A La Carte ?

[Goldsoul]

Of course option 1 is the best,but are we talking here about choosing one over the other?.

BITD when soul records were purchased as new releases,i entered into a "contract" with some of the money cascading thru the record companies,down to, hopefully, the artist.By purchasing the record my conscience is clear.

Then came along boots and re-issues.Money to be made.Not by me i hasten to add.Now we've got cd's.

Like i said earlier,records purchased,for a 3rd or even 4th time around,(who bothered to chase up that profit?) and put onto a free cd for mates isn't going to put a record company out of business.

The problem is folks trying to make a business out of it.Money to be made.

'The problem is folks trying to make a business out of it.Money to be made'.

Absolutely right.....the web sites that let you choose your own tracks, Ala Carte's,Right Track's, Venues handing over Anniversary and Charity cd's!!

REALITY CHECK.....Boot cd's outweigh vinyl 50 to 1.....any comment on that little item?

'

put onto a free cd for mates isn't going to put a record company out of business'

It has.....say goodbye to Goldmine, Grapevine and Goldsoul.....all confined to cd history due to the above.

The NEW players are rubbing their hands with glee as they are fairly unknown and happy to be so.

[SteveM]

'The problem is folks trying to make a business out of it.Money to be made'.

Absolutely right.....the web sites that let you choose your own tracks, Ala Carte's,Right Track's, Venues handing over Anniversary and Charity cd's!!

REALITY CHECK.....Boot cd's outweigh vinyl 50 to 1.....any comment on that little item?

'

put onto a free cd for mates isn't going to put a record company out of business'

It has.....say goodbye to Goldmine, Grapevine and Goldsoul.....all confined to cd history due to the above.

The NEW players are rubbing their hands with glee as they are fairly unknown and happy to be so.

Kev, below is a review taken from your website re the "101 Northern Anthems" cd you are offering for sale.

Good selection of some old classics

I haven't actually bought this cd because like alot of "Soulies" I already possess a good proportion of them already (most on vinyl!!), but if you are just discovering Northern Soul then this is a good cd to buy, just for tracks such as Elbie Parkers Please keep away from me.

That more honestly sums up why cd's of that ilk aren't selling in great quantities, because the vast majority of tracks have been issued several times before and are simply being repackaged.

The "just discovering NS" comment is justified, but I'd find it hard to believe that any businessman, or woman, would expect to make substantial profits, or simply break even to be totally honest, on "newcomers" to the Soul scene, of which there are pitifully few.

Sorry but I don't think your "free cd" theory holds any water at all.

Steve

[KevH]

'The problem is folks trying to make a business out of it.Money to be made'.

Absolutely right.....the web sites that let you choose your own tracks, Ala Carte's,Right Track's, Venues handing over Anniversary and Charity cd's!!

REALITY CHECK.....Boot cd's outweigh vinyl 50 to 1.....any comment on that little item?

'

put onto a free cd for mates isn't going to put a record company out of business'

It has.....say goodbye to Goldmine, Grapevine and Goldsoul.....all confined to cd history due to the above.

The NEW players are rubbing their hands with glee as they are fairly unknown and happy to be so.

Comment on boots cd's?.We are back to unauthorised again.Its didn't bother anyone BITD did it,like i said ,when it was nearer to the artists career's.!!When tapes were the thing,and boot vinyl was doing the rounds.

I agree with you about the "new players" among us.

Free cd's putting some out of business - well maybe some of the free cd's aren't so bad after all.Maybe some even filled a void,or tastes at the time.Or maybe some companies ran out of steam and ideas?.1000 cd's a week from venues?.Find that figure hard to believe.Most "promoters" can't be bothered to do it on a regular basis in my limited experience.

[Goldsoul]

Kev, below is a review taken from your website re the "101 Northern Anthems" cd you are offering for sale.

Good selection of some old classics

I haven't actually bought this cd because like alot of "Soulies" I already possess a good proportion of them already (most on vinyl!!), but if you are just discovering Northern Soul then this is a good cd to buy, just for tracks such as Elbie Parkers Please keep away from me.

That more honestly sums up why cd's of that ilk aren't selling in great quantities, because the vast majority of tracks have been issued several times before and are simply being repackaged.

The "just discovering NS" comment is justified, but I'd find it hard to believe that any businessman, or woman, would expect to make substantial profits, or simply break even to be totally honest, on "newcomers" to the Soul scene, of which there are pitifully few.

Sorry but I don't think your "free cd" theory holds any water at all.

Steve

Steve......look a little closer....it's not our review but AMAZON's. We are merely agents and drive traffic to them. Amazon charge you- not us.

Totally disagree on the Free cd theory. Soul nights giving away Free cd's, have made up the minds of ordinary punters that buying the real deal is a waste of money plus,I doubt they care anyway.

