Disturbing Trend

[Little-stevie]

This isn't only confined to Soul Nights, a major Weekender is now that reliant on bar sales to keep it afloat, there are as many free passes as you like provided you bring along a bunch of mates who can drink enough ale to sink a battleship to show "Bar sales"! This is all well and good but where are the "True Souls"?

What a cheap

shot from the very two banned from the very weekender they are talking about !

If anybody creates bad politics it's you two!

Mr Roberts taking the moral high ground ...

Sorry back to topic please... Its about free events..

[Guest]

Nice to see another topic that highlights how unified & supportive the scene really is

[Shsdave]

Mr Roberts taking the moral high ground ...

Sorry back to topic please... Its about free events..

Glad I'm unlikely to ever be on the same plane as him..............he'd probably try & hijack that as well !

[dthedrug]

I CAN,T MAKE SCENCE OF THE LOGIC IN THIS POSTING:-1.FREE NIGHTS ARE PUT ON FOR ONE REASON ONLY? SO SOMEONE GETS A CHANCE TO DJ? BECAUSE HE/SHE WOULD NEVER GET PICKED TO DJ? IS THIS FOR REAL OR ARE YOU JOKEING? PLEASE TELL ME YOU ARE,

2. I KNOW WHY I DONT GET TO DJ THESE DAYS, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RECORDS AS SUCH (however there is a case for argument and debate if you spend pot.s of cash with certain dealers can accelerate you to your 15 minutes of fame) WITH ME AFTER 37 YEARS ON THE SCENE, I WILL NEVER BE LIKE MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON THE SCENE, AS TO MANY I STILL REPROSENT THE OLD SCHOOL ATTITUDE OF THE 68/71 PERIOD, AS SUCH, I REMEMBER QUITE CLEARLY "PEP" BEING P***ED OF BECAUSE I PLAYED "PAINT YOURSELF INTO A CORNER" AND FOLLOWED IT WITH BESSIE BANKS "I CAN,T MAKE IT" UK VERVE DEMO???A FEW WEEKS LATER, I TURNED UP TO DJ, GOT BLANKED OUT AND TED TOOK OVER? AT LEAST IT WAS A SOMEONE RATHER THAN ANOUTHER DJ WAITING ALMOST HUMILITATED TRYING TO GET A FEW ££QUID FROM HIM?

WHO MAKES THE RULES:-OK IF YOU HAVE RUN AN EVENT LIKE THE 6ts 100 CLUB DOES, IF YOUR NAME IS ADY C, HE HAS THE RIGHT TO PICK AND CHOSE RIGHTFULY SO AS CAN I OFFER ANY THING NEW TO JUSTIFY A 45 MIN SLOT, THEY NO I CANT SO THIS IS THE 1ST RULE CAN YOU BOX CLEVER AND GIVE THE PROMOTOR A GOOD REASON TO ASK YOU TO SPIN 45s.

