There Are Not Many Black People On The Scene?

[ImberBoy]

There are not many black people on the scene?

Why?

[Barry]

There are not many black people on the scene?

Why?

Could go back to the 60's and 70's when the scene was forming and integration wasn't at where it is now.

Maybe a scene with a massive white following wasn't as nice a place to be hanging around in back then.

[pikeys dog]

Maybe they were into more current music styles - not harking back to an outdated sound?

[Mark S]

In the seventies my black mates were into funk and reggae and thought that northern soul was old and out of date .

Also I dont think it helps when tossers like Jazzy B say the scene is racist wtf does he know .

[Guest]

Not been counting myself !!,nsoul culture is a mainly white working class culture invented by the white working class and black folks have there soul scenes (hip-hop;R&B;blues,etc) attended by black folks but like nsoul not exclusively.

[ImberBoy]

Not been counting myself !!,nsoul culture is a mainly white working class culture invented by the white working class and black folks have there soul scenes (hip-hop;R&B;blues,etc) attended by black folks but like nsoul not exclusively.

Could you explain why you wrote that please?

[Guest]

Could you explain why you wrote that please?

Cause i did, whats wrong with it ?

[Barry]

Cause i did, whats wrong with it ?

I think it puts a bit of a slant on Imbers post mate.

[Simsy]

I think it puts a bit of a slant on Imbers post mate.

Think he was misunderstood. I took him to mean he was counting/keeping tabs etc..

[Barry]

Think he was misunderstood. I took him to mean he was counting/keeping tabs etc..

I'm absolutely positive that he didn't mean anything but I think it was an unnecessary addition.

[Simsy]

I'm absolutely positive that he didn't mean anything but I think it was an unnecessary addition.

I don't think Simon's been counting either. Interesting thread though..

[wolfie66]

'Cos they can't dance?

[Barry]

'Cos they can't dance?

Well, if we can't jump!?

[Bigsoulman]

Well, if we can't jump!?

[jocko]

Also I dont think it helps when tossers like Jazzy B say the scene is racist wtf does he know .

Thats the funniest quote ever on here, so now its Jazzie B's fault, for a comment made 40 years after the birth of "scene", that the scene is full of middle aged white men reliving their youth. Mate you normally make a lot of sense on here but that one is the most bizarre ever.

And WTF is anyone going to see Jazzy B's comments for what they were, a relevant comment on working class North Of England in the 70's from a Londoner, he may be guilty of bullshitting but thats it, just think of his comment in the social context of the time can't you.

Calling Jazzy B a racist (I appreciate you haven't but lots of people on here do) just shows how out of touch with reality the large majority of people on "the scene" are.

And as for Simon's question, bizarre question 101, if it is so white then you aren't going to get the right answer here are you, why dont't you go and ask "The Black People".

Crazier and crazier world we live in.

[JOHNNYBETCHA]

I'm blamin Rod Stewart myself! oh and Ian Levine

[Simsy]

'Cos they can't dance?

Well, if we can't jump!?

Off topic, or apt?

[Guest]

Thats the funniest quote ever on here, so now its Jazzie B's fault, for a comment made 40 years after the birth of "scene", that the scene is full of middle aged white men reliving their youth. Mate you normally make a lot of sense on here but that one is the most bizarre ever.

And WTF is anyone going to see Jazzy B's comments for what they were, a relevant comment on working class North Of England in the 70's from a Londoner, he may be guilty of bullshitting but thats it, just think of his comment in the social context of the time can't you.

Calling Jazzy B a racist (I appreciate you haven't but lots of people on here do) just shows how out of touch with reality the large majority of people on "the scene" are.

And as for Simon's question, bizarre question 101, if it is so white then you aren't going to get the right answer here are you, why dont't you go and ask "The Black People".

Crazier and crazier world we live in.

No sorry I disagree with that summing up of Jazzy's dismissal of the Northern scene.