Kev H is in a minority buying Kent cd's and I wish there are more like him,but the reality is, small Soul nights with their below the radar activities have killed Northern cd sales...along with a few others we mentioned earlier. FACT not FICTION.

[Goldsoul]

Comment on boots cd's?.We are back to unauthorised again.Its didn't bother anyone BITD did it,like i said ,when it was nearer to the artists career's.!!When tapes were the thing,and boot vinyl was doing the rounds.

I agree with you about the "new players" among us.

Free cd's putting some out of business - well maybe some of the free cd's aren't so bad after all.Maybe some even filled a void,or tastes at the time.Or maybe some companies ran out of steam and ideas?.1000 cd's a week from venues?.Find that figure hard to believe.Most "promoters" can't be bothered to do it on a regular basis in my limited experience.

'1000 cd's a week from venues?.Find that figure hard to believe.Most "promoters" can't be bothered to do it on a regular basis in my limited experience.'

Kev,

That's because you are unaware of the type of people doing it. Your bag is the Rarer Lifeline type .

As a promoter, I see venues springing up everywhere. It's the Oldies types(and yes that's my customer) that are subjected to the Free CD, Anniversary, DVD Copies etc, simply because they do not have your experience or knowledge.

Seriously, when you get a spare hour, trawl the net and just count up the Boot cd's from venues,Ebay and Web sites. You will be staggered at the epidemic.

Pete S talked about the golden days of the late 90's early Noughties, trust me, the sales have shifted from the high street to 'other areas'

As I said before, if a carver outfit is exposed, they attract a lot of venom from vinyl enthusiasts of which Soul Source has many. CD's are below the radar to most Soul fans and that my friend is music to the ears of

the Ala Carte's of this world.

[Telfordsoulboy]

Dear all

A La Carte CDs were compiled with a lot of thought and tried to never impede any UK licensed product. The main purpose of compiling these discs, if anyone has seen them, was to promote the hidden gems that never got played... the thousands of perfectly good records that get ignored because they're not rare, not collectable or out of fashion with the overlords of the scene.

Have a look at the file-sharing sites like Filetopia or DC++ and look through the tens of thousands of CDs that are posted to download free-of-charge... how many people on here use these sites rather than pay for legitimate copies of CDs?

I am a soul fan and have been for a great number of years and would like to consider myself reasonably knowledgeable about the music, however, it does make me sad to see the dual-standards that people live by. It's apparently ok to download free music from the above sites and ok to give away free CDs at venues or stuck to magazines but not to advertise neglected and unobtainable music from e-bay... how many sellers are currently selling dubious 45s on E-bay?... Has this been raised on this forum... how much money from these 45s makes it way back to the label/artist/owners? I bet nil. What about the counterfeit 45s? The CDs pertaining to be legit from Jamaica or Belgium?

Each CD on E-Bay sold, at the very most between 10 and 15 copies.... The profit to me was absolutely minimal. Any suggestions that I did this for a luxury lifestyle are well off the mark... £3.49 each including P&P... eBay and PayPal fees... If I made 10p per copy that would be a lot! I am not trying to justify why I did it... and if people, particularly those who release CD product are pissed off... then please be rest assured that no more A La Carte CDs will be made. There are currently no CDs available and non will be in the future.

The vast majority of tracks used had never been issued before anywhere in the world, which may, hopefully have encouraged collectors to seek out the original source.

Selling the odd CD... is this any worse than respected dealers selling second hand copies of the original disc or even worse selling copious amounts of dubious re-issue or bootleg singles.. I don't think so.

A La Carte

[Mark Bicknell]

Anyone buying these now or in the future will be taken to a quiet place and they will be shot.

[Mark Bicknell]

Just found out that this little guy is the Mr Big behind the making of all dodgy CD's, turns out he waves his magic wand and they are.

[Telfordsoulboy]

Just found out that this little guy is the Mr Big behind the making of all dodgy CD's, turns out he waves his magic wand and they are.

Are these images copyrighted?

© Cadells Limited 2008 ® all rights reserved

[ajb]

Anyone buying these now or in the future will be taken to a quiet place and they will be shot.

A bit harsh!!! mark

i've had a few of these cd's over time, and owning them hasn't stopped me buying originals, vinyl or legit cd compilations.

infact, its led me to seek out more if anything.

for people who don't get out a lot, like myself, it opens your eyes to what's out there.

i for one hope he keeps it up, as i'm sure its hardly a major profit making scheme, the prices that are charged.

if this means i need to face the firing squad, so be it.

if you don't want to buy them don't, but please don't stop others from getting an education.

i know a lot of people feel very strongly about boots, and copies, but i'm sure there are bigger fish out there, who are really taking the pi$$.

maybe i'm wrong.

oh well. i'll get my coat...............................................

