, trouble is that there's so much Information lost through the years.

If time were available, a Book would be brilliant as a reference, hopefully able to scratch the surface on this forum.

It took years at Hitsville to try to find a scan of every DEMO & Stock Copy for Ric-Tic.

We're almost there barring a couple that may never turn up. i.e. LITTLE ANN Ric-Tic RT-142 DEMO Anyone Seen a copy.

[45cellar]

No, simply in 1968 they phased out the white demos and replaced them with yellow and they stayed like that through the 70's and 80's.

Thanks Pete.

Have you seen any that were Issued on both designs during transition between the two.

[John Benson]

Interesting stuff there Roger!

Funnily enough only last night I was looking at three variations of a US 70's 45 that I hadn't really noticed before.

It was Debbie Taylor's Arista side "Just don't pay" and they were all slightly different. layouts, two of them having a logo on the left hand side of the label, ('Touch of Gold') which isn't on mine - which is what drew me to checking out others for sale.

Here's one like mine:

Here's the two with the logos:

Yes, it's a funny thing this collecting lark isn't it!

[45cellar]

Interesting stuff there Roger!

Funnily enough only last night I was looking at three variations of a US 70's 45 that I hadn't really noticed before.

It was Debbie Taylor's Arista side "Just don't pay" and they were all slightly different. layouts, two of them having a logo on the left hand side of the label, ('Touch of Gold') which isn't on mine - which is what drew me to checking out others for sale.

Here's one like mine:

Here's the two with the logos:

Yes, it's a funny thing this collecting lark isn't it!

Certainly is John.

Over the years before the Internet, different Variations were noticed.

However, now we have the chance to compare stuff at the press of a button,

many more things are now showing up.

Many Thanks for the Debbie Taylor Scans,

Just shows that almost every Label continued through the 60's & 70's without too much thought toward the Credits, as long as they're somewhere on the label.

Different Font, Size, BOLD, CAPS, emphasis changing from one print run to another.

All it would appear controlled by the Printer, without question from Label Owner.

Even the Motown Empire where I had always thought that EVERY aspect was under close Quality Control

Have Various degrees of attention to Detail where the Label Credits were concerned.

Edited December 23, 2009 by 45cellar

[Guest]

I have two of those listed, I will try to find something out.

I also have a Red DEMO,

have seen a White DEMO of The Metros.

i've got a white demo of metros sweetest one - will try and get scan up soon

[45cellar]

i've got a white demo of metros sweetest one - will try and get scan up soon

Many Thanks, I'm not sure when the Red DEMO Was pressed, It has "SWEETEST ONE" both sides.

The White one definitely Initial Release.

[Guest]

Many Thanks, I'm not sure when the Red DEMO Was pressed, It has "SWEETEST ONE" both sides.

The White one definitely Initial Release.

white demo has 'Time Changes Things' on other side (I personally prefer TCT to 'sweetest one')

[purist]

RCA red labels, not saying they were exclusively pressed there, but every red demo I've had has come from Canada-mind I've only had about four. Having said that Canada has some great looking label variations, which often get confused with the USA issues (The Canadian black Decca is one of my fave looking labels, simple classic kind of matt looking, also like the Mercury two colour issue label, so much nicer than the plain red of the USA issue)

btw Does anybody else think the printers were given the order over the phone, hence the basic details being right, but the layout altering? My guess is the companys priority was to get the single pressed as quickly as possible, especially the top up orders, so it was probably all rush & hurry. I tend to assume the non standard looking label variations were from these later 'post release date' orders, but there's a story behind the bootleggers who operated in that era. There was a big net chat about this subject years back, was it on the old soul talk list?