I don't see any slant on Simon's question (nice to be supporting you on that one mate!), it is a fair enough general enquiry and one which my Black partner asked me pretty quickly after I'd introduced her to the scene. There are indeed perfectly natural explanantions for this phenomenon and I'll add a contribution on those aspects shortly.

However, when it comes to Jazzy, I'm afraid I believe fully that those comments were meant maliciously and emanated as the result of an enormous ego being faced with trying to comment on something he actually knew very little about. Jazzy likes to be seen as 'THE man' bar none as regards the UK Soul scene and for him to have to try and speak articulately on a subject that was beyond his scope, was annoying and frustrating. He therefore resulted to spite and contempt. His claim that he was ever at 'those Northern Soul PARTIES' was absolute crap. 'Parties, I ask you!?' It was a lie as simple as that. He had very little or even NO experience of the Northern Scene and he could have simply said that and the question would have passed over without any affect. Amongst the lads I've been with over the years, there has always been a valued and well respected black contingenent and any of them would readily confirm how welcome they've always felt on the scene.

But Jazzy admit he was totally ignorant of a hugely influential part of British Soul's history?

Not Jazzy's style. Because he had no knowledge he responded negatively and spouted comments which were not only insulting to thousands of passionate Black Music fans, but had they been attributed to a white man, say talking about the Drum and Bass or ragga scene, would have drawn serious condemnation on racial basis. It does not make him a serial racist as implied here but it does make him guilty of comments made in a racist manner. It is important too that this event is covered every time it raises it's head because Jazzy is a big influence on a lot of people. But whatever his status, he owes the Northern Soul Scene a public apology which is long overdue. To imply that people like Ady Croadsell, Andy Rix and others who have worked so hard to ensure relatively unknown Black Artists get at least a semblance of creative acknowledgement for their work - are part of an intrinsically 'Racist' scene is disgraceful and beggars belief.

It is particularly annoying and insulting to people like me with children from mixed heritage groups and who have spent large periods of my adult life fighting the BNP and other Racist groups, both intellectually and physically whilst maintaining a 30 year plus passion for what I believe to be the greatest pop music (in the broadest sense) ever recorded. Never seen Jazzy out on the stump against the Fascists either.

Jazzy B is an interesting character. Caron Wheeler, the true voice of SOUL2SOUL made a very illuminating comment once. 'I've never even seen Jazzy playing a musical instrument, in fact I dont think he can play one'.

In which case, it's pretty amazing the way he is credited with constructing the music, behind the group is it not? I think that was Karen's way of stating don't believe all you hear but it was far as she was prepared to go.

Edited October 30, 2009 by chorleysoul

[jocko]

As usual CS too many words but too little meaning, and again lots of them about you and not the subject, and as usual you put words in peoples mouth.

As to why its not a relevant question here, read my words and you will see I am saying this is not the place to get a proportionate or informed answer, which makes any debate one sided and any conclusion flawed, an every day occurance I realise for many debaters on here, but on such a subject it wont take long for it to fall below interesting standards.

However skim reading I think you accentuate my point rather than disprove it, the one part of my point you bother to debate, he is a bulls**itter, not a racist, to call him racist would just ridicule all your other social consience claims.

And to say he has done nothing musically is f***ng laughable, but not untypical of the typical Northern Soul only fan, I do find it bizzare you of all people make the claim, given your claims to liking all sorts of black music.

Whether you like it or not Soul to Soul were genre defining and had impact on Black music generally, not just UK, thats an undebatable fact, because you don't like the individual is no cause to re-write history.

And I am off now, so last word on subject, other than to say given your wide claims and views it would be nice to know who you actually are, because you claim to know lots of people, but lots of people do not seem to know you. I am sure you would agree, given your profession, serious debate is far better when you actually know just how authentic your debater is, not denying your authenticity but it would be nice to know.

Jock O'Connor MBE

[Mark S]

Thats the funniest quote ever on here, so now its Jazzie B's fault, for a comment made 40 years after the birth of "scene", that the scene is full of middle aged white men reliving their youth. Mate you normally make a lot of sense on here but that one is the most bizarre ever.