BANG...............................................................

IMVHO.

alan

[Mark Bicknell]

Are these images copyrighted?

© Cadells Limited 2008 ® all rights reserved

Deleted bit strong on my part.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Mark Bicknell

[Mark Bicknell]

A bit harsh!!! mark

i've had a few of these cd's over time, and owning them hasn't stopped me buying originals, vinyl or legit cd compilations.

infact, its led me to seek out more if anything.

for people who don't get out a lot, like myself, it opens your eyes to what's out there.

i for one hope he keeps it up, as i'm sure its hardly a major profit making scheme, the prices that are charged.

if this means i need to face the firing squad, so be it.

if you don't want to buy them don't, but please don't stop others from getting an education.

i know a lot of people feel very strongly about boots, and copies, but i'm sure there are bigger fish out there, who are really taking the pi$$.

maybe i'm wrong.

oh well. i'll get my coat...............................................

BANG...............................................................

IMVHO.

alan

Was just trying to make light of this but to be honest I don't really care what people do or say on this scene anymore it's all bollocks.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[ajb]

Was just trying to make light of this but to be honest I don't really care what people do or say on this scene anymore it's all bollocks.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

agreed mark, life's to short.

alan

[Ady Croasdell]

Dear all

A La Carte CDs were compiled with a lot of thought and tried to never impede any UK licensed product. The main purpose of compiling these discs, if anyone has seen them, was to promote the hidden gems that never got played... the thousands of perfectly good records that get ignored because they're not rare, not collectable or out of fashion with the overlords of the scene.

Have a look at the file-sharing sites like Filetopia or DC++ and look through the tens of thousands of CDs that are posted to download free-of-charge... how many people on here use these sites rather than pay for legitimate copies of CDs?

I am a soul fan and have been for a great number of years and would like to consider myself reasonably knowledgeable about the music, however, it does make me sad to see the dual-standards that people live by. It's apparently ok to download free music from the above sites and ok to give away free CDs at venues or stuck to magazines but not to advertise neglected and unobtainable music from e-bay... how many sellers are currently selling dubious 45s on E-bay?... Has this been raised on this forum... how much money from these 45s makes it way back to the label/artist/owners? I bet nil. What about the counterfeit 45s? The CDs pertaining to be legit from Jamaica or Belgium?

Each CD on E-Bay sold, at the very most between 10 and 15 copies.... The profit to me was absolutely minimal. Any suggestions that I did this for a luxury lifestyle are well off the mark... £3.49 each including P&P... eBay and PayPal fees... If I made 10p per copy that would be a lot! I am not trying to justify why I did it... and if people, particularly those who release CD product are pissed off... then please be rest assured that no more A La Carte CDs will be made. There are currently no CDs available and non will be in the future.

The vast majority of tracks used had never been issued before anywhere in the world, which may, hopefully have encouraged collectors to seek out the original source.

Selling the odd CD... is this any worse than respected dealers selling second hand copies of the original disc or even worse selling copious amounts of dubious re-issue or bootleg singles.. I don't think so.

A La Carte

All bootleggers get criticised on here so please don't make out it's double standards.

I don't see how say Chuck Jackson 'What's With This Loneliness' being included on a CD is getting obscurities to the great British public. It's hardly a hidden gem that never got played and it's available on two Kent CDs, for which Chuck Jackson will get the royalties through the US company.

I'm very glad you've stopped and it's a credit to this site that you have.

[SteveM]

Steve......look a little closer....it's not our review but AMAZON's. We are merely agents and drive traffic to them. Amazon charge you- not us.

Totally disagree on the Free cd theory. Soul nights giving away Free cd's, have made up the minds of ordinary punters that buying the real deal is a waste of money plus,I doubt they care anyway.

Kev H is in a minority buying Kent cd's and I wish there are more like him,but the reality is, small Soul nights with their below the radar activities have killed Northern cd sales...along with a few others we mentioned earlier. FACT not FICTION.

Kev, it doesn't matter who's review it is. The point is that the market for repackaged cd's is obviously limited, because unless you buy them for one or two tracks that you can't get elsewhere, you don't want to pay for duplication. The reviewer makes that very point.

As for the Kent CD' like Kev H I buy them, the ones I want anyway, and thats generally because there are things on them that are a) unreleased or I don't have them on vinyl and I want to be able to listen to them. I can't think of many Kent cd's I have that are repackaged and contain tracks that I have on other compilations. Then theres the info contained therein.

As for the giveaway cd's, I'll be honest and say that I tend not to attend northern oldies do's apart from local events so I have no knowledge of the content of this type of cd but if I travel a bit farther afield I find that the giveaways are largely the dj's personal choices and items popular in that locality, as opposed to the revival type tunes market you are aiming at.