[45cellar]

RCA red labels, not saying they were exclusively pressed there, but every red demo I've had has come from Canada-mind I've only had about four. Having said that Canada has some great looking label variations, which often get confused with the USA issues (The Canadian black Decca is one of my fave looking labels, simple classic kind of matt looking, also like the Mercury two colour issue label, so much nicer than the plain red of the USA issue)

btw Does anybody else think the printers were given the order over the phone, hence the basic details being right, but the layout altering? My guess is the companys priority was to get the single pressed as quickly as possible, especially the top up orders, so it was probably all rush & hurry. I tend to assume the non standard looking label variations were from these later 'post release date' orders, but there's a story behind the bootleggers who operated in that era. There was a big net chat about this subject years back, was it on the old soul talk list?

Interesting regards Red Label DEMO Possibly being Canadian

as I have been steadily collecting Canadian Labels from time to time.

I have seen the DECCA Label that you mention, yet to own one though.

Also notice that the Canadian Back Beat is Black similar to the Decca.

I think that you may be right about the Telephone Orders, It would explain some of the Spelling Mistakes etc,

also these well known titles to us now, were new & therefore not so well known so mistakes were Inevitable I suppose.

I would love to see some of the DEFINITE Bootlegs of the period, so much has been left to pure speculation as we approach 2010.

They could be easily be responsible for some of the Variations, that we now, 40 to 50 years later consider pressing plant differences.

Edited December 24, 2009 by 45cellar

[soulAdequateNP]

Here's a couple of Motown DEMO's, Different pressing plants,

Beyond The MOTOWN Logo, the credits are a completely different layout.

And here's another variant of this one - I imagine there were quite a lot of US demos sent out of major hits like this one, and thereby a good few variations. By the way, does anyone here know the story behind the red vinyl Motown demos of which there seem to have been quite a few?

[45cellar]

And here's another variant of this one - I imagine there were quite a lot of US demos sent out of major hits like this one, and thereby a good few variations. By the way, does anyone here know the story behind the red vinyl Motown demos of which there seem to have been quite a few?

Thanks for the Red Vinyl DEMO Scan for Motown M-1126

I'm not sure which came out first, Just another promotional gimmick I'm guessing,

However there are still differences with some of the tracks.

Wasn't "Stoned Love" Only Available as a 45 on Red Vinyl & Yesteryear using the Long Intro.

Here's a Normal DEMO with both A & B

& Double A Side Red Vinyl.

The Label Credits are Almost Identical for the A Sides

Except the Matrix Info On Label, Just Below The Jobete-BMI

Edited December 26, 2009 by 45cellar

[Guest]

i've got a white demo of metros sweetest one - will try and get scan up soon

here's another label difference regarding colour. The demo's i've seen of this are white, can anyone give any info on the yellow?

[Guest]

anyone?

[De-to]

ive never seen a yellow demo of cp before as you say only white demos,!!!

[45cellar]

here's another label difference regarding colour. The demo's i've seen of this are white, can anyone give any info on the yellow?

Not sure, I'll try to find something out.

Here's the White one for comparison.

Many Thanks for Posting The Metros Scans.

PopSike.com

Edited December 28, 2009 by 45cellar

[Guest]

Many of this label variation about ?

[Guest]

Not sure, I'll try to find something out.

Here's the White one for comparison.

Many Thanks for Posting The Metros Scans.

PopSike.com

many thanks - any info would be greatfuly recieved

[Sebastian]

Dakar for example, at what number did it change from this

to this?

Dakar went through three numbering systems and all had different label layouts.

The first series (in 1968-ish) DAKAR 1449 - DAKAR 1452 had a plain black/silver layout:

The second series looked similar, but was coloured. It was acrive from 1968-1971 and went from DAKAR 600 - DAKAR 626:

The third series was completely different. It was active from 1972-1977 and went from DAKAR 4501 - DAKAR 4569:

[45cellar]

Dakar went through three numbering systems and all had different label layouts.

The first series (in 1968-ish) DAKAR 1449 - DAKAR 1452 had a plain black/silver layout:

The second series looked similar, but was coloured. It was acrive from 1968-1971 and went from DAKAR 600 - DAKAR 626:

The third series was completely different. It was active from 1972-1977 and went from DAKAR 4501 - DAKAR 4569:

Many Thanks Sebastian

I don't have that many on the DAKAR Label to compare.