And WTF is anyone going to see Jazzy B's comments for what they were, a relevant comment on working class North Of England in the 70's from a Londoner, he may be guilty of bullshitting but thats it, just think of his comment in the social context of the time can't you.

Calling Jazzy B a racist (I appreciate you haven't but lots of people on here do) just shows how out of touch with reality the large majority of people on "the scene" are.

And as for Simon's question, bizarre question 101, if it is so white then you aren't going to get the right answer here are you, why dont't you go and ask "The Black People".

Crazier and crazier world we live in.

He said the scene was racist which could alter/influence the veiws of people outside the scene I dont blame him for the small numbers of black people on the scene but his comments dont help .

The northern soul scene quite simply is not a black persons thing pretty much like heavy metal , punk & the rare sea shanty scenes .

[Barry]

Karen Wheeler

So pedantic of me C:

Caron Wheeler

[Davetay]

Thats the funniest quote ever on here, so now its Jazzie B's fault, for a comment made 40 years after the birth of "scene", that the scene is full of middle aged white men reliving their youth. Mate you normally make a lot of sense on here but that one is the most bizarre ever.

And WTF is anyone going to see Jazzy B's comments for what they were, a relevant comment on working class North Of England in the 70's from a Londoner, he may be guilty of bullshitting but thats it, just think of his comment in the social context of the time can't you.

Calling Jazzy B a racist (I appreciate you haven't but lots of people on here do) just shows how out of touch with reality the large majority of people on "the scene" are.

And as for Simon's question, bizarre question 101, if it is so white then you aren't going to get the right answer here are you, why dont't you go and ask "The Black People".

Crazier and crazier world we live in.

There were two secondary schools near where I lived in the 60s.

Total over 1000 kids, just 1 black kid nicknamed Butty (circa 1966-1970)

Guess what he went to Wigan etc.

There wasn't many black kids that didn't live in the cities back than.

As a genaral rule the black kids in the cities had there own scence etc, as where a black kid that grew up with whites hang around with whites.

I hope that makes some scense, in why the white kids outnumber the black kids.

Or at least one reason.

[Davetay]

No sorry I disagree with that summing up of Jazzy's dismissal of the Northern scene.

I don't see any slant on Simon's question (nice to be supporting you on that one mate!), it is a fair enough general enquiry and one which my Black partner asked me pretty quickly after I'd introduced her to the scene. There are indeed perfectly natural explanantions for this phenomenon and I'll add a contribution on those aspects shortly.

However, when it comes to Jazzy, I'm afraid I believe fully that those comments were meant maliciously and emanated as the result of an enormous ego being faced with trying to comment on something he actually knew very little about. Jazzy likes to be seen as 'THE man' bar none as regards the UK Soul scene and for him to have to try and speak articulately on a subject that was beyond his scope, was annoying and frustrating. He therefore resulted to spite and contempt. His claim that he was ever at 'those Northern Soul PARTIES' was absolute crap. 'Parties, I ask you!?' It was a lie as simple as that. He had very little or even NO experience of the Northern Scene and he could have simply said that and the question would have passed over without any affect. Amongst the lads I've been with over the years, there has always been a valued and well respected black contingenent and any of them would readily confirm how welcome they've always felt on the scene.

But Jazzy admit he was totally ignorant of a hugely influential part of British Soul's history?

Not Jazzy's style. Because he had no knowledge he responded negatively and spouted comments which were not only insulting to thousands of passionate Black Music fans, but had they been attributed to a white man, say talking about the Drum and Bass or ragga scene, would have drawn serious condemnation on racial basis. It does not make him a serial racist as implied here but it does make him guilty of comments made in a racist manner. It is important too that this event is covered every time it raises it's head because Jazzy is a big influence on a lot of people. But whatever his status, he owes the Northern Soul Scene a public apology which is long overdue. To imply that people like Ady Croadsell, Andy Rix and others who have worked so hard to ensure relatively unknown Black Artists get at least a semblance of creative acknowledgement for their work - are part of an intrinsically 'Racist' scene is disgraceful and beggars belief.