Thats my limited experience but people who get about more may of course have different experiences.

[Naughty Boy]

Dear all pissed off...

Selling the odd CD... is this any worse than respected dealers selling second hand copies of the original disc or even worse selling copious amounts of dubious re-issue or bootleg singles.. I don't think so.

A La Carte

i think there is a world of diff between selling a bootleg cd and a dealer selling a legit original

Edited November 26, 2009 by Naughty Boy

[Telfordsoulboy]

i think there is a world of diff between selling a bootleg cd and a dealer selling a legit original

If these collections have caused offence then please accept my most sincere apologies. My intentions were never to deceive... and if they did... all I can do is repeat my apology.

A La Carte

[Rbman]

Just so I know where I stand...

I can't buy or accept an A La Carte CD........ and also a giveaway CD at a soul event. Clearly there is no difference as in both cases the owner of the rights is deprived of royalties. Taking that a step further should not all event promoters ensure they have the required PRS Licence....and if not i can't go there. Have to stop at home and just play my ACE CDs then.

[Mark Bicknell]

Just so I know where I stand...

I can't buy or accept an A La Carte CD........ and also a giveaway CD at a soul event. Clearly there is no difference as in both cases the owner of the rights is deprived of royalties. Taking that a step further should not all event promoters ensure they have the required PRS Licence....and if not i can't go there. Have to stop at home and just play my ACE CDs then.

Pretty much.

[Guest pinkyperky]

Well I think Telfordsoulboy has hardly done anything majorly wrong... the main culprits are the likes of right track and those that download the new cd's and covers as they come out and go flogging them off at the likes of Kings Hall all-nighters.

[Ady Croasdell]

Just so I know where I stand...

I can't buy or accept an A La Carte CD........ and also a giveaway CD at a soul event. Clearly there is no difference as in both cases the owner of the rights is deprived of royalties. Taking that a step further should not all event promoters ensure they have the required PRS Licence....and if not i can't go there. Have to stop at home and just play my ACE CDs then.

What a great idea, but you could come up to the Oxford Street pavement and talk bollox to Winston with your headphones on for a bit of atmosphere.

[Rbman]

What a great idea, but you could come up to the Oxford Street pavement and talk bollox to Winston with your headphones on for a bit of atmosphere.

...can I bring a deck chair and a flask of soup?

[Ady Croasdell]

Well I think Telfordsoulboy has hardly done anything majorly wrong... the main culprits are the likes of right track and those that download the new cd's and covers as they come out and go flogging them off at the likes of Kings Hall all-nighters.

I think that's particularly bad and particularly illegal as they are bootlegging the artwork and my bleeding notes presumably! The matter will be looked into. Thanks.

[Goldsoul]

Well I think Telfordsoulboy has hardly done anything majorly wrong... the main culprits are the likes of right track and those that download the

new cd's and covers as they come

out and go flogging them off at the

likes of Kings Hall all-nighters.

Whoa....Can you tell me who copies current CDs and flogs them at the Kings Hall? We certainly have not seen any.

Anyway we have a strict policy of holding offenders hands down while bringing a hammer down on their knuckles.

[deardrooper]

Anyone buying these now or in the future will be taken to a quiet place and they will be shot.

[Benji]

I think that's particularly bad and particularly illegal as they are bootlegging the artwork and my bleeding notes presumably! The matter will be looked into. Thanks.

Ady, to be honest I think it's not bad but very astounding that somebody thinks your liner notes are worth reproducing

Anyway, back to the thread: If there was/is any specific reason for CD sales going down since the late 90s it's the general file sharing/mp3 swapping to blame and certainly not home-compiled CDs.

But personally I don't think that's the only reason for Goldmine/Goldsoul and Grapevine going out of business. I think the first simply didn't come up with any interesting CDS in their later days, i.e. rather unloving compiled CDs with boring sleeve notes. The latter, Grapevine, was too elitist to get sufficent sales, although I have all of their releases and think they were brilliant (apart from the Funk ones ).

Giving away complimentary CDs at venues sure doesn't do any harm to official CDs sales, anybody saying so simply tries to find a cheap scapegoat. I always saw and will see CD freebies and home-made CDs being sold in small numbers as the natural successor to audio tapes. Of course advertising them on the net and selling in bigger numbers is just as illegal and immoral as counterfeiting official CDs.

[Goldsoul]

Benji. As I said before, once one vinyl title is even reissued legally there's an inquest by some. The fact is, most Northern Soul folk do not take CDs seriously enough, therefore little is said.