2nd IS THE VENUE A MUST ATTEND FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS, (a)YOU LIKE TO TALK AND BUY&SELL RECORDS? OR (b)IS THE EVENT IN THE TRUE SPIRIT OF THE RARE SOUL SCENE BY THIS I MEAN CAN YOU REMEMBER THE 1ST 2 MONTHS ATTENDING NORTHERN SOUL FUNCTIONS, FOR 99% OF US IT WAS NOT BECAUSE YOU HAD A GREAT COLLECTION OF RARE SOUL AND IF BY MAGIC THE RARE SOUL SCENE EXISTED AND YOU NEVER KNEW THAT ALL THESE PEOPLE LIKE THE SAME RECORDS AS YOU? ONLY 1% OF SOUL GOERS WENT TO ALL NIGHTERS BECAUSE FOR PEOPLE MY "AGE YOUTH SUB CULTURES" DID EXIST AND FOR MOST WORKING CLASS PEOPLE THE BLACK MUSIC SCENE WAS A PLACE TO MUST ATTEND AND NOT TO BE FEARED?**PLACES LIKE THE NIGHT OWL, TWISTED WHEEL, THE PINK FLAMINGO CLUB AND THE TILES CLUB ON OXFORD STREET, WERE ONLY ATTENDED BY WHAT USED TO BE CALLED "FACES" AND IF YOU DONT NO WHAT A "FACE" MEANS TO PUT IT IN BABY TALK! A VILLAN OF CLASS AND A MAN OF REPUTATION, THE WHEEL WAS FULL OF IT THE NORTHERN ELETE, LOTS OF STYLE AND ONE UPMENSHIP, TERMALOLAGY THAT WAS HARD TO PENATRATE AFTER ALL THE WHEEL WAS A PLCE A BIT LIKE TOTENHAM A 4BY2 CLUB WHICH ATTRACTED A FEW NON MANX TO ATTEND, AND CAPE & DUBES WAS ON YOUR MIND NOT SELLING RECORDS, THIS WAS THE TREND THAT THE NORTHERN SOUL SCENE WAS FROM 68 TO 75, POEPLE WHO FELT SPECIAL AND IT WAS YOUR CLUB AND KNOW ONE NEW WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT? PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF AND MICK SMITH, THE BIRDS NEST CROWD BEFORD & CAMBRIDGE AND OF COURS NORTHHAMPTONSHIRE SOUTH LIECESTERSHIRE HAD BEEN DJING IN 71/2 BUT I CANT REMEMBER MICK WANTING TO BE A HIGHLAND ROOM DJ** IT,S A BIT LIKE WHEN YOU ARE A KID PRETENDING TO PLAY AIR GUITAR, WE ARE ALL ALOWED TO DREAM?

MY RULES ARE INKEEPING WITH 2 MAGER FACTO,S KEEP TO YOUR FREE CHILD IF YOU CAN AND DO WHAT I HAVE DONE, HAVE YOUR OWN SOUND SYSTEM. AS SUCH I COULD TAKE IT TO ANY PLACE A RUN A SOUL OR REGGEA NIGHT AND MAKE AS MUCH OR AS LITTLE AS I LIKE, IN FACT THIS IS WHAT I ATTENDED TO DO THIS YEAR TO CELABRATE 1969, AND THE SPIRIT OF 69 THAT WILL ALWAYS BE ME, IN SUMMERY SEX DRUGS RARE SOUL WITH A CRIP PLATTER OF REGGAE, AND THAT WAS THE RECAPEE LAST SATURDAY IN TUNSTALL, WOULD I WANT TO PLAY RECORDS WHEN A DJ LINE UP CONSISTED OF A SOULFUL KEV ROBERTS BLUE MAX DAVE EVERSON NIEL RUSHTON ALLEN DAY AND ALL THE REST, YES I TOOK A RECORD BOX AS A LIFE LONG MEMBER OF THE ONE OF THE WRIST CLUB WITH PAM (palm of me hand> always faithful) MAKES ME NOT A TOSSER BET A TEASER! DUE TO MY HEALTH DECLINE AND CERTAIN NAMLES TOSSERS IT,S BEEN THE WORST YEAR OF MY LIFE SO FAR BORSTAL WAS BETTER, BUT IN LINE WITH PAUL DONNALY APPRAOCH HOPEFULLY I CAN WITH A FEW HELPERS< I CAN,T LIFT MY OWN EQIPMENT, PUT ON A FEW OLD SCHOOL/UPPERCUT EVENTS AND IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A GO DJING BE MY GUEST, AS IT TAKES 1 PERSON TO BE THE SOUND ENGINEER AND THATS ME. MY CONCEPT IS QUITE SIMPLE FIND A PUB SET THE SYSTEM UP AND PLAY GREAT SOUNDS AND SEE IF YOU CAN FIND ME? JUST THE WAY IT USED TO BE RUN, PAUL AND THE WHOLE GANG FOUND OUT AT ONE TIME WE ARE NOT INFERIER POEPLE TO THE SELF ELECTED LETS TALK MONEY FIRST THE OPPERSIT IS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT IF WE PAY YOU DO US A FAVOUR AND PUT SOME SINCERITY IN YOUR DJING, i FOR ONE HAVE NEVER SEEN DAVE EVERSON THAT GOOD AND KEV ROBERTS WITH ALLEN DAY, BLINDING, AND REAL. AND THIS IS FROM ME, MAYBE THIS PAIRING UP SHOULD BE ENCOURAGE I KNOW MICK HAS ALWAYS DONE IT MICK & BUTCH GREAT BUT WE WILL LEARN?