It is particularly annoying and insulting to people like me with children from mixed heritage groups and who have spent large periods of my adult life fighting the BNP and other Racist groups, both intellectually and physically whilst maintaining a 30 year plus passion for what I believe to be the greatest pop music (in the broadest sense) ever recorded. Never seen Jazzy out on the stump against the Fascists either.

Jazzy B is an interesting character. Karen Wheeler, the true voice of SOUL2SOUL made a very illuminating comment once. 'I've never even seen Jazzy playing a musical instrument, in fact I dont think he can play one'.

In which case, it's pretty amazing the way he is credited with constructing the music, behind the group is it not? I think that was Karen's way of stating don't believe all you hear but it was far as she was prepared to go.

I've got to admit that his quote on the TV, made me see him in a different light.

I loved SOUL-2-SOUL in the 80s/90s, I still like the music but the man?

[Guest]

As usual CS too many words but too little meaning, and again lots of them about you and not the subject, and as usual you put words in peoples mouth.

As to why its not a relevant question here, read my words and you will see I am saying this is not the place to get a proportionate or informed answer, which makes any debate one sided and any conclusion flawed, an every day occurance I realise for many debaters on here, but on such a subject it wont take long for it to fall below interesting standards.

However skim reading I think you accentuate my point rather than disprove it, the one part of my point you bother to debate, he is a bulls**itter, not a racist, to call him racist would just ridicule all your other social consience claims.

And to say he has done nothing musically is f***ng laughable, but not untypical of the typical Northern Soul only fan, I do find it bizzare you of all people make the claim, given your claims to liking all sorts of black music.

Whether you like it or not Soul to Soul were genre defining and had impact on Black music generally, not just UK, thats an undebatable fact, because you don't like the individual is no cause to re-write history.

And I am off now, so last word on subject, other than to say given your wide claims and views it would be nice to know who you actually are, because you claim to know lots of people, but lots of people do not seem to know you. I am sure you would agree, given your profession, serious debate is far better when you actually know just how authentic your debater is, not denying your authenticity but it would be nice to know.

Jock O'Connor MBE

Is that Massive Bloody Ego ????

[okehgaz]

There are not many black people on the scene?

Why?

I attend quiet a few blues events as well and the same applys.

[Guest]

As usual CS too many words but too little meaning, and again lots of them about you and not the subject, and as usual you put words in peoples mouth.

CS RESPONDS:

Personal stuff, no further contribution. Please point out where it's all about me other than to mention my Anti-Racist stand and that I've never once seen Jazzy engaging directly with Fascists? I think tht's fair comment being I am a Northern Soul fan and therefore possibly 'racist' by his definitions.

JOCKO:

As to why its not a relevant question here, read my words and you will see I am saying this is not the place to get a proportionate or informed answer, which makes any debate one sided and any conclusion flawed, an every day occurance I realise for many debaters on here, but on such a subject it wont take long for it to fall below interesting standards.

CS RESPONDS:

Ok, so you are now telling us we cannot debate any subject on here, because IN YOUR VIEW, you don't like some of the viewpoints expressed. Nor do I but that is what it is about. Conflicting viewpoints. If they do not interest you, why contribute? I find lots of the viewpoints that contradict mine very interesting, but then perhaps I am not up to your lofty standards of judgement. After all you have got an MBE.

JOCKO:

However skim reading I think you accentuate my point rather than disprove it, the one part of my point you bother to debate, he is a bulls**itter, not a racist, to call him racist would just ridicule all your other social consience claims.

CS RESPONDS:

Please see my concluding paragraph.

JOCKO:

And to say he has done nothing musically is f***ng laughable, but not untypical of the typical Northern Soul only fan, I do find it bizzare you of all people make the claim, given your claims to liking all sorts of black music.

Whether you like it or not Soul to Soul were genre defining and had impact on Black music generally, not just UK, thats an undebatable fact, because you don't like the individual is no cause to re-write history.