You total illegal Anniversary freebies, Ebay sales, Markets, Gigs, Passing onto mates, choosing tracks from dodgy web sites all adds up to something very significant. Forum mouthpieces pass this over because their passion is vinyl. In fact I know several heavy collectors who casually champion the free illegal cd syndrome. I'm out of puff on this one, suffice to say the 3 company's we speak of are no longer around because there isn't even a small profit to be made.

Kent have the comfort zone of being part of a bigger picture ala Ace Records Ltd. Demon are terrific at offering great packages for small bucks, so that's a positive.

Sadly though, until the mindset adjusts, illegal cd's will

slide by unnoticed. Music to the ears of the small bedroom type operator with his/her £2-500 a week 'supplementary income'

The new players steer away from vinyl due to a potential forum backlash instead opting for a easier life with CDs/Dvds. Smart or what!?

[Pete S]

Music to the ears of the small bedroom type operator with his/her £2-500 a week 'supplementary income'

The new players steer away from vinyl due to a potential forum backlash instead opting for a easier life with CDs/Dvds. Smart or what!?

I think that may be an exagerration, some weeks I struggle to sell 200 to 500 quids worth of good quality vinyl, so someone would have to sell an awful lot of cd's.

[Wrongcrowd]

'1000 cd's a week from venues?.Find that figure hard to believe.Most "promoters" can't be bothered to do it on a regular basis in my limited experience.'

Kev,

That's because you are unaware of the type of people doing it. Your bag is the Rarer Lifeline type .

As a promoter, I see venues springing up everywhere. It's the Oldies types(and yes that's my customer) that are subjected to the Free CD, Anniversary, DVD Copies etc, simply because they do not have your experience or knowledge.

Seriously, when you get a spare hour, trawl the net and just count up the Boot cd's from venues,Ebay and Web sites. You will be staggered at the epidemic.

Pete S talked about the golden days of the late 90's early Noughties, trust me, the sales have shifted from the high street to 'other areas'

As I said before, if a carver outfit is exposed, they attract a lot of venom from vinyl enthusiasts of which Soul Source has many. CD's are below the radar to most Soul fans and that my friend is music to the ears of

the Ala Carte's of this world.

Kev, you seem to have a very fixed view on a general demise of soul CD sales and broadly it can be summed up on two key reasons -

1. The availability of free downloads, legal or otherwise.

2. Freebie promotional venue CDs.

Whilst I think that you have made some valid points, and I agree they will have affected sales is some way, but I really doubt that these reasons have impacted quality CD sales to the degree you imply.

The promoters of CDs that push out the same tired old tracks, time and time again with out any, or any worthwhile liner notes are bound to be impacted greater than say Kent, Grapevine or Soulscape. The effort that the quality guys put into their CD releases through research, artist and producer interviews, together with great mastering are I'm sure, major contributors towards their success, along with the confidence that the artists and publishing companies are getting their dues.

If things were really as bad and for the reasons you describe, I hardly think that Ace/Kent would have the size of catalogue they have today, and continue to work on additional CD projects at the rate they do.

If you want to identify the reason for failing CD sales, I think you should look closer to home.

[Ady Croasdell]

I'm out of puff on this one, suffice to say the 3 company's we speak of are no longer around because there isn't even a small profit to be made.

Kent have the comfort zone of being part of a bigger picture ala Ace Records Ltd.

Not true; we (Kent) more than earn our way within Ace, we don't benefit financially from being a part of the larger organisation (it's still relatively small scale approx 15 employees). Sales are very healthy and we have dedicated customers who enjoy most of our output along with occasional buyers who will pick the CDs that tickle their fancy.

[Goldsoul]

To close, 20 grand a week plus is lost in cd sales due to the Freebies at Soul nights, Car Boots, Web sites offering 20 tracks for a fiver, Gig sales

etc etc. In my opinion, Kent would not survive in today's market as a stand alone business without Ace's umbrella, that goes for others too.

Virtually every Northern track is available illegally on cd or download.

A friend of mine regularly buys Anniverary discs from one North Yorkshire outfit and he's never been to their gig! He simply waits for the cd

to be advertised on Ebay. Then to be a nice guy he asks if there's anything I need for Radio ie Joseph Webster, The Parliaments and other big hitters.

Vinyl guys are not interested in lost cd sales, that is why the new trend is to drift into bedroom type selling. Less hassle, easy money and most of all no flak from vinyl collectors!

[Ady Croasdell]

In my opinion, Kent would not survive in today's market as a stand alone business without Ace's umbrella, that goes for others too.

See above

[Pete S]

It's already been touched on but the reason Kent does survive is the quality of the product. I've almost stopped buying cd's now but I still buy these because apart from the fact that the music is going to be top-notch, I know I'm going to be able to sit down with a drink and read about the artists, the music and the history while listening. This is actually important to me and if they weren't packaged like that I don't think I would bother. Where the Goldmine etc let themselves down was that the booklets always looked hurried and one line about a record didn't suffice.