MAYBE MICK AND SMOKEY, THATS A TRUE TORCH DUE OF OPPERSITS BUT IT WOULD ENTERTAIN ME?... I SHOULD WRITE A BOOK OR A BLOG? A BLOG? WILL A GROWN UP TEACH ME IT PLEASE? WHAT THE F**K IS A BLOG? A DONT TELL ME IT MY OWN PERSONAL INNTENET PAGE IF IT IS CALL IT "PIP" NOT "BLOG"?

MY TMG DEMO SPOT FINISHED WITH "INDIANA WANTS ME" TMG 763** AND THE PLAYED SOME RED AND WHITES STARTED WITH TMG 555 AND ENDED WITH A MINT- TMG 509.

DAVE "THE NIGHT OWL" KILWORTH.

[Rob Wigley]

I CAN,T MAKE SCENCE OF THE LOGIC IN THIS POSTING:-1.FREE NIGHTS ARE PUT ON FOR ONE REASON ONLY? SO SOMEONE GETS A CHANCE TO DJ? BECAUSE HE/SHE WOULD NEVER GET PICKED TO DJ? IS THIS FOR REAL OR ARE YOU JOKEING? PLEASE TELL ME YOU ARE,

2. I KNOW WHY I DONT GET TO DJ THESE DAYS, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RECORDS AS SUCH (however there is a case for argument and debate if you spend pot.s of cash with certain dealers can accelerate you to your 15 minutes of fame) WITH ME AFTER 37 YEARS ON THE SCENE, I WILL NEVER BE LIKE MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON THE SCENE, AS TO MANY I STILL REPROSENT THE OLD SCHOOL ATTITUDE OF THE 68/71 PERIOD, AS SUCH, I REMEMBER QUITE CLEARLY "PEP" BEING P***ED OF BECAUSE I PLAYED "PAINT YOURSELF INTO A CORNER" AND FOLLOWED IT WITH BESSIE BANKS "I CAN,T MAKE IT" UK VERVE DEMO???A FEW WEEKS LATER, I TURNED UP TO DJ, GOT BLANKED OUT AND TED TOOK OVER? AT LEAST IT WAS A SOMEONE RATHER THAN ANOUTHER DJ WAITING ALMOST HUMILITATED TRYING TO GET A FEW ££QUID FROM HIM?

WHO MAKES THE RULES:-OK IF YOU HAVE RUN AN EVENT LIKE THE 6ts 100 CLUB DOES, IF YOUR NAME IS ADY C, HE HAS THE RIGHT TO PICK AND CHOSE RIGHTFULY SO AS CAN I OFFER ANY THING NEW TO JUSTIFY A 45 MIN SLOT, THEY NO I CANT SO THIS IS THE 1ST RULE CAN YOU BOX CLEVER AND GIVE THE PROMOTOR A GOOD REASON TO ASK YOU TO SPIN 45s.