CHORLEYSOUL RESPONDS:

The 'typical Northern Soul fan?'

And just what would that be then? Sounds like a little Jazzy B type stereo-typing going on there, mate. There is no such thing. They come from all walks of life, all social classes and all races. Fact. You are way off beam.

I would ask anybody to please re-read my posting and point out where I have stated 'Jazzie B has never done anything musically'. So firstly you are accusing me of something I have not even claimed. I merely pointed out that Caron Wheeler hinted that Jazzy was not as heavily responsible for the musical composition of SOUL2SOUL as he always implies and that perhaps it was a little strange regarding all the credits. You'll have to take it up with her and ask her exactly what she meant by that remark. Personally I find that interesting in the same way I find debates about other areas of Soul Music which have thrown up such questions fascinating. As far as not liking him goes, I don't know him well enough to have an emotional overview. I just do not like what he said about this scene which was based in total ignorance and contempt. Just because he's a musical hero of yours and countless others, does not give him a license to unjustly condemn thousands of people he has never met as 'racist'. Ridiculous and arrogant mistake. Wish he'djust apologise for it. (By the way, yes I do have most of his records, inc lots of stuff produced for others.)

JOCKO:

And I am off now, so last word on subject, other than to say given your wide claims and views it would be nice to know who you actually are, because you claim to know lots of people, but lots of people do not seem to know you. I am sure you would agree, given your profession, serious debate is far better when you actually know just how authentic your debater is, not denying your authenticity but it would be nice to know.

Jock O'Connor MBE

CHORLEYSOUL RESPONDS:

A little bizarre to say the least. Because you don't know me, how am I supposed to tell you who I am, what do you want a list of everybody I know? A list of everybody I know on the Soul scene, or a list of all the people that you know who dont know me and so on and so on and what the hell has this got to do with this debate? If the 'lots of people' who I claim to know are people who say they don't know me, please tell me exactly who? Also, where is the list of all the 'lots of people' anyway? Strange.

Interesting though. First time I've ever seen anybody challenged on here as to regards who they know. As regards this exact subject, I used to have a Film/Video production company with MARK HILL AKA THE ARTFUL DODGER, multi-million Ivor Novello award winning Producer for CRAIG DAVID (Whose Dad is a good pal of mine)and dozens of top RnB/Pop artists. Mark worked with AARON SOUL the UK garage/soul singer, who I know well being his Mother PAULINE CATLIN, a gospel singer was also a friend of mine. She actually taught CARON WHEELER to sing. PAULINE worked as a Black Arts Local authority Officer and when my Brother and one of my best mates organised a music of black origin showcase for unknown young artists, these connections helped ensure that the guest of honour was none other than JAZZY B! (This was actually CRAIG DAVID'S first ever 'live' performance aged 14, other than youth club DJ spots etc) I am sure if you wish to track down MARK, AARON, CRAIG, PAULINE or anybody else they will confirm to you the truth of all that, now any specific further questions on my credibility or - your word - authenticity? Although that actually is the only time I ever will respond to that type of shot.

I think you need to read my post again mate. i was at pains to point out 'this does not make him a serial racist. but somebody who behaved in a racist manner'.

A lot of people do that at one or more individual moments of their lives, usually because they have reacted emotionally and not thought rationally about their actions or statements.

RICHARD CHORLEY (Most absolutely not a MEMBER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE, thank god.)

Edited October 29, 2009 by chorleysoul

[Guest aintgotit]

There are not many black people on the scene?

Why?

A considerably greater number attend at places like kings hall blackburn and the southport weekender (so im told), there more atention paid to contemporary music there , has that owt to do wi it?

[Naughty Boy]

There are not many black people on the scene?

Why?