I've said it before but the distribution needs to be looked at again because the large HMV stores around here (Wolverhampton, merry Hill, telford) carry very little Ace product, if they stocked them, I'd buy more.

[SteveM]

To close, 20 grand a week plus is lost in cd sales due to the Freebies at Soul nights, Car Boots, Web sites offering 20 tracks for a fiver, Gig sales

etc etc. In my opinion, Kent would not survive in today's market as a stand alone business without Ace's umbrella, that goes for others too.

Virtually every Northern track is available illegally on cd or download.

A friend of mine regularly buys Anniverary discs from one North Yorkshire outfit and he's never been to their gig! He simply waits for the cd

to be advertised on Ebay. Then to be a nice guy he asks if there's anything I need for Radio ie Joseph Webster, The Parliaments and other big hitters.

Vinyl guys are not interested in lost cd sales, that is why the new trend is to drift into bedroom type selling. Less hassle, easy money and most of all no flak from vinyl collectors!

I know you've said "to close" Kev, but you haven't said anything about my repackaging comments. If certain tracks are constantly repackaged with a different cover and very little else, how come you expect to maintain sales figures without new product. We aren't talking about lifes staples here, its a lifestyle choice. Why would people want to keep buying cd's that they already effectively have on an earlier compilation? Because that seems to be the majority of your output. Kent caters to a different market and keeps that market by continually releasing different product. It may be me, but I don't think its rocket science to see that giveaways can't possibly affect turnover to the extent you are claiming.

Rereleasing the same old same old has got to have more effect on your top line than a promoter giving away 100 cd's at his venue, which are unlikely to contain the top 500 sounds anyway. The same cd's being sold on Ebay is a different matter though but thats not what we were originally discussing.

Anyway, Kev, did you get to the Lane for the derby ?

Steve

COYRAWW !

[Ady Croasdell]

It's already been touched on but the reason Kent does survive is the quality of the product. I've almost stopped buying cd's now but I still buy these because apart from the fact that the music is going to be top-notch, I know I'm going to be able to sit down with a drink and read about the artists, the music and the history while listening. This is actually important to me and if they weren't packaged like that I don't think I would bother. Where the Goldmine etc let themselves down was that the booklets always looked hurried and one line about a record didn't suffice.

I've said it before but the distribution needs to be looked at again because the large HMV stores around here (Wolverhampton, merry Hill, telford) carry very little Ace product, if they stocked them, I'd buy more.

Will pass the distribution comment on. HMV used to be the best source of Ace/Kent.

ta

Ady

[Goldsoul]

I know you've said "to close" Kev, but you haven't said anything about my repackaging comments. If certain tracks are constantly repackaged with a different cover and very little else, how come you expect to maintain sales figures without new product. We aren't talking about lifes staples here, its a lifestyle choice. Why would people want to keep buying cd's that they already effectively have on an earlier compilation? Because that seems to be the majority of your output. Kent caters to a different market and keeps that market by continually releasing different product. It may be me, but I don't think its rocket science to see that giveaways can't possibly affect turnover to the extent you are claiming.

Rereleasing the same old same old has got to have more effect on your top line than a promoter giving away 100 cd's at his venue, which are unlikely to contain the top 500 sounds anyway. The same cd's being sold on Ebay is a different matter though but thats not what we were originally discussing.

Anyway, Kev, did you get to the Lane for the derby ?

(to close" Kev, but you haven't said anything about my repackaging comments. If certain tracks are constantly repackaged with a different cover and very little else, how come you expect to maintain sales figures without new product. )

Steve,

I only reiterate what I have said continually on this thread. Giving away, copying cd's totally blows away any REAL sales that legitimate company's might try and achieve regardless of packaging.

This forum is the best debater around, but it's vinyl biased, hence there is....NO REAL DEBATE apart from very few who have took part(Ady,Pete,You, Me and a few others). If the thread was about vinyl, say hello to 300 authors at least!

I see where you are coming from about re-packaging, but Steve, you seem to be oblivious to the real losses here to record companies.

I have nothing more to add apart from while Ace, Demon,Expansion etc are busy trying to persuade HMV to carry one of each of their new releases......at least 1,000 cd's will be shunted from bedrooms to Soul nights, Car boots, Weekenders and Web Sites offering 20 picks for a fiver etc etc this weekend alone.

I't's an epidemic that most Soul fans turn a blind eye to, as their passion is VINYL. That's the way it is and I doubt it will change. CD's are looked upon as some Cheap,Free almost offensive little blighters to some.

Quite why Promoters of Soul nights are praised for handing out their own burns at do's is beyond me.