2nd IS THE VENUE A MUST ATTEND FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS, (a)YOU LIKE TO TALK AND BUY&SELL RECORDS? OR (b)IS THE EVENT IN THE TRUE SPIRIT OF THE RARE SOUL SCENE BY THIS I MEAN CAN YOU REMEMBER THE 1ST 2 MONTHS ATTENDING NORTHERN SOUL FUNCTIONS, FOR 99% OF US IT WAS NOT BECAUSE YOU HAD A GREAT COLLECTION OF RARE SOUL AND IF BY MAGIC THE RARE SOUL SCENE EXISTED AND YOU NEVER KNEW THAT ALL THESE PEOPLE LIKE THE SAME RECORDS AS YOU? ONLY 1% OF SOUL GOERS WENT TO ALL NIGHTERS BECAUSE FOR PEOPLE MY "AGE YOUTH SUB CULTURES" DID EXIST AND FOR MOST WORKING CLASS PEOPLE THE BLACK MUSIC SCENE WAS A PLACE TO MUST ATTEND AND NOT TO BE FEARED?**PLACES LIKE THE NIGHT OWL, TWISTED WHEEL, THE PINK FLAMINGO CLUB AND THE TILES CLUB ON OXFORD STREET, WERE ONLY ATTENDED BY WHAT USED TO BE CALLED "FACES" AND IF YOU DONT NO WHAT A "FACE" MEANS TO PUT IT IN BABY TALK! A VILLAN OF CLASS AND A MAN OF REPUTATION, THE WHEEL WAS FULL OF IT THE NORTHERN ELETE, LOTS OF STYLE AND ONE UPMENSHIP, TERMALOLAGY THAT WAS HARD TO PENATRATE AFTER ALL THE WHEEL WAS A PLCE A BIT LIKE TOTENHAM A 4BY2 CLUB WHICH ATTRACTED A FEW NON MANX TO ATTEND, AND CAPE & DUBES WAS ON YOUR MIND NOT SELLING RECORDS, THIS WAS THE TREND THAT THE NORTHERN SOUL SCENE WAS FROM 68 TO 75, POEPLE WHO FELT SPECIAL AND IT WAS YOUR CLUB AND KNOW ONE NEW WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT? PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF AND MICK SMITH, THE BIRDS NEST CROWD BEFORD & CAMBRIDGE AND OF COURS NORTHHAMPTONSHIRE SOUTH LIECESTERSHIRE HAD BEEN DJING IN 71/2 BUT I CANT REMEMBER MICK WANTING TO BE A HIGHLAND ROOM DJ** IT,S A BIT LIKE WHEN YOU ARE A KID PRETENDING TO PLAY AIR GUITAR, WE ARE ALL ALOWED TO DREAM?

MY RULES ARE INKEEPING WITH 2 MAGER FACTO,S KEEP TO YOUR FREE CHILD IF YOU CAN AND DO WHAT I HAVE DONE, HAVE YOUR OWN SOUND SYSTEM. AS SUCH I COULD TAKE IT TO ANY PLACE A RUN A SOUL OR REGGEA NIGHT AND MAKE AS MUCH OR AS LITTLE AS I LIKE, IN FACT THIS IS WHAT I ATTENDED TO DO THIS YEAR TO CELABRATE 1969, AND THE SPIRIT OF 69 THAT WILL ALWAYS BE ME, IN SUMMERY SEX DRUGS RARE SOUL WITH A CRIP PLATTER OF REGGAE, AND THAT WAS THE RECAPEE LAST SATURDAY IN TUNSTALL, WOULD I WANT TO PLAY RECORDS WHEN A DJ LINE UP CONSISTED OF A SOULFUL KEV ROBERTS BLUE MAX DAVE EVERSON NIEL RUSHTON ALLEN DAY AND ALL THE REST, YES I TOOK A RECORD BOX AS A LIFE LONG MEMBER OF THE ONE OF THE WRIST CLUB WITH PAM (palm of me hand> always faithful) MAKES ME NOT A TOSSER BET A TEASER! DUE TO MY HEALTH DECLINE AND CERTAIN NAMLES TOSSERS IT,S BEEN THE WORST YEAR OF MY LIFE SO FAR BORSTAL WAS BETTER, BUT IN LINE WITH PAUL DONNALY APPRAOCH HOPEFULLY I CAN WITH A FEW HELPERS< I CAN,T LIFT MY OWN EQIPMENT, PUT ON A FEW OLD SCHOOL/UPPERCUT EVENTS AND IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A GO DJING BE MY GUEST, AS IT TAKES 1 PERSON TO BE THE SOUND ENGINEER AND THATS ME. MY CONCEPT IS QUITE SIMPLE FIND A PUB SET THE SYSTEM UP AND PLAY GREAT SOUNDS AND SEE IF YOU CAN FIND ME? JUST THE WAY IT USED TO BE RUN, PAUL AND THE WHOLE GANG FOUND OUT AT ONE TIME WE ARE NOT INFERIER POEPLE TO THE SELF ELECTED LETS TALK MONEY FIRST THE OPPERSIT IS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT IF WE PAY YOU DO US A FAVOUR AND PUT SOME SINCERITY IN YOUR DJING, i FOR ONE HAVE NEVER SEEN DAVE EVERSON THAT GOOD AND KEV ROBERTS WITH ALLEN DAY, BLINDING, AND REAL. AND THIS IS FROM ME, MAYBE THIS PAIRING UP SHOULD BE ENCOURAGE I KNOW MICK HAS ALWAYS DONE IT MICK & BUTCH GREAT BUT WE WILL LEARN?