Sheffield in the 70ts had a very good black following all top foo~ing lads too, a few of the lads are still about even today

Rob

[Guest dundeedavie]

calm down lads it's all personal opinions etc !!

for me (and it is just a personal opinion) "northern soul " isn't "black" music ...in that it's black music for white people , sanitised even

[Rbman]

All my black mates in the 70s were into funk and disco and 60s soul didn't float their boat.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Rbman

[Guest]

Sheffield in the 70ts had a very good black following all top foo~ing lads too, a few of the lads are still about even today

Rob

Same in Southampton in the 70s/80s. I still go out occasionally to do's with some of them.

[Guest soulboy]

One of my best mates on the scene was the one and only Pedro from wolverhampton ,What a great lad he was ,he would ring me 'get ready reevesy Ill be round in a bit 'we are off to newbury or some far flung place, he delivered posh motors for a merc garage in the west mids all over the uk,With our mate Monty off we would go in a top of the range merc he had borrowed with trade plates on how the hell we never got pulled Ill never know,

where ever we went some would know him a larger than life man with a great feel for the music having had a fair collection he decided to sell the lot,turning his back on oldies MODERN SOUL was the way forward, at times i would find some of it hard going but he kept at me, Now he could dance till his knees gave out,God I miss him Souling will never be the same for me with out him ,REST IN PEACE PED

Edited October 29, 2009 by soulboy

[Guest Perception]

I can't see what difference it makes.

Africa has millions of black people, but no good Soul music ever comes out of there.

Its to do with culture, and the United States had a brilliant music culture up till about 1980, then they just became as crap as everyone else!

[Jem Britttin]

There are not many black people on the scene?

Why?

Put simply, probably because as a ratio per capita there is not that many people into the music in this country and also percentage wise black people ( i assume you are reffering to people of west indian origin ) are still a minority population in this country.

I take your point though and do have a theory my Mother in law came to Britain in the mid 60s from the West Indies and bought along her record collection, current things that were being listened to in Her home country mainly Ska , Rocksteady etc. Her and her fellow expats used to organise parties in this country and listen to all this kind of stuff . creating their own scene. The music She liked was almost indiginous to her country so i suppose it helped in dealing with the inevitable homesick blues.

She was still young enough to latch on to Northern Soul when it took off but She didnt as She could not really identify with it and i think this strong sense of identity is passed on hence the next generation were more into reggae, dub, funk etc. and the next rap etc. American 60s/70s soul or as we phrase it Northern Soul was intended to appeal to a wider more affluent nation with different agendas to most West Indian people so i think it kinda went over their heads....thats all

Edited October 29, 2009 by Jem Brittin

[Steve G]

Went to a James Brown concert in London once, being "white" I was definately in a minority in the audience.

So def.something in what my learned colleague Martin says above.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Steve G

[Ted Massey]

Think Jem hit the nail on the head when i started going out with my misses in 1967 she lived in Antrobus Road right opposite the Plaza Handsworth B'ham there were loads of Jamacians living in that road but we never saw them at the Plaza which was mainly soul music, Plenty of blues parties in the houses thou

[Guest rasfoz]

To be fair 70s it was still first generation ect ect, keeping within commuinitys a few would cross over i guess but in general stick to what you knew or know, as for the rural side of it i was the only black kid at my school so no wonder i turned out a little diferent to our freind beresford barrington & went northern souling, all be it mid to late 80s. As for soul 2 soul i have everything they have done, also some of caron wheelers solo stuff i love it quite uplifting , but as for that interview jazzy might as well of been wearing a badge with COCK written on it as thats what he came across as.

[Guest dundeedavie]

i can't see the problem with Jazzie B having an opinion on what he FELT ... if that's what he FELT then the soul scene should be looking inwardly and not just to blame him ....

[Guest Beeks]

i can't see the problem with Jazzie B having an opinion on what he FELT ... if that's what he FELT then the soul scene should be looking inwardly and not just to blame him ....

Does anyone actually give a fuck what Jazzy B thinks?

Celebrate your mind...free your soul....

[Jem Britttin]

i can't see the problem with Jazzie B having an opinion on what he FELT ... if that's what he FELT then the soul scene should be looking inwardly and not just to blame him ....