'Anyway, Kev, did you get to the Lane for the derby ?'

No. I'm Wednesday 'til I die as you know, but the new 're-development' worries me. Why take our capacity up above Chelsea without a Middle East bankroll?

Still dreaming of the Premiership and of course......stuffing the Blades!

[funkyfeet]

Was offered 3,000 mp3 tracks the other day all northern/motown, the guy thought I could use them at do's I DJ at, I explained I only play vinyl, he said I bet there's tracks you won't have on vinyl, I agreed but told him I don't play CD's out while DJing. He'll have no problem off loading them to someone though, and that person will never buy another CD from a shop.

Also another problem:

I would stock more CD's in the shop, but the main issue is the price I can buy them in at, I get them cheaper off Amazon than from distributors direct, this is one of the issues they don't cater for the small shops at the right price to compete with the supermarkets, Amazon or bootleggers.

[Pete S]

Will pass the distribution comment on. HMV used to be the best source of Ace/Kent.

ta

Ady

Ady I know of one website - Belgian based rocabilly/rock & roll blog - which has almost the entire Ace records catalogue on there to download for free. The idea apparently is that you evaluate the music, delete it and buy the original. Once you start to find your way around blog sites you find that almost every cd ever released by anyone is up there. I know another site which hads the entire trojan catalogue available, again, free download.

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Hello everybody -

I just visited this site and they no longer do CD's. I notice their slogan is 'Northern soul music by Northern soul people'. That's all well and good, but that implies participants of Northern Soul are actually prepared to break the law to acquire various tracks, and that they, A La Carte, are prepared to supply that illegal demand, and make money without paying residuals to those who own the recorded works.

In light of what has been said above, I have deals with the featured artists and Detroit musicians union, for example. No matter how many duplications of the tracks or indeed whenever they are 'copied' I have the duty and obligation to honour my agreements now or 10 years in the future. For example I have a licence to sell/press up to a maximum number of 'Tell me'/Spyders Turner tracks, before I pay a renotgitated performance fee on the record to the musician/union. This sagegaurds the interestes of the musicians and makes sure thay are not exploited. To be honest, it is really of no concern of anybody but the copyright owner. It is his right to allow copies of the works to be created and negotiate deals with the likes of bespoke labels who may be interested in compliations or special releases etc. What is important is that the copyright owner has the best interests of the performers at heart and do the right thing and reserve any funds generated by the deal, for them in line with their agreements. Of course there is no accounting for second hand 45's from say 1967. But an organisation that blatantly copies recordings and sells like this without permission is breaking the law. There is also the issue of the writers/publishers royalty. I was told by a US attorney that if it is not your recording, it is somebody elses. It could even be owned by somebody different to the original producer, like Motown now owns Joanne Bratton and Ed Wingates Golden World/Ric Tic productions.

Therefore anybody who duplicates without permission is breaking the law.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Carl Dixon

[Guest Carl Dixon]

I meant to say about 'fair use' and 'safe harbour'. Terms that often crop up. I don't think any broadcaster, rights owner etc, objects to individuals organisings their favourite recordings or programmes on various formats for archive purposes or for that extra copy in the car, but the scenario above is highly disrespectful to those who own the masters. They think they are doing them a favour and will probably argue that without them, fans would have never heard the music. It really is not their prerogative to suggest the copyright holder is better off with their illegal activities because somewhere down the line, it makes somebody go and buy a legit CD. I could claim that by stealing a bottle of wine in a pub and drinking it in front of customers, it may stimulate sales and the pub should be grateful.

[ajb]

just read this in a music making journal.................

"According to a poll of people, taken in the UK, those who illegally download music also spend £77 per annum on legit releases, with just £44 from self-professed non-pirates."

.......................... maybe a lot of people use these free/cheap copies like a library, searching out what they like before going out to buy genuine copies.

and, would the person who buys bootleg copies, really buy the genuine article anyway. what i'm getting at, does it truly reduce sales.

what i do find astonishing is people pay more money for a booted vinyl of one track (upwards of £10), but some feel these same people wouldn't pay the same for a whole album of tracks on CD.

This is not a just a soul music thing, its all music, and dvd come to that.

is it really these pirates ruining the industry, or the industry them selves.

i'm not involved in the industry, and these are just my observations, and not a provocation.

alan

Edited November 28, 2009 by ajb

[Dave Moore]

I think one of the things to consider is that Kent/Ace who do things a certain way seem to be bucking the trend within the industry as far as selling 'physical product' is concerned/ Now granted it's a pretty small niche market in the scheme of things but soul fans seem happy to still buy a physical piece of music if it's produced to a standard.