MAYBE MICK AND SMOKEY, THATS A TRUE TORCH DUE OF OPPERSITS BUT IT WOULD ENTERTAIN ME?... I SHOULD WRITE A BOOK OR A BLOG? A BLOG? WILL A GROWN UP TEACH ME IT PLEASE? WHAT THE F**K IS A BLOG? A DONT TELL ME IT MY OWN PERSONAL INNTENET PAGE IF IT IS CALL IT "PIP" NOT "BLOG"?

MY TMG DEMO SPOT FINISHED WITH "INDIANA WANTS ME" TMG 763** AND THE PLAYED SOME RED AND WHITES STARTED WITH TMG 555 AND ENDED WITH A MINT- TMG 509.

DAVE "THE NIGHT OWL" KILWORTH.

Interesting Post Dave,

I suspect the threat has drifted off topic a little since some ill-informed and factually false comments earlier on in the thread.

I also suspect there are not enough people in your neck of the woods Dave for this ever to become a problem for you-Free nights impacting on a regular charging event-that is.

The worry for a promoter of a regular local night in the North is keeping his or her crowd there and happy month after month, without someone setting out to wreck the night by opening up "Free Nights " either side of the regular venue and thus diluting the crowd.

Around 10 to 12 years ago people started to re-discover the Scene, at that time Working mens clubs would still be doing Bingo, Cabaret and all the usual stuff over the weekend. A Northern soul night would not even get a look in !

To get a decent room with a good dancefloor would cost £250 to hire at least.

You could never get them on Saturdays due to weddings etc

However, with 2.5 million unemployed, baby boomers spending their time and money abroad and the rise in half pint pensioners in the clubs hitting their 70s, many places are struggling to survive.

The club culture has changed for ever in the UK, its gone. Its down to a whole wealth of factors discussed many times on SS. (Smoke bans, cheap supermarket booze,etc) Many great clubs have closed in our area (Mainy Miners welfares, Railway Clubs etc) these will NEVER return, the ones which remain are trawling their nets around for business ideas, Northern Soul seems to fit the bill at the moment. They see a rival club with 200 people in drinking, dancing and spending money and think "we'll have some of that"--get the local Soul fan in (CDs and pressings mainly the order of the day-lets face it they'll never phone Butch up!) and away they go.

However this IMPACTS on the original nights where the promoters are generally witnessing a down turn in numbers and where the hire charge still remains in place. The club moans that the bar take is down, puts the hire charge up (greed) and its a slippery slope down to the closure of the original club. This leaves the Free night to plod along, same stuff week after week , month after month until it too disappears up its own Arse leaving the town with No regular night.

Soul Nights are like buses, you wait 9 months for one in your area and then 3 turn up all at the same time !

So the point to this thread is--is it happening in your area? are you bothered ?

Is it a good or bad thing ? or is some of it a deliberate tactic by certain promoters to scupper established nights so they can muscle in?

As earlier in the thread, the next area to be hit is Notts-mark my words !

Hope you're enjoying this as much as we are !

R & K

Edited October 28, 2009 by Karen and Rob Wigley

[Wrongcrowd]

IMO....I can really only see free nights impacting established nights were the music policy is the same, and generally an oldies, safe plays night....the differentiator then become the cost of the night out.. Otherwise punters with a more progressive taste are a lot more savvy and selective...travelling for the DJ line up and music policy, and then entry cost is not a primary concern..........

[Guest BigPaul]

Hows things Rob,

Interesting thread mate.

Be nice to see you n Karen at The Attic next month 7th, only 3 of the Queens English

and Ted Massey ta Boot

Shameless Bump

Be Good

Best

Paul

[KevH]

As a Notts lad myself I see where your coming from Rob and I'm a bit suprised that a few of the Notts promoters who were online last night didn't pick up on what was being said. As I've said before, as a specialist night we don't really feel threatened by the free night culture, as any of the attendees of such may look for something a little deeper than what these nights offer and away we go. If I was however a promoter of a handbag kicking night I maybe a little concerned. Although you say these free night people would never call someone like Butch to DJ at such an event, looking at past history and the people who have responded to this thread, I really wouldn't be that surprised.