Maybe I am missing the point here but ,is or was He ever into Northern Soul or the scene eg. attend events etc. cos surely to offer an opinion you would have to base it on some facts or something you had expierenced ,not just a feeling you may have.

[Guest dundeedavie]

Maybe I am missing the point here but ,is or was He ever into Northern Soul or the scene eg. attend events etc. cos surely to offer an opinion you would have to base it on some facts or something you had expierenced ,not just a feeling you may have.

i presumed he had attended , did trevor nelson not say the same thing ?

[Jem Britttin]

i presumed he had attended , did trevor nelson not say the same thing ?

Mate I honestly dont know I just would be suprised if he was that informed about the N.S. scene

[Guest Polyvelts]

In answer to the original question -there are a thousand possible answers, but I remember talking to a middle aged black guy in a bar in New York, me and my mate had been pumping money into the juke box that was full of motown classics, he asked me why 'you do you white boys love this old time music so much?' I didnt really have an answer but I do remember him saying that black people didnt cling onto it so much was because ' in general we dont have too much to be nostalgic about". It made sense then and unfortunately still makes sense now.

Rob

[Guest Beeks]

I do remember him saying that black people didnt cling onto it so much was because ' in general we dont have too much to be nostalgic about". It made sense then and unfortunately still makes sense now.

Rob

Great insight...and probably not far off the truth

[jocko]

I think you need to read my post again mate. i was at pains to point out 'this does not make him a serial racist. but somebody who behaved in a racist manner'.

A lot of people do that at one or more individual moments of their lives, usually because they have reacted emotionally and not thought rationally about their actions or statements.

RICHARD CHORLEY (Most absolutely not a MEMBER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE, thank god.)

Bloody hell, when did you update all that, earlier today most of that was not in there was it, again my tounge in cheek bits obviously weren't as obvious as they were to me but since you also answered the serious bits with thought I will respond, only tomorrow as off to have sex, after polishing my medal obviously!!

Edited October 29, 2009 by jocko

[Guest]

I think if you look back to the late 50's & early 60's although the Black immigrants of the time may not have been disriminated against to the extent of the US they were ghettoised and not integrated into main stream british civilisation.

Therefore the opportunities for black people to integrate with the white working classes of the time that were taking the black music from the states to their hearts were very few unless you were in the major urban connurbations.

I remember well at my school in a lancashire mining village in 1971 singing a song in assembly that went "over the seas there are little brown children", we simply didnt see them to integrate with at that time in the area I grew up in

A lot of my very very close mates happened to be coloured during my teenage years at the Casino and in the years since but I never saw them as anything other than my mates not as a colour, however, they must have constituted less than 5% of the people I came into contact with

So whilst the children of most black immigrants were discovering their own music, trends etc the white working class of the time who were in to soul music carried on oblivious to what was developing in the urban areas until such things as british funk, hip hop etc emerged with its own following.

At this point it was too late for any sort of real synergy to be found, the black culture looking forward trying to create new sounds and types of music and the white looking backward as in the main we still do today

Steve

[Godzilla]

off to have sex, after polishing my medal obviously!!

What's the difference Jocko?

[Guest spudmurphy]

there was a drastic lack of black people on the estate where i was draged up but we had no racism and went to all nighters together or danced to bob marley together etc happy days

[Maark]

i presumed he had attended , did trevor nelson not say the same thing ?

If I remember right, Trevor Nelson expressed 'concern' (my word not his) on going to a Soul do in Lancs based on his a) Southerness, b ) 60's Soul not quite being his bag and c) being a black face in an almost exclusively white clientele. I think he found the experience a positive one though. Have the programme on video somewhere.

I did ask a black girl at a soul do why there wasn't more black people into soul and she said what has already been stated in this thread. Namely that black people were into reggae and the like.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Maark

[dthedrug]

This is part of the point of why there is not many young people on the scene. I think it goes back to our own youth and a misconception that arises from youth sub-cultures at the end of the 6ts, and the way they have been interpreted in a negative way as a cop out to make a point of stereo typing individuals as racist & bigot's? As a teenager in 68 & 69 and with the social & educational methods used in the 50/6ts of individuals being made example of so others could achieve and other social changes: sex & drugs being more ever more the IN thing rather than being Straight, and also the factor of influence of our elder teens, in my case both sister and brother were original Mods* 63 & 65 are in particular exciting years to look at, my year was 67 and straight out of a kids home, with the anger and frustration of my childhood like quite a few people that I still know you were labeled as a delinquent, add that to issues in my live that have made an impact on me, such as 3 pm on Saturday at Upton Park the catalyst for the most dynamical change happened? basically on mass a united and untouchable attitude happened? with this came the violence and nonchalant disdain to anything that did not represent yourself, this included the "Old Bill" soft peace loving long hair types, students, Grebes and in particular the new HELLS ANGELS they were a target along with Homosexuals and so on Northerners and anything that was not West Ham if you fitted virtually every category going? However it is the Black v white issue that the press and later sub-cultures would aspire to?

Living in North Harts was the ideal location as my home town had nothing to offer, it was a standard practice to travel about to go dancing Luton Cambridge Bedford Stevenage and in my case the Royal in Totonham and as I always state Soho for the special nights, all Dance Halls in my area at that time were there for one reason only to clash and take over as our Dance-hall, it is strange to reflect on this attitude maybe that's why when I went "up north" the share absence of meaning less violence was really quite cool, However I have always kept my guard up, especially if you were someone known to have Gear on them. However to my knowledge and as stated my comments are factual as this sub-culture was mine not a little kids point of view? that's another story based on "skinheads" not a team I would use to describe the time at all.

the Black & White issue? throughout the 6ts especially on the (MOD) Scene the real places to go were City centre night life a City that had already a multicultural society emerging, in particular I could mention many Cities but 2 stand out from the rest although Sheffield and Leicester come to mind (my brother went to the Night Owl) but London and Manchester are the 2 of most interest to try and answer your question LONDON all things about the Mod Scene and Club Scene have been covered so much so, that I have met people who know more about the places I used to frequent than me and they are 10 years younger??. Once again there were some great clubs in SOHO and indeed in South London Ram Jam Club was the best The Upper Cut in Forest Gate with its GO-GO Girls (nice touch Billy) West London's many Shebeens and Jamaican Clubs, in fact in all that time 68 to 73 the ratio of Black to White was always higher for Black people I did whiteness push ups but no racial tension at all maybe it because there were no issues of segregation it was party Night, as a kid of 17 I did get hustled a few times but that's what happens, most clubs played a mixture of black and white music but the atmosphere was always good the only interruption came from the 3.30 to 4.30 Old Bill raids and there dreaded Black Marias? and if you were pulled in a night in the cells of West End Central Cop Shop was a experience you would not want a a good kicking in was at the reception good days?? So in London the clubs had a mixture and balance, in Manchester when on the few times I was at the Wheel Club the Ratio was clearly not the same even though the Wheel had a almost Identical music policy as the Flamingo, of course the answer was not a racist one its that at that time more people from the Win-dies lived in London, in fact I wonder How many Jews went to the Flamingo compared to the Twisted Wheel and of course it was London & Brum that had the top Jamaican Clubs and yes I know Nottingham had good clubs? however as the rare soul scene developed in the North (of Bedford} it is clear that the black & white did not exist in the way or context of London.

To conclude the case is one of demographics and by 74 I had stopped going to the Jamaican Clubs and there was a unfriendly welcome to most white people as the Roots music started to happen. As for Black & White Issues all I can state when I was 17 I used racist words to black people with out considering the impact on them, but hey it was the late 6ts and I was a poorly educated angry 17 year old, and yes I did go "PAKI" bashing as it was called, however times move on at the Torch reunion attended with my Son in law he is Indian from his blood roots but solid British through and through and I am proud of him to be my son?

this is a excellent and mature question and I hope it is not ignored again? and gets some input perhaps from a younger individual?

DAVE WHUFC