I think the industry itself has failed on all counts to understand the way technology was going to attack their monopolies and I can't for the life of me see how they currently make any money? I know they've slowly been dragged into the 21st century with newspaper freebie links and other gimicky marketing ploys but can anyone explain to me how the massive revenues from vinyl, cassette, CD etc in the recent past are now going to be generated? I can't see payments for downloading a file at 99c generating the same cash as a Lp or CD, can anyone?

I'm a record collector so it really doesn't affect my personal choices as I only possess a handful of CDs and have never downloaded a soundfile from a site but surely if the music is out there for free the industry is buggered...BIG time.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Dave Moore

[Guest PERMAREPERTERRAM]

from what i can see from the replies to this topic the people with an axe to grind are the ones who over the years have spent an absolute fortune on buying the original 45's ,bigger fools them ! i have bought virtualy every cd alacarte have released saving me, if the going rate is anything to go by £100000's of pounds ,the quality of the cd's are very good,and many people like me who are not crazy enough to justify spending what amounts to a sizable mortgage on the real thing are more than happy with that,now there is also a debate on the royalties side of the eqaution,well to all those out there who have spent lets say £2000 ++ on a single i.e most of the moaners/complainers !!,how much of that £2000 ++ went to the artist? the silence will no doubt be deafening,tim everett provided a service to those who wanted it,me included and i for one will be eternaly gratefull to him for it.cheers for that tim

[Kevinkent]

from what i can see from the replies to this topic the people with an axe to grind are the ones who over the years have spent an absolute fortune on buying the original 45's ,bigger fools them ! i have bought virtualy every cd alacarte have released saving me, if the going rate is anything to go by £100000's of pounds ,the quality of the cd's are very good,and many people like me who are not crazy enough to justify spending what amounts to a sizable mortgage on the real thing are more than happy with that,now there is also a debate on the royalties side of the eqaution,well to all those out there who have spent lets say £2000 ++ on a single i.e most of the moaners/complainers !!,how much of that £2000 ++ went to the artist? the silence will no doubt be deafening,tim everett provided a service to those who wanted it,me included and i for one will be eternaly gratefull to him for it.cheers for that tim

Welcome to Soul-source!

Nice to know where you stand, right from your very first post, as we all have different views.

Me? Bootneck, I mean Bootleg? - no, I'd rather have the real thing.

- Kev

[Gold Band]

I could claim that by stealing a bottle of wine in a pub and drinking it in front of customers, it may stimulate sales and the pub should be grateful.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Troid

[Headsy]

[,now there is also a debate on the royalties side of the eqaution,well to all those out there who have spent lets say £2000 ++ on a single i.e most of the moaners/complainers !!,how much of that £2000 ++ went to the artist? the silence will no doubt be deafening,tim everett provided a service to those who wanted it,me included and i for one will be eternaly gratefull to him for it.cheers for that tim

that quote just about sums up that you just dont get it,

what has buying a record from somebody got to do with royalties ?

[pikeys dog]

i have bought virtualy every cd alacarte have released saving me, if the going rate is anything to go by £100000's of pounds ,

In what way is it a 'saving'?

What do you have to show for your cash but a load of CDRs full of poor/compressed recordings?

The main people on the thread commenting are those who have been involved in the release of CDs via the regular route.

Personally I couldn't give a toss if a 45 I own on original is put out on an official CD - and good luck to anyone who buys them.

I.M.O you are comparing different formats to excuse you being a 'handler of stolen goods'/'thief' (of intellectual rather than physical property - but a thief never-the-less).

[Guest PERMAREPERTERRAM]

Anyone buying these now or in the future will be taken to a quiet place and they will be shot.

that picture of my grossfarter was taken on the 10th of february 1933 its a still picture from a televised speech he made on the dangers of marxism thank you for posting it,maybe if he were alive today he would make another one decrying on the dangers of hypocrisy from some of the contributers to this particular forum subject

[Cunnie]

that picture of my grossfarter was taken on the 10th of february 1933 its a still picture from a televised speech he made on the dangers of marxism thank you for posting it,maybe if he were alive today he would make another one decrying on the dangers of hypocrisy from some of the contributers to this particular forum subject

Strong views for a new member.

Can ask that before you post again on this or any other thread you post an intro on the link below as stated in the site rules.

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?/forum/44-new-member-shouts/

[wolfie66]

I've bought a few of these & found them spot on; good sound, well thought-out & some really nice tunes.

I'd also prefer the originals on vinyl, but as the few of these there are will be in the hands of a select minority who do this sort of thing for a living, the chances are I'll never get them - hence the CD's in my collection. I liked Tim's because he is so obviously a real soul fan, with a real soul fan's feeling for the music - they weren't just chucked together - and at that price was obviously NOT doing it for the money.

So you who want to can buy vinyl only, whilst those of us who like a well thought out cd at a decent price will continue to buy them, alright