Don't worry John,the theme of this thread is not lost on some .Butch in the Notts area - whatever next?

[Rob Wigley]

Hows things Rob,

Interesting thread mate.

Be nice to see you n Karen at The Attic next month 7th, only 3 of the Queens English

and Ted Massey ta Boot

Shameless Bump

Be Good

Best

Paul

Long overdue a visit Paul (and gang) Is it Free ? or can we pay double ?

Rob

[Rob Wigley]

Don't worry John,the theme of this thread is not lost on some .Butch in the Notts area - whatever next?

Glad to see you have your "reading between the lines" glasses on Kev !

ted will be opening "The Golden box" then !

we'll see what we can do

Rob

[phillyDaveG]

Northern soulies - the only people in the entire world who would be unhappy getting something for nothing!

[Kev Moore]

Putting any kind of free night on a Friday or Saturday evening (barring Birthdays/Weddings) smacks of people desperate to DJ who can't get bookings elsewhere to me...

I remember a few years back when our kid Dave Moore/Hitsville put on a totally free night at The Sparrow Hawk in Burnley. Great line up of guest dj's/collecters- incl.Timothy Brown/Rob Thomas etc. And Dave flew into Lancashire from Praque or somewhere to oversee events. Don't think it was desperation though. Some of the rarest vinyl played-all OVO and a splattering of semi knowns . People were complaining they weren't hearing Frankie Beverly and were asking for Little Queenie.

Some people are sooooo hard to please.

Kev

[Guest the dukester]

I do a free entry Soul Night at The Newlands in Scarborough every now and then, this is because the owners put a lot into our Scooter Club and its good to put somethng back.

So the crap comments about "Free Nights are for DJ's who dont get asked to do anything else" are a load of borrax!! There aint enough weekends in the year to fit all work in !!!

Like the comment previously said "Its only the Soul Scene that would moan about something for nothing"...........

[Rbman]

Is it really a "Disturbing Trend"?..... I can't remember the last soul event i went to that I got in for free...I think there should be lots more starting with Lifeline on Saturday

[Rob Wigley]

Anyone else seen this ? Just right for your local free night !

Got "The Snake?"= Yes I have the rare one with two heads"

Edited October 28, 2009 by Karen and Rob Wigley

[Davetay]

I remember a few years back when our kid Dave Moore/Hitsville put on a totally free night at The Sparrow Hawk in Burnley. Great line up of guest dj's/collecters- incl.Timothy Brown/Rob Thomas etc. And Dave flew into Lancashire from Praque or somewhere to oversee events. Don't think it was desperation though. Some of the rarest vinyl played-all OVO and a splattering of semi knowns . People were complaining they weren't hearing Frankie Beverly and were asking for Little Queenie.

Some people are sooooo hard to please.

Kev

Ya Kev, that was a good night.

In fact there were quite a few good nights there, remember Greety doing a good set there as well.

Dave.

[Guest spudmurphy]

the landlord of our local boozer graham lee is a soulie and scooter lad from circa 76 he puts a doo on once a month for all the local crowd he has brian walker djing ex wheel original dj and its a great small local doo and its free to anyone these kind of things have gone on round stockport forever and have been good and bad so whats the problem. if youve got a event and the music policy is appealing to the crowd your after theyll be there if something better is going on down the road your up against it. the problem is as i see it is to many events and to many djs

[Guest Biz]

Gutted, I drink my body weight most events and aint been given a free pass for fook all

[Guest alan bentley]

Debbie - Everyone would like something for nothing, but i would have to agree with Incognito, the door prices are very good, as i have friends on the 40s & 50s scene & the average door price for some of the venues they visit is £8 to £10

We will travel for a good night!

Or we go to our regular venues that we know will be playing what we want

hi,id like to reply also,and agree on paying,im in a 50,s band,and paying £8-£10,is only normal at one venue,that i know of,and the reason is ,the price of the bands.some charge £1,000.who pays?.the punters,they ask for these bands.i personally would not book these bands ,therefore they would be forced to reduce there fees.we don,t charge the earth,so why should others.but soul is my passion,and i will be attending the empress ballroom on sat.31st,last time was awesome,brilliantly run,great d.j,s,this one will be